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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 11:03:10 AM
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Liveloved
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O thank you all for your honest sharing and personal examination on this topic. Sunnymom, your post is invaluable! Thank you.
quote:
sunnymom
We should stop looking to our society to define how we should rear our children. The Bible IMO is clear that there is a time for a child to be a child, protected and nurtured, but then the child becomes an adult (in Jewish tradition this time is 12-13) and begins to take on adult responsibility, such as learning the family trade, taking care of the household and children, etc... Jesus Christ as a 12 year old boy survived and thrived without mom and dad for more than three days alone in the city. If He indeed is our example, then why isn't it our goal for our kids to be able to do that?
Self esteem and confidence does not come from people telling you what a wonderful person you are, but from a sense of accomplishment and the exercise of virtues such as generosity, sacrifice, compassion, and a work ethic. (2Peter 1:5-8, James 1:3-4)
This is so beautiful. I think for many the scriptures are just another textbook instead of leading them into a vital relationship with Jesus, Who desires to live His wonderful will out of us. Only by surrendering to Him and loving Him in this way, will we allow His word to be become our life. And then these things aren't something we 'do', but who we are.
And SurpassingPeace hit the nail on the head when she went to the heart.quote:
SurpassingPeace
I think it all comes down to where the heart of the parent is. In order to raise my child to be a responsible, competent adult, they need to be taught to do housework, cook, bills, basic child care, understand a little car maintenance, etc. If I am giving them tasks and chores to further their growth in personal responsibility, how to function in a family, time managment, etc. then I am doing my job. But if I am dumping off more chores on them because I am unable to handle what I am responsible for or because I am poor at time managment and can never so no to outside committments, etc. then I am failing my child.
But it is beyond teaching. It comes down to the motive behind all we do, the heart. And a servant's heart is borne of God. Your posts have humbled me and made me realize it is my part to pray more for these moms who I see who don't have that kind of heart (or it is not apparent).
quote:
sunnymom
Bottom line, it's a shame when adults are ignorant of the basics of childcare and household organization/maintenance, have trouble finding and holding a job, and don't want to take care of the family because then they won't have time to watch Dancing with the Stars or go shopping or play Xbox. What's worse- not being a fully responsible adult allows the world to blaspheme the name of God. (Titus 2:5) This training begins during childhood, and IMO should become more intense and focused around age 10, so that by the time a young person is 15-16, they can be productive and responsible for themselves.
Perhaps we all need to commit to pray more for the parents in our midst. Lord, help me.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 11:19:45 AM
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mamajennleigh
Posts: 980
Joined: 12/6/2007
From: Fuquay-Varina, NC
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quote:
sunnymom
Bottom line, it's a shame when adults are ignorant of the basics of childcare and household organization/maintenance, have trouble finding and holding a job, and don't want to take care of the family because then they won't have time to watch Dancing with the Stars or go shopping or play Xbox. What's worse- not being a fully responsible adult allows the world to blaspheme the name of God. (Titus 2:5) This training begins during childhood, and IMO should become more intense and focused around age 10, so that by the time a young person is 15-16, they can be productive and responsible for themselves.
I will admit that I have failed miserably with my 16 year old in this area. He bore most of the brunt of my years of sickness, and today he is irresponsible, terrible with money, and he is impulsive to the point that if he found himself anywhere for 3 days, I don't know if he could survive. We did not enforce responsibilities with him when he was younger, he rebelled and due to my sickness, I found it easier just to ignore him and do it myself.
I'm trying very hard not to make those same mistakes with my younger 3.
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 11:57:45 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Not having read all the posts....
I come from a family with 4 kids (relatively "small", imo), and I am expecting my 4th as well. When I was 16, I was cooking nearly all the family meals, every night. That was a great thing, and not a burdensome responsibility at all. All of us were expected to pull our weight in the household, and we had a lot more responsibility than our peers did, and we have all benefited from that.
Even if God doesn't give us any more children beyond 4, my children will *work* as part of our family. I do believe it is the parents responsibility to provide food and shelter, and more importantly love and affection. It is the parents responsibility to make sure the household is running smoothly and the family is functional. However I don't believe it's the parents responsibility to martyr themselves and wash every dish, or cook every meal. In fact, I think parents are responsible to make sure their children know how to do these things, and do them well and with diligence, before they leave the home.
Actually, because we are city folk and there's not a whole lot of work involved in our lives, I've been thinking about sending my boys out to my friend's farm in the summers. They only have two boys, and even though they are only 4 and 6 years old, they are learning to work, and learning to enjoy work. Both boys get up early mornings to help with milking the cows, and are unhappy every Sunday when she keeps them in because she doesn't want to have to bathe them just before church. 
_____________________________
 Moo
The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 12:49:42 PM
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catlady11
Posts: 110
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quote:
I am expecting my 4th
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 4:50:35 PM
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CMT8808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
What I have observed in some of the larger families is not what I had the blessing to live. Instead I see mothers straddling their children (and especially oldest daughters) with the responsibilities of childcare and housekeeping. It is a way of freeing herself of duties she has become burdened by and is, in turn, burdening her child/children. There is not a servant's heart or a ministering to anyone outside the home.
I hate even expressing this but it is what I am seeing and it makes me sad for the children. My goddaughter is one of them. I recently took her on an outing and one of the booths had balloons that were twisted into animal shapes. She would not/could not take one. "My mom won't allow me to have one of these because they're not safe for the younger ones." I could have cried for her. She's a child! And at nine she should be able to have fun. She has her whole life to 'be responsible' for others. I guess I see this as a situation like the one stellaluna grew up in.
So I guess my reason in asking the question is to just prompt thinking about the choices we are making and how they affect others and whether they are the choices the Lord would have us make.
LL~
You will not like this post, and I apologize:
It is not just large families, but dysfunctional ones.
God bless you
CMT
I edited because I did not need to be discriptive
< Message edited by CMT8808 -- 10/10/2009 6:10:14 PM >
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 4:58:34 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
quote:
sunnymom
Bottom line, it's a shame when adults are ignorant of the basics of childcare and household organization/maintenance, have trouble finding and holding a job, and don't want to take care of the family because then they won't have time to watch Dancing with the Stars or go shopping or play Xbox. What's worse- not being a fully responsible adult allows the world to blaspheme the name of God. (Titus 2:5) This training begins during childhood, and IMO should become more intense and focused around age 10, so that by the time a young person is 15-16, they can be productive and responsible for themselves.
I will admit that I have failed miserably with my 16 year old in this area. He bore most of the brunt of my years of sickness, and today he is irresponsible, terrible with money, and he is impulsive to the point that if he found himself anywhere for 3 days, I don't know if he could survive. We did not enforce responsibilities with him when he was younger, he rebelled and due to my sickness, I found it easier just to ignore him and do it myself.
I'm trying very hard not to make those same mistakes with my younger 3.
Thanks, mamajennleigh, for being so thoughtful and honest. The Lord can work with someone like you.  Bless you as you grow in your relationship with the Lord and seek to live out His love to your family. And the 'mistakes' you made with your first child are not beyond redemption. I have found the Lord to take all manner of messes (that I have created) and 'unmess' them. He's good like that.  So Lord, I pray and ask you to look with favor on this mom, mamajennleigh, and give her the desire of her heart, to teach her three younger children what it is to live responsibly as You would have them live, Lord. Flood her with your mercy and love and grow her into the woman of faith who can lead her children to a greater love for You and lives that testify of Your grace and mercy. Thank You, Lord, for hearing and answering our prayer. Bless you, mamajennleigh!   Liveloved
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 7:30:10 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetLittleErin
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
It is not just large families, but dysfunctional ones.
I agree with this 100%. Dysfunctional families come in all sizes, and so do functional ones.
There are family situations where a child can be overburdened with responsibilities, and others where the child may have extensive responsibilities but not suffer. It is so much, much more than how many or how few children a family has.
THATS what I've been trying to say all along. The problems the OP presented can appear in families of 1 or families of 20.
That's why the issue has never been family size. We need to put our defenses down and just look at the question. It is true that in a large family these tendencies are more readily seen. That is just a fact. It's not a judgment. I was from a large family that did not live out the stated concern. It can appear in any family. The question is 'whose responsibility is it?' in a family of any size. The defensiveness may reveal something.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 7:30:26 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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One thought I had about kids who have to work while the mothers aren't doing anything is that the kids might not always see the whole picture. For example, today I fixed dinner and cleaned the kitchen, and then I called my girls who were at a friends' house playing to come on home because it was almost time to eat. Now, if I had got on the computer and asked them to set the table, from their perspective it would seem like they had to do all the work while I played, but they might not think about the idea that I worked while they played, and did considerably more work than I asked them to do. Sometimes a lot of it just has to do with the attitude and perceptions of the child. If the child has an "it's so unfair, I have to do everything!" attitude, then they are going to interpret everything through that perspective.
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"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 11:29:42 PM
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garsyt
Posts: 1740
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the bottom of the laundry basket
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quote:
It is true that in a large family these tendencies are more readily seen.
They might be more "seen" simply because big families tend to get "noticed" a lot more than those with just a couple kids. Let's face it - even I with my 4 get scrutinized regardless of what I do or how my kids behave in the store much more so than my neighbor who has two kids.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/9/2009 11:54:21 PM
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W.O.F.
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our theory on chores and a large family (we only have 5 children) is this...more children should not and does not mean MORE work for anyone person. It doesn't. IF you share chores, and mete them out according the child's ability and age (for example...my 4 year old sets the table, puts away her own clothes [we put pictures on the front of her drawers so she knows where shirts, skirt, etc go], and is in charge of emptying the bathroom trashes as well as bedroom trashes, my 6 year old is in charge of his turn of setting table, putting away clothes, cleaning bathroom sinks and potties, and his turn at dusting the living room, and so on)....you all end up only doing 30 to 40 minutes worth of chores every day, and the house stays fairly clean. When we need to clean fast, all 7 of us in our family pitch in for 10 minutes at a chore...and in that 10 minutes we do the equivalent of an hour and 10 minutes work.
Do some families do it unfairly? yes. Do even good families do it unfairly? at times, yes. It is not fair in a family where the oldest is 18 and the youngest is 4 that the oldest has more chores, BUT they aren't more than what I have ....sometimes with greater age and ability comes greater unfairness and responsibility. If it were perfectly fair for my children, I'd either have a filthy house, or I'd be so busy with day to day chores that I had no time for my children. My kids have never complained...and conversely...they have enjoyed getting to instruct the younger ones in their new chores....for 2 reasons: 1) it means they will no longer be solely responsible for it :) and 2) They enjoy seeing the sense of accomplishment that the younger sibling gets at learning a new task.
I do the primary teaching, but the older siblings do help with supervision and reinforcement of chores.
My mom grew up in a family of 9 children....she doesn't remember them ever being "burdened" with chores...they had plenty of time for play,etc. She did have friends who were only children who had, at any given time, more chores than she did.....
Again, it is not about the size of the family, but about each person being willing to be responsible. I don't have my kids do chores to get me out of work...but to make sure they can care for themselves and their own homes someday, it is just a benefit to me that it changes the monotony of my chores because we can rotate them, and no one has a crushing responsibility.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/10/2009 11:44:08 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1818
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quote:
That's why the issue has never been family size. We need to put our defenses down and just look at the question. It is true that in a large family these tendencies are more readily seen. That is just a fact. It's not a judgment. I was from a large family that did not live out the stated concern. It can appear in any family. The question is 'whose responsibility is it?' in a family of any size. The defensiveness may reveal something.
There can be bad parenting in a family of any size. That is absolutely true. But when there is a larger family, there is more work to be done. True? So, how is that work accomplished? Whose responsibility is it? It is just easier to 'see' because there is greater work, younger children needing care, etc. Make sense?
I used my family of five children as an example of it being done well. And that credit goes to my mother and her servant heart.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/10/2009 1:28:05 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
That's why the issue has never been family size. We need to put our defenses down and just look at the question. It is true that in a large family these tendencies are more readily seen. That is just a fact. It's not a judgment. I was from a large family that did not live out the stated concern. It can appear in any family. The question is 'whose responsibility is it?' in a family of any size. The defensiveness may reveal something.
There can be bad parenting in a family of any size. That is absolutely true. But when there is a larger family, there is more work to be done. True? So, how is that work accomplished? Whose responsibility is it? It is just easier to 'see' because there is greater work, younger children needing care, etc. Make sense?
I used my family of five children as an example of it being done well. And that credit goes to my mother and her servant heart.
I disagree....many hands make light work. It might be a bit more of the different things (more laundry, dishwasher getting run every day instead of just two times a week, etc), but it isn't more work. WOF said it nicely...when there are more hands, things get done quicker and things tend to not get as out of hand because someone notices and deals with it...they don't have to be told to do it, they just do it. Chores take less time during the day when you can divide and conquer things. However, those chores would be there whether there were 5 kids or 1 kid. Every day things have to be done for the house, no matter who lives there. The toilet gets gross...the floors collect dust and ickies and needs to be swept/mopped/vacuumed, the windows still have to be cleaned, the light bulbs still have to be changed. Those things don't change just because you have more kids. They are everyday things in everyone's lives.
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"When God said 'brains', some thought He said 'trains' and got on the wrong track" -Maxine
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/10/2009 7:20:30 PM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1521
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
...many hands make light work. It might be a bit more of the different things (more laundry, dishwasher getting run every day instead of just two times a week, etc), but it isn't more work. WOF said it nicely...when there are more hands, things get done quicker and things tend to not get as out of hand because someone notices and deals with it...they don't have to be told to do it, they just do it. Chores take less time during the day when you can divide and conquer things. However, those chores would be there whether there were 5 kids or 1 kid. Every day things have to be done for the house, no matter who lives there. The toilet gets gross...the floors collect dust and ickies and needs to be swept/mopped/vacuumed, the windows still have to be cleaned, the light bulbs still have to be changed. Those things don't change just because you have more kids. They are everyday things in everyone's lives.
I agree with this- the idea that a larger family means a heavier load seems intuitive, but it is not accurate. My dh and I had one child for the first 8 years of our marriage, then we had three more in quick succession. While there are babies that can't take care of themselves, there is a season of dealing with diapers, feedings, pulling little rugrats from the brink of disaster... but this quickly changes as they learn to care for their own things and then help with household chores.
It's great that things like Swiffers have come along- they make dusting furniture and cleaning floors quick and easy for me and the kids. They often ask if they can Swiffer for me- they love the WetJet. They enjoy the fact that they can prepare several meals by themselves, and beg to learn more.
It's all about your underlying family philosophy. If you teach your kids that performing these mundane but necessary chores are a way to be a blessing to the people they love, they don't look at it so much as an unfair burden. They look for opportunities to lighten the load, to show Dad that they appreciate how hard he works to provide them with the things they need and want- and they feel a sense of accomplishment and the joy that comes from selflessness.
Want to raise an ungrateful and obnoxious brat? Do everything for them. Don't let them break a sweat, endure hardship, or earn their keep. It works every time.
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Susan R
Sunniemom's Survival Guide
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/12/2009 12:21:48 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1653
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
I agree with this- the idea that a larger family means a heavier load seems intuitive, but it is not accurate. My dh and I had one child for the first 8 years of our marriage, then we had three more in quick succession. While there are babies that can't take care of themselves, there is a season of dealing with diapers, feedings, pulling little rugrats from the brink of disaster... but this quickly changes as they learn to care for their own things and then help with household chores.
It's great that things like Swiffers have come along- they make dusting furniture and cleaning floors quick and easy for me and the kids. They often ask if they can Swiffer for me- they love the WetJet. They enjoy the fact that they can prepare several meals by themselves, and beg to learn more.
It's all about your underlying family philosophy. If you teach your kids that performing these mundane but necessary chores are a way to be a blessing to the people they love, they don't look at it so much as an unfair burden. They look for opportunities to lighten the load, to show Dad that they appreciate how hard he works to provide them with the things they need and want- and they feel a sense of accomplishment and the joy that comes from selflessness.
Want to raise an ungrateful and obnoxious brat? Do everything for them. Don't let them break a sweat, endure hardship, or earn their keep. It works every time.
This post really nails it...especially the last line..which is true no matter what the size of the family!
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Whose responsibility is it? - 10/15/2009 12:37:09 PM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 190
Joined: 10/14/2009
From: Alabama
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My mom and I have discussed this, and I would love to hear someone else's perspective. Her neighbor has six kids, all of whom have been wonderfully home-schooled (the mom is a fabulous teacher). They all had responsibilities, and yes, the older kids (especially the daughter) did do a lot of babysitting siblings and such. The daughter didn't mind. However, when said daughter graduated from high school with a very high SAT score and lots of potential, it was decided that she would not go to college. Why? Because the younger kids were still young and she needed to be available to help with them. Oh, and why would she need college because she was just going to marry and have kids anyway and wouldn't ever need a "job" (but that's a whole other thread). My mom - who was awesome while I was growing up - was aghast that the daughter was not permitted to go to college. But I have heard of this situation more and more lately.
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If you feel it has nothing to do with the size of the family, I'm not sure why you brought that into it??? 
). The one family had only two daughters, who were controlled and ordered around like maids far more than the children of a certain super-large family people love to hate. These *two* children were monitored with video and audio All.The.Time, the house had to be perfect, and the one daughter's "job" was to turn her mother's bed down at night and make her mother's lapdog comfy. 
And the mother, after screeching at the girls and talking about how necessary all this was would make desperate attempts at "affection" by saying from a distance "Mommy loves you, you know that, right? Mommy loves you". Ick. 
Whether a family is dysfunctional or not depends on the parents behaviors more than on how many babies they have. 
