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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 3:42:06 PM)
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 12:48:46 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Great point rc. Indeed it all comes down to repentance--how one defines it and to what degree one repents.
I'm curious how the 17 nay-sayers define repentance. Very interesting...
Actually it really comes down to how one defines sin and those who preach (not practice) a sinless life tend to have such a narrow idea of sin they make it practically impossible for themselves to sin... Convenient to say the least...
Honestly, it only matters (for this discussion) how YOU define sin. For those of us who believe that it is possible to live the rest of our lives without committing another sin, it doesn't matter how sin is defined. ALL sin, regardless to how you define it, is avoidable per 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16. You can define it as you wish, but in the end such definitions are mere ploys to give you the advantage you need to convince yourself of sinful defeat.
But I know, through the Words of God Almighty, that all sin is avoidable through the shed blood of Christ! Amen!
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:04:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Does the above include those here who preach but not practice sinless life?
I encourage everyone who calls themselves a Christian to do as Paul wrote to those who called themselves Christians in Corinth;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
That includes all who call themselves Christians; including myself.
Thanks
RC
Yet everyone here who speaks of not sinning has done so... Some on the very thread about not sinning...Are they part of "the majority of folks who call themselves Christion, but keep sinning." you spoke of?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:10:05 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Does the above include those here who preach but not practice sinless life?
I encourage everyone who calls themselves a Christian to do as Paul wrote to those who called themselves Christians in Corinth;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
That includes all who call themselves Christians; including myself.
Thanks
RC
Yet everyone here who speaks of not sinning has done so... Some on the very thread about not sinning...Are they part of "the majority of folks who call themselves Christion, but keep sinning." you spoke of?
Does it matter? I mean, all your Calvinistic talk about how man's free-will and actions determine nothing in the universe, right? Since when did you start caring about man's choices?
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:10:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
He doesn't need to.
Actually is a valid question and those who preach(and not practice) a sinless life tend to avoid it...
quote:
Man's actions do not determine truth.
Of course not, but man's actions are evidence to the reality of the situation...
quote:
Until you (and many others) understand this crucial fact, debate will be nearly impossible due to the substitution of substantial arguments with subjectively frail arguments.
You argue that because it's possible it must takes place, yet you are not an example of what you preach... You believe so strongly in it, yet don't practice it... So what is a person observing supposed to believe?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:11:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yet everyone here who speaks of not sinning has done so... Some on the very thread about not sinning...Are they part of "the majority of folks who call themselves Christion, but keep sinning." you spoke of?
Are you sure that everyone has sinned after they became temples of the Holy Spirit? With that kind of "Psysic" abilities, maybe you could give me the lotto numbers for tomorrow night?
quote:
Actually it really comes down to how one defines sin and those who preach (not practice) a sinless life tend to have such a narrow idea of sin they make it practically impossible for themselves to sin... Convenient to say the least...
How about your definition of sin, and more to the point; how about tell me what I define as sin, or drmark, or evry1needsgod?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:13:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Honestly, it only matters (for this discussion) how YOU define sin.
I am sure you believe so... Let everyone define sin for themselves...
quote:
For those of us who believe that it is possible to live the rest of our lives without committing another sin, it doesn't matter how sin is defined.
Actually those who preach(and not practice) do in fact define sin... And they do so in such away one would have a better chance flying to the moon holding their breath than sinning...
quote:
ALL sin, regardless to how you define it, is avoidable per 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16. You can define it as you wish, but in the end such definitions are mere ploys to give you the advantage you need to convince yourself of sinful defeat.
But I know, through the Words of God Almighty, that all sin is avoidable through the shed blood of Christ! Amen!
In Christ,
ZG
Yet you don't avoid it....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:14:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Does the above include those here who preach but not practice sinless life?
I encourage everyone who calls themselves a Christian to do as Paul wrote to those who called themselves Christians in Corinth;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
That includes all who call themselves Christians; including myself.
Thanks
RC
Yet everyone here who speaks of not sinning has done so... Some on the very thread about not sinning...Are they part of "the majority of folks who call themselves Christion, but keep sinning." you spoke of?
Does it matter? I mean, all your Calvinistic talk about how man's free-will and actions determine nothing in the universe, right? Since when did you start caring about man's choices?
Never once have a denied man's free will... Nice attempt to dodge... And please don't respond with some take this talk to the C/A thread... You, brought this up....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:18:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Are you sure that everyone has sinned after they became temples of the Holy Spirit? With that kind of "Psysic" abilities, maybe you could give me the lotto numbers for tomorrow night?
The biggest proponents of the sinless life here have.... Some on the very thread about the topic...
quote:
How about your definition of sin, and more to the point; how about tell me what I define as sin, or drmark, or evry1needsgod?
Thanks
RC
Should I have a personal definition of sin?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:23:22 PM
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insndreamer
Posts: 44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
How do you define repentance, Clayton? I believe that the Biblical definition of repentance is a complete change of heart and mind, performing a U-turn from sin to Christ. There is no repentance if sin is inevitable, my friend. There is no change, there is not new creature, there is no new nature in Christ. Repentance is COMPLETE change, correct? Hence the reason why we are commanded to repent of our sins when we commit them...we are commanded to do such because repentance is nonexistent with sin.
So if one believes that it is impossible to stop sinning, then how would one define repentance? It certainly can not be defined as a COMPLETE change, now can it?
In Christ,
ZG
The argument has gone from trying to get people to admit that even though it's not probable, it's possible to stop sinning completely, to saying that anyone who still sins is not truly repentant. Repentance is required for salvation, so if we say that "repentance is nonexistent with sin," then it would follow that anyone who still sins is not saved. I hope that is not what's being said here.
If our flesh is completely dead to us when we are in the Spirit, and it no longer has any influence on us, then why did God deny Paul's request to remove the thorn from his flesh, in order to keep him from becoming conceited about what he had seen?
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:25:20 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
Actually is a valid question and those who preach(and not practice) a sinless life tend to avoid it...
We avoid the question because it is proves absolutely nothing. Not only that, but not a single one of us knows the hearts of any other person that has existed, is existing, or will exist in the future. Therefore, to answer such silly questions is vain and foolish.
Furthermore, this thread has nothing to do with what evry1needsgod, drmark, or rcjames have done. If I wanted to know their personal lives, I would have started a disrespectfully intrusive thread to trespass on their personal walk with God. But alas, this thread is to discuss doctrine, and man's actions have no bearing on doctrinal truth.
quote:
Of course not, but man's actions are evidence to the reality of the situation...
Sure, yet the still prove nothing. The odds could even be 1 in a googolplex, but even that proves nothing. You're going to need something much more absolute and concrete, like Scripture.
quote:
You argue that because it's possible it must takes place, yet you are not an example of what you preach... You believe so strongly in it, yet don't practice it...
How on earth could you possibly know my motives? How could you POSSIBLY make such an accusation that I preach sinless perfection, yet apparently do not practice it?
Might I direct you to TOS rule #6, SIH.
6. You will not harass, threaten, embarrass or distress members, either in the community itself or via personal email, phone, physical mail or in person. You will not engage in name-calling or personal attacks in the course of discussion or debate. You will not post inflammatory remarks simply for the purpose for evoking reaction or starting fights with other community members (Often referred to as "trolling"). Overall, promoting a spirit of divisiveness in the chat and forums community will not be tolerated.
- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable.
Now I understand that many people are hypocrites, and perhaps you have personally witnessed such hypocrisy in individuals who preach this doctrine. Therefore, you are entitled to your right to be wary of such hypocrisy. But do not personally attack my own motives again, SIH.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:33:19 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Does the above include those here who preach but not practice sinless life?
I encourage everyone who calls themselves a Christian to do as Paul wrote to those who called themselves Christians in Corinth;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
That includes all who call themselves Christians; including myself.
Thanks
RC
Yet everyone here who speaks of not sinning has done so... Some on the very thread about not sinning...Are they part of "the majority of folks who call themselves Christion, but keep sinning." you spoke of?
Does it matter? I mean, all your Calvinistic talk about how man's free-will and actions determine nothing in the universe, right? Since when did you start caring about man's choices?
Never once have a denied man's free will... Nice attempt to dodge... And please don't respond with some take this talk to the C/A thread... You, brought this up....
Free will is not Calvinism. It is quite necessary for sinless perfection to be true, actually. And since you apparently agree with me, then I guess there is nothing further to discuss concerning man's choices.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:41:17 PM
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qalel
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Sin is any time our thoughts, words, actions, emotions, desires, impulses and judgments stray from the absolute standard of God’s moral perfection.
It includes sins of ignorance: Leviticus 4:2, 13: “Say to the Israelites: ‘When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands. . . If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.”
It includes involuntary sins and sins which our will is incapable of resisting: Romans 7, doing what you don’t want to do.
It includes sins where you believe you are doing the right thing: Luke 23:34 Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing. (The Jewish leaders thought Jesus was not the Son of God, so they thought he really did deserve death. They were doing right in their own minds, yet it was sin. And not just if and when the Holy Spirit convinced them it was sin.) In 1 Chronicles 13, Uzzah was trying to do the right thing, steadying the ark when the oxen stumbled, but it was sin to touch the ark, God’s anger burned against Uzzah and he died.
It includes actions when God has not even told us not to do something: Romans 5:13. Sin was in the world before God ever gave any commandments. Cain was punished for murder, even though God had never said, You shall not kill.
It includes sins of omission: Luke 12:47, James 4:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”
That’s a big one. Compare your life to Christ’s. He put so much time and energy into helping and loving other people, that his family wanted to take him, because he wasn’t taking time to eat and sleep. If you aren’t doing as much, then your love falls short of the perfect standard and you are sinning, right now, just sitting at your computer when you could be feeding the hungry and visiting people in prison (when’s the last time Jesus could say of you that you visited him there?).
It is even sin when you do the right thing but your motives are not absolutely pure and perfect. Isaiah 64:6 All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. A believer said that. Even the most righteous thing we do has a little bit of self-interest behind it. When you do good, part of the reason is because of what you get out of it. It’s not the absolutely pure motivation that the law requires. And if you disagree regarding your own motives, then you’re not looking deep enough.
Some silly accusations have been made against those who say that we can not completely escape sin while we live in the flesh. I’d even say slanderous and deliberately lying in some cases, by those who still think they don’t sin.
To set the record straight. This is not saying that we must sin in the sense of being unable to say no to sin. But sin is inevitable, both in the long run and in the ways that even our obedience falls short of what it could be.
This is not excusing sin or encouraging half-heartedness in avoiding sin. On the contrary, it is taught with the desire to exalt God’s perfection as being greater than you ever imagined (just as his thoughts are so much higher than ours, so is his righteousness). And it stresses the seriousness of sin, that even the smallest, most harmless deviation from perfection is damnable, evil sin that we must root out and seek to eradicate. It’s a way of saying that no matter how good you think you are doing, you can do better. If I say that no baseball player can bat a thousand, am I encouraging athletes to say that it’s okay to be satisfied with striking out nine times out of ten, or even not bothering to swing the bat? Philippians 3:12-14 “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”
Isaiah 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” That doesn’t just mean he’s smarter than we are. It means that his righteousness, his perfect thoughts and actions exceed anything we are capable of. A moral superiority, as indicated by the previous verse, “Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.” Even after coming to faith, God’s ways are far superior to mine, unreachable even. I say that to God’s glory, not to excuse my lack of perfection or to say why bother trying to reach as close to God’s ways as I can.
God has no obligation to make it possible to obey the law perfectly. To make that claim either means that God is required to lower his standards to a level we can achieve, or that he owes it to us to give us the ability to be perfect. He owes us nothing. Someone compared it to a parent punishing a child for not being able to reach the top shelf. But that doesn’t fit, because it is our own sinful nature that is responsible for our short stature. Your claim is that God is unjust if he doesn’t lower the shelf (which he can reach just fine) to a level that the shortest child can reach, or that you reject any God who won’t make you as tall as he is. The law was not created to give us something we can achieve. It always existed in the character of God, and was expressed to us to reveal that perfect standard of righteousness. Whether we can achieve it, either from birth or after coming to faith with the Holy Spirit’s assistance, is all besides the point. Besides which, for all those who are in Christ, there is no punishment, so where’s the injustice?
Someone accused us of claiming that it’s a sin to stub your toe. Well, if you were careless and not exercising all of the care of your body that would be perfect stewardship of what God has created, then yes it is a sin. If it happens through absolutely no fault of your own, then there is no morality in the matter, but this suffering, as with all other suffering, serves as a reminder that we are sinners living in a sin cursed world, and unless you repent, you will perish.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:41:33 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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dreamer,
quote:
The argument has gone from trying to get people to admit that even though it's not probable, it's possible to stop sinning completely, to saying that anyone who still sins is not truly repentant. Repentance is required for salvation, so if we say that "repentance is nonexistent with sin," then it would follow that anyone who still sins is not saved. I hope that is not what's being said here.
No no no, that's not the argument at all.
May I ask you a question? When we sin, what are we commanded to do? Repent, correct? Basically say sorry and ask for forgiveness, right?
Well if this is true, then repentance does not exist with sin. It can't. If we sin, then we have, for a moment, acquiesced to our sinful desires and taken our focus completely off of the leading of the Holy Spirit. At the moment we sin, we are not repented because at that moment we have "veered off the path", for lack of better words.
However, salvation repentance changed (regenerated) us. This is why we are a new creature. But if we inevitably will fail, and there's nothing we can do about it, then have we really changed? Was it a COMPLETE change? That doesn't sound very complete to me, dreamer. It sounds more like a half-hearted, partial change of our mind/heart/nature instead of the Biblical truth of COMPLETION.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:52:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
We avoid the question because it is proves absolutely nothing. Not only that, but not a single one of us knows the hearts of any other person that has existed, is existing, or will exist in the future. Therefore, to answer such silly questions is vain and foolish.
Yes to those who preach it for the obvious reason since they tend to wish this debate take place in some place far from reality where the possibility of something equate to it happening...
quote:
Furthermore, this thread has nothing to do with what evry1needsgod, drmark, or rcjames have done.
I beg to differ... The actions of those who preach something do in fact have something to do with the thread in my opinion...
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Sure, yet the still prove nothing. The odds could even be 1 in a googolplex, but even that proves nothing. You're going to need something much more absolute and concrete, like Scripture.
The actions of man are no less concrete...
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Might I direct you to TOS rule #6, SIH.
Are you a moderator?
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How on earth could you possibly know my motives?
Never mentions motives...
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How could you POSSIBLY make such an accusation that I preach sinless perfection, yet apparently do not practice it?
Because you admitted you sinned...
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But do not personally attack my own motives again, SIH.
In Christ,
ZG
I never have...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:54:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Free will is not Calvinism.
Reformed Theology doesn't deny free will, it simply doesn't assign it redemptive power and rightly so...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 1:55:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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qalel,
quote:
To set the record straight. This is not saying that we must sin in the sense of being unable to say no to sin. But sin is inevitable, both in the long run and in the ways that even our obedience falls short of what it could be.
Then you do not comprehend the logical necessities for your POV to be true. May I encourage you to go back and read what's already been written. There are many requirements for your doctrine to be true that not a single person has explained so far. Either they have simply ignored the logic, or they continue to deny it without any counter explanation whatsoever.
If you want to take a stab at it, I'd like to heart your thoughts. If you need me to, I can go ahead and review the logic once more for your understanding.
quote:
God has no obligation to make it possible to obey the law perfectly.
His obligation is found in that one simple yet ineffably profound, aspect of His Nature called LOVE.
Look at the beginning of creation, qalel. God set this precedent long ago in the garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of one single tree, and He provided a way for them to obey said commandment by providing them with thousands of other trees that would produce enough food to fill their bellies for an eternity. He certainly could have made that one single tree the ONLY tree in the garden, and then told them that they could not eat of it even though this would mean they would starve. But, the God we serve is a God of LOVE, my friend.
And then a few chapters later, God provided a way for mankind to escape His judgment--Noah's ark. The invitation to escape God's wrath was given to everyone. He certainly could have killed everyone if He wanted, but again, the God we serve is a God of love.
So you could not be any further from the truth, my friend. God set the precedent of love at the beginning of creation, and that precedent is still resonating to this day. God HAS made it possible to perfectly obey Him! Read 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16.
quote:
To make that claim either means that God is required to lower his standards to a level we can achieve, or that he owes it to us to give us the ability to be perfect. He owes us nothing.
He can not break His promises, nor can He contradict His Nature.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:01:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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SIH,
quote:
I beg to differ... The actions of those who preach something do in fact have something to do with the thread in my opinion...
If I lie, this does not make my preaching against lying false. Nope, lying is still wrong even if the one preaching said truth is a hypocrite.
Man's actions do not determine truth.
quote:
Are you a moderator?
I am the author of this thread, and have chosen to run my thread in a very strict manner considering the history of the previous thread. If you can not take my rebuke, feel free to report me.
quote:
Because you admitted you sinned...
Romans 3:23
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:06:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
qalel,
quote:
To set the record straight. This is not saying that we must sin in the sense of being unable to say no to sin. But sin is inevitable, both in the long run and in the ways that even our obedience falls short of what it could be.
Then you do not comprehend the logical necessities for your POV to be true. May I encourage you to go back and read what's already been written. There are many requirements for your doctrine to be true that not a single person has explained so far. Either they have simply ignored the logic, or they continue to deny it without any counter explanation whatsoever.
If you want to take a stab at it, I'd like to heart your thoughts. If you need me to, I can go ahead and review the logic once more for your understanding.
quote:
God has no obligation to make it possible to obey the law perfectly.
His obligation is found in that one simple yet ineffably profound, aspect of His Nature called LOVE.
Look at the beginning of creation, qalel. God set this precedent long ago in the garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of one single tree, and He provided a way for them to obey said commandment by providing them with thousands of other trees that would produce enough food to fill their bellies for an eternity. He certainly could have made that one single tree the ONLY tree in the garden, and then told them that they could not eat of it even though this would mean they would starve. But, the God we serve is a God of LOVE, my friend.
And then a few chapters later, God provided a way for mankind to escape His judgment--Noah's ark. The invitation to escape God's wrath was given to everyone. He certainly could have killed everyone if He wanted, but again, the God we serve is a God of love.
So you could not be any further from the truth, my friend. God set the precedent of love at the beginning of creation, and that precedent is still resonating to this day. God HAS made it possible to perfectly obey Him! Read 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16.
quote:
To make that claim either means that God is required to lower his standards to a level we can achieve, or that he owes it to us to give us the ability to be perfect. He owes us nothing.
He can not break His promises, nor can He contradict His Nature.
In Christ,
ZG
Creation was subject to vanity by God's decree... And God saved eight and the rest of humanity drowned while animals were safe and warm....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:13:55 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
qalel,
quote:
To set the record straight. This is not saying that we must sin in the sense of being unable to say no to sin. But sin is inevitable, both in the long run and in the ways that even our obedience falls short of what it could be.
Then you do not comprehend the logical necessities for your POV to be true. May I encourage you to go back and read what's already been written. There are many requirements for your doctrine to be true that not a single person has explained so far. Either they have simply ignored the logic, or they continue to deny it without any counter explanation whatsoever.
If you want to take a stab at it, I'd like to heart your thoughts. If you need me to, I can go ahead and review the logic once more for your understanding.
quote:
God has no obligation to make it possible to obey the law perfectly.
His obligation is found in that one simple yet ineffably profound, aspect of His Nature called LOVE.
Look at the beginning of creation, qalel. God set this precedent long ago in the garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of one single tree, and He provided a way for them to obey said commandment by providing them with thousands of other trees that would produce enough food to fill their bellies for an eternity. He certainly could have made that one single tree the ONLY tree in the garden, and then told them that they could not eat of it even though this would mean they would starve. But, the God we serve is a God of LOVE, my friend.
And then a few chapters later, God provided a way for mankind to escape His judgment--Noah's ark. The invitation to escape God's wrath was given to everyone. He certainly could have killed everyone if He wanted, but again, the God we serve is a God of love.
So you could not be any further from the truth, my friend. God set the precedent of love at the beginning of creation, and that precedent is still resonating to this day. God HAS made it possible to perfectly obey Him! Read 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16.
quote:
To make that claim either means that God is required to lower his standards to a level we can achieve, or that he owes it to us to give us the ability to be perfect. He owes us nothing.
He can not break His promises, nor can He contradict His Nature.
In Christ,
ZG
Creation was subject to vanity by God's decree... And God saved eight and the rest of humanity drowned while animals were safe and warm....
And yet, in both cases God did that pesky thing of proving a way for man to freely choose obedience. 
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:16:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
If I lie, this does not make my preaching against lying false. Nope, lying is still wrong even if the one preaching said truth is a hypocrite.
Correct, but it is in fact evidence of the reality of the situation...
quote:
Man's actions do not determine truth.
Neither does the probability of something...
quote:
I am the author of this thread, and have chosen to run my thread in a very strict manner considering the history of the previous thread. If you can not take my rebuke, feel free to report me.
You can operate the thread within the TOS as you like, but playing Moderator and waving the TOS around isn't really within your prerogative... I never mentioned motives.. I simply pointed out the reality/truth of the situation regarding yourself and you accused me of attacking you...
As for your rebuke... Since I did not mention motives and I clearly spoke of your own admitted actions it's clear your accusations against me was false, hence there can be no rebuke...
quote:
Romans 3:23
Not sure what the Romans 3:23 has to do with what I said given the context of the situation... I was pointing out you admitted something as the premise for my statement...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:17:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
qalel,
quote:
To set the record straight. This is not saying that we must sin in the sense of being unable to say no to sin. But sin is inevitable, both in the long run and in the ways that even our obedience falls short of what it could be.
Then you do not comprehend the logical necessities for your POV to be true. May I encourage you to go back and read what's already been written. There are many requirements for your doctrine to be true that not a single person has explained so far. Either they have simply ignored the logic, or they continue to deny it without any counter explanation whatsoever.
If you want to take a stab at it, I'd like to heart your thoughts. If you need me to, I can go ahead and review the logic once more for your understanding.
quote:
God has no obligation to make it possible to obey the law perfectly.
His obligation is found in that one simple yet ineffably profound, aspect of His Nature called LOVE.
Look at the beginning of creation, qalel. God set this precedent long ago in the garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of one single tree, and He provided a way for them to obey said commandment by providing them with thousands of other trees that would produce enough food to fill their bellies for an eternity. He certainly could have made that one single tree the ONLY tree in the garden, and then told them that they could not eat of it even though this would mean they would starve. But, the God we serve is a God of LOVE, my friend.
And then a few chapters later, God provided a way for mankind to escape His judgment--Noah's ark. The invitation to escape God's wrath was given to everyone. He certainly could have killed everyone if He wanted, but again, the God we serve is a God of love.
So you could not be any further from the truth, my friend. God set the precedent of love at the beginning of creation, and that precedent is still resonating to this day. God HAS made it possible to perfectly obey Him! Read 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16.
quote:
To make that claim either means that God is required to lower his standards to a level we can achieve, or that he owes it to us to give us the ability to be perfect. He owes us nothing.
He can not break His promises, nor can He contradict His Nature.
In Christ,
ZG
Creation was subject to vanity by God's decree... And God saved eight and the rest of humanity drowned while animals were safe and warm....
And yet, in both cases God did that pesky thing of proving a way for man to freely choose obedience.
You seem to assume that Christ was a afterthought and God ever intended for more than eight to be on the ark... God didn't make creation subject to vanity for no reason....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:32:54 PM
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insndreamer
Posts: 44
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
However, salvation repentance changed (regenerated) us. This is why we are a new creature. But if we inevitably will fail, and there's nothing we can do about it, then have we really changed? Was it a COMPLETE change? That doesn't sound very complete to me, dreamer. It sounds more like a half-hearted, partial change of our mind/heart/nature instead of the Biblical truth of COMPLETION.
Is it possible to be a half-hearted Christian? Either one accepts God's grace or they don't. I don't know how one can half-heartedly accept His grace.
Paul didn't seem to think he was already complete:
Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:46:56 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: insndreamer
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
However, salvation repentance changed (regenerated) us. This is why we are a new creature. But if we inevitably will fail, and there's nothing we can do about it, then have we really changed? Was it a COMPLETE change? That doesn't sound very complete to me, dreamer. It sounds more like a half-hearted, partial change of our mind/heart/nature instead of the Biblical truth of COMPLETION.
Is it possible to be a half-hearted Christian? Either one accepts God's grace or they don't. I don't know how one can half-heartedly accept His grace.
Paul didn't seem to think he was already complete:
Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
I think you've misunderstood me. The change of heart and mind from a nature to sin to a nature of righteousness must be complete (in terms of un-glorified completion). What I mean is that we were a certain way when we were unsaved, but after salvation we are now absolutely and completely different. Repentance is an absolute and complete change of mind. However, if one will inevitably fail, then they are no different than before. That is not repentance, my friend. That's "I'll do as best I can even though the best I can is absolutely nothing".
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:56:07 PM
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copybingo
Posts: 21
Joined: 10/15/2009
Status: offline
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I cannot read the thoughts of the posters, for sure, however some of the "heat" in the postings suggests the thoughts behind some of the posts may be "heated" also. I can almost see the finger wagging going on if this discussion was taking place in person. Would the Lord consider it sin by taking His name in vain when signing off one of these "heated" posts with the words "In Christ" or by the use of His word(a scripture) as a signature? Just asking.
Sarcasm. Thoughts that are less than loving. They drip off the posts. Selfishness as to your position. You're proving by your posts that living a life without sin is impossible. For those lurkers who may not be as "advanced" in doctrinal issues or as far along in their walk, or worse yet, a non-believer checking out the site...what a witness.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/6/2009 2:57:12 PM
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qalel
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Then you do not comprehend the logical necessities for your POV to be true. May I encourage you to go back and read what's already been written. There are many requirements for your doctrine to be true that not a single person has explained so far. Either they have simply ignored the logic, or they continue to deny it without any counter explanation whatsoever.
I was thinking the very same thing about you. I understand the logic quite well. I have been following the whole thread. I just didn’t feel compelled to add my two cents until now. And, no I don’t feel like going back and answering every silly claim you and your friends have made as supposedly logical imperatives of what I believe, but I have seen nothing that I couldn’t explain. It is your logic that reaches conclusions about what other people teach without understanding those teachings (which is clear from the way you have distorted them) that sees contradictions where there are none.
quote:
His obligation is found in that one simple yet ineffably profound, aspect of His Nature called LOVE.
You’re kidding, right? If he is obligated by his love, then he would logically have no choice but to do the same for all people. If he is obligated by his love, then he not only is obligated to grant us salvation, which he didn’t owe us, but also to make it possible to obey his law perfectly in this life, so why didn’t it obligate him to make it possible for all people to live perfectly their whole lives. Why doesn’t it make universalism obligatory? For that matter, why didn’t it obligate him to make it impossible for us to sin. You can’t say that would wrong, since that’s exactly what he’s going to do to us in heaven.
quote:
Look at the beginning of creation, qalel. God set this precedent long ago in the garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of one single tree, and He provided a way for them to obey said commandment by providing them with thousands of other trees that would produce enough food to fill their bellies for an eternity. He certainly could have made that one single tree the ONLY tree in the garden, and then told them that they could not eat of it even though this would mean they would starve. But, the God we serve is a God of LOVE, my friend.
But love did not “obligate” him to create those trees. You’re taking something God did out of love and claiming he was obligated to do it. I see it differently. I think he could have very lovingly created just one tree and then said, don’t eat. How would that be loving? Simply because it would have given Adam and Eve something great they could do for God. It would have been a privilege to starve to death to show their devotion to God. Instead, God filled the garden with fruit trees, lovingly, but also to show that when they sinned they had no excuse.
quote:
And then a few chapters later, God provided a way for mankind to escape His judgment--Noah's ark. The invitation to escape God's wrath was given to everyone. He certainly could have killed everyone if He wanted, but again, the God we serve is a God of love.
You’re lobbing nice big fat slow pitches for me to hit, aren’t you? How kind. First, remember what God said before the flood, “every inclination of man’s heart was evil all the time (Gen 6:5).” He said exactly the same thing after the flood, when the only people alive were the believing family of Noah (Gen 8:21). And then Noah got drunk and Ham laughed at sin. Where was God’s obligation to make the one family that his love spared lovingly perfect?
quote:
So you could not be any further from the truth, my friend. God set the precedent of love at the beginning of creation, and that precedent is still resonating to this day. God HAS made it possible to perfectly obey Him! Read 1Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16.
Read 1 Cor 10:12, “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” That warning especially applies to those who think they are perfect. It is both pride and complacency that are part and parcel with your assumption that you have a rock solid position of perfection.
Read Gal 5:17. It shows that we still have a sinful nature, so that you do what you do not want. That can not refer to unbelievers, since they do not experience any war between the Spirit and the sinful nature. You do not do what you want. He must be speaking to believers who still have a sinful nature. Unbelievers do what they want, sin.
< Message edited by qalel -- 11/6/2009 3:05:51 PM >
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