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ORIGINAL: Eutychus

Ah, documentation by Wiki, where never an untruth or bias can be found...

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then its alright to join masonary.

Then it must be a sin for any believer to join any club or organization that doesn't espouse your theology, IOW, the only organization or even a job that a believer can be involved with has to be a church. Why don't we all run off to a monastery?

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ORIGINAL: GroupW

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ORIGINAL: prophet

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14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

then its alright to join masonary.

I've seen this verse used incorrectly in this manner. Having looked into it, I think the actual language used implies a very tight bond from which it's difficult to extract onesself. For example, being a close business partner with a non-believer could be problematic, while being employed in a firm composed of non-believers probably isn't. Being married to one would be, while forming friendships with unbelievers is not.

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Ah....but its well known they use that name...

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ORIGINAL: AlabamaAlan

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Ah....but its well known they use that name...

And where exactly is that name used - particularly as a name for a separate god, or even for God at all?

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Although I like GroupW's explanation, I will admit that being yoked together by oaths, etc. at least makes more sense than being yoked together with unbelievers by saying grace next to a Jewish man at a Rotary club.

However, I am not sure why you say that any lodge oath has religious conotations, especially when one man's religious beliefs has no bearing on any others.

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ORIGINAL: AlabamaAlan

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Yes, it is not just a "fraternal meeting". Freemasonry is far more involved in many things then just some guys meeting together in building that is supposed to be symbolic of Solomon's temple.

Let me ask you this alan, what changed you mind regarding Masonry. Why did you join?
How far have you progressed?

I know I'm gonna regret this, but what else is Freemasonry far more involved in?

As for what changed my mind, I realized that I should not take theology from Jack Chick or Jim Shaw. When I broadened my reading to Pro-masonic material instead of warnings, I quickly saw the fallacies and downright lies being offered as facts.

I was influenced more by the lives of men I knew to be of good character, and faithful Christians, and trusted they would not be involved or easily fooled if things presented in the anti-masonic literature I had read were true.

For instance, claims that Jahbulon is a Masonic "god" are found in anti-masonic literature, but not in any actual Masonic rituals (from what I have read..I have never seen the name used as any Deity in my experience)

As for how far I have progressed, I do not offer myself as a "leader of Freemasonry", etc. but since I had questions, I did enough research to satisfy myself, and that included several point-blank religious questions to the investigating committee who had to recommend me for membership.

As a member of the Scottish Rite, I am a 32nd Degree Mason, but that is not actually any "higher" than a Master Mason.

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Its a name used by masons for an inclusive god.... Ja- bul - on

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What else is Freemasonry involved in. Well, they do try and get their members into positions of power. My wife's uncle pretty much told me that point blank.

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ORIGINAL: AlabamaAlan

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Its a name used by masons for an inclusive god.... Ja- bul - on

Again...where?

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What else is Freemasonry involved in. Well, they do try and get their members into positions of power. My wife's uncle pretty much told me that point blank.

Of course, I should have known. I mean no disrespect for your uncle, but getting into Masonry in order to get anything out of it for personal gain is unethical. But other than perhaps favoring someone who belongs to the same organization as you for a job what kind of position of power do Masons have access to?

I will be out of town for a few days so will be unable to reply. I did not read the links for the degrees posted, but if they are legit, what is counter to the gospels?

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AlabamaAlan: You are saying that a Christian is suppressing the truth of Christ at any meeting, luncheon, or gathering where a generic prayer is made and should have nothing to do with it.

That leaves out a lot of organizations, far more (and probably less sinister) than freemasonry.

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I was influenced more by the lives of men I knew to be of good character, and faithful Christians, and trusted they would not be involved or easily fooled if things presented in the anti-masonic literature I had read were true

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ORIGINAL: orderofscotland

The only part of Freemasonry that accepts religions other than Christian is the first three degrees.
Each member in those degrees commonly known as the Blue Lodge attends and sits with his own religion.
In any meeting of the Blue lodge there can be members of all faiths practicing brotherhood together.
All lodges and degrees higher than the first three degrees are strictly Christian, members must be Trinitarian.
One false beliefs that the 33rd degree is the highest degree, that is far from the truth and is not even logical under the
structure of the Freemasons.
Give the Freemasons credit for getting along with people from other religions. Any christian bookstore is an example of how Christians do not tolerate
other faiths. They have books against each other and all are suppose to be Christians.

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Scottish Rite FAQ
ARE THERE ANY RELIGIOUS DISQUALIFICATIONS?
The Scottish Rite does not intrude on the religious beliefs of its members, but it does require that its adherents profess a belief in a Supreme Being, and urges its members to be active in their respective houses of worship. It does not attempt to teach any creed nor pretend to be a religion nor a substitute for religion. Scottish Rite practices universality.

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A. What I most desired.

Q. Your answer?

A. Light.

Q. Did you receive light?

A. I did, by the order of the Worshipful Master and the assistance of the brethren.

Q. On being brought to light, what did you first discover?

A. The three great lights in Masonry, by the help of the three lesser.

Q. What are the three great lights in Masonry?

A. The Holy Bible, square, and compasses.

Q. What are their Masonic use?

A. The Holy Bible is the rule and guide to our faith and practice; the square, to square our actions; and the compasses, to circumscribe and keep us within bounds with all mankind, but more especially with a brother Mason.

Q. What are the three lesser lights?

A. Three burning tapers, in a triangular position.

Q. What do they represent?

A. The sun, moon, and Master of the Lodge.

Q. Why so?

A. Because, as the sun rules the day, and the moon governs the night, so ought the Worshipful Master to endeavor to rule and govern his Lodge, with equal regularity.

Q. What did you then discover?

A. The Worshipful Master approaching me from the east, under the duegard and sign of an Entered Apprentice; who, in token of his brotherly love and favor, presented me with his right hand, and with it the grip and word of an Entered Apprentice and ordered me to arise and salute the Junior and Senior Wardens as an Entered Apprentice.

Q. After saluting the Wardens, what did you then discover?

A. The Worshipful Master approaching me from the east a second time, who presented me with a lambskin or white linen apron which he informed me was an emblem of innocence and the badge of a Mason; that it had been worn by kings, princes, and potentates of the earth; that it was more ancient than the Golden Fleece or Roman Eagle; more honorable than the Star or Garter, or any other order that could be conferred on me at that or any time thereafter by king, prince, potentate, or any other person, except he be a Mason; and hoped that I would wear it with equal Praise to myself and honor to the fraternity; and ordered me to carry it to the Senior Warden in the west, who taught me how to wear it as an Entered Apprentice.

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ORIGINAL: orderofscotland

There is a part in the Bible that says...The Lord dwells in a dark cloud.
I see that we have a poster that claims religious tolerance is not part of the Christian faith.
In other words he is a disbeliever in the Christian doctrine...Love your fellow man

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The earliest form of catechism that we have on record is that contained in the Sloane Manuscript, No. 3329, now in the British Museum, which has been printed and published by the Rev. A. F. A. Woodford. One familiar with the catechisms of the eighteenth century will detect the origin of much that they contain in this early specimen. It is termed in the manuscript the Freemason's "private discourse by way of question and answer," and is in these words:
Question. Are you a Mason?
A. Yes, I am a Freemason.
Q. How shall I know that?
A. By perfect signs and tokens and the first points of my Entrance.
Q. Which is the first sign or token, shew me the first and I will shew you the second.
A. The first is heal and conceal or conceal and keep secret by no less pain than cutting my tongue from my throat.
Q. Where were you made a mason?
A. In a just and perfect or just and lawful lodge.
Q. What is a just and perfect or just and lawful lodge?
A. A just and perfect lodge is two Entered apprentices two fellow crafts and two Masters, more or fewer the more the merrier the fewer the better clear but if need require five will serve that is, two Entered apprentices , two fellow crafts and one Master on the highest hill or lowest valley of the world without the crow of a coeh or the bark of a dog.
Q. From whom do you derive your principally.
A. From a greater than you.
Q. Who is that on earth that is greater than a Freemason?
A. He y't was earyed to y'e highest pinnicall of the temple of Jerusalem.
Q. Whith'r is vour lodge shut or open'?
A. It is shut.
Q. Where Iyes the keys of the lodge doore?
A. They ley in a bound ease or under a three cornered pavem't about a foote and halfe from the lodge door.
Q. What is the key of your lodge door made of?
A. It is not made of wood stone iron or steel or any sort of mettle but the tongue of good report behind a Brothers back as well as before his face.
Q. How many gavels belong to your lodge?
A. There are three the square pavement the blazing star and the Danty tassley.
Q. How long is the cable rope of your lodge?
A. As long as from the Lop of the liver to the root of the tongue.
Q. How many lights are in your lodge?
A. Three the sun the master and the square.
Q. How high i8 your lodge?
A. Without foots yards or Inches, it reaches to heaven.
Q. How stood your lodge?
A. East and west as all holly Temples stand.
Q. Which is the masters place in the lodge?
A. The east place is the masters place in the lodge and the jewel resteth on him first and he setteth men to work w't the m'rs have in the forenoon the wardens reap in the afternoon.
Q. Where was the word first given?
A. At the tower of Babylon.
Q. Where did they first call their lodger
A. At the holy chapel of Saint John.
Q. How stood your lodge?
A. As the said holy chapel and all other holy Temples stand (viz.) east and west.
Q. How many lights are in your lodge?
A. Two one to see to go in and another to see to work.
Q. What were you sworn by?
A. By God and the square.
Q. Whither above the clothes or under the clothes?
A. Under the clothes.
Q. Under what arms?
A. Under the right arms. God is grateful to all Worshipful Masters and fellows in that Worshipful lodge from whence we last came and to you good fellow with is your name. A. J or B then giving the grip of the hand he will say Brother John greet you well you.
A. God's good greeting to you dear Brother.

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Though the Scriptures furnish but a meager account of Enoch, the traditions of Freemasonry closely connect him, by numerous circumstances, with the early history of the Institution. All, indeed, that we learn from the Book of Genesis on the subject of his life is, that he was the seventh of the patriarchs; the son of Jared, and the great-grandfather of Noah; that he was born in the year of the world 622; that his life was one of eminent virtue, so much so, that he is described as "walking with God"; and that in the year 987 his earthly pilgrimage was terminated, as the commentators generally suppose, not by death, but by a bodily translation to heaven. In the very commencement of our inquiries, we shall find circumstances in the life of this great patriarch that shadow forth, as it were, something of that mysticism with which the traditions of Freemasonry have connected him.

His name, in the Hebrew language, Sol, Henoch, signifies to initiate and to instruct, and seems intended to express the fact that he was, as Oliver remarks, the first to give a decisive character to the rite of initiation and to add to the practice of Divine worship the study and application of human science. In confirmation of this view, a writer in the Freemasons Quarterly Review says, on this subject, that "it seems probable that Enoch introduced the speculative principles into the Masonic creed, and that he originated its exclusive character," which theory must be taken, if it is accepted at all, with very considerable reservations.

The years of his life may also be supposed to contain a mystic meaning, for they amounted to three hundred and sixty-five, being exactly equal to a solar revolution. In all the ancient rites this number has occupied a prominent place, because it was the representative of the annual course of that luminary which, as the great fructifier of the earth, was the peculiar object of divine worship.
Of the early history of Enoch, we know nothing. It is, however, probable that, like the other descendants of the pious Seth, he passed his pastoral life in the neighborhood of Mount Moriah. From the other patriarchs he differed only in this, that, enlightened by the Divine knowledge which has been imparted to him, he instructed his contemporaries in the practice of those rites, and in the study of those sciences, with which he had himself become acquainted.

The Oriental writers abound in traditionary evidence of the learning of the venerable patriarch. One tradition states that he received from God the gift of wisdom and knowledge, and that God sent him thirty volumes from heaven, filled with all the secrets of the most mysterious sciences. The Babylonians supposed him to have been intimately acquainted with the nature of the stars; and they attribute to him the invention of astrology. The Rabbis maintain that he was taught by God and Adam how to sacrifice, and how to worship the Deity aright. The Cabalistic book of Raziel says that he received the Divine mysteries from Adam, through the direct line of the preceding patriarchs.

The Greek Christians supposed him to have been identical with the first Egyptian Hermes, who dwelt at Sais. They say he was the first to give instruction on the celestial bodies; that he foretold the deluge that was to overwhelm his descendants; and that he built the Pyramids, engraving thereon figures of artificial instruments and the elements of the sciences, fearing lest the memory of man should perish in that general destruction. Eupolemus, a Grecian writer, makes him the same as Atlas, and attributes to him, as the Pagans did to that deity, the invention of astronomy. Wait (Oriental Antiquities) quotes a passage from Bar Hebraeus, a Jewish writer, which asserts that Enoch was the first who invented books and writing; that he taught men the art of building cities; that he discovered the knowledge of the Zodiac and the course of the planets; and that he inculcated the worship of God by fasting, prayer, alms, votive offering, and tithes. Bar Hebraeus adds, that he also appointed festivals for sacrifices to the sun at the periods when that luminary entered each of the zodiacal signs; but this statement, which would make him the author of idolatry, is entirely inconsistent with all that we know of his character, from both history and tradition, and arose, as Oliver supposes, most probably from a blending of the characters of Enos and Enoch.

In the study of the sciences, in teaching them to his children and his contemporaries, and in instituting the Tites of initiation, Enoch is supposed to have passed the years of his peaceful, his pious, and his useful life, until the crimes of mankind had increased to such a height that, in the expressive words of holy Writ, "every imagination of the thoughts of man's heart was only evil continually." It was then, according to a Masonic tradition, that Enoch, disgusted with the wickedness that surrounded him, and appalled at the thought of its inevitable consequences, fled to the solitude and secrecy of Mount Moriah, and devoted himself to prayer and pious contemplation. It was on that spot then first consecrated by this patriarchal hermitage, and afterward to be made still more holy by the sacrifices of Abraham, of David, and of Solomon—that we are informed that the Shekinah, or sacred presence, appeared to him, and gave him those instructions which were to preserve the wisdom of the antediluvians to their posterity when the world, with the exception of but one family, should have been destroyed by the forthcoming flood. The circumstances which occurred at that time are recorded in a tradition which forms what has been called the great Masonic legend of Enoch, and which runs to this effect: Enoch, being inspired by the Most High, and in commemoration of a wonderful vision, built a temple underground, and dedicated it to God. His son, Methuselah, constructed the building; although he was not acquainted with his father's motives for the erection. This temple consisted of nine brick vaults, situated perpendicularly beneath each other and communicating by apertures left in the arch of each vault.

Enoch then caused a triangular plate of gold to be made, each side of which was a cubit long; he enriched it with the most precious stones, and encrusted the plate upon a stone of agate of the same form. On the grave he engraved, in ineffable characters, the true name of Deity, and, placing it on a cubical pedestal of white marble, he deposited the whole within the deepest arch. When this subterranean building was completed, he made a door of stone, and attaching to it a ring of iron, by which it might be occasionally raised, he placed it over the opening of the uppermost arch, and so covered it over that the aperture could not be discovered. Enoch himself was permitted to enter it but once a year; and on the death of Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech, and the destruction of the world by the deluge, all knowledge of this temple, and of the sacred treasure which it contained, was lost until, in after times, it was accidentally discovered by another worthy of Freemasonry, who, like Enoch, leas engaged in the erection of a temple on the same spot.

The legend goes on to inform us that after Enoch had completed the subterranean temple, fearing that the principles of those arts and sciences which he had cultivated with so much assiduity would be lost in that general destruction of which he had received a prophetic vision, he erected two pillars—the one of marble, to withstand the influence of fire, and the other of brass, to resist the action of water. On the pillar of brass he engraved the history of creation, the principles of the arts and sciences, and the doctrines of Speculative Freemasonry as they were practiced in his times; and on the one of marble he inscribed characters in hieroglyphics, importing that near the spot where they stood a precious treasure was deposited in a subterranean vault.

Josephus gives an account of these pillars in the first book of his Antiquities. He ascribes them to the children of Seth, which is by no means a contradiction of the Masonic tradition, since Enoch was one of these children. "That their inventions," says the historian, "might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire and at another time by the violence and quantity of water, they made two pillars—the one of brick, the other of stone; they inscribed their discoveries on them both, that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain and exhibit those discoveries to mankind, and also inform them that there was another pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land of Siriad to this day."

Enoch, having completed these labors, called his descendants around him on Mount Moriah, and having warned them in the most solemn manner of the consequences of their wickedness, exhorted them to forsake their idolatries and return once more to the worship of the true God. Masonic tradition informs us that he then delivered up the government of the Craft to his grandson, Lamech, and disappeared from earth.

Doctor Mackey refers above to the discoveries made at the attempt by Julian the Apostate to rebuild the Temple. These are of especial interest to Brethren of various Degrees and the two leading accounts of these legends may well be included here as a matter of information. First we have the one given by the Greek historian Nicephorus Calistus in the fourteenth century, in his Ecclesiastical Histories. He records the following remarkable details of an occurrence that happened at the attempt to rebuild the Temple:

When the foundations were being laid, as has been said one of the stones attached to the lowest part of the foundation was removed from its place and showed the mouth of a cavern which had been cut out of the rock. But as the cave could not be distinctly seen, those who had charge of the work, wishing to explore it that they might be better acquainted with the place, sent one of the workmen down tied to a long rope.

When he got to the bottom he found water up to his legs. Searching the cavern on every side, he found, by touching with his hands, that it was of a quadrangular form. When he was returning to the mouth, he discovered a certain pillar standing up scarcely above the water. Feeling with his hand. he found a little book placed upon it, and wrapped up in very fine and clean linen. Taking possession of it, he gave the signal with the rope that those who had sent him down, should draw him up. Being received above, as soon as the book was shown, all were struck with astonishment, especially as it appeared untouched and fresh notwithstanding that it had been found in so dismal and dark a place. But when the book was unfolded, not only the Jews but the Greeks were astounded. For even at the beginning it declared in large letters: " In the beginning was the Word with God, and the Word was God." To speak plainly, the writing embraced the whole Gospel which was announced in the divine tongue of the (beloved) disciple and the Virgin. This legend as here quoted is in the Ecclesiasticae Historicae, Nicephori Callisti, tome ii, lib. x, cap. xxxiii, and is also in the Patrologza Graeca, Migne, volume cxlvi, pages 542-3. Another description of the same occurrence is given in the Epitome of the Ecclesiastical History of Philostorgius, compiled by Photius in the ninth century and translated by Edward Walford; published by Henry G. Bohn at London, 1855, chapter xiv, page 482, and this reads:

The work of rebuilding the temple of Jerusalem by Julian was checked by many prodigies from Heaven; and especially during the preparation of the foundations, one of the stones which was placed at the lowest part of the base suddenly started from its place and opened the door of a certain cave hollowed out in the rock. Owing to its depth, it was difficult to see what was within this cave; so persons were appointed to investigate the matter, who, being anxious to find out the truth, let down one of their workmen by means of a rope.

On being lowered down he found stagnant water reaching to his knees; and having gone around the place and felt the walls on every side, he found the cave to be a perfect square.

Then, in his return, he stood near about the middle, and struck his foot against a column which stood rising slightly above the water. As soon as he touched this pillar, he found lying upon it a book wrapped up in a very fine and thin linen cloth; and as soon as he had lifted it up just as he had found it, he gave a signal to his companions to draw him up again. As soon as he regained the light, he showed them the book, which struck them all with astonishment, especially because it appeared so new and fresh, considering the place where it had been found.

This book, which appeared such a mighty prodigy in the eyes of both heathens and Jews, as soon as it was opened, showed the following words in large letters. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ' In fact the volume contained that entire Gospel which had been declared by the divine tongue of the (beloved) disciple and the Virgin.

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BLAVATSKY, HELENA PETROVNA

Russian theosophist, born July 31, 1831; died May 8, 1891, established at New York in 1875 the Theosophica1 Society. A sketch of the history of the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry, published by- John Hogg at London, 1880, says on page 58 that "The 24th of November, 1877, the Order conferred upon Madam H. P. Blavatsky the Degrees of the Rite of Adoption. "

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ORIGINAL: orderofscotland

12% of all the ministers in the Southern Baptist Convention and 14% of all the deacons are Freemasons.