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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/26/2009 4:36:07 PM
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McFatty
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AlabamaAlan
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Wow that is a lot of information. We have a deacon in our church that is a Mason. What should I do?
If you are sincere and have questions, then ask him about his Christian beliefs with Masonry. However, it serves no purpose to confront him with it.
The truth is, Freemasonry requires a man to express belief in a Supreme Being, but does not make requirements as to what that being is. The only purpose in this is to say that an individual's beliefs are important and a core part of him, but it is not the place of a Masonic body to tell that man how to worship.
There is no Masonic "god" that is lifted above any other god. It is up to the individual Mason to worship or address prayers to his diety and that diety alone.
There are many Christian deacons and pastors who are also Masons. They are neither fools, nor decieved. Being a Mason does not necessarily conflict with being a Christian.
In fact, one often supports and strengthens the other. If you ask him politely, I hope he will reassure you.
Agreed. There are so many people convinced out of hearsay that it's 100% evil, though. It's an organization that doesn't tell you what to believe. If that's what makes it wrong, is it wrong to belong to your son's PTA, knowing there are other religions represented in this organization to which you belong?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 11:36:00 AM
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peacebringer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebringer
Masonry is deceptive and seeks to draw in many. It is not something harmless.
I recently met with a wife`s uncle who is a long term member of Brazil it was quite clear he was quite lost and felt a sense of the demonic. When talking with him, he talked glowingly of coming "New Era" in terms of world and changes. When talked about generally issues of faith he kept referencing "power within."
A word of note on Dan Brown`s book. It heavily pushes Noetic sciences.
Ask those posting here in support of masonry and suggesting it is harmless. How can the one true God be set up along side others?
Now there are I am sure many truly God loving people caught up in the web, just as there are many caught up in "The Family" and other areas of deception. It does not change the reality. Let me ask you this, there are Godly men involved with Amway. I know of one man that was brought to faith through Amway, does that make Amway any less deceptive? It comes down to what is at the heart. The heart of masonry is not about truth, and any Christian should RUN AWAY for the evil that resides there.
Don't go to the train station either, because evil resides there. Don't shop at most stores either, because chances are the head of the company is probably not a believer, so is probably evil. I think you're being a bit dramatic. How much of this that you're saying is personal experience and how much of it is hearsay?
I obviously don't believe that. You've simply claimed masonry is evil... without any supporting evidence. You've claimed that it all comes down to the heart, but I don't agree, and see no reason to believe that because you've given nothing to back it up.
As for your question, I don't quite understand. What do you mean set up along side others?
Funny thing is, you dismiss any "evidence" as false even if it comes from masonic charters and documents.
It is not surprising that you do not understand set up along side others? This is what masonry does and is even the shape of things to come. It doesn`t matter what you believe, as long as you believe something. I have seen plenty of evidence on masonry and well understand the evil roots. Of course there is nothing can say that can convince you otherwise, as you dismiss evidence as clearly evidenced in this post. And yes, I stated an opinion that Freemasonry is evil. Just one of many evils out there seeking to deceive many and serve as ways that can lead many astray.
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True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 11:41:38 AM
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peacebringer
Posts: 251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: AlabamaAlan
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Wow that is a lot of information. We have a deacon in our church that is a Mason. What should I do?
If you are sincere and have questions, then ask him about his Christian beliefs with Masonry. However, it serves no purpose to confront him with it.
The truth is, Freemasonry requires a man to express belief in a Supreme Being, but does not make requirements as to what that being is. The only purpose in this is to say that an individual's beliefs are important and a core part of him, but it is not the place of a Masonic body to tell that man how to worship.
There is no Masonic "god" that is lifted above any other god. It is up to the individual Mason to worship or address prayers to his diety and that diety alone.
There are many Christian deacons and pastors who are also Masons. They are neither fools, nor decieved. Being a Mason does not necessarily conflict with being a Christian.
In fact, one often supports and strengthens the other. If you ask him politely, I hope he will reassure you.
Agreed. There are so many people convinced out of hearsay that it's 100% evil, though. It's an organization that doesn't tell you what to believe. If that's what makes it wrong, is it wrong to belong to your son's PTA, knowing there are other religions represented in this organization to which you belong?
AH, but yet it has very specific beliefs that run contrary to the Gospel. The deeper the involvement the deeper in to the true heart of masonry. You do not want to here the testimony of those caught up in the deception. It serves a function for you, but the root and heart is evil. Let me give you this challenge. Seek God over the matter and ask God to open your eyes to anything that may have accepted that is rooted in deception and evil. None of us can convince those of you caught up in this particular trap of the truth.
And yes, many professing Christians are caught up in it, as many are caught up in other deceptions.
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True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 12:29:07 PM
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peacebringer
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Open letter to a Christian Mason
I ask those who are defending masonry to read the above and other material.
I recognize my just stating masonry is evil does nothing to dissuage anyone and really simply puts up the defenses and for that, it was unwise and not the most loving approach. It does not help lead anyone from deception.
Also challenge to spend time reading testimonies of former masons. Testimony of Pierce Dodson
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True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 12:50:48 PM
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solarflare
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Christian and Mason cannot exist within the same individual. And Mason will win out every time until it is renounced and repented of.
I've known a few along the way and even though they claimed to be Christians, the spirit they evidenced was absolutely contrary to the Spirit of God. I do not believe they were/are exceptions.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/27/2009 12:57:05 PM >
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 4:37:10 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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From: Augusta, GA
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Peacebringer...
You say you will not convince me.... but is it not equally true that I will not convince you?
I have prayed to the Lord about this matter... and the Lord has convicted me not to call anything evil hastily, as so many do. I don't run around yelling "This is evil!" or "That is evil!" until I know for a fact it is. There is a serious danger in falsely labeling something. Now, on the other hand, I'm not saying masonry is a necessarily good thing. I'm not a mason. I don't know exactly what happens except from what I hear from my Christian mason friends (which you assume is an impossibility, so you're immediately discounting anything they say before they say it). These people have shown me no difference between themselves and a non-mason Christian, as far as fruits of the Spirit go.
So showing me a clearly biased article and one testimony to try and contradict the testimony of many I have heard isn't the be all and end all of argument points. If you'd like, I can have my friends write up something from the other side of the argument, which you will most likely immediately discount. See... this goes both ways.
I've read masonry is evil tracts before... but I've heard the same people claim that if I watch a Harry Potter movie, I'm going to hell... so I take that kind of thing with a grain of salt.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 6:10:12 PM
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peacebringer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Peacebringer...
You say you will not convince me.... but is it not equally true that I will not convince you?
I have prayed to the Lord about this matter... and the Lord has convicted me not to call anything evil hastily, as so many do. I don't run around yelling "This is evil!" or "That is evil!" until I know for a fact it is. There is a serious danger in falsely labeling something. Now, on the other hand, I'm not saying masonry is a necessarily good thing. I'm not a mason. I don't know exactly what happens except from what I hear from my Christian mason friends (which you assume is an impossibility, so you're immediately discounting anything they say before they say it). These people have shown me no difference between themselves and a non-mason Christian, as far as fruits of the Spirit go.
So showing me a clearly biased article and one testimony to try and contradict the testimony of many I have heard isn't the be all and end all of argument points. If you'd like, I can have my friends write up something from the other side of the argument, which you will most likely immediately discount. See... this goes both ways.
I've read masonry is evil tracts before... but I've heard the same people claim that if I watch a Harry Potter movie, I'm going to hell... so I take that kind of thing with a grain of salt.
First of all I cannot speak to what God has dealt with you over or why, but it is clear that Masonry is deceptive and antichrist. The same said for Harry Potter. Now that does not mean good well meaning people are not caught up in the deception. Now, I would not go so far as to say that every one caught in the deception is going to hell as God is the judge of heart and when someone has crossed line into apostasy. Too me Masonry is just one of many deceptions out there with bait that if possible can fool the elect. Again I ask you about the comparison to Amway. Just because there are Christians involved and some brought to Jesus or deeper relationship to Jesus doesn`t make it any less deceptive. The same can be said for "The Family."
In terms of determine truth and examining what is deceptive, our experience and relationships should not be the guide, but rather look to the word of truth. We know we cannot have fellowship with both light and darkness. Let me ask you this, do you believe the good Christian men who God has led out of masonry are liars? You think they just have an "ax to grind" or perhaps following what God has led? It is troublesome when I see direct words and evidence dismissed as errant based on experience and personal relationships. Again my use of word evil was not the wise approach to this matter. The question I would have for you "friends" involved in masonry is why? What does such membership bring them?
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True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 6:45:35 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2526
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
If you'd like, I can have my friends write up something from the other side of the argument, which you will most likely immediately discount. See... this goes both ways.
I for one would love to hear from one of your friends, if someone was willing to put something together. The collective pooled ignorance of all of us here doesn't really shed any light. All of the objections raised by the anti-mason crowd here have been answered on various masonic websites, but a word from a reliable brother would be a good thing.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 6:58:45 PM
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McFatty
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I'll see a friend of mine on Wednesday... I'll see if he'd be willing to write a statement.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 8:49:21 PM
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AlabamaAlan
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quote:
All of the objections raised by the anti-mason crowd here have been answered on various masonic websites, but a word from a reliable brother would be a good thing.
I may not be considered reliable because I am a Freemason and I am not a regular on these boards. However, if you are willing to take me at my word as a Christian brother, I can share my experiences and those that I know about first hand.
First some background: I am a Christian and have been since childhood. I have been brought up in Southern Baptist churches so my outlook is evangelical protestant.
I am a member of a Masonic lodge and also a member of the Scottish Rite. I am not a member of the York Rite nor the Shrine although I have friends in each and do have some knowledge of them.
Also, I realize this will sound like a cop-out, but I must state that no one man or group speaks for Freemasonry. There is no "authoritative source" and what is true in one jurisdiction may not be true in another. However, many differences are slight and it is possible to make generalizations.
Before I became a Mason, I had tried to persuade one of my friends against joining because I had read enough tracts and alleged exposes to want nothing to do with it. I also thought it was dangerous, so I can appreciate sincere comments when a person thinks that someone else is in spiritual danger.
However, I am not going to engage in ongoing debate and will not tolerate being told that I am either a fool, evil, or involved in any type of Satanism or other outlandish claims. In return, I will give first hand information as I can and answer in as civil a manner as I can.
Of course, like all men, I am a sinner and prone to mistakes ;)
So what would you like to know?
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/27/2009 10:58:29 PM
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GroupW
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First, thanks for being willing to provide your perspectives.
Question #1 - my understanding is that a belief in a monotheistic god is required but it is not required that I believe that all faiths are equivalent. It is only required that I repect the beliefs of other Freemasons and conform my own behavior to the standards set out in the holy writings of the faith that I adhere to.
Is that more or less accurate, and if you would phrase that differently how would you say it?
Thanks again for being willing to explain. I appreciate it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/28/2009 8:22:05 AM
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AlabamaAlan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
First, thanks for being willing to provide your perspectives.
Question #1 - my understanding is that a belief in a monotheistic god is required but it is not required that I believe that all faiths are equivalent.
That sums it up quite well. One of the purposes of Freemasonry is to provide a fraternal environment for men from all walks of life. However, because politics and religion are so often causes for dissension those topics are not discussed in lodge.
A man without faith is considered to have nothing to base his word upon, so it is required to have a belief in God. However, that is all that will be said and no further details will be requested.
But we are definitely not taught that we are to believe that all religions are equal, or that there is a universal religion that binds all together, etc. We are only encouraged to participate in whatever religion we adhere to.
I have also been told that my lodge should always be a lower priority than my church and family and I should never participate in anything that I believe to be in conflict with the other two.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/28/2009 9:35:30 AM
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GroupW
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Got it. Thanks. It seems then that there is confusion in some circles between a) not making a decision on whose god is really God, with b) equating all gods as the same. That to me seems like a fine but important distinction to make.
Next Q's -
1) So what about the suggestion that Freemasons believe that all scripture (Torah, Koran, Bible, whatever) is Truth - that would follow the same logic, right? It seems to me that masons choose which particular set of holy writings they individually adhere to without sitting in judgement on the others. In other words, while I may not believe that the Koran contains Ultimate Truth, I as a freemason should respect those who believe it does and be willing to at least ascertain what MAY be true within the Koran even if I believe the Koran itself is in error. (Edit to add example: Both the Koran and the Bible say stealing is wrong. In this case the Koran and the Bible agree, so as a Christian I can safely say that the Koran does at least contain SOME truth.)
Am I stating that correctly ?
2) Going back to the original question that was posed, if there were a freemason leader in your church, what would YOU want to know or ask to make sure you were comfortable with his leadership?
< Message edited by GroupW -- 10/28/2009 9:42:32 AM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/28/2009 10:09:44 AM
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AlabamaAlan
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quote:
It seems to me that masons choose which particular set of holy writings they individually adhere to without sitting in judgement on the others.
That sounds correct. Again, a Masonic lodge is not a Bible study so there is no discussion on the truth of one holy text vs another.
Where I have seen this come into debate among anti-masons (I mean this as clarification, not a deragatory statement) is when a lodge may have the Bible and Koran both on the altar in the lodge. This is not a particular act of worship or equating one with the other, but it is a requirement in the lodge to have a sacred text displayed. In my lodge, that is always a Bible, but if we had members of another faith, we would display their writings as well just so that each man felt represented.
When a candidate takes his oath, he is asked which book he believes to be holy (and therefore binding) and that one is used for him. Otherwise, there may only be one book, most often the Holy Bible.
As for church leadership, obviously I would not have a problem with a Mason in any position. However, I have known that some churches are more receptive than others, so if my lodge membership caused a problem in any church where I was serving, I would at least not wear a ring, etc. into church and if a pastor, I might demit from the lodge just to keep the peace.
However, I would hope that if anyone had confusion or a question about it they would ask politely and I would be able to answer any misunderstandings to everyone's satisfaction.
I would hate Masonic membership to be a stumbling block in a church, but I'd also hate for any Mason to feel unwelcome due to misinformation.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/28/2009 10:25:22 AM
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GroupW
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Thanks again.
Time for me to shut up and let someone else ask questions.
Enjoy the day.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/28/2009 11:48:24 AM
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mrtigger
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AlabamaAlan
When a candidate takes his oath, he is asked which book he believes to be holy (and therefore binding) and that one is used for him. Otherwise, there may only be one book, most often the Holy Bible.
quote:
A man without faith is considered to have nothing to base his word upon, so it is required to have a belief in God. However, that is all that will be said and no further details will be requested.
Just a question for clarification -- not for argument.... The two things above are not quite the same thing... I personally believe that God exists but I do not believe any book available is the same thing as being "God's Word".
So is the Masonic requirement really that you only just have to believe in a monotheistic God or do you also have to believe a document exists that is "Gods Word"?
< Message edited by mrtigger -- 10/28/2009 11:54:32 AM >
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/28/2009 1:31:41 PM
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AlabamaAlan
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That's actually a good point. No, as far as I know there is not really a requirement that you accept a text as holy.
However, a part of initiation does require you to press the "book of your faith" to your heart. It is just customary that a man who expressed a belief in God would also hold reverence for the writings of his faith as well.
But there is nothing required, or even mentioned in the lodge, about any sacred texts or what any man's particular beliefs within his faith may be. Things at that level are for individual conscience or between that man and God (whatever his idea of God may be) It is only that the lodge will offer a man a different book if his faith regards a book other than the Bible as his guide.
So to answer the question, the requirement is only that a man has a faith in God.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/29/2009 10:19:30 PM
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lw9
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Hello AlabamaAlan:
A few questions.
1. Do you all pray together in the lodge?
2. If so, in whose name do you pray? In other words, what name is used for God?
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/30/2009 7:06:43 AM
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AlabamaAlan
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There are prayers given to open and close meetings, and before meals, just like with other groups.
Although we have been known to offer prayers in Jesus' name, we usually keep it less specific by utilizing terms such as "God", "Father", or "Great Architect of the Universe" (A term not used exclusively by Masons, btw)
This is not a "different" God but simply using a generic term. Ironically, using a generic term instead of praying in Jesus' name was stressed a lot more to me when I was a LION (excellent civic club) rather than as a Mason, because we had both Christian and Jewish members in my club.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/30/2009 12:03:29 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2526
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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So, said differently:
Praying generically allows each member to pray to his own God, rightly or wrongly without making a judgement on who that God is or whether or not that God is equated with any other.
Is that fair?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/30/2009 12:17:11 PM
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AlabamaAlan
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Yes, that is the intent. It is a practice followed by many organizations that have prayer as part of a meeting.
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/30/2009 12:39:54 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2526
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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I actually wasn't aware that the Lions did that. The Exchange Club I used to belong to did that, but it wasn't by any formal agreement - it just developed that way.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/30/2009 1:04:26 PM
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AlabamaAlan
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Well, that was only what I was told by members of my club :) I don't believe it was a formal decree issued by Lions International.
As you said, it's just something that develops when you either have differing faiths represented, and/or do not wish to appear like you are being exclusionary.
There would probably be no issue if Masonic writings just used the term "God" instead of titles such as "GAOTU" but most lodges take pride in old stately ritual and grandiose terms. ;)
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RE: Masonic beliefs? - 10/31/2009 2:45:44 AM
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lw9
Posts: 879
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Hello again, AlabamaAlan
quote:
Although we have been known to offer prayers in Jesus' name, we usually keep it less specific by utilizing terms such as "God", "Father", or "Great Architect of the Universe" (A term not used exclusively by Masons, btw)
This is not a "different" God but simply using a generic term.
quote:
As you said, it's just something that develops when you either have differing faiths represented, and/or do not wish to appear like you are being exclusionary.
So God, Father, or GAOTU can be Jesus or Buddha or Allah. All gods are addressed and accepted as one name.
I get that the Lodge wants to be all inclusive and accepting of all religions and all gods. For non-Christians, that's fine. Unfortunately it does not square with the Christian faith. Christians are commanded to stand apart and preach His truth and His gospel alone. Christians are told to not yoke themselves with unbelievers. The Bible plainly states there is only one God, and His name is Jesus Christ. He is not generic. He does not tolerate false gods, nor does He tolerate association with false gods. God is, in fact, exclusive since salvation and truth come only through Him.
By praying alongside unbelievers and collectively addressing and associating the false gods with the one true God, unbelievers come away with the assurance that all gods are equal and all gods are true, and the Christian God is openly rejected as the one true God.
Are Christians allowed to state the truth of Jesus Christ in a Lodge, or must they remain silent on that matter and participate in prayer to all other gods? If it's the latter, then they are going against His commandments to stand apart and preach His truth. The solution is pretty simple. Don't join any organization that offers communal prayers with unbelievers to a generically termed god. Everyone has a choice to not put themselves in this position.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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