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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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[Poll]
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Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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Total Votes : 54
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 9:15:03 AM)
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 10:28:44 PM
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quixote
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P1 If Christians believe any false proposition regarding God and God's word, or deem a true, knowable proposition regarding God and God's word false or unknowable, a sin of commission occurs .
P2 All Christians believe false propositions about God and God's word, or deem a true, knowable proposition false or unknowable, throughout the entirety of their lifetime.
C A sinless Christian life is not possible.
Who among us believes only true propositions about God and God's word, or deems no true, knowable propositions false?
P1 If Christians fail to live a life as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ, sins of commission occur.
P2 No Christian lives a life as morally blameless or as positively virtuous as Christ.
C A sinless Christian life is not possible.
Who among us claims to be as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ?
_____________________________
The Areopagus
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 10:45:59 PM
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laura...
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quote:
Who among us claims to be as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ?
I do. Every Christian is. I understand the idea of "positional righteousness" as apposed to "practical righteousness". However, we are either in Christ or not in Christ. If we are in Christ then we are as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ. If we find that our actions are not progressively lining up with the righteousness we have in Christ Jesus then we need to either adjust our actions or examine whether or not we are in Christ.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:11:18 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But if we define sin as previously stated "missing the mark" and that mark being just like Jesus then no I don't think it is possible in this life. tdd, can you please provide an example of any behavior, thought, or attitude in which it is not possible to be just like Jesus in this life? Why could He in His humanity do something that is not possible for us to do in our humanity?
quote:
I maintain that we will never be sinless practically in this life. Indeed, that is a self-fulfilling prophecy, Intrepidus. Please name one sin that any Believer is unable to stop.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:17:21 PM
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drmark
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quote:
P2 All Christians believe false propositions about God and God's word, or deem a true, knowable proposition false or unknowable, throughout the entirety of their lifetime. How do you know this to be true, quixote? Obviously you cannot know every Christian who has ever lived to make such a bold statement!
quote:
However, we are either in Christ or not in Christ. If we are in Christ then we are as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ. If we find that our actions are not progressively lining up with the righteousness we have in Christ Jesus then we need to either adjust our actions or examine whether or not we are in Christ. Amen, sister! There can be no real "positional (imputed) righteousness without corresponding "practical" (imparted) righteousness. One's standing in Christ must be the same as one's state of Christ in oneself. We are saved both in our sin and from our sin.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:19:47 PM
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quixote
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"If we are in Christ then we are as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ."
Absolutely, Laura...no question.
But that's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking if anyone lives a life as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ.
_____________________________
The Areopagus
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:23:37 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I'm asking if anyone lives a life as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ. When we abide in Christ and God's seed remains in us, we do not sin - 1 John 3:6 and 9.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:36:53 PM
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DoveMinistries
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quote:
Who among us claims to be as morally blameless and as positively virtuous as Christ?
Here, me me me!
1John 3:7 Little children let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
lets go on down to 1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Now to answer your question:
1John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
This is just 1John on this subject and only chapter 3, Romans is also very clear about it. Unless you just read chapter 7 and if you do he is speaking of before accepting Christ.
Now 1John chapter 2 verse 3-4 is also very clear about continuing in sin. (look this one up)
Now this is scripture not my opinion, and this is just in the book of 1John it goes on and on in other books.
And for the record, where does it say we continue in sin after we accept Christ as our savior?
God Bless
R. Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:44:36 PM
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Ps103
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We are veering off the topic again.
The question is "Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning?"
We have already determined that we are not discussing sinless perfection, which no one can or will achieve on this mortal coil. If one is sure they have achieved such, I suggest they look up "pride."
And we are not talking about our position in Christ, as that is *His* righteousness, and not our own.
So we are left with what you and I do, day in-day out.
Do we *have* to sin?
Duuuuh...no.
There is no biological imperative to sin, despite what young folks say when they get caught together.
Sin doesn't just happen, it is a choice.
Perfection is a condition; sinning is an action--something we *do* as opposed to something we *are.*
We *always* have the choice not to sin, therefore it is possible for a Christian to stop sinning.
But, it is not something that will ever stop as long as we are alive, though, making these choices. It will pop up continually, daily, and you will never be able to say "I got there! I stopped sinning!" because as soon as you do, you will have let your guard down and you will be toast 
So yes, it is possible for a Christian to stop sinning. But it is something that is dealt with on a sin-by-sin basis, so it is a continual thing and not a state you achieve.
Try to look at it like the Alcoholics Anonymous people--one day at a time.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/23/2009 11:59:10 PM
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drmark
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quote:
We have already determined that we are not discussing sinless perfection, which no one can or will achieve on this mortal coil. If one is sure they have achieved such, I suggest they look up "pride." No ma'am, we have not "already determined that"! "Perfect sinlessness" is found only in heaven, but I will continue to maintain that sinless perfection is eminently possible on this mortal coil. A Christian is sinless when purified from all sin by the Blood of Christ, is not presently sinning and has no intention of future sinning. Perfection is the Christlike attitude of the heart in which a sanctified Believer loves God and neighbor with all their being. To be sinless and perfect are both commanded in Scripture and thus they are possible to attain (not achieve), by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 12:33:05 AM
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quixote
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14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
_____________________________
The Areopagus
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 1:07:49 AM
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tdd1975
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quote:
tdd, can you please provide an example of any behavior, thought, or attitude in which it is not possible to be just like Jesus in this life?
Love. Christ is our perfect example of love and we all fall short of that mark.
Love is the fulfillment of the law. You can’t disconnect the two. The apostle told the Thessalonians to grow more and more in love. Christ was already perfect in love. He needed no one to tell Him to abound in brotherly love more and more.
1Th 4:9-10 ESV Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, (10) for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more,
Even Wesley recognized our weakness in the love area.
3. The highest perfection which man can attain, while the soul dwells in
the body, does not exclude ignorances and error, and a thousand other
infirmities. Now, from wrong judgments, wrong words and actions will
often necessarily flow: And, in some cases, wrong affections also may
spring; from the same source. I may judge wrong of you; I may think more
or less highly of you than I ought to think; and this mistake in my
judgment may not only occasion something wrong in my behaviors but it
may have a still deeper effect; it may occasion something wrong in my
affection. From a wrong apprehension, I may love and esteem you either
more or less than I ought. SERMON 76
ON PERFECTION.
“Let us go on into perfection.” <580601>Hebrews 6:1.
I know you probably disagree but I believe blaming one’s lack of love on wrong apprehensions or misjudgment is making an excuse for what is plainly sin. We are at fault for not loving as Christ did.
As far as your second question I would have to think on that one. It is late. Good night all.
PS Wesley also said in that same sermon.
“Love is” now “the fulfilling of the law,” which is given to fallen
man. This is not, with respect to us, “the perfect law.” But even against
this, through the present weakness of our understanding, we are
continually liable to transgress. Therefore every man living needs the blood
of atonement, or he could not stand before God.Of which I am in total agreement!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 7:37:30 AM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We have already determined that we are not discussing sinless perfection, which no one can or will achieve on this mortal coil. If one is sure they have achieved such, I suggest they look up "pride." No ma'am, we have not "already determined that"! "Perfect sinlessness" is found only in heaven, but I will continue to maintain that sinless perfection is eminently possible on this mortal coil. A Christian is sinless when purified from all sin by the Blood of Christ, is not presently sinning and has no intention of future sinning. Perfection is the Christlike attitude of the heart in which a sanctified Believer loves God and neighbor with all their being. To be sinless and perfect are both commanded in Scripture and thus they are possible to attain (not achieve), by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
What is the difference between "Perfect sinlessness", which you admit is only found in heaven, and "sinless perfection", which you claim is possible now?
I understand that when God sees us, He sees us through the filter of Christ, so we are seen as righteous. That aside, drmark, are you completely perfect? You continuously claim that it's possible. Have you attained sinless perfection? Can you claim with all honest that it's been years (or however long) since you've last done anything that wasn't completely one hundred percent righteous and perfect to God's standard, either deliberately or instinctively?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 8:57:36 AM
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laura...
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quote:
I understand that when God sees us, He sees us through the filter of Christ, so we are seen as righteous.
God doesn't just see us as righteous through the filter of Christ. Christ Jesus MADE us righteous. He cleansed us of all unrighteousness and sin. When God sees us, He sees us as righteous because our sin is gone.
All of the New Testament writers wrote as though it was absolutely possible for those who are in Christ Jesus to walk continually in the Spirit and to not commit sin. They wrote as though sinless perfection was not just possible but attainable. However, they also wrote that such perfection was not a requirement for salvation. So, if we should sin we are still cleansed by the blood of Jesus. The fact that I still fail and I do sin doesn't change what the bible teaches.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 8:58:36 AM
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rwe2156
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It is not possible to stop sinning as long as there
is one Adam  of the old man in us.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 9:17:30 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7 has been interpreted many ways by many Bible scholars and theologians much brighter than I will ever be! My personal understanding is that Paul described the Christian with a sinful nature in chapter 7 and the Christian with the spiritual nature in chapter 8. I realize there are alternative interpretations just as valid, but I will never accept that Christians must always sin daily based on chapter 7.
quote:
What is the difference between "Perfect sinlessness", which you admit is only found in heaven, and "sinless perfection", which you claim is possible now? I've stated my position as clearly as I can at least twice here. One last approach and then we need to go to the new "What is sinless perfection?" thread:
Perfect sinlessness is the inability to ever sin again. I believe this occurs at final sanctification (glorification). Sinless perfection is the ability to not sin now. I believe this occurs at entire sanctification. I prefer not to use the phrase "possible to stop sinning" because the time parameter is poorly defined, but that is the subject of the OP that we should focus on.
quote:
God doesn't just see us as righteous through the filter of Christ. Christ Jesus MADE us righteous. He cleansed us of all unrighteousness and sin. When God sees us, He sees us as righteous because our sin is gone.
All of the New Testament writers wrote as though it was absolutely possible for those who are in Christ Jesus to walk continually in the Spirit and to not commit sin. They wrote as though sinless perfection was not just possible but attainable. However, they also wrote that such perfection was not a requirement for salvation. So, if we should sin we are still cleansed by the blood of Jesus. The fact that I still fail and I do sin doesn't change what the bible teaches Amen, laura! You're preaching like a Holiness evangelist!
quote:
It is not possible to stop sinning as long as there
is one Adam of the old man in us. Correct! Then we must crucify the old man, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by drmark -- 10/24/2009 9:24:39 AM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:38:51 AM
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tdd1975
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Laura,
quote:
God doesn't just see us as righteous through the filter of Christ. Christ Jesus MADE us righteous. He cleansed us of all unrighteousness and sin. When God sees us, He sees us as righteous because our sin is gone.
I think that the bible is clear that they righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.
quote:
All of the New Testament writers wrote as though it was absolutely possible for those who are in Christ Jesus to walk continually in the Spirit and to not commit sin. They wrote as though sinless perfection was not just possible but attainable.
I don't believe this is true.
quote:
So, if we should sin we are still cleansed by the blood of Jesus. The fact that I still fail and I do sin doesn't change what the bible teaches.
True. It proves the bible true.
1Jn 1:8 (ASV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 11:12:08 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
How is "not sinning" different than "sinless perfection"?
Not sinning would be choosing not to sin.
Sinless perfection is the inability to sin, and no one on earth (not even Christ) was unable to sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 1:35:35 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Laura,
quote:
God doesn't just see us as righteous through the filter of Christ. Christ Jesus MADE us righteous. He cleansed us of all unrighteousness and sin. When God sees us, He sees us as righteous because our sin is gone.
I think that the bible is clear that they righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.
quote:
All of the New Testament writers wrote as though it was absolutely possible for those who are in Christ Jesus to walk continually in the Spirit and to not commit sin. They wrote as though sinless perfection was not just possible but attainable.
I don't believe this is true.
quote:
So, if we should sin we are still cleansed by the blood of Jesus. The fact that I still fail and I do sin doesn't change what the bible teaches.
True. It proves the bible true.
1Jn 1:8 (ASV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Amen. We should never deceive ourselves!
Much of this ends up being semantics, but some still believe that they can be completely without sin while still in a flesh condition, though I've yet to hear someone claim they've done this.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 1:36:38 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
How is "not sinning" different than "sinless perfection"?
Not sinning would be choosing not to sin.
Sinless perfection is the inability to sin, and no one on earth (not even Christ) was unable to sin.
Thanks
RC
It's all semantics, I suppose, but I would define the two phrases in exactly the same way.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 3:43:21 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Much of this ends up being semantics, but some still believe that they can be completely without sin while still in a flesh condition, though I've yet to hear someone claim they've done this. And why not? If a Christian is forgiven of all past sins, is purified from all sin, is not presently sinning, and has no intention to sin in the future, then that Christian is completely without sin!
The "flesh condition", if by that you mean our physical beings while living in a fallen world, is NOT inherently sinful. Willful sinning is a spiritual problem at the root, NOT a physical frailty or imperfection. That is why it is entirely possible for a Christian to stop sinning, but never to stop being physically frail and imperfect in this fallen world.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 4:01:58 PM
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laura...
Posts: 3278
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
Amen, laura! You're preaching like a Holiness evangelist!
Thank you for the compliment. &:)
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 5:56:53 PM
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evry1needsgod
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I sincerely apologize for not posting and replying to those who've posted. Things have come up, and I haven't had the time. Hopefully tonight, though, I'll begin my catch-up. Again, I apologize.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 6:54:27 PM
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rcjames
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For those that think a Christian must sin (or cannont keep from sining) I would really appreciate some Scripture to back that up that thinking.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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