quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity

I don’t even think kids write longhand in school anymore. LOL! But I like to write, and longhand is sometimes quicker than typing – plus it’s relaxing. MPO.

Anyway, this is what I have come up with so far while reclining in the recliner and reading Scripture …

The 7 Churches -

Revelation 2:1 – 7, is a BUSY Body of Believers. Always full of activity, yet not getting much accomplished.

Revelation 2:8 – 11, Is PERSECUTED FROM WITHIN. This Body of Believer’s suffers from the Judas kiss; two-faced backstabbers dwell within the Body.

Revelation 2:12 – 17, is CORRUPTED. There is idol worship and immorality in the Body; embracing decadence and teaching dishonest doctrines.

Revelation 2:18 – 29, is FALSE. This body is cultic in nature; embracing trendy and unusual philosophies more than Biblical truths.

Revelation 3:1 – 6, is a WORLDLY Body of Believer’s; apathetic and morally lax, it is “sleeping” instead of being aware of the time.

Revelation 3:7 – 13, is a MESSIANIC Body of Believers; this is a “true” Body, holding fast to what is God’s Will despite the wickedness that comes against it. This Church is the Bride of Christ, which will hold true and be rescued.

Revelation 3:14 – 22, is INDIFFERENT; proud, this Church believes it needs nothing … not even God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity
I’ll post more later. The storm here is really kicking up a fuss, so best shut the computer down until the winds die down. BTW, I have checked the natural- medicinal link you suggested above, and it has many beneficial points. Thanks :-)

And to anyone lurking who wants to accuse me again of lifting copyright materials and posting them ... THESE ARE MY OWN WORDS. I will be happy to supply a scan of my handwritten notes that supplied the body of this post, but even that may be doubted by the mockers ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Wayne.

Wayne, my brother, it's just too hard to respond to your posts because of their length.

At this point, I'm only going to say two things:

First, you should realize that "angel," transliterated from the Greek word "aggelos," simply means "messenger" and does not have to refer to a supernatural messenger from God. Sometimes, the messenger is a human messenger, and not necessarily one who was sent from God. Yes, Yeshua` has Yochannan address each letter to that Messianic community's "messenger," but that probably refers to their PASTOR or MINISTER, not to a supernatural messenger we typically term "angel!"

Second, just read my response to sureclarity and compare my answers to yours.

That's all for now.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
IF they are applicable at all to other congregations, it is purely because they consisted of human beings much like every congregation does and so suffered the same idiosyncracies and foibles as do modern congregations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
So, if you'll pardon the political incorrectness, God is not an "Indian giver!" He doesn't give His people something only to take it back again! And, the promise is that "all Isra'el shall be saved or rescued!" Also, pay particular attention to the 15th verse: Isn't that cool?

"The casting away of the Jews was the reconciling of the world!" God gave the Gentiles--the Goyim--the non-Jews reconciliation while the Jews were temporarily blinded!
However, what's even more wonderful is what follows! "..What shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" RESURRECTION!!! So, I'll ask again; how many resurrections of the justified are there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Second, the three passages do NOT have to refer to a separate event than the Second Coming! The 1 Thes. 4:13-17 passage simply ends with the words “…and so shall we ever be with the Lord,” but it does NOT tell us where that will be! All it says is that wherever the Lord is, that’s where we’ll be, too. It does NOT, however, tell us what happens next.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This took me a while to find personally, but the answer lay in the definition of “heaven.” When you realize that “heaven” means nothing more than “the sky,” and can come to view it as such consistently, then you will understand. The Scriptures do NOT support the Scofield theory of “1st heaven of clouds, 2nd heaven of stars, 3rd heaven God’s abode.” While there are multiple words in Greek that were all translated “heaven,” that’s not how they are different from one another. Instead, you have 5 basic Greek words that were translated “heaven”: “ouranos” (372 times) meaning “the sky,” ouranios (9 times) meaning “of or belonging to the sky,” “ouranothen” (2 times) meaning “from the sky,” “mesouraneema” (3 times) meaning “in the middle of the sky,” and “epouranios” (19 times) meaning “of or belonging to above the sky.” ONLY the last one, “epouranios,” could mean ANYTHING other than our atmosphere! ALL the rest of the four can be shown to refer to the sky or our atmosphere! It’s even easier to see in the Tanakh. There, you only have “shemayim” (327 times) meaning “skies,” and “shemeey hashemayim” (5 times) meaning the “sky of the skies” or the thinner expanse beyond the atmosphere or outer space. There were a few other words translated “heaven” in the Tanakh (the OT), such as “galgal” which means a “whirlwind” such as a “tornado” or a “dust devil,” but like “galgal,” they really don’t have anything to do with the “heavens” themselves, just things in the skies, like smoke, dust, and clouds, including fog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Even the description of what people call the description of Heaven in Rev. 21 and 22 is really a description of the New Jerusalem! That’s technically NOT the same thing!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Zechariah 14:1-2 do indeed talk about the same “tribulation” as in Matthew 24:21-29 (Greek: thlipsis = “pressure”), but if you will carefully read these contexts, you will find that they are not a “pressure” that is on the WHOLE earth but is on the Jewish people!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:21-29; so, no mystery there. It’s still about the Jewish people suffering at the hands of the Goyim (Gentiles or non-Jews).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This one, however, is not correct. This prophecy has already been fulfilled in the first century (70 A.D.)! This was a specific incident that was to happen in the lifetimes of the disciples who were hearing Yeshua`s words. (One can deduce this by the pronouns used in the Olivet Discourse.) It was the beginning of the persecution the Jews would feel for the next 2000 years! It is still not over because Jerusalem is still in the hands of the Goyim or Gentiles! (Luke 21:24) It won’t be over until the Jews can welcome Yeshua` back as their Messiah (“Baruwk haba’ b’shem ADONAI” as noted in Matthew 23:39.) It won’t be over until the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from the sky, and the Second Coming of the Messiah is seen! (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, this one too is incorrect. This already happened back in the days of Yeshua`s disciples running from Jerusalem when it was under attack from the Romans. See, the Road of the Rooftops would do no good today. It only existed in the old city of Jerusalem where the roofs were close together and allowed a person on the roof “not to come down…but to flee,” jumping from roof to roof to avoid his/her captors. What good would fleeing to the mountains do today with helicopters in pursuit and satellites watching? No, this happened millennia ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Roy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Wayne.

Wayne, my brother, it's just too hard to respond to your posts because of their length.

At this point, I'm only going to say two things:

First, you should realize that "angel," transliterated from the Greek word "aggelos," simply means "messenger" and does not have to refer to a supernatural messenger from God. Sometimes, the messenger is a human messenger, and not necessarily one who was sent from God. Yes, Yeshua` has Yochannan address each letter to that Messianic community's "messenger," but that probably refers to their PASTOR or MINISTER, not to a supernatural messenger we typically term "angel!"

Second, just read my response to sureclarity and compare my answers to yours.

That's all for now.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

Feel free to cut them down to a small reply, the various topics ultimately all tie into together. The length is just to show as many connections there are in the cause/effect parts. I feel that by showing you exactly how I came to have a certain view you will be able to see how I got it from certain passages.

In the case of the preaching Angel he is not alone.

Re:14:2:
And I heard a voice from heaven,
as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder:
and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Re:14:8:
And there followed another angel,
saying,
Babylon is fallen,
is fallen,
that great city,
because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Re:14:9:
And the third angel followed them,
saying with a loud voice,
If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead,
or in his hand,

If Satan's Babylon has fallen then it is also within an hour of the two witnesses being resurrected. Even as late as that these words would just then be spoken.
Re:18:3:
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,
and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Re:18:4:
And I heard another voice from heaven,
saying,
Come out of her,
my people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins,
and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Re:18:5:
For her sins have reached unto heaven,
and God hath remembered her iniquities.

This Angel below is certainly no human messenger, Christ comes from Heaven. God's voice was heard several times between baptism and the cross. Where do the ones Jesus references come from, above or someplace on the earth at that very time.

Re:14:17:
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven,
he also having a sharp sickle.
Re:14:18:
And another angel came out from the altar,
which had power over fire;
and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle,
saying,
Thrust in thy sharp sickle,
and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth;
for her grapes are fully ripe.
Re:14:19:
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth,
and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Re:14:20:
And the winepress was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress,
even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

M't:26:53:
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father,
and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
IF they are applicable at all to other congregations, it is purely because they consisted of human beings much like every congregation does and so suffered the same idiosyncracies and foibles as do modern congregations.

If those same characteristics could be found in individuals today then the reward or punishment would be the same. It is also quite possible that all the various denominations of just Christian Churches will have at least a few members that fit those basic descriptions. Is it not also more that possible that religions other than Christianity could have members that have a similar relationship with God of the Holy Bible. Judaism and Islam both believe in the same God. God doesn't sort people by what denomination a person belongs to, we are judged individually by how well we love God and by how well we treat each other, deed do count and so do thoughts. Both are examined by Christ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
So, if you'll pardon the political incorrectness, God is not an "Indian giver!" He doesn't give His people something only to take it back again! And, the promise is that "all Isra'el shall be saved or rescued!" Also, pay particular attention to the 15th verse: Isn't that cool?

"The casting away of the Jews was the reconciling of the world!" God gave the Gentiles--the Goyim--the non-Jews reconciliation while the Jews were temporarily blinded!
However, what's even more wonderful is what follows! "..What shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" RESURRECTION!!! So, I'll ask again; how many resurrections of the justified are there?

Both Israel and Church are resurrected at the same time. 144,000 from Israel see Christ arrive, the rest come to life after that arrival. The Church are the 1/3 that Christ brings through the wrath of God that are called the 7 vials. Both groups interact for the next 1,000 years in a set pattern. Resurrect by Christ. The ones from the Nations that are called 'the rest' are resurrected by God at the Great White Throne event called Judgment Day, the is the time the Nations become a whole people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Second, the three passages do NOT have to refer to a separate event than the Second Coming! The 1 Thes. 4:13-17 passage simply ends with the words “…and so shall we ever be with the Lord,” but it does NOT tell us where that will be! All it says is that wherever the Lord is, that’s where we’ll be, too. It does NOT, however, tell us what happens next.

Certain passages do tell us that. One describes it as attending a yearly feast of the tabernacles, others tell us a limited amount of what will be going on and some of the conditions, just as there are some that describe the New Earth after Judgment Day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This took me a while to find personally, but the answer lay in the definition of “heaven.” When you realize that “heaven” means nothing more than “the sky,” and can come to view it as such consistently, then you will understand. The Scriptures do NOT support the Scofield theory of “1st heaven of clouds, 2nd heaven of stars, 3rd heaven God’s abode.” While there are multiple words in Greek that were all translated “heaven,” that’s not how they are different from one another. Instead, you have 5 basic Greek words that were translated “heaven”: “ouranos” (372 times) meaning “the sky,” ouranios (9 times) meaning “of or belonging to the sky,” “ouranothen” (2 times) meaning “from the sky,” “mesouraneema” (3 times) meaning “in the middle of the sky,” and “epouranios” (19 times) meaning “of or belonging to above the sky.” ONLY the last one, “epouranios,” could mean ANYTHING other than our atmosphere! ALL the rest of the four can be shown to refer to the sky or our atmosphere! It’s even easier to see in the Tanakh. There, you only have “shemayim” (327 times) meaning “skies,” and “shemeey hashemayim” (5 times) meaning the “sky of the skies” or the thinner expanse beyond the atmosphere or outer space. There were a few other words translated “heaven” in the Tanakh (the OT), such as “galgal” which means a “whirlwind” such as a “tornado” or a “dust devil,” but like “galgal,” they really don’t have anything to do with the “heavens” themselves, just things in the skies, like smoke, dust, and clouds, including fog.

If you scroll down to Thayers Lexicon (click here for the rest of the entry)and then go down to 2) it is stating the use of the word heaven can/does have more than one meaning in that there are 3 places distinctly different from one another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Even the description of what people call the description of Heaven in Rev. 21 and 22 is really a description of the New Jerusalem! That’s technically NOT the same thing!

New Jerusalem is still in Heaven when people enter it after the closing of Judgment Day. The last event that took place on Earth was the fire from God in Heaven. The earth would have been left barren of all life, plant and animal, even the water is gone. In the vision of New Jerusalem descending where are the people that are being addressed. They would either be in the city waiting for it to land of on the new earth waiting to enter the city for the first time. Even if immortal we would not be in front of the living water that would come from the city after landing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Zechariah 14:1-2 do indeed talk about the same “tribulation” as in Matthew 24:21-29 (Greek: thlipsis = “pressure”), but if you will carefully read these contexts, you will find that they are not a “pressure” that is on the WHOLE earth but is on the Jewish people!

I'm not sure why you claim they are members of the 12 tribes when the verse just preceding is about gentiles who are being called His.

Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

In Revelation this would be ch:11 and the earthquake that kills 7,000 and destroys 1/10 of the city. There is a remnant that give glory to God, those are the ones that do the escaping. The 144,000 should be no place in the city, that is why the two witnesses were there, that is who war was being fought against.

Zec:14:12:
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet,
and their eyes shall consume away in their holes,
and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
z

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:21-29; so, no mystery there. It’s still about the Jewish people suffering at the hands of the Goyim (Gentiles or non-Jews).

Vs:24 is the start of the time of the Gentiles, the captivity took place in 70AD and it will continue until the end of the time of the Gentiles. Jerusalem was under control of the 'Nations' since Neb's time. Rome had been the rulers for almost a 100 years when 70 AD happened. The time of the gentiles ends at the 7th trump as in Re:11, all those things in vs:25 will have been done before that trump sounds.

Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Lu:21:25:
And there shall be signs in the sun,
and in the moon,
and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity;
the sea and the waves roaring;

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This one, however, is not correct. This prophecy has already been fulfilled in the first century (70 A.D.)! This was a specific incident that was to happen in the lifetimes of the disciples who were hearing Yeshua`s words. (One can deduce this by the pronouns used in the Olivet Discourse.) It was the beginning of the persecution the Jews would feel for the next 2000 years! It is still not over because Jerusalem is still in the hands of the Goyim or Gentiles! (Luke 21:24) It won’t be over until the Jews can welcome Yeshua` back as their Messiah (“Baruwk haba’ b’shem ADONAI” as noted in Matthew 23:39.) It won’t be over until the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from the sky, and the Second Coming of the Messiah is seen! (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)

The persecution Christians felt in those days were from the Jews. At the time Stephen was stoned to death for his words inside the temple this was going on concerning all Christians except the Apostles, even though they stayed in Jerusalem they would not have suffered any pain or suffering at the hands of the Jews. There is nothing to indicate that type of persecution ever stopped.

Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.
Ac:8:2:
And devout men carried Stephen to his burial,
and made great lamentation over him.
Ac:8:3:
As for Saul,
he made havock of the church,
entering into every house,
and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Ac:8:4:
Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, this one too is incorrect. This already happened back in the days of Yeshua`s disciples running from Jerusalem when it was under attack from the Romans. See, the Road of the Rooftops would do no good today. It only existed in the old city of Jerusalem where the roofs were close together and allowed a person on the roof “not to come down…but to flee,” jumping from roof to roof to avoid his/her captors. What good would fleeing to the mountains do today with helicopters in pursuit and satellites watching? No, this happened millennia ago.

It is telling them to flee, that includes coming down and running away rather than coming down and then trying to grab something from inside the house. The difference in time it takes is the difference between life and death.


Later

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
14:2: Hey, Wayne. These “harpers” or “lyre players” do not necessarily mean that they are supernatural lyre players! Don’t humans play lyres, too?
14:8-9: Again, there’s no proof that these are SUPERNATURAL messengers; they may be human messengers. Remember: In biblical times and in the Middle East especially, messages were sent by runners. These runners would carry the messages to individuals or to the general population.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
18:3-5: The voice out of the sky is probably that of the Messiah Himself, since He calls them “MY people,” but He’s not an “angel,” is He? (Be careful how you answer.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Matt. 26:53: This, too, could be referring to supernatural messengers, but there’s nothing in the verse that FORCES it to be interpreted this way! It’s possible that these “12 legions of angels” could be 12 legions of foot soldiers! After all, a “legion”

NT:3003 legion (leg-ee-ohn') or legeon (leg-eh-ohn'); of Latin origin; a "legion", i.e. Roman regiment (figuratively):
KJV - legion.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And Wikipedia says that the Roman legion was…

…5,200 men plus auxiliaries in the imperial period (split into 10 cohorts, 9 of 480 men each, plus the first cohort holding 800 men).

Thus, 12 legions would be 62,400 soldiers plus auxiliaries! However, even in this case, we are not told for sure that these are supernatural beings!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Well, I agree with you about the Resurrection. However, that is NOT what the 144,000 refer to. They are 144,000 Jewish, virgin witnesses! 144,000 men (and/or women) who are given a special mission. There will be much more than 144,000 Jews who will be alive at the Return. Anyway, yes, there’s but ONE resurrection of the justified, and it occurs at the Second Coming of the Messiah.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
That’s Thayer’s OPINION! In fact, I’d wager that he got his notion of “3 places distinctly different from one another” from the Scofield theory (which is older than Scofield, btw). This whole idea of “three different kinds of heaven” stems from the mention of the “third heaven” by Paul in 2 Cor. 12:1-4. However, as I’ve said before, a better explanation for Paul’s “third heaven” can be found in 2 Peter 3:3-13 where Peter describes the first heaven as being the sky around the first earth both perishing in the Flood. The second heaven as being the sky around the second earth in which we now live and which is destined to be destroyed by Fire. And, the third heaven would be the third sky around the third earth—the New Earth that John sees—“wherein dwelleth righteousness.” In other words, the “third heaven” of Paul is the same “new heavens” that Peter sees and the “new heaven” that John sees. It’s just the new sky around the new earth after the millennium and after the GWT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
On the rest of that, PERHAPS! The Fire may or may not be global in scope. If it is not global, then it is possible that some Gentile nations may have escaped it! Oh, yes, and when John says “there was no more sea,” it does NOT mean that there will be no more water! In fact, it is possible, since he was stranded on the Isle of Patmos by the body of water known as the Mediterranean Sea, that his comment may have been directed to mean there would be no more Mediterranean Sea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
To which “verse just preceding” are you referring? They ARE children of Isra’el! The Scriptures call them such when saying they are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Isra’el and NAMES them! But, the “escaping” in Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are the JEWS escaping from Jerusalem in 70 A.D. In Zechariah 14, those “escaping” are the remnant of the city of Jerusalem who are given the path through the Mount of Olives for escaping out of the city.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yes, and that is why this happened in the first century and is NOT going to happen again in the future when the Messiah returns. That’s the point I was trying to make; the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21 has a huge portion that has been already fulfilled from our perspective. There are just a relatively small number of verses in these chapters that have NOT been fulfilled yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Morning Roy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
14:2: Hey, Wayne. These “harpers” or “lyre players” do not necessarily mean that they are supernatural lyre players! Don’t humans play lyres, too?
14:8-9: Again, there’s no proof that these are SUPERNATURAL messengers; they may be human messengers. Remember: In biblical times and in the Middle East especially, messages were sent by runners. These runners would carry the messages to individuals or to the general population.

That and many other instruments the Bible mentions. Yet you cannot point [to] the earthly location of this place. In Revelation John was given which direction to go to find this place.

Re:14:3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Re:4:1: After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Re:4:2: And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
18:3-5: The voice out of the sky is probably that of the Messiah Himself, since He calls them “MY people,” but He’s not an “angel,” is He? (Be careful how you answer.)

I'll stick with my previous answer then. "This Angel below is certainly no human messenger; Christ comes from Heaven. "

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Matt. 26:53: This, too, could be referring to supernatural messengers, but there’s nothing in the verse that FORCES it to be interpreted this way! It’s possible that these “12 legions of angels” could be 12 legions of foot soldiers! After all, a “legion”

NT:3003 legion (leg-ee-ohn') or legeon (leg-eh-ohn'); of Latin origin; a "legion", i.e. Roman regiment (figuratively):
KJV - legion.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And Wikipedia says that the Roman legion was…

…5,200 men plus auxiliaries in the imperial period (split into 10 cohorts, 9 of 480 men each, plus the first cohort holding 800 men).

Thus, 12 legions would be 62,400 soldiers plus auxiliaries! However, even in this case, we are not told for sure that these are supernatural beings!

Would these two verses be enough to clarify who Jesus was referencing?

The ones with Christ are not from the earth, they are from the place the 3rd verse describes.

Re:19:14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Re:19:19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Re:12:7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Well, I agree with you about the Resurrection. However, that is NOT what the 144,000 refer to. They are 144,000 Jewish, virgin witnesses! 144,000 men (and/or women) who are given a special mission. There will be much more than 144,000 Jews who will be alive at the Return. Anyway, yes, there’s but ONE resurrection of the justified, and it occurs at the Second Coming of the Messiah.

Not according to Scripture, the dead are the first to be gathered. The war against the Nations kills not only the armies around the Holy Land but also 'sinners' everyplace else on earth. That is where it starts, that is not where it stops. The change is in this reference. Vs:21 is the destruction of the 2/3 that Zec:13:9 [describes]

Eze:39:21: And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze:39:22: So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze:39:23: And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24: According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze:39:25: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze:39:26: After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze:39:27: When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze:39:28: Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze:39:29: Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
That’s Thayer’s OPINION! In fact, I’d wager that he got his notion of “3 places distinctly different from one another” from the Scofield theory (which is older than Scofield, btw). This whole idea of “three different kinds of heaven” stems from the mention of the “third heaven” by Paul in 2 Cor. 12:1-4. However, as I’ve said before, a better explanation for Paul’s “third heaven” can be found in 2 Peter 3:3-13 where Peter describes the first heaven as being the sky around the first earth both perishing in the Flood. The second heaven as being the sky around the second earth in which we now live and which is destined to be destroyed by Fire. And, the third heaven would be the third sky around the third earth—the New Earth that John sees—“wherein dwelleth righteousness.” In other words, the “third heaven” of Paul is the same “new heavens” that Peter sees and the “new heaven” that John sees. It’s just the new sky around the new earth after the millennium and after the GWT.

There is said to be a temple in Heaven, it's doors can be opened or closed. New Jerusalem is said to be in Heaven but it is said that there is no temple in there. Are they two separate places? Is the Great White Throne event held in even a different place?

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
On the rest of that, PERHAPS! The Fire may or may not be global in scope. If it is not global, then it is possible that some Gentile nations may have escaped it! Oh, yes, and when John says “there was no more sea,” it does NOT mean that there will be no more water! In fact, it is possible, since he was stranded on the Isle of Patmos by the body of water known as the Mediterranean Sea, that his comment may have been directed to mean there would be no more Mediterranean Sea.

Re:16:3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

They are made into a solid not a liquid. For the 1,000 years the Nations get rain and Israel has the living river. It is said to heal the Dead Sea of salt. On a global scale all seas are connected to the Med. All land is surrounded by one body of water

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
To which “verse just preceding” are you referring? They ARE children of Isra’el! The Scriptures call them such when saying they are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Isra’el and NAMES them! But, the “escaping” in Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are the JEWS escaping from Jerusalem in 70 A.D. In Zechariah 14, those “escaping” are the remnant of the city of Jerusalem who are given the path through the Mount of Olives for escaping out of the city.

Who did Jesus turn His attention to after the arrest and death on the cross. It was taken to the Gentiles only a few years later, that is who the little ones are, little because at that time they had been denied the Gospel to any great extent. That is what this verse is referencing. Israel is mentioned as being scattered since they were the sheep at the time.

Zec:13:7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

The gathering of Israel is given in Jer:31, pretty much the whole chapter. It even covers that the ones killed by Herod will be brought back at that specific time.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You don’t think that the persecution the Messianic community felt was from BOTH the Jews internal to Isra’el and from the Romans external to Isra’el? No, it was the Roman army, destroying the Temple, the city, and indiscriminatingly killing the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that persecuted the Jews, believers and nonbelievers alike, in 70 A.D.

I agree that Rome would have swept up Jew and Christian together. I would question how many Christians were in Jerusalem or all of Israel if that persecution didn't stop before 70AD. That is probably why Patmos was where Revelation was written, picked up for being Jewish while not being a threat to Rome.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yes, and that is why this happened in the first century and is NOT going to happen again in the future when the Messiah returns. That’s the point I was trying to make; the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21 has a huge portion that has been already fulfilled from our perspective. There are just a relatively small number of verses in these chapters that have NOT been fulfilled yet.

The number 'might' be smaller and they should be near the end of the sermon. This is an example of what would appear to be 70 AD is meant for whoever is there at the time. However another verse that comes just after that put it at Christ's return.

M't:24:6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
M't:24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
M't:24:8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.

That has been continuous in the Nations all through that time that has passed. I could argue that this is the first reference to the return. It would be too long to go verse by verse. In Mark this sign applies more to the end of the time than the beginning, the 2nd sign is also from the end, the 3 woes from Revelation are not yet fulfilled.

M'r:13:12: Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
M'r:13:13: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

M'r:13:19: For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

The division in Luke is in these verses so the preceding is about the ones He was speaking to at that time. Jesus made the temple desolate in Matt:23. This is a time of going into exile from Jerusalem in 70AD. The 2nd coming is the gathering that nullifies this action. It skips from the start to the end of the time of the Gentiles to the end with nothing being said about the middle.. Re: 11 would put it 1260 days before that day if that point in time is recognized at that very time.

Lu:21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Lu:21:25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter[
Well, my first guess would be in the nation of Isra’el, but it sure ISN’T sitting on a cloud, strumming a harp! In fact, it MUST be in an atmosphere in

order for anyone to HEAR the lyres!

See, in the first place, they were singing BEFORE THE THRONE! That can only mean one of two places: Jerusalem in Isra’el upon the mountains or the New

Jerusalem above the skies. Since we are talking about the 144,000 who were REDEEMED (BOUGHT BACK) FROM THE GROUND, we are seeing a glimpse of this

happening AFTER the Resurrection!

Revelation 4:1-2 should read this way:

Rev 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a doorway was opened in the sky: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;

which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was on the wind: and, behold, a throne was set in the sky, and one sat on the throne.
KJV

As can be seen in Mark 15:46 for an example, the Greek word translated “door” here, “thura,” can also refer to a “doorWAY,” and since we are

talking about it opening up in the sky, I believe it is most likely a passageway through the sky. (There’s also a remote possibility that this is

referring to one of the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem opening up, but the word is “thura” not “puloonas,” translated “gates.”)

Mark 15:46
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a

stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
KJV

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yes! He comes from the SKY! He has to go through the sky to get to the earth! GO FIGURE!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The woman gets the wings and flies while the dragon is grounded!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

The dead in the Messiah being raised first will not be that far ahead of the living being transformed in 1 Thes. 4:13-18. (?) IF, however, you are

referring to the parables of Matthew 13, such as…

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in

bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV

THOSE parables are about the MILLENNIUM, not this present age, and this event will occur AFTER the 1000 years, NOT BEFORE!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Furthermore, where do you get the notion that the war extends to “‘sinners’ everyplace else on earth?”

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, the passage you quote refers to the fact that all of the nations will be REPRESENTED in the battle of Har-Megiddown! And, they will witness the

judgment that YHVH executed, probably because the event will be televised.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The blood of a dead man is black, but not necessarily solid! It just means it’s no longer oxygenated, which, of course, would kill all the fish and

marine animals that take their oxygen from the water! “Solid.” Good grief!


Second, I am well aware of the prophecy that talks about the Dead Sea being healed by the living waters (not life-giving, but life-SUSTAINING waters)

but remember too that those waters flow in BOTH directions, east and WEST, healing the Mediterranean as well! Also, remember that the Dead Sea is MOSTLY

healed although not its salt marshes. (And, while we’re at it, let’s not forget that there will be fishing along those new rivers, for all you fishermen

out there!)

Third, the phrase “there was no more sea” is not about the Millennium; it’s about the New Earth AFTER the Millennium! So, when we are THEN told that

there will be no more sea, it may not be referring to the theory that there will be no more oceans but rather that there will be no more MEDITERRANEAN

Sea! Since the New Jerusalem will probably land centered at the coordinates of old Jerusalem, the sheer weight of this HUGE city will cause the land

surrounding it to push upward forcing the water out of the Mediterranean seabed and into the Atlantic. It will probably do the same thing with the Red

Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba and totally cover the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

AND, to whom will YESHUA` return His attention to WHEN HE COMES AGAIN?!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You have “Gentile-colored glasses” of 1st century history, my friend! Remember the 5000 saved? Remember the 3000 saved? THESE WERE ALL JEWS! Thus, when

Roma persecuted the Jews and dispersed them throughout the Roman world (the Diaspora), they were both believing and unbelieving Jews! The Gentile

population among the believers was small at first but gained in momentum later in the 1st century.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sorry, but you need to understand the Olivet Discourse better. ALL THREE of the Synoptic Gospels harmonize quite nicely in the Greek. And, they

harmonize better than trying to do the same in English. Then, AFTER they are harmonized, they can be translated into English.

Mark 13:12-13 is talking about the period close to 70 A.D. when Jews were turning each other in for being a Jew, cutting deals with their oppressors to

avoid their own deaths. The “tribulation” (Greek: thlipsis meaning “pressure”) is the persecution of the Jews throughout history right down to

the Second Coming. Luke 21:24 covers this whole period of “tribulation.” Then, Luke 21:25ff matches with Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. These are

all future events from that point on.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Roy,

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Well, my first guess would be in the nation of Isra’el, but it sure ISN’T sitting on a cloud, strumming a harp! In fact, it MUST be in an atmosphere in order for anyone to HEAR the lyres!

See, in the first place, they were singing BEFORE THE THRONE! That can only mean one of two places: Jerusalem in Isra’el upon the mountains or the New Jerusalem above the skies. Since we are talking about the 144,000 who were REDEEMED (BOUGHT BACK) FROM THE GROUND, we are seeing a glimpse of this happening AFTER the Resurrection!

Revelation 4:1-2 should read this way:

Rev 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a doorway was opened in the sky: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was on the wind: and, behold, a throne was set in the sky, and one sat on the throne.
KJV

As can be seen in Mark 15:46 for an example, the Greek word translated “door” here, “thura,” can also refer to a “doorWAY,” and since we are talking about it opening up in the sky, I believe it is most likely a passageway through the sky. (There’s also a remote possibility that this is referring to one of the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem opening up, but the word is “thura” not “puloonas,” translated “gates.”)

Mark 15:46
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
KJV

There is a throne in New Jerusalem, I don't recall any mention of an altar though, there is one in His House of Prayer for the 1,000 years though.

Re:8:3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re:8:5: And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Yes! He comes from the SKY! He has to go through the sky to get to the earth! GO FIGURE!

You can't say how far away He starts from. Ascending and descending involves a change in direction, let alone sitting at the right-hand of God for just about all that time. At His return Heaven is as close as our (highest) clouds.

Re:11:19:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake,
and great hail.

The above is part of the arrival, the calling up of the two witnesses after they are resurrected to life also includes these verse as part of the sequence. The fellow servants are the two witnesses. They are just above our high clouds which is what rolls back like a scroll.

Re:6:11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Re:6:12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re:6:13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re:6:14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Re:6:15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re:6:16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re:6:17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

The woman gets the wings and flies while the dragon is grounded!

Sort of like this?

Ac:8:39: And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Ac:8:40: But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

The dead in the Messiah being raised first will not be that far ahead of the living being transformed in 1 Thes. 4:13-18. (?) IF, however, you are referring to the parables of Matthew 13, such as…

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV

THOSE parables are about the MILLENNIUM, not this present age, and this event will occur AFTER the 1000 years, NOT BEFORE!

By the end of the vials all sinners are dead and in hell or in death, two are in the lake. The 3rd woe affects the same ones listed below but these ones have been the cause of persecution in the 2 previous woes.

Re:8:13: And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Lu:21:34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Lu:21:35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

The Nation 'invited' to that battle in Israel is made of every Nation in the World, the list is given in this chapter but it can be summed up by just this one.

Jer:25:26: And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
Jer:25:27: Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

Jerusalem is not the only city that suffers damage.

Re:16:19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Furthermore, where do you get the notion that the war extends to “‘sinners’ everyplace else on earth?”

The end doesn't come until the Gospel has been preached in every corner. That is how far His search for sinners and sheep will go. There are several passages that support that also. Let's start with these two verses. #1 is a description of coming with power and glory. #2 is a reference to the time and place. The reference is just to determine they both speak of the same area of land, not how well they fit into any particular doctrine.

Psalms:72:19: And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

Psalms:97:5: The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

No, the passage you quote refers to the fact that all of the nations will be REPRESENTED in the battle of Har-Megiddown! And, they will witness the judgment that YHVH executed, probably because the event will be televised.

All the cities of the Nations will fall but television will still be working???

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

The blood of a dead man is black, but not necessarily solid! It just means it’s no longer oxygenated, which, of course, would kill all the fish and marine animals that take their oxygen from the water! “Solid.” Good grief!

Second, I am well aware of the prophecy that talks about the Dead Sea being healed by the living waters (not life-giving, but life-SUSTAINING waters) but remember too that those waters flow in BOTH directions, east and WEST, healing the Mediterranean as well! Also, remember that the Dead Sea is MOSTLY healed although not its salt marshes. (And, while we’re at it, let’s not forget that there will be fishing along those new rivers, for all you fishermen out there!)

Third, the phrase “there was no more sea” is not about the Millennium; it’s about the New Earth AFTER the Millennium! So, when we are THEN told that there will be no more sea, it may not be referring to the theory that there will be no more oceans but rather that there will be no more MEDITERRANEAN Sea! Since the New Jerusalem will probably land centered at the coordinates of old Jerusalem, the sheer weight of this HUGE city will cause the land surrounding it to push upward forcing the water out of the Mediterranean seabed and into the Atlantic. It will probably do the same thing with the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba and totally cover the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea.

1st if still in the body it would be blue. outside the body it would dry up and it could be walked on.

2nd Where does it say the sea to the west will be healed?

Eze:47:8: Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze:47:9: And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

AND, to whom will YESHUA` return His attention to WHEN HE COMES AGAIN?!

Certainly, I assumed we all agreed that all of Israel will be saved. Along with 1/3 of the Gentiles that will be the believers in Christ.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

You have “Gentile-colored glasses” of 1st century history, my friend! Remember the 5000 saved? Remember the 3000 saved? THESE WERE ALL JEWS! Thus, when Roma persecuted the Jews and dispersed them throughout the Roman world (the Diaspora), they were both believing and unbelieving Jews! The Gentile population among the believers was small at first but gained in momentum later in the 1st century.

My question was, due to the persecution from the temple Jews, like Saul, that was taking place only a few years after the cross there would have been very few if any Christians in Jerusalem in 70AD.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Sorry, but you need to understand the Olivet Discourse better. ALL THREE of the Synoptic Gospels harmonize quite nicely in the Greek. And, they harmonize better than trying to do the same in English. Then, AFTER they are harmonized, they can be translated into English.

Mark 13:12-13 is talking about the period close to 70 A.D. when Jews were turning each other in for being a Jew, cutting deals with their oppressors to avoid their own deaths. The “tribulation” (Greek: thlipsis meaning “pressure”) is the persecution of the Jews throughout history right down to the Second Coming. Luke 21:24 covers this whole period of “tribulation.” Then, Luke 21:25ff matches with Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. These are all future events from that point on.

Are you saying this Scripture was fullfilled by 70AD?

M'r:13:10: And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Right, that’s what I’m talking about. That’s why I believe that this scene is not in “Heaven” but is rather on the earth, most probably a future glimpse of the new altar made

for the Millennial Temple and of the scene around the throne in the Millennium, and that exists right here on this earth in the city Yerushalayim, Isra’el (Jerusalem, Israel).

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sure I can! I believe that He is and has been in the New Jerusalem working on preparing us rooms/mansions as He said He would, not just sit around on a throne all that time!

How boring would THAT be!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
So, I believe that’s where He’ll be coming from. When you said, “At His return Heaven is as close as our (highest) clouds,” I found it interesting. Are you saying that the

distance from earth to “Heaven” changes? I was just glad that you recognized that “Heaven” was “as close as our (highest) clouds.”

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Now, Yeshua` may just be on His way here, but WE shall change directions as we’re going up and down. Ever here of a trajectory? (I’m kidding.) “What goes up must come down!” As

soon as we’re all resurrected or transformed, we’ll go up when His messengers gather us from all over the earth. After we’ve reached a cruising altitude, we’ll fly to Isra’el,

meet our Master in the air, and descend with Him and land as He attacks His enemies who, in turn, are harassing Isra’el.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Perhaps. That would certainly be one way God could do it.

Some also believe that John was talking about airplane wings, when John said she was given “two wings of a great eagle” (Greek: “duo pteruges tou aetou tou megalou”),

and John COULD have meant airplane wings in that a plane’s wings are fixed like an eagle’s wings are still as they glide and do not flap like the wings of other birds. I

believe that is more plausible than the woman actually growing eagle’s wings!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
NO! That’s not true! All “sinners” WON’T be dead! Where’s your proof? Allow me to give you proof to the contrary:

Rev 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be

fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a

thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with

him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the

sand of the sea.
KJV

If all “sinners” were dead, then where did all these nations that were going to be deceived AFTER the Millennium come from?

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Even DURING the Millennium, we are told about other nations existing and having children who matured during this time, reaching ages beyond the age of accountability.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
We must be careful about our dichotomous way of thinking. Sometimes our dichotomous, binary, 1-0, on-off, yes-no, good-bad thinking leads us to make all-or-nothing conclusions,

and we tend to forget that, with human beings, there are shades of gray, or even better, various shades of all the various colors of the rainbow!

I’ll tell you this: if one NEEDS to speak dichotomously about the nations, think good or bad about each NATION—each COUNTRY, not each nation’s individuals!

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
But, what is the “gospel?” To which “gospel” is He referring? Is it the one that Yeshua` preached? OR, is it the “gospel” that we THINK we have right today?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Once again, you are ASSUMING that “all the cities of the Nations will fall,” but that is not true! Furthermore, you can take a lot away from people, but you can’t take away (1)

their news, or (2) their entertainment!

Also remember: “every eye shall see Him!” The easiest way that could be accomplished is by televising the event!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You’re confusing naturally deoxygenated LIVING blood (blue) with deoxygenated DEAD blood (black)! And, blood will coagulate when exposed to the air (because of platelets) and

blood will dry up if in small enough quantities, but just as the seas and oceans do not dry up to salt beds, neither would the seas and oceans dry up if turned to large

quantities of blood, living or dead. Also, your forgetting a most important point:

Rev 16:3
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
KJV

It doesn’t have to be REAL dead man’s blood! It’s just LIKE (Greek: hoos) the blood of a dead man!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, that’s what I’m talking about, too! If the believers got out of Jerusalem it was because they saw the warnings of Yeshua` coming to pass! They were Jews and were entitled

to go to Jerusalem for the feasts and holidays, indeed, were REQUIRED to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Okay, let’s go back to what I said earlier about “gospel”: What “gospel” is this that Yeshua` would mention in Mark 13? It is the parallel passage in Mark for Matthew 24:16:

Matt 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV

It’s clear that this is the gospel of the kingdom, a good news about the coming of God’s Kingdom and the Messiah, described in Isaiah’s prophecy:

Isa 52:6-7
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth

salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

This is the same “gospel” or “good tidings” that Yeshua` heralded. (Matt. 4:23; 9:35; Mark 1:14-15; Luke 9:6)

So, did Paul preach a different gospel than did Yeshua`? If you think he did, … you’re wrong! 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is NOT the definition of the “gospel!” Look at Paul’s wording of

verse 3:

1 Cor 15:3
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
KJV

It’s not “that which I also received” that was “first of all”; it was “unto you” that was “first of all.” He wasn’t “getting back to basics,” as I’ve heard some preachers say;

He was saying that they were among the first to hear the truth of the Gospel.

The death, burial, and resurrection of our Master, Yeshua` haMashiach, was ADDED to the Gospel of the Kingdom! It’s the icing on the cake!