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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 1:26:31 AM
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B1inhim
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/31/2006
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quote:
However, and with much sadness, I feel the only thing wrong with your synopsis is that: Yep, God does not respect the lives of those who would not be Raptured with us. Sorry, yet not sorry. Please stop judging God with mortal mindset. I had to learn how not to, as must you.
God has tolerated mankind's stupidity far longer than any mortal would, could be capable of. Any one of us, you, myself, or any other, would have snuffed mankind, without qualm, hundreds of years ago, so that by what we call year 2009, only the perfect people would survive, which would amount to the number zero. God reigns, and rules, to His Glory, and that is that.
I am sad to see that there are so many people that are so indifferent to what I shared...
So, according to your analogy, BEFORE the GT happens, Lord Jesus is going to do what Apostle Paul said and all of the people that do not get to go will have made up their minds as to being saved or not being saved in Christ?...
No, if you carefully read the two prior posts to this one right now,and look at what is being said, by connecting the dots... Lord Jesus shows a sign in the sky one time during the consiquences of the opening of the 6th seal and then again when the Beast has sit on the throne for 1 whole hour, He shows up on a white horse...
Pre-tribulatinal teaching has come and gone... and if it hasn't, thos who are ready will go... 50% of those who believe that they are going, in fact, do not go. They could be out buying books on spiritual growth or even telling other brothers and sisters that they watch too much TV...
We have a duty to live in Love and that is the banner that this servant lives by... This servant is just a messanger...
An African pastor was overwhelmed by rebels who demanded that he renounce his faith. He refused. The night before they took his life, he wrote the following lines on a scrap of paper:
I am part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed." I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I've stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I am a disciple of His. I won't look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still. My past is redeemed, my present makes sense, and my future is secure. I am finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tame visions, mundane talking, chintzy giving, and dwarfed goals!
I no longer need preeminence, prosperity, position, promotions, plaudits, or popularity. I don't have to be right, first, tops, recognized, praised, regarded, or rewarded. I now live by presence, lean by faith, love by patience, lift by prayer, and labor by power.
My face is set, my gait is fast, my goal is heaven, my road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions few, my Guide reliable, my mission clear. I cannot be bought , compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, diluted, or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander in the maze of mediocrity.
I won't give up, shut up, let up, or burn up till I've preached up, prayed up, paid up, stored up, and stayed up for the cause of Christ.
I am a disciple of Jesus. I must go till He comes, give till I drop, preach till all know, and work till He stops.
And when He comes to get His own, He'll have no problems recognizing me. My colors will be clear.
Source Unknown
Thanks for your input.
In Him
Love,
Brother Jerry
< Message edited by B1inhim -- 10/31/2009 1:50:04 AM >
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 1:40:05 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: B1inhim
quote:
However, and with much sadness, I feel the only thing wrong with your synopsis is that: Yep, God does not respect the lives of those who would not be Raptured with us. Sorry, yet not sorry. Please stop judging God with mortal mindset. I had to learn how not to, as must you.
God has tolerated mankind's stupidity far longer than any mortal would, could be capable of. Any one of us, you, myself, or any other, would have snuffed mankind, without qualm, hundreds of years ago, so that by what we call year 2009, only the perfect people would survive, which would amount to the number zero. God reigns, and rules, to His Glory, and that is that.
I am sad to see that there are so many people that are so indifferent to what I shared...
So, according to your analogy, BEFORE the GT happens, Lord Jesus is going to do what Apostle Paul said and all of the people that do not get to go will have made up their minds as to being saved or not being saved in Christ?...
No, if you carefully read the two prior posts to this one right now,and look at what is being said, by connecting the dots... Lord Jesus shows a sign in the sky one time during the consiquences of the opening of the 6th seal and then again when the Beast has sit on the throne for 1 whole hour, He shows up on a white horse...
Pre-tribulatinal teaching has come and gone... and if it hasn't, thos who are ready will go... 50% of those who believe that they are going, in fact, do not go. They could be out buying books on spiritual growth or even telling other brothers and sisters that they watch too much TV...
We have a duty to live in Love and that is the banner that this servant lives by... This servant is just a messanger...
An African pastor was overwhelmed by rebels who demanded that he renounce his faith. He refused. The night before they took his life, he wrote the following lines on a scrap of paper:
I am part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed." I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I've stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I am a disciple of His. I won't look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still. My past is redeemed, my present makes sense, and my future is secure. I am finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tame visions, mundane talking, chintzy giving, and dwarfed goals!
I no longer need preeminence, prosperity, position, promotions, plaudits, or popularity. I don't have to be right, first, tops, recognized, praised, regarded, or rewarded. I now live by presence, lean by faith, love by patience, lift by prayer, and labor by power.
My face is set, my gait is fast, my goal is heaven, my road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions few, my Guide reliable, my mission clear. I cannot be bought , compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, diluted, or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander in the maze of mediocrity.
I won't give up, shut up, let up, or burn up till I've preached up, prayed up, paid up, stored up, and stayed up for the cause of Christ.
I am a disciple of Jesus. I must go till He comes, give till I drop, preach till all know, and work till He stops.
And when He comes to get His own, He'll have no problems recognizing me. My colors will be clear.
Source Unknown
Thanks for your input.
In Him
Love,
Brother Jerry
Greetings
quote:
Pre-tribulatinal teaching has come and gone... and if it hasn't, thos who are ready will go... 50% of those who believe that they are going, in fact, do not go. They could be out buying books on spiritual growth or even telling other brothers and sisters that they watch too much TV...
We have a duty to live in Love and that is the banner that this servant lives by... This servant is just a messanger...
An African pastor was overwhelmed by rebels who demanded that he renounce his faith. He refused. The night before they took his life, he wrote the following lines on a scrap of paper:
I am part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed." I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I've stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I am a disciple of His.
Our prayers are always with those on the front lines in other countries that are hostile to the faith...
But do you have any thing to share with us about
Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church?
quote:
Pre-tribulatinal teaching has come and gone... and if it hasn't, those who are ready will go... 50% of those who believe that they are going, in fact, do not go.
Then how would you describe "when" the wrath of God comes in ones life, but if you don’t believe that salvation frees us from the wrath to come, then when does wrath begin?
What I believe folks miss in reference to the wrath of God is when the subtle indicator of the wrath of God begins, the first indicator would be a falling away based on a series of verses spoken by Jesus, speaking of the very same first indicator
Joh 10:28 - Show Context
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 - Show Context
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
If one finds themselves ….falling away… then means they have been Snatched out of either Jesus hand or My (Jesus) Father's hand…
And when that falling away occurs = the wrath of God begins… I don’t believe there is a waiting period.
If the falling away is not the indicator that is the beginning of the wrath of God, …
Then how would wrath be measured… from beginning to end?
There are plenty of warnings and plenty of examples in the Old Testament to choose from
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 3:18:33 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Yeee-Haaa!! Jerry, Well Said. Much to Ponder. After a 'once over,' I agree with a bunch of what I see you saying.
I do feel you err about Jesus coming for His body. IMO, He resurrected it, and took it home with Him, when He departed 8 days before Shavuot/Pentecost.
Your two post's are long enough to require a twice (or more) over, to chew the whole offering meal.
Keep the watch and witness to as many as you/me/we can, until Jesus Harpoonzo's us out of here. Yeee-Haaa!! Keep the Pam handy.
What a ride, life is, to learn from.
In Him, Blessing. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 5:30:00 PM
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B1inhim
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
There are plenty of warnings and plenty of examples in the Old Testament to choose from
That is a major problem with what I call "OLD LEAVEN" contaminated bread...
We are living in the NT and any examples that you might want to apply to your Pre-Tribulational teaching is not NT ready...
What is offered is a gift that is for all to have...kinda like the Gifts of Holy Spirit...gifts are either used, abused or ignored... the one that is for this subject clearly defines the "harpazo" as not taking place anytime before the GT starts... that teaching (the Pre-trib rapture) is full of carnality, flesh and ear tickeling "feel goodies"...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 11:39:51 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 805
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, B1inhim.
quote:
ORIGINAL: B1inhim
quote:
There are plenty of warnings and plenty of examples in the Old Testament to choose from
That is a major problem with what I call "OLD LEAVEN" contaminated bread...
We are living in the NT and any examples that you might want to apply to your Pre-Tribulational teaching is not NT ready...
What is offered is a gift that is for all to have...kinda like the Gifts of Holy Spirit...gifts are either used, abused or ignored... the one that is for this subject clearly defines the "harpazo" as not taking place anytime before the GT starts... that teaching (the Pre-trib rapture) is full of carnality, flesh and ear tickeling "feel goodies"...
Oh, so THAT'S your problem! God's Word is the COMPLETE record from Genesis to Revelation! The OT supplied the Scriptures that were quoted in the NT; and the NT is the explanation and part of the fulfillment of the OT.
One should NEVER discard the OT out of hand! The NT is totally misunderstood without the foundation of the OT. Without the Tanakh (the OT), the B'rit Chadashah (the NT or rather the New Covenant) can easily be twisted into whatever the weird imaginations of human beings can concoct. One absolutely MUST use the prophecies of the Tanakh to come to proper conclusions about the language in the NT. For instance, one cannot truly know about the Gospel without an understanding of Yesha`yahu's (Isaiah's) prophecy. After all, the Gospel is incomplete without the understanding of the Kingdom of Isra'el under Sh'mu'el, Daviyd, and Shlomo (Samuel, David, and Solomon) for it is the Kingdom which will be restored and Yesha`yahu said that the "Gospel" is "Thy God reigneth." (Isa. 52:7) Until you have that framework, the rest of the good news is incomplete! The definition of the Gospel is NOT found in I Cor. 15:1-4. That's not a definition because the Gospel is MORE than that! Why do you think that Yochanan the Immerser and Yeshua` Himself spoke very early in His ministry of the "Good News about the Kingdom?" (Mark 1:14-15; Matt. 4:23)
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
Matt 4:23
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
KJV
This wasn't a different Gospel than what Paul preached because one can look up the verses from the Tanakh, particularly from the prophecies, and see what Paul meant in Romans 10:13-15:
Rom 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV
Joel 2:30-32
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
KJV
Isa 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
Furthermore, God's Kingdom is far more than just His control over His Creation; it's talking about Him actually being Isra'el's KING once again and ultimately King of the whole World--the King of Kings--through His Representative, the Messiah--the Anointed of God or the Selected by God to be King! That was the FIRST good news about the Resurrection of the Messiah! It was the answer to the age-old question, 'How will the prophecies about the Suffering Messiah (sometimes known as the "Ben Yosef" or the "Son of Joseph") be rectified with the prophecies about the Victorious Messiah (sometimes known as the "Ben Daviyd" or the "Son of David")?' The answer was, "The Messiah will do BOTH! He will first suffer and die for the sins of the people, but He will be resurrected to still be the Victor and sit upon the throne of His father Daviyd!"
And that is just ONE of the many truths that the OT is necessary to support! It would behoove you NOT to think of the OT as the "Old leaven."
Now, I'm not pre-Trib either, but that stance should NOT be your defense against pre-Trib.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/1/2009 1:15:15 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: B1inhim
quote:
There are plenty of warnings and plenty of examples in the Old Testament to choose from
That is a major problem with what I call "OLD LEAVEN" contaminated bread...
We are living in the NT and any examples that you might want to apply to your Pre-Tribulational teaching is not NT ready...
What is offered is a gift that is for all to have...kinda like the Gifts of Holy Spirit...gifts are either used, abused or ignored... the one that is for this subject clearly defines the "harpazo" as not taking place anytime before the GT starts... that teaching (the Pre-trib rapture) is full of carnality, flesh and ear tickeling "feel goodies"...
Greetings
quote:
the one that is for this subject clearly defines the "harpazo" as not taking place anytime before the GT starts
First it is not my teaching, and second is God never changes, and all scripture... is inspired, especially the OT
And in addition there are a least 2 or 3 examples in the NT alone of harpazo concerning Jesus as given to us in the narrations alone depicting 2 or 3 different scenarios
quote:
the one that is for this subject clearly defines the "harpazo" as not taking place anytime before the GT starts... that teaching (the Pre-trib rapture) is full of carnality, flesh and ear tickling "feel goodies"...
Since the subject is on Pre-Wrath Rapture, that teaching (the Pre-trib rapture) is full of carnality, flesh and ear tickling "feel goodies"...
I would like to get your opinion further... and ask a second time...?
Again, allow me to rephrase...
How then would you describe....as you mentioned by the Spirit of God = (What is offered is a gift that is for all to have...kind of like the Gifts of Holy Spirit...).... how would you describe "when" (or at what point) the wrath of God comes to one “who has fallen” = (or an x- believers) life,
Re 2:5 - Show Context
Remember therefore from where you have “”fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you “quickly” and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.
As was mentioned in post 7 = I don’t believe there is a waiting period.
However It seems truthful to me that before one can take a stance on Pre-Wrath they should at least be able to reiterate weather the GT is before or after the falling away, reason being that the “falling away” only evolves believers, we see that already occurred a long time “before” the GT as Paul reiterated in 2 Thess 2
BUT
If the OT doesn’t work ....We have at least 2 or 3 examples alone Jesus gave us in the NT that are written to show us the exact scenario of the "harpazo" as given to us by the narrator.
But here are a couple of examples from the OT
La 2:21 - Show Context
"Young and old lie On the ground in the streets; My virgins and my young men Have fallen by the sword; You have slain them in the day of Your anger, You have slaughtered and not pitied.
See there.... when God has slain them in the day of anger,
What I see there by the Spirit of God is not mentioned... but it tell us by revelation that process that came to pass in the day of anger...had to “begin” sometime “beforehand”,
Therefore the wrath of God begins beforehand... and ends in the day of HIS anger
He just doesn’t POP up out the clear blue and for no reason.
Again
Ge 6:13 - Show Context
And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, = the end
for the earth is filled with violence through them; = from the beginning
and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
The wrath of God begins beforehand not at the GT = the end
The wrath of God begins at day 1 of the 7 years = which is the beginning
The end from the beginning
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 11/1/2009 1:23:01 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/7/2009 11:34:55 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
1: What does prewrath mean?
Before the Wrath of God comes with the "desolations (which) have been decreed" -Dan 9:26, and having been decreed a long time ago need to be stored - in a Sealed Scroll.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
2: When does this prewrath gathering occur?
On the Day of the Lord -which NO ONE, not even Jesus (and not even you, Bob), knows- which is coincidental with the sixth Seal's breaking before the Scroll is opened.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
3: What events precede the prewrath gathering?
- The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 (Rev 13:14)
- The Great Tribulation (Rev 13:15-17)
- The sun/moon/star event
- 3 Angels (which is why the wicked of the sixth Seal know God is coming)
- Jesus on the clouds.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/8/2009 12:51:39 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi Sinner-Saint...long time no see.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/10/2009 9:16:42 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
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Hi Bob, and I let this thread lay for a couple of days just to see if there was any life in this thread... so, seeing that it is dormant, I thought I'd kick-start it with a query: what do you think about my answers to your questions?
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/10/2009 10:09:59 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi Saint…well the purpose of my question originally was to give raysnchrist a platform to express himself about his views on a pre-wrath rapture of the church.
In regards to your response, I have agreement with all you have stated, even down to the point that not even I know when it will occur. 
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/10/2009 10:23:35 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
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Oh, I thought you were date setting when you said this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I see pre-wrath as where the gathering occurs either Tishri 1,370 days prior to the end or on Tishri 1, 10 days prior to the end, where the end occurs on Yom Kippur.
I've always thought it was 370 days prior but I'm not so sure right now.
While I like the idea of the Fall Festivals to show the sequence-of-events for the end-times, I don't think they will come in exact time that the Festivals are on earth.
I peg the Rapture as coming with the Last Trumpet of Rosh ha-Shanah; on the first day of a two-day Day of the Lord.
Following that, just like the Days of Awe, comes God's Wrath.
Then there is the Day of Atonement or as one Jewish author puts it - the Day of At-One-Ment; this would align with the revelation of Christ Jesus as the Messiah King of the Millennium.
After that is the Festival of Booths which would mirror the ingathering of the Remnant Jews.
But I don't put a time table between the Rapture and the revelation of Christ as the Messiah King to the Jews in days like you do.
1. It cannot be 370 because the first two Woes together take 1 year, six months, a day and an hour.
2. Nor can it be 1,370 because the whole of the second half is only 1,260 days... and the Rapture happens at some nebulous point after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation - but at least a year and a half -at a minimum- before the end of the one 'seven' and the battle at Armageddon.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/11/2009 12:48:57 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 805
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint!
Welcome back! We missed your spark!
While I was reading your post, a thought occurred to me: Perhaps that's why "no man knoweth the day or the hour!" I'm referring to the usage of the Jewish calendar as well as the Jewish feast days. With the months being determined by the lunar cycle, which does not align with our solar year and the rigidity of our months on that solar year, it's possible for the holidays to start at different dates on our calendar. Furthermore, the traditional way for determining a new moon is to actually SEE the first sign of the sliver of the moon! If the new evening was cloudy, that sighting could be delayed! Thus, it is truly possible that no man knoweth when Rosh haShannah, for instance, starts, because it is possible that the moon was obscured that day! Also, if the timing of the New Moon fell on the cusp of the beginning of a day in Jewish time keeping (i.e., the sighting of the first three stars of that evening), then it may be debatable whether it was the first hour of the new day or the last hour of the previous day!
Just a thought. 
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/11/2009 10:57:32 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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I think you are spot on Roy, in particular the feast of trumpets.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/11/2009 4:22:14 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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So Saint I take it that you agree that the trumpets are in fact a part of Gods wrath.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/11/2009 6:47:16 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
It cannot be 370 because the first two Woes together take 1 year, six months, a day and an hour.
By the way Saint, you seem to be saying that the 6th trumpet will take a year and six months and change to occur; do you base this on Rev 13:15: for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men? If so at least some teaching would indicate that this is the appointed time for it to occur, not the length of time for it's happening
For an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year -- rather as Greek, "for (that is, against) THE hour, and day, and month, and year," namely, appointed by God. The Greek article (teen), put once only before all the periods, implies that the hour in the day, and the day in the month, and the month in the year, and the year itself, had been definitely fixed by God. The article would have been omitted had a sum-total of periods been specified,A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/11/2009 6:54:41 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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ted2, Shalom.
As a Pre-Tribber, I thank you for the excellent references. I had heard that Prince Charles was a prime suspect, and these video's bring out some spooky attributes, and evidence. This information can be very helpful for those who have to endure the Tribulation, and may be helpful in my studies, as I seek the complete picture of events. I must admit, I have been a bit tardy in my search for the 'Who' part of the picture. So far, I have not been able to narrow the candidates down enough to be able to focus on one or two, or even three. PBHO, I must admit is up there, vying for the lead.
I must admit, my 'Pre-Trib' credentials (for lack of a better term) suffered a great set-back when the best I could do for a Rapture, on Yom Teruah, September 19th, only allowed me a bit of lightness in the heart, as I enjoyed my morning Praise and Worship. Waiting for the call kept me from my PM nap, even. (sob wail) All I can say is that Jesus sure missed a great day to bring home the flock, but whatta I know?
When I see a Treaty being signed, for a seven year period, with Israel, and the Arab Nations, allowing Israel to build a Temple on the Mount, and I am still sitting here, in mortality, I will automatically shift to plan B: waiting for 'Solo Graduation,' because IMHO I will not survive until the Beast makes a fool of himself by proclaiming himself god, let alone the last 3.5 years. In a way, being in a deteriorated physical condition does have a couple of 'plus' factors. Should I be right, and graduate with the 'class,' Yeeee-Haaa!!, and if I do Err, and graduate 'Solo-dictorian,' Yeeee-Haaaa!!, I cannot lose, no matter the option. (Oh, and truly, I am smarter than the average bear, who err, and know that the one who calls 'Kitty, Kitty, Kitty, ain't not the Cat-King)  I know, Smarty Pants, Smarty Pants. WoW, haven't used that one for fifty or sixty. Age does cause time to fray a bit on the mind. 
Thanks again, and Keep the watch. In Messiah, His Blessing, and Soon Fly-By Rapturous, Snatching. Yeee-Yaaa!! Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/14/2009 11:18:02 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
So Saint I take it that you agree that the trumpets are in fact a part of Gods wrath.
Gabriel told Daniel that "desolations have been decreed" and that is written in Daniel 9:26.
So where are the desolations stored? I had a moment of inspiration while reading another book about ancient scrolls and how scrolls were sealed in Hebrew culture (they're always sealed on the outside!). It suddenly occurred to me that the desolations are stored on (in) the Scroll.
I do not think the first four Seals are "in" the one 'seven.' Rather, there is a very strong correlation between the first four Seals and the Beginnings of Birth Pains Jesus talks about in the Olivet Discourse.
Taking the birth analogy further, if the one 'seven' is the birth of a new Millennium, then the beginnings of birth pains begin before the "labor" which is the one 'seven.'
I think the first four Seals are revealed in Zechariah 6 as Spirits unleashed to work in the world so as to bring the world to the end-times.
There is no desolation whatsoever with the fifth Seal, and I would put it to the reader that the two earthquakes and other celestial events describing the Day of the Lord up to the Rapture in the sixth Seal don't contain any real Biblical desolation either.
Only when the seventh Seal is broken, which is significant because of the silence in Heaven (and replicated on earth according to Amos) is the Scroll opened, and only after it is opened does any real desolation of Biblical scope go forth.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/14/2009 11:22:09 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
It cannot be 370 because the first two Woes together take 1 year, six months, a day and an hour.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
By the way Saint, you seem to be saying that the 6th trumpet will take a year and six months and change to occur; do you base this on Rev 13:15: for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men? If so at least some teaching would indicate that this is the appointed time for it to occur, not the length of time for it's happening
For an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year -- rather as Greek, "for (that is, against) THE hour, and day, and month, and year," namely, appointed by God. The Greek article (teen), put once only before all the periods, implies that the hour in the day, and the day in the month, and the month in the year, and the year itself, had been definitely fixed by God. The article would have been omitted had a sum-total of periods been specified,A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
Thank-you. I'll have to study that some more. I noted it was worded funny, and took another Christian poster's take on it as being a year and a month plus.
You have helped me by pointing out the Greek "for" as denoting a fixed time rather than a period of time. I'll have to study this some more.
The five months is a period of time for the first Woe though.
My point is that God's Wrath takes time.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/14/2009 11:25:40 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
While I was reading your post, a thought occurred to me: Perhaps that's why "no man knoweth the day or the hour!" I'm referring to the usage of the Jewish calendar as well as the Jewish feast days. With the months being determined by the lunar cycle, which does not align with our solar year and the rigidity of our months on that solar year, it's possible for the holidays to start at different dates on our calendar. Furthermore, the traditional way for determining a new moon is to actually SEE the first sign of the sliver of the moon! If the new evening was cloudy, that sighting could be delayed! Thus, it is truly possible that no man knoweth when Rosh haShannah, for instance, starts, because it is possible that the moon was obscured that day! Also, if the timing of the New Moon fell on the cusp of the beginning of a day in Jewish time keeping (i.e., the sighting of the first three stars of that evening), then it may be debatable whether it was the first hour of the new day or the last hour of the previous day!
Roy,
I think the aspect of uncertainty of when the new moon for Rosh ha-Shanah would be actually observed has some applicability to the Day of the Lord as we look forward to Christ's return.
Mark
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/15/2009 3:08:26 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
The five months is a period of time for the first Woe though.
Most certainly, so we know the trumpets have to extend over at least a 5 month period, which makes the Day of the Lord more than a 24hr period as many would like to make it.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/15/2009 11:30:05 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 805
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
So Saint I take it that you agree that the trumpets are in fact a part of Gods wrath.
Gabriel told Daniel that "desolations have been decreed" and that is written in Daniel 9:26.
So where are the desolations stored? I had a moment of inspiration while reading another book about ancient scrolls and how scrolls were sealed in Hebrew culture (they're always sealed on the outside!). It suddenly occurred to me that the desolations are stored on (in) the Scroll.
I do not think the first four Seals are "in" the one 'seven.' Rather, there is a very strong correlation between the first four Seals and the Beginnings of Birth Pains Jesus talks about in the Olivet Discourse.
Taking the birth analogy further, if the one 'seven' is the birth of a new Millennium, then the beginnings of birth pains begin before the "labor" which is the one 'seven.'
I think the first four Seals are revealed in Zechariah 6 as Spirits unleashed to work in the world so as to bring the world to the end-times.
There is no desolation whatsoever with the fifth Seal, and I would put it to the reader that the two earthquakes and other celestial events describing the Day of the Lord up to the Rapture in the sixth Seal don't contain any real Biblical desolation either.
Only when the seventh Seal is broken, which is significant because of the silence in Heaven (and replicated on earth according to Amos) is the Scroll opened, and only after it is opened does any real desolation of Biblical scope go forth.
However, don't forget that it is the MESSIAH who causes the desolations to occur (Dan. 9:26-27):
Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
The antecedent of the "he's" in verse 27 is the subject in verse 26. It cannot be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 because that is the object of a preposition! That's true in both English and in Hebrew!!! Then, remember the words of Yeshua` (Jesus) in Matthew 23:37-39:
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
The desolations have been poured out upon Dani'el's people for the last 2000 years because of their stubbornness to accept Yeshua` as the Messiah of God; so, the Kingdom was taken from them and given to a future generation who would accept Him as God's Messiah. These desolations were the pogroms, the inquisitions, the Crusades, the harassment they suffered in being chased from town to town and from country to country throughout Europe and Asia all the way up to and including the Holocaust of Nazi Germany. They finally were given a bit of land...once THEIR OWN Land or rather GOD'S Land in which He had allowed them to live...in 1947 and they formed their nation again in 1948, and STILL they suffer at the hands of their enemies--Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Palestinians and Arafat, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, ... and the list goes on! They will not suffer them to live in peace for they will not allow them to LIVE! And yet, there is another promise:
Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV
Mark 13:19-20
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV
From persecution to persecution, there will be reprieves of temporary peace--the days of the great "tribulation" or "affliction" (Greek: "thlipsis" = "pressure") are shortened so that they are never fully exterminated.
Thus, the first half of the last week was fulfilled in the "ministry" (the time Yeshua` offered them the Kingdom) until His ultimate rejection in His crucifixion. We await only the last half of that last week which will occur AFTER the times of the Goyim (Gentiles) is complete. For He promised them, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," implying there WILL come a time when they shall see Him when they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH." ("Blessed the-comer in-name [of] LORD.") "Baruwk haba'" is how a Jew will welcome one into his home" and the phrase "in the name of" means "on the authority of"; thus, this can also be translated "Welcome-to the-comer on-authority [of] LORD." When they can welcome Yeshua` back as God's Representative, THEN He shall return.
Also, one should remember Paul's words about this time in the future:
Rom 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV
When Isra'el was blinded and "cast away" (temporarily, by the way), that action paved the way for the Goyim (the Gentiles) to be reconciled to God! We could be justified by God and be "saved!"
When Isra'el is healed of her blindness and is regathered, that action will pave the way for the RESURRECTION (which is INTIMATELY tied to the Second Coming)!!!
THAT'S what the "desolations" of Gavri'el's revelation to Dani'el are all about.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 11/15/2009 11:39:38 PM >
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/16/2009 2:05:32 AM
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CWHJrA
Posts: 5
Joined: 11/16/2009
Status: offline
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Hi guys. Just thought I should put a couple ncents in for the Lord. I am afraid that it is to late for the pre trib rapture. Jovier Solana confirmed a covenant with many nations on Jan 1 2007. They had been working on it for years setting it up and getting agreement from many nations including Israel. In its original form it was caled the European Neighbourhood policy. However when Solana who happens to be the General Secretary of the EU confirmed this agreemnnet in 2007 all hopes for your pretrib died.
There is no scripture any where in the bible that says there will be a 7 year peace treaty. Only a covenant or agreement. This agreement could not be implimented until 2007 because it will cost over a billion and therefore had to be budgetted for. The e
EU has a 7 year budget, hence the 7 year agreement. This agreement includes a mid term review coinsidently.
I know that we need a temple and sacrifice yet but we have 7 months to go to the middle of the 7.
On top of this Obama has a meating sometime in December 09 to sign on with EU to form a one world Government. They are obviously the second beast of rev 13 and they reign with the first beast for 42 months.
Then there is the star (ak asteroid) that will hit in 2012. No I don't believe the hipe. I believe the word and the signs and wonders in Egypt. There have been interesting findings to further prove that year through bible codes.
Here is the proof for US as second beast.
SECOND BEAST
Now there are actually 2 beasts in Revelation 13. The second beast rises from the earth. Look at Revelation 13:11. This beast is taught by some to be the false prophet. I fail to see how they come to that conclusion. With many of the characters in prophecy it is as if people see a name and then close the book and start imagining who it might be. This is what the world wide church of God did with Babylon and this is what some do with this second beast. Anyway, lets see if we can remove the confusion about this second beast. We already know that the first beast with ten horns is the European Union. The horns represent kings or nations. This second beast has 2 horns therefore it is safe to say that it is 2 nations. The second beast looks like a lamb. Well there is only one lamb that means anything in the bible and that is the Lamb of God who all Christians know is Jesus who was slain for the sins of the whole world. I believe that the reason Jesus says that the 2 horned beast looks like a lamb is because they are Christian nations. They have been established on biblical principals. I will now give a strong case to prove that this 2 horned beast is Canada and the USA with Mexico coming along for the ride just as the EU has 10 Nations with 17 other nations tagging along.
Mexico, Canada and the US became one when President Bush junior established the North American Union between these three nations. This is someting that many thought was only a proposition that did not come to anything. However, apparently this union now exists as an entity. You can google it to get more information on that. Now Mexico has no real power in the workings of this Union. therefore the two nations with any real voice remain Canada and the USA.
The beast with 2 horns has the voice of a dragon. Both of these countries are full of pride and though they profess to be Christian, by nature they are far from it. Many of the laws that have been passed in recent years are totally against Christ and more in tune with the beliefs taught by the new age movement allowing same sex marriage and gay pastors and common law marriage unsanctified by God. In Job 41 God describes a dragon called Leviathan. Read the discription and you can see why I call it a dragon. If you look this up in the Strongs Concordence you will find that it can be translated dragon. Job tells us that the dragon is the Father of all of the children of pride. Hence the voice of the dragon. It is interesting to note that the dragon was the simble of Babylon.
The US is just as powerful in the world as the EU and has nothing but praise for the EU and the efforts it is making toward a New World Order. The fact that it has the power to make fire come down from heaven still eludes me but we are just about to enter the beasts reign. Time will tell. Now Canada is one of the world’s leaders in robotics. They are very capable now of making a robot that looks exactly like you and who talks. It is no wonder that this second beast does exactly that in Rev 13:14. Next we have the mark of the beast. Take careful note that the mark is not said to be 666 but that rather it is the number of the beast. Many have attributed this number 666 to the mark mistakenly. WE must rightly divide the word of truth. This number can be attributed to many past presidents and world leaders using an ancient numerical method of matching certain letters to certain numbers and then adding them together. One such title is Vicar of Christ. You can do your own study on that through google. It will be very enlightening.
Motorola, which is a huge company is the USA, has developed a chip called the Vera-Chip. You would do well to google this name as well. It is a small chip the size of a grain of rice. It has been planted in animals for several years now in order to track there location via sattle-lite. When they first developed this chip they boasted of how their goal is to plant one of these chips in every person on the planet. Many people have volunteered to take this chip which is planted in their right hand in the fleshy part of the palm near the base of the thumb. This or the forehead is said to be the best place to put it to prevent it travelling in the body. All of your personal information including your banking information is put in this chip and this information can be changed if you wish. Do not take this chip. It is the mark of the beast. Around the time that the asteroid hits it is not hard to imagine the governments laying down marshal law and demanding everyone to take the chip.
This second beast gives all of its power to the first beast and we know that the first beast only has power for 42 months. That is the second half of the 7 years. well, there is a meeting taking place, I believe it is on Dec 9th of 2009, where USPresident Obama is believed to be signing an agreement with the EU to form a one world Government.
There are a lot of misconceptions about the rapture. I prifer to believe the word above the teachings that can be proven out of context easily.
There is a great trumpet after the star hits in mat 24/29-31
There is a rapture at the last trumpet in Ist Corrinthians 15/51,52
It matches the event in 1st Thess 4 to well to mess up the interpritation without some great effort. There is a seventh trumpet is Rev 11 after the 2 witnesses rise. Is it possible that the word might be true and the rapture right when he said it would be? However, I also see a rapture in Rev 12 when the child gets caught up. That child is not Jesus because he was already up there when John was told in Rev 4 that I must show you things that will come here after. This child rules with a rod of iron but so do those in the church who overcome Jezabel. This chapter is talking about the church as they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word oof their testemony. And the remainder of the womans seed in the last verse had the testemony of Jesus.
This child is a part of the church that is obedient. Galations 5 is clear that the disobedient can not go. The woman is the Church that is bound in hundreds of false doctrines and is in bondage to her pride. That pride will be broken when she goes into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years.
I notice that there are others who have given many web addresses so I invite you to visit www.cwhjr-tkic.blogspot.com I guarantee it will shake your religious pride should you have any.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/16/2009 12:20:39 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 144
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Most certainly, so we know the trumpets have to extend over at least a 5 month period, which makes the Day of the Lord more than a 24hr period as many would like to make it.
Bob,
I look at the Day of the Lord as a two-day event. This very special day brings to a close the Church Age in a very auspicious way with an earthquake to "shake things up," an ominous day with looming clouds and celestial events which will mirror the 1st century Jewish wedding ritual when the groom with a band of his noisy friends come calling upon his bride at night with fanfare and torches.
The second day begins the Wrath of God. There are two battles fought in Israel by Jesus; one around Jerusalem and another south of it. These battles supply the blood of the Day of the Lord. The purpose of these battles, the fire, the smoke and the blood is to "cleanse" the land not only of sin, but to wipe out the occupying Northern Army which previously invaded at the midpoint so the anti-Christ encamped around the Holy Mountain (which directly leads to the abomination being set up in the Temple at that time). One of the reasons to wipe out the Northern Army contingent may very well be to act in a rear guard action to protect the fleeing remnant from Jerusalem which flees through the Mount of Olives which Jesus cleaves in two (which is the second earthquake of the sixth Seal).
Once the Wrath of God begins, the Two Witnesses take over in many respects. They have the power to call down some of God's desolations. Meanwhile, God delegates the delivery of the desolations to Angels.
I do not place the Day of the Lord at the end of the one 'seven' when Jesus comes back with His Army to defeat the combined Northern, Southern, and Eastern armies which have been assembled in the hill country of Ephraim by Armageddon.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 11/16/2009 12:28:31 PM >
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