Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. not martyred
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/20/2009 4:30:49 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
Amils in general seem to believe that all Christians who die will be in the group reigning with Christ in the heavenly millennium. However is this what the Bible really says?
Revelation 20:4-5 -- I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Doesn't this seem to imply that only those who were martyred for the faith will be in that position, and the rest of the believing dead and all unbelieving dead will sleep until Christ returns?
Well, it seems to imply that those who had "been beheaded" were those who "not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark". Seems to be a pretty specific group of folks. Not those who have been "martyred" over "all of history", but those who are "beheaded" for failing to "worship the beast and take his mark" during a specific period of (future) history.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/20/2009 9:44:42 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, PolarBear.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
Amils in general seem to believe that all Christians who die will be in the group reigning with Christ in the heavenly millennium. However is this what the Bible really says?
Revelation 20:4-5 -- I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Doesn't this seem to imply that only those who were martyred for the faith will be in that position, and the rest of the believing dead and all unbelieving dead will sleep until Christ returns?
Of course Paul speaks about departing and being "with Christ" -- but could that be in the context of his own persecution?
What do you think? If indeed it is saying what I think it says, that should be an enormous incentive to give your life for Christ. Being involved in such a reign for the remainder of earth's history would be a lot of fun. 
You've conveniently stopped at verse 5; one should also read verse 6:
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV
This verse talks about ALL the others upon whom the second death has no authority. We are told later on in the 20th chapter what this second death is:
Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
The second death is "being cast into the Lake of Fire (and Sulfur)." Can a person be rescued from this Lake of Fire "according to his works?" NO! That is decided only by faith in Yeshua` the Messiah. (Gal. 3:1-26; Eph. 2:8, 9) HOWEVER, degrees of punishment may be assigned by judging one's works, and that's what is going on in verses 12-15.
Therefore, the first resurrection is the resurrection of the Just (or rather, the Justified by God), and this second resurrection described above that occurs AFTER the 1000-year incarceration of haSatan is for the Unjust's judgment and assignment to the Lake of Fire.
I was noticing too, though, that the phrase "whosoever was not found written in the book of life" MAY imply that there could be those who ARE found written in the book of life. Not because of their faith in Yeshua`, but because their names were never blotted out in the first place! This could therefore account for the innocent, and these may be given a different future than to be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/20/2009 10:58:50 AM
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PolarBear
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ManimalX: Perhaps, but my (still somewhat limited) understanding of amil theology is that the beast represents persecution from all periods of church history. Assuming that is the case, I think we (or any other generation) could fit here. The biggest problem I see with that view is that the beast was thrown into the lake of fire in chapter 19, seemingly showing him to be a person. Though I suppose that the literal man of lawlessness could be the final incarnation of a beast that spans the church age, and he is the one that would be thrown in literally.
Roy: I don't believe that the Bible teaches separate bodily resurrections for the just and unjust - that is what drove me away from premil. We ALL will be in front of the Great White Throne. I think Scripture is pretty clear on that. I agree the second death has no power on us, or any Christian. The question is, could there be a different "intermediate state" (between death and the Second Coming) for those who die for their faith?
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Tip of the day: "You" has three letters, not one. It is spelled Y-O-U.
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/20/2009 11:13:25 AM
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Intrepidus
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Retrobyter,
Well said. The first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20 (which you call the 'resurrection of the just') is referred to in similar terms throughout Paul's writing.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins... But God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," (Eph 2:4-6)
"In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." (Col 2:11-12)
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things." (Col 3:1-2)
Clearly, the believer has experienced a resurrection of sorts. It's not the physical resurrection that will occur when Christ returns (1 Thes 4:16). Rather, it is a spiritual resurrection. Paul states that believers have died with Christ, been raised from spiritual death, and are even now seated with him in the heavenly realms. The apocalyptic equivalent of this teaching is what we find in Revelation 20.
In Him,
-Intrepidus
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/20/2009 12:29:46 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, PolarBear.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
...
Roy: I don't believe that the Bible teaches separate bodily resurrections for the just and unjust - that is what drove me away from premil. We ALL will be in front of the Great White Throne. I think Scripture is pretty clear on that. I agree the second death has no power on us, or any Christian. The question is, could there be a different "intermediate state" (between death and the Second Coming) for those who die for their faith?
I can understand your confusion.
I'm sure that there were some students of the Tanakh (the OT) who didn't believe that the prophecies of the Messiah could be in two stages. It's like looking at two mountains on the same line of sight. They look to be pretty close to being in the same vicinity, but when one looks at these same two mountains from an orthogonal view, they might be miles apart, or in this case, a couple of thousand years apart!
Just as now we recognize that the Messiah's coming was and will be in two stages, His first advent or coming and His second advent or coming, so too the resurrections of the Just and the Unjust may appear to us to be in the same vicinity of time, although in reality they are separated by 1000 years.
Look at I Cor. 15:19-28:
1 Cor 15:19-28
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
The three resurrections can be found here:
23b: "Christ the firstfruits" (the original resurrection of ONE, this doesn't really count as the resurrection of other people).
23c: "They that are Christ's at His coming" (the resurrection of the Justified--the ones who BELONG to the Messiah; the first resurrection).
24: Then cometh the end ... when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... till he hath put all enemies under his feet." (the resurrection of everyone else; the second resurrection).
John 5:25-30
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV
There are two resurrections mentioned here. Yes, I know the objection: "ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice" implies to the objector that there is but one calling, but that is an assumption! Who's to say that He doesn't call TWICE? They will still "all ... hear His voice!" He will be calling to "those who have done good" (which is only possible if the Spirit of God lives in them and works through them), and then at a later time calling to "those who have done evil?"
Acts 24:14-15
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
KJV
But, verse 15 is worded in the Greek slightly different than translated:
15 Elpida echoon eis ton Theon heen kai autoi houtoi prosdechontai, anastasin mellein esesthai dikaioon te kai adikoon.
Literally, this translates to "hope I-have into the God which and/also they themselves allow, a-resurrection there-shall be of-just also and of-unjust." The connective "te kai" means "in addition to" and means more than just a single resurrection of both the just and the unjust; it implies a resurrection of the just AND ANOTHER resurrection of the unjust! The translation here is unfortunate because it is probably the source of the confusion. Technically, it should be rendered "both of just and of unjust," rather than "of both the just and the unjust." This is because the "of" comes from the case of the words and is not a separate word itself, and both dikaioon and adikoon are in the same case!
It's not "a resurrection of both just and unjust"; it's " both a resurrection of just and ... of unjust." It's a subtle difference that most miss and unless one diagrams the sentence, it's difficult to explain.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/20/2009 12:47:50 PM
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Intrepidus
Posts: 104
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Ruthie,
The term 'amillennial' literally means "no millennium." That's not a very accurate label. Amillennialists do believe in a millennium. It's just that they interpret it as a figuratively long period of time, not a literal 1,000 years. Specifically, they believe it is the period between Christ's First and Second Coming, more commonly known as the 'church age.' During this time, Christ is reigning from heaven and we with him (Eph 1:20-22; 2:6). Satan is bound from deceiving the nations so that the gospel can go out and make disciples of all nations (Rev 20:3; cf. Matt 28:18-20). This of course doesn't mean that Satan has no influence in the world. Quite the contrary, he prowls about as a lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Pe 5:8; 2 Cor 2:11). But the one thing he is specifically bound from doing is deceiving the nations (Matt 12:29; John 12:31).
Anyway, that's a view from 10,000 feet. It will likely generate more questions than it has answered. Obviously, it is very different from the popular view (viz. premillennial dispensationalism). But it was held by many saints throughout church history, from Augustine to the Reformers. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.
In Him,
-Intrepidus
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/21/2009 12:55:13 PM
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Ruthie
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From: Center of the Universe, Canada
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Oh... I had no idea. Your explanation seems pretty straightforward. I have to say though, I don't think that I agree with the Amillenial position. The nations seem pretty deceived to me. I guess it depends on what the word "deceived" implies.
I'm going to research this stuff now. Cool.
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/21/2009 5:14:36 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Ruthie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruthie
Oh... I had no idea. Your explanation seems pretty straightforward. I have to say though, I don't think that I agree with the Amillenial position. The nations seem pretty deceived to me. I guess it depends on what the word "deceived" implies.
I'm going to research this stuff now. Cool.
LOL! Right on the button! That was an excellent response! My feelings exactly.
In the love of the Messiah,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/21/2009 10:49:57 PM
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Intrepidus
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruthie
Oh... I had no idea. Your explanation seems pretty straightforward.
Thanks. I know it's a lot like drinking from a fire-hose. I'm glad that some of it made sense!
quote:
I have to say though, I don't think that I agree with the Amillenial position. The nations seem pretty deceived to me. I guess it depends on what the word "deceived" implies.
Prior to Christ's advent, when the blessings of God were reserved almost exclusively for the nation of Israel, Satan enjoyed dominion over the rest of the world. When he tempted Christ in the desert, Satan offered him all the kingdoms of the world in return for his fealty (Matt 4:8-9). They were his to give, and Christ didn't argue the point. Scripture even refers to Satan as the "god" and "prince" of this world (2 Cor 4:4; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). John affirms this when he writes, "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
How then could the Great Commission ever succeed? If Christians were to make disciples of all nations (Matt 28:18-19), something had to be done about the god of all nations that had previously deceived them. As Jesus so eloquently explained: "How can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house" (Matt 12:26-29). The gospel was about to be brought to all nations. Just before Jesus' ascension, he told his disciples, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8). In order to ensure their success, the strong man who was over the nations had to be bound. That's exactly what is depicted in Revelation 20:
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (vv. 1-3)
The exact same "binding" is addressed by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." (vv. 7-8)
The parallels between these two passages are striking. Lawlessness is at work, but is being restrained. Though Satan prowls about as a roaring lion (1 Pe 5:8), he is bound from deceiving the nations. Eventually, that which holds the man of lawlessness back will be taken out of the way. Satan will be released from the Abyss to deceive the nations once more. Paul even states the "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing" (vv. 9-10). If I didn't believe in divine inspiration, I'd think that Paul and John collaborated on this.
Now, you say that "the nations seem pretty deceived." That's a scary thought. For if you are correct, then perhaps Satan has been set lose, and the Man of Lawlessness will soon appear. I hope that's not the case!
quote:
I'm going to research this stuff now. Cool.
That's the best thing you could possibly do. Feel free to ask me any questions as you prayerfully and thoughtfully examine these matters.
In Him,
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/21/2009 10:56:36 PM >
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/22/2009 12:16:54 PM
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PolarBear
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Intrepidus -- that was a great explanation!
However, we got off topic pretty quick. This thread is primarily for amils to answer how they see the future of the souls of martyrs vs Christians with "normal" deaths. Thanks!
_____________________________
Tip of the day: "You" has three letters, not one. It is spelled Y-O-U.
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RE: Amils: The future of saints who are martyred vs. no... - 10/26/2009 2:58:31 PM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
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Revelation 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here, and I will show you things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look on like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like to an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and on the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightning and thunder and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like to crystal: and in the middle of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.
Revelation 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell on them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe comes quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell on their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give you thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which are, and were, and are to come; because you have taken to you your great power, and have reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward to your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, see, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water
Revelation 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens, and you that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.
Revelation 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from now on: Yes, said the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and on the cloud one sat like to the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 19
9 After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits on the throne, and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and from where came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the middle of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the wine press, even to the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I tried to place the events into a chronological order, to hopefully clarify things a little. Notice in Revelation 4:4, and on the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (They were already clothed in white raiment.)
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. ( How could they “follow the Lamb wherever he goes.”, if the Lamb isn’t walking the earth? )
(To be without fault, and before the throne of God, they must already have on white robes.)
Revelation 6:11, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And white robes were given to every one of them; ( They were given white robes.) Why where their robes not already washed in the blood of the lamb? What was the testimony they held? Was the blood of the lamb not available yet?
In Revelation 4:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, ( They washed their own robes.)
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death. ( What was the word of their testimony?)
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
( White raiment, white robes, fine linen, the righteousness of saints, are all the same thing. All righteousness “white robes“, are the result of the blood of the Lamb.)
The 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth in Revelation 14, are the first fruits ( first ripe ) of the harvest, and they stood on mount Sion, before the throne of God. The rest of the harvest takes place in Revelation 14:14, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Dead or alive, those who come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb will be harvested from the earth. This is the first resurrection. The first fruit, and the harvest shall reign with Christ a thousand years, along with their brothers who were resting under the alter. But the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished.
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Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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