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Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 4:17:18 PM
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DoveMinistries
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James 2:20 Faith without works is dead.
Just wondering what is the works here he speaks of. I have my own idea whats yours?
Dr Mark and RCJames, I know you will be a big help here, so you can go first.
Starting a tread to get us all to start thinking.
God Bless
R. Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 4:31:17 PM
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LCannon
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"Talk is cheap; show me your faith without obedience and I will show you my faith by my obedience." James 2:17,18
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 5:13:59 PM
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ladyichigo
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I'm not Dr. Mark or RC, but I would like to throw in few cents.
I think: works = doing good deeds for God's glory.
If we do not do any good, then what kind of testimony is that in regards to our faith in Christ? Sure you can talk all you want, but if you don't act upon what you talk about, if you don't practice what you preach, if you don't apply your knowledge of what Christ teaches, then those around you, believers and non-believers won't see your faith.
Works = Proof of your faith in Christ.
Now, don't get me wrong, you cannot attain salvation with just works.
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Mari
At the cross You beckon me. Draw me gently to my knees. I am lost for words, so lost in love, I'm sweetly broken, wholly surrendered.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 5:38:24 PM
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Eutychus
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I agree with Mari, works is evidence that we are in Christ, not the means to achieve salvation. Because of our salvation by grace, we love His people and, therefore, seek to minister to them and with them. In addition, we will have a desire to share the Gospel with the lost that they might know the joy that only He brings.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 7:12:41 PM
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mvic
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"Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do what my Father in Heaven wants them to do." Matthew 7:21.
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.” 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself.” Matthew 22:37-39.
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:27-31.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 7:32:06 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
James 2:20 Faith without works is dead.
Just wondering what is the works here he speaks of.
It goes like this..
When I ask anything of the Lord,
Jesus said,
Mr 11:24
Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray , believe that you “receive” …them, =whatever things
and ....you will have them.
The work is... making sure you never doubt it. =Faith without works is dead
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/13/2009 8:03:33 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Very Good:
Here's my take on works.
Matthew 5
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven
John 6
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 14
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
Now this is what I believe that we as Christians are to be doing. Everything we know that Christ did we should be reflecting that in ourself to others and believing in Jesus Christ in every promise He made to us.
Funny how each one of these scriptures bring us right back to faith.
I see many Christians missing this and that is very disturbing to my spirit. I see many who say they have faith and then hear them worrying about certian things. (doubting)
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
I am very pleased to see that you all get it! Priase the Lord
God Bless
R.Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/14/2009 7:31:56 AM
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cposey
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I know this scripture has caused a lot of controversy among the body. And i used to feel like it was almost to deep to understand. But when i broke it down here is what i understand. Faith is believing without seeing. A work is an action. Death is the result of sin. So sin will cause us to die(spiritually), so then how can any type of action exist. If we believe(faith) that Christ died for all of our sins and we have been washed clean, than the action dictated to us is to not be bound by the result of sin which is death. I think this speaks more to the times where people struggle with "dry" times or allow their flesh to control them instead of their faith in Christ
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/14/2009 7:40:17 AM
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leftwing
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
James 2:20 Faith without works is dead.
Just wondering what is the works here he speaks of.
For a moment there I thought I had an inspiried thought.. that 'works' is the opposite of faith. (not to imply wrongness)
To explain, faith is the promise of something not seen... etc. Works is that which is seen because a promise has been made.
????
Just me thinking with my fingers.
sorry
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/14/2009 2:04:59 PM
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writerchick
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Not to completely throw this thread off track, but I see mostly spiritual responses here. What about in the physical? I don't think God meant to limit it to the spiritual side of things only.
To make this tangible. I always had faith that I would be a published author. But I still had to write a book. If I had not done the work, then my faith would have come to nothing. It would've been dead.
I see where you're going with your thought, leftwing. I think in that case, works becomes "opposite" if it's trying to take the place of faith.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/14/2009 2:20:00 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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Faith without works can be seen as a description of Jesus. He lived His faith in His Father. He believed-he worked out those beliefs while walking this earth.
Faith is not idle. It is not merely head knowledge. Works are the result of knowing Jesus. We know Him, we desire to be like Him because that brings us closer to Him and opens us up to more understanding. It is rooted in love.
He is love and our actions are a result of the love we have for Him pouring through us to others.
If works are not evident-love is not there, which means a person is spiritually dead.
Works-preaching and teaching the gospel, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, restoring the fallen, it all equals love.
Love has to tie into faith, you can't have one without the other.
The works are not for our benefit (we will receive the reward for it in heaven), they are to glorify God and show others the love of Jesus.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/14/2009 5:01:00 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Faith without works can be seen as a description of Jesus. He lived His faith in His Father. He believed-he worked out those beliefs while walking this earth.
Faith is not idle. It is not merely head knowledge. Works are the result of knowing Jesus. We know Him, we desire to be like Him because that brings us closer to Him and opens us up to more understanding. It is rooted in love.
He is love and our actions are a result of the love we have for Him pouring through us to others.
If works are not evident-love is not there, which means a person is spiritually dead.
Works-preaching and teaching the gospel, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, restoring the fallen, it all equals love.
Love has to tie into faith, you can't have one without the other.
The works are not for our benefit (we will receive the reward for it in heaven), they are to glorify God and show others the love of Jesus.
Well put, excellent post!
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/14/2009 6:11:12 PM
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small_creation
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"Now these three things remain -- faith, hope and love -- but the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13
A popular verse for weddings. My hubby and I talk about matters in love and marriage all the time. Seems we can't get away from it since so many marriages around us are failing. Well, and we are married.
One of our observations is that so many people think that love is only a noun, when we know it is definitely a verb as well. You cannot expect to love and be loved without "working" at it. You must submit, compromise, communicate and forgive on a daily basis to be good at the lovin. These are things you do, no?
Hope is the same way. You must "work" at keeping hope alive. For example, a lover goes away to war. The lover left at home writes letters, takes care of matters of the home, family and friends while the loved one is away. In this way, they keep up the hope that life will resume as they left it, once the lover returns.
So why would faith escape being an outward expression? Myself? I purposefully live out my faith, by actively pursuing the Great Commission, by testifying, by praying and praising, encouraging one another, etc..
Works to me, is the active expression of fulfilling the faith you feel and wish to keep.
13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Philippians 3:13, 14
j
< Message edited by small_creation -- 10/14/2009 6:20:51 PM >
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/16/2009 10:39:37 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Well said.
And not arguing about who is right or wrong , but teaching out of love.
Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word of God.
God Bless
R. Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/17/2009 5:38:10 AM
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agapist
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Faith without works is a misnomer; if one truly had faith in Christ, that grace would naturally produce good works.
THIS VERSE IS FOR THE RELIGIOUS.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/17/2009 12:02:32 PM
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Judson50
Posts: 68
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
James 2:20 Faith without works is dead.
Just wondering what is the works here he speaks of. I have my own idea whats yours?
Dr Mark and RCJames, I know you will be a big help here, so you can go first.
Starting a tread to get us all to start thinking.
God Bless
R. Dove
Living out the faith. Not just saying it.
I liken it to, if you have a different vocabulary, dress and personality when you are not with "church people", then your works are like filthy rags - because THAT is NOT who you are. Rather you are putting on a counterfeit mask of deception to look good in front of other "Christians" and you are living religion and NOT loving Jesus.
That is my $0.02.
I would like to add, I know many people who wouldn't say "cr**" at church, but say "Sh**" outside of church. That is hypocrisy. I believe you should walk, talk, and act the same at church as you should outside of church.
Now, the argument would be, "Well I think people should be respectful at church". I would agree; however, I also say that the "respect" should permeate your life and you should have the same respect in and outside of Church. To do otherwise makes one a pharisee, hypocrite and downright religious.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/18/2009 8:04:29 AM
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leftwing
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quote:
I see where you're going with your thought, leftwing. I think in that case, works becomes "opposite" if it's trying to take the place of faith.
Thank you but the thought was more along the lines of two sides of the same coin. Anyway we needn't get bogged down. I think in our hearts we know and understand a lot more than we are able to put into words.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/19/2009 8:00:44 AM
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lhtytlp
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Faith without works is dead! What a wonderful Scripture! Before we get to that, we must know what is Faith! It's is said in Hebrew 11: 1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It's just amazing and ex-ordinary blessing for a child of God to exercise the faith that non-believer couldn't even seen!
See the case of Daniel, in Chapter 6, people are against him because of the belief he had in God, they tried to put him in trouble! However, see how he reacted, in 6: 10, "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; andd his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime"
That's kind of faith with action, apart from his belief, he put prayers into action as usual! That's kind of attitude we should follow, regardless of situation in life, we must believe in God first, then do what-so-ever we could within our capacity for that, then God will and purpose shall reveal!
Hope this may create profound understanding! 
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/19/2009 6:33:26 PM
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Liv4Him06
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Thanks for starting this thread DoveMinistries.
One thing that was ground breaking for me was the study of the book of 1John. All through the book it teaches us ways to know if we're truly His. It teaches us how to examine ourselves.
Here are some scriptures that speak volumes to me:
*1John 1:6 - If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and the truth is not in us.
*1 John 2:3-6 - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever [keeps] His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
*1John 2:15 - Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
*1 John 3:24 - Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him, And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
*1John 5:2-3 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
In conclusion, I know we are not saved by works -- the book of Romans demonstrates this thoroughly. But if we claim we are one of God's children, our lives will definitely bear fruit. There will be sanctification taking place. We will be new creatures in Christ. The old man passes away and we become new.
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"Death is half disarmed when the pleasures and interests of the flesh are first denied."
—Richard Baxter
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/20/2009 5:44:17 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Faith without works is a misnomer; if one truly had faith in Christ, that grace would naturally produce good works.
THIS VERSE IS FOR THE RELIGIOUS.
I would like to take this rare opportunity to agree with you. However, I don't understand the second sentence, which is clearly important since it is capitalized.
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RE: Faith without works is dead. - 10/20/2009 5:54:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
James 2:20 Faith without works is dead.
Just wondering what is the works here he speaks of. I have my own idea whats yours?
Dr Mark and RCJames, I know you will be a big help here, so you can go first.
Starting a tread to get us all to start thinking.
God Bless
R. Dove
I have studied this passage probably more than any other single passage in the Bible.
Let me say that I do not believe "faith without works is dead" means that works are required for salvation. And I do not believe it means that faith without works is false, nongenuine, nonexistent faith. I believe the term means that faith, in the life of a believe, must be active, lived out in order to be productive and useful.
IOW, if you want to be a fruitful Christian, you must have works to get fruit.
I do not believe the context of James 2 is salvation or evangelistic. I would be happy to address it further if someone wants.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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