quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975


The greatest men in the Bible never claimed sinless perfection. They were all painfully aware of the fact that they were sinners and remained so throughout their lives. So long as a man is in a state of sin with a sinful nature still present in him, he will confess himself to be a sinner. The Christian always recognizes himself to be a sinner in need of divine grace.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)
We find here the most solemn warning against the doctrine of sinless perfection in this life. The incontrovertible meaning of this passage is that the man is a self-deceiver who claims for himself what the apostle John dared not claim. The truth is not in him. The doctrine of sinless perfection leads to the conclusion that both Christ and the Holy Spirit are unnecessary once this state of eradication of the sinful nature is reached. Wherever the professed Christian claims to have the sinful nature eradicated in his life, there is a corresponding loss of true dependence upon Christ. There is a break in the only saving relationship that man needs for victory. This allows people to sin and call evil good. It discourages those who strive to be like Christ, but fall short of this false idea of perfection.

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/How%20Perfect%20Is%20Perfect.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Yes, the mentality of inevitable failing is NOT repentance at all! Such is the plague of modern Christianity. Too much honor is given to sin when all honor ought to be given to Christ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I feel the need to expand a bit;

Ok, if the person is a Christian considers Jesus as Lord, and loves God; why would they choose not to be obedient to Him;

(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Why would a Christian wilfully disobey Christ and sin? But whent they do, would you consider them to run into the seriousness of this passage;

(Heb 10:26,27) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Does this imply that wilfull sin of a Christian may not comdems the person to hell, but that it is not covered by the sacrifice, rather it comes under Judgemnt; hence the necessity of repentance, confession, etc. as outlined in First John.

These passages are far too often overlooked by folks and for a myriad of personal reasons, but they should be studied and contenplated.

In general a flippant attitude toward sin committed by Christians, according to John, is an indicator of the person not really knowing God.

(1Jn 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

And shows the necessity of all Believers to do as Paul instructs;

(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Christ said he came to;

(Luk 5:32) I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So this ole country boy thinks we should be about repentance (stoping sinning, changing our minds about sinning) and start being servants of righteousness.

And praise God He made a way for us to do that and be accepted by Him.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Yes, the mentality of inevitable failing is NOT repentance at all! Such is the plague of modern Christianity. Too much honor is given to sin when all honor ought to be given to Christ.

Excellent point evry1needsgod. The attitude really boils down to a misreading of one small Scripture;

(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

John writes the epistle for us not to sin, but IF we sin (Please note that is IF we sin, not WHEN we sin).

Big difference in our walk following after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

Thanks
RC

quote:

ORIGINAL: cposey
Our hearts cannot point to trying to repent and stop sinning to be in right standing with God. This is how the Israelites lived their lives. Jesus came to fulfill that way of life, offer the ultimate sacrifice, be the High Priest for all who believe in HIM. Our hearts must now point to Jesus. It is solely by faith that we can stand righteous before God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975


The greatest men in the Bible never claimed sinless perfection. They were all painfully aware of the fact that they were sinners and remained so throughout their lives. So long as a man is in a state of sin with a sinful nature still present in him, he will confess himself to be a sinner. The Christian always recognizes himself to be a sinner in need of divine grace.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)
We find here the most solemn warning against the doctrine of sinless perfection in this life. The incontrovertible meaning of this passage is that the man is a self-deceiver who claims for himself what the apostle John dared not claim. The truth is not in him. The doctrine of sinless perfection leads to the conclusion that both Christ and the Holy Spirit are unnecessary once this state of eradication of the sinful nature is reached. Wherever the professed Christian claims to have the sinful nature eradicated in his life, there is a corresponding loss of true dependence upon Christ. There is a break in the only saving relationship that man needs for victory. This allows people to sin and call evil good. It discourages those who strive to be like Christ, but fall short of this false idea of perfection.

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/How%20Perfect%20Is%20Perfect.htm

When did he subject on this thread change froom "Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning" to Sinless Perfection?

Thanks
RC

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Yes, the mentality of inevitable failing is NOT repentance at all! Such is the plague of modern Christianity. Too much honor is given to sin when all honor ought to be given to Christ.

Excellent point evry1needsgod. The attitude really boils down to a misreading of one small Scripture;

(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

John writes the epistle for us not to sin, but IF we sin (Please note that is IF we sin, not WHEN we sin).

Big difference in our walk following after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

Thanks
RC

Exactly. So far the only verse that has been provided by the nay-sayers is 1John 1:8. Yet, just a couple verses later we see that Scripture tells us IF we sin we have an advocate. "If" is much different than "will" or "must", and so far I need much more evidence than a single verse taken way out of context to convince me that it is impossible to live the rest of my life without sin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: cposey
Our hearts cannot point to trying to repent and stop sinning to be in right standing with God. This is how the Israelites lived their lives. Jesus came to fulfill that way of life, offer the ultimate sacrifice, be the High Priest for all who believe in HIM. Our hearts must now point to Jesus. It is solely by faith that we can stand righteous before God.

yea, but hearts had also be pointing to being obedient to Christ, and choosing the avenue to escape sin that he provides for us.

If you are saying that it matters not the sinful lifestyle that a "Christian" might choose to live, I would strongly agree with you.

It is by the Grace of God, the Sacrifice of Christ, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and faith in the promises of the Word of God that we Christians are able to choose to live the life spoken of in Romans 12:1-2.

Please do not overlook John's admonition;

(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If a person who calls themselves a Christian, thinkss that they can choose to walk in sin (follow after the flesh, and not after the Spirit), and "Faith" thier way out of it; they are sadly mistaken.

Thanks
RC

quote:

So far the only verse that has been provided by the nay-sayers is 1John 1:8.

quote:

ORIGINAL: quixote
are mere bluster. Since my view of Romans 7--that Paul is describing himself in the present--is indisputably warranted as a live interpretation--which is different than claiming it is true--the Bible does not clearly tell us what you claim it in fact does.

quote:

Romans chapter 7 as a description Paul after Salvation is far from indesputably, just keep reading when you get to the end of 7, and the rest of Romans.

quote:

That conception is revered by many who wish to serve the flesh while telling themselves that they are serving the Spirit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: quixote

quote:

Romans chapter 7 as a description Paul after Salvation is far from indesputably, just keep reading when you get to the end of 7, and the rest of Romans.

So what's your point, RC, that I've never read past chapter 7, or that your interpretation is indisputable because you say so, disregarding the monumental, historical, unresolved, dispute within orthodox Christianity for centuries over this passage? If it were as clear as E1 claimed, there would be no widespread dispute, and even if there were, your side would not be in the distinct minority if Scripture were that certain on the subject.

quote:

As stated, I believe the conception you're referring to. So, again, what's your point? The only thing you can say about my conception is that I wish to serve the flesh, and therefore interpret Scripture the way I do? Hardly a method to arrive at Biblical truth, RC, much less convince an honest opponent of the soundness of your view.

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Regardless, there's contexts in which I'd agree with your statement, but those are non-Christian or sub-Christian contexts. We're not supposed to be about that here....brother.

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My goodness quixote, take one long deep breath in and two short ones out; now isn't that better.

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but you said your point was indisputably, and I disbute it; so we disagree.

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On the balance of ther rest of the New Testament concerning sin and the Christian the "Sinning Apostle Paul" of Romans 7 interpretation falls far short of being an honest assessment of the whole counsel of the Gospel. But of course that is just my humble opinion.

quote:

I never said you wished to serve the flesh, I spoke in gerneral terms (I used "Many" specifically to make it non-personal).

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But are you saying that folks who do wish to serve the flesh and call themselves Christian do not hang on the one or two places where by a streatch sin might be ok (Rom 7, 1John 1:8) to try and justify thier desire to sin?

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God bless you ..... brother.

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

I'm curious how the 17 nay-sayers define repentance. Very interesting...

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

I think it depends entirely on how you define "sin."

If you define sin as deliberately doing something you know is wrong in God's eyes, then yeah, you can stop sinning.

If you define sin as "missing the mark" of perfection, then no, you cannot. You can strive to be more perfect, but you never will achieve it.

Ps103, I think you nailed it. Herein lies the brunt of the discussion, and I look forward to the conversations that lie ahead.

In Christ,
ZG

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

yes Christians can stop sinning. That is the purpose of the Gospel; to eraicate sin and its effects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

Great point rc. Indeed it all comes down to repentance--how one defines it and to what degree one repents.

I'm curious how the 17 nay-sayers define repentance. Very interesting...

quote:

The doctrine of sinless perfection leads to the conclusion that both Christ and the Holy Spirit are unnecessary once this state of eradication of the sinful nature is reached. Wherever the professed Christian claims to have the sinful nature eradicated in his life, there is a corresponding loss of true dependence upon Christ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

yes Christians can stop sinning. That is the purpose of the Gospel; to eraicate sin and its effects.

Can you explain the high failure rate?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

yes Christians can stop sinning. That is the purpose of the Gospel; to eraicate sin and its effects.

Can you explain the high failure rate?

I think that Matthew 7:21-23, and 1 John 3:6 speaks to the majority of folks who call themselves Christion, but keep sinning.


Which is why I am very consistant about insturcting the folks at my Church to do as the Apostle Paul suggests;

(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Thanks
RC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Does the above include those here who preach but not practice sinless life?

quote:

ORIGINAL: quixote

quote:

So far the only verse that has been provided by the nay-sayers is 1John 1:8.

I prefer gainsayer, myself, E1, but this is factually incorrect. Romans 7, which is closer to a chapter than a single verse, has been provided. It's stood largely uncontested except for a vague reference to an historical present interpretation of the passage, which no one here seems interested in defending.

Those who ascribe to the holiness view may consider the historical present interpretation compelling. In fact, they must deem it compelling to retain the majority of their doctrine. Nevertheless, I do not find it compelling, or even likely, though it may in fact ultimately be true. Likewise, great Bible teachers, preachers, and theologians, as well as the common man who reads the passage in its present tense without knowledge of the historical present tense, have understood the applicable parts of Romans 7 as a present tense description by Paul of himself.

What does this mean? It means that statements such as this:

Sounds to me like people are holding onto their preconceived forfeiture to sin without actually studying what the Bible clearly tells us.

are mere bluster. Since my view of Romans 7--that Paul is describing himself in the present--is indisputably warranted as a live interpretation--which is different than claiming it is true--the Bible does not clearly tell us what you claim it in fact does.

And why does a belief that the Bible teaches we carry around with us a fallen nature equal preconceived forfeiture to sin? It may very well be the case that sanctification entails recognition of the old man, and an honest struggle against it by living for the spirit, rather than a denial that the old man exists. :)

quote:

Evry1needsgod, couldn't it just be that the 17 nay-sayers are using a different definition of 'sin' than you? Ps103 made an excellent point regarding this, way back on the very first page of this thread which you actually agreed with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

yes Christians can stop sinning. That is the purpose of the Gospel; to eraicate sin and its effects.

Can you explain the high failure rate?