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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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[Poll]
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Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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Total Votes : 54
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 9:15:03 AM)
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 6:59:09 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
How is "not sinning" different than "sinless perfection"?
Not sinning would be choosing not to sin.
Sinless perfection is the inability to sin, and no one on earth (not even Christ) was unable to sin.
Thanks
RC
It's all semantics, I suppose, but I would define the two phrases in exactly the same way.
I really do not want to belabor the point, but they are no where near the same.
Not sinning by virtue of one choosing to not sin by the Grace and power of God, versus some pie in the sky thinking that a person cannot sin is vastly different.
There are even those out there who think that all saved perople are in sinless perfection because God does not consider what they do as sin (that God cannot see our sin through the blood of Jesus, because the blood of Jesus is red, and red is an opaque color).
There just seems to be no limit to what folks will try to come up with to justify the sin in their lives.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 7:20:34 PM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
How is "not sinning" different than "sinless perfection"?
Not sinning would be choosing not to sin.
Sinless perfection is the inability to sin, and no one on earth (not even Christ) was unable to sin.
Thanks
RC
It's all semantics, I suppose, but I would define the two phrases in exactly the same way.
I really do not want to belabor the point, but they are no where near the same.
Not sinning by virtue of one choosing to not sin by the Grace and power of God, versus some pie in the sky thinking that a person cannot sin is vastly different.
There are even those out there who think that all saved perople are in sinless perfection because God does not consider what they do as sin (that God cannot see our sin through the blood of Jesus, because the blood of Jesus is red, and red is an opaque color).
There just seems to be no limit to what folks will try to come up with to justify the sin in their lives.
Thanks
RC
Like changing the definition of sin?
I'm still missing the difference I guess. "Not sinning" would make you "sinless", at least from a certain point on, no? If you strive to be sinless (which you should) and succeed (which I believe nobody can), then that makes you perfect in that endeavor. It's not about justification. I don't know where you came up with that. It's about admitting the sin in our lives and admitting that we fall short of the perfection of Christ.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 7:23:23 PM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Much of this ends up being semantics, but some still believe that they can be completely without sin while still in a flesh condition, though I've yet to hear someone claim they've done this. And why not? If a Christian is forgiven of all past sins, is purified from all sin, is not presently sinning, and has no intention to sin in the future, then that Christian is completely without sin!
The "flesh condition", if by that you mean our physical beings while living in a fallen world, is NOT inherently sinful. Willful sinning is a spiritual problem at the root, NOT a physical frailty or imperfection. That is why it is entirely possible for a Christian to stop sinning, but never to stop being physically frail and imperfect in this fallen world.
Can you honestly, clearly, and forwardly say, drmark, that since your spiritual rebirth, you have not once done a single thing which falls short of God's perfect standard (which is called sin)?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 7:45:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Can you honestly, clearly, and forwardly say, drmark, that since your spiritual rebirth, you have not once done a single thing which falls short of God's perfect standard (which is called sin)? Sorry, McF, but this threaad is not about drmark or any other specific Believer. This thread is about the possibility of choosing not to sin. But if you're really interested - I am sinless at this moment because God has forgiven my past sins (1 John 1:9), He has cleansed me from all sin (1 John 1:7), I am choosing to not sin at this moment (John 14:21), and I do not intend to disobey God in the future. So, I will let you decide if I am "falling short of God's perfect standard" based on these facts, if it's really that important for to you know.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 7:58:45 PM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Can you honestly, clearly, and forwardly say, drmark, that since your spiritual rebirth, you have not once done a single thing which falls short of God's perfect standard (which is called sin)? Sorry, McF, but this threaad is not about drmark or any other specific Believer. This thread is about the possibility of choosing not to sin. But if you're really interested - I am sinless at this moment because God has forgiven my past sins (1 John 1:9), He has cleansed me from all sin (1 John 1:7), I am choosing to not sin at this moment (John 14:21), and I do not intend to disobey God in the future. So, I will let you decide if I am "falling short of God's perfect standard" based on these facts, if it's really that important for to you know.
If nobody's attained perfection (which is SYNONYMOUS with being sinless), then I believe (maybe you don't) that casts a doubt on its possibility. Since you were so strongly advocating it being possible, I thought you must be 100% perfect, otherwise it might seem to some like a Matthew 7 speck/log situation, but you've so far avoided my questions about that.
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 8:12:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If nobody's attained perfection (which is SYNONYMOUS with being sinless) That's your semantic position, not mine! I maintain that Christian perfection is the biblically-based doctrine of imparted righteousness, by grace through faith, which claims a Believer may have her/his heart completely cleansed of the sinful nature and filled with the Love of Christ so as to intentionally be able to obey the Two Greatest Commands in all they do. If one is intentionally obeying these two "Love Commands", then she/he is without sin. I personally know scores of people who have experienced Christian perfection (defined above) and are presently living without known willful sin in their lives (defined above). It really is not all that hard, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:08:05 PM
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evry1needsgod
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McFatty,
quote:
If you can show it to me, I'll believe you. It just seems a bit off to hear people telling us that we can and should all be perfect when nobody has yet claimed to actually have achieved this. It reminds me of the speck vs plank lesson from Matthew 7.
First, there is no possible way that you can know the personal lives of every single believer in the world. Therefore, to make such an assumption is impossible. I'm willing to bet that since Scripture indeed tells us that it is possible to live the rest of our lives without sin, it not only has been occurring but also will occur in the future...and it it presently occurring in y own life. I can not guarantee that I will live the rest of my life without sin, but I'm certainly not sinning every moment of every day.
Second, your speck vs plank argument holds no bearing. The way you use this is not only un-Scriptural but also impractical.
I can honestly say that I've lied (many times). Does this mean I can never preach against lying? I've stolen, so does that mean that subject can no longer be mentioned during my sermons? And I have sinned after my salvation, but does this mean I can no longer preach the truth that a Christian does not have to sin and can indeed live a sinless life? Of course I can preach it. And I do, and I will continue to...
It would be hypocrisy for me to preach holiness only if I do not strive to be holy.
quote:
What is the difference between "Perfect sinlessness", which you admit is only found in heaven, and "sinless perfection", which you claim is possible now?
I know this was not asked to me, but I'll add my two cents if you don't mind.
One means to never BE ABLE to sin again. The other simply means that you have chosen not to sin even though it is still possible to sin and even though you may (or will) sin in the future.
"Sinless perfection" is the state that I am in immediately following forgiveness. Let's say that at this very moment I commit a sin. I realize what I've done, repent, and ask God to forgive me. Obviously He will, therefore at the moment of my forgiveness I am absolutely and completely pure. Until I sin again (if I sin again) I am sinlessly perfect. I am sinlessly perfect because I have not yet sinned within the state of purity acquired after forgiveness.
Perfect sinlessness, however, is the ability of inability Christians will possess when they enter eternity. It will no longer be possible for them to sin, therefore their sinlessness will be absolutely and completely perfected.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:16:31 PM
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evry1needsgod
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laura,
quote:
I think we more often than not cop out of the challenge by declaring it undoable.
What a priceless gem of truth, Laura!
If it is simply not possible, why would anyone even TRY to do right? No matter how hard they try, if it's not possible then at some point they MUST sin...
WAY TOO MANY Christians simply don't try because they've been told for so long the power of sin, but completely forget the power they now possess that puts the power of sin to shame!
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:20:14 PM
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drmark
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quote:
and I do not intend to disobey God in the future. Sorry, I forgot to include my reference here - Hebr 10:14.
quote:
"Sinless perfection" is the state that I am in immediately following forgiveness. Let's say that at this very moment I commit a sin. I realize what I've done, repent, and ask God to forgive me. Obviously He will, therefore at the moment of my forgiveness I am absolutely and completely pure. Until I sin again (if I sin again) I am sinlessly perfect. I am sinlessly perfect because I have not yet sinned within the state of purity acquired after forgiveness. Perhaps you would like to read my recent post on the "What is Sinless Perfection" thread? Although I remain steadfast in my own understanding and application of the term, I plan to use it infrequently in order to be more congruent with the terminology of classical Wesleyan/Holiness theology. Regardless of semantics, I am certain of the possibility I have in Christ's Love to stop sinning, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:36:46 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Int,
quote:
An excellent distinction! There are sins of commission (doing that which God forbids) and sins of omission (failing to do what God commands).
Very good point. This begs the ever-debated question of whether of not God can and does command something of us that we can not do and punish us for failing to do that which He's commanded. It is my firm opinion that He not only refuses to do such, but CAN'T because I believe it is against His Nature, and defies His justice.
I believe that man can only be accountable for the commands that man is capable of obeying. God will not punish someone for disobeying a command that he can not obey.
quote:
Christian theologians have often said that in order for a work to be truly good, it must be done (a) in obedience to God, (b) with faith in Him, and (c) to His glory alone.
I would agree, although I think (c) is an automatic result of (a) were true. Something that is in obedience to God can only be for His glory alone. Furthermore, if it is in obedience to God, God will obviously not punish you.
quote:
I strive to live-up to God's calling, but I don't wake-up every morning thinking, "OK. I can be perfect today. Just gotta try a little harder.
Well hopefully the day before you remained sinless, therefore you would not necessarily have to "try harder". But I think you certainly should wake up every morning with the goal of living absolutely perfect that day! I think EVERY Christian ought to wake up with this goal, and live it throughout the day!
But, too many Christians give up before the race begins. Too many Christians fall victim to what they believe to be the "odds" of living a day without sin, and as drmark said, they fulfill their own prophesy!
I can attest that many days have passed during my life as a Christian that, to the best of my knowledge, I have not sinned.
But guess what...if I wake up in the morning and tell myself that there's practically no way I can go throughout the day without sinning, I can guarantee that this will come true! This is, IMO, a horrible way for a Christian, who's been commanded to be holy, to live.
quote:
Nor do I hang my head at the end of the day, lamenting my absolute failure (for the 11,312th time). I realize that I won't be perfect until Christ returns and I'm glorified.
This sounds like an attempt to pacify your guilt, Intrepidus. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but why aren't you hanging your head and lamenting your failure to be perfect? Shouldn't you realize that if you walk in the Spirit you WILL NOT sin? No, you will not be perfectly sinless until Christ returns, but you most certainly can be sinlessly perfect! And you DEFINITELY ought to be utterly distraught when you fail.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:39:13 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Thank you for the invite to participate, ev1. I think I'm going to sit it out this time, though.
Well if you ever feel like hopping on the roller coaster, there will always be a seat available for you. God bless!
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:42:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
But if I understand the OP correctly this thread is not about sinless perfection. I believe we will all reach sinless perfection but not in this lifetime. This thread is about the possibility of not sinning. I believe it is entirely possible. Improbable as it may be it is still possible. We would not have been told to do so if it were not possible. As I said before God knows our flesh is weak and if we stumble, and we will, God is there to forgive us. But the fact we may all stumble does not negate the possibility of not sinning.
Sorry Qtman, I thought I was plain. Without rehashing everything I said I still believe that the heart of the debate is how we define sin. If we define sin as avoiding the biggies like adultery, murder, stealing etc. then yes it is possible. But if we define sin as previously stated "missing the mark" and that mark being just like Jesus then no I don't think it is possible in this life.
I read Him every day brother and I know I am not there. I am striving but I am not there yet.
What stops you from not being there?
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:49:18 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I have posted a part of the Lord' Prayer in this thread and the othe rand no one has answer my question bout it. If we never sin after becoming a believer or stop at some point in our walk whay in the Lord's Prayer does it say , "and forgive us our debts as we for give our debtors?" What are debts?
Actually, I did in post #5.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:51:37 PM
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evry1needsgod
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MF,
quote:
Much of this ends up being semantics, but some still believe that they can be completely without sin while still in a flesh condition, though I've yet to hear someone claim they've done this.
You have not read Romans 6, my friend. Yes we are still in the flesh, but the last time I checked we are dead to that! We've (well I have) put on a NEW man. I am a NEW creation, and old things are passed away.
What do these things mean to you, brother?
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 10:53:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
For those that think a Christian must sin (or cannont keep from sining) I would really appreciate some Scripture to back that up that thinking.
Thanks
RC
I second this. This has been rc's request for so long, and not a single person has provided an answer.
The logical conclusion to the doctrine of impossibility is that one MUST sin. Therefore, to those who think it is literally impossible to stop sinning, please provide Scripture that shows man MUST sin. Either it is possible to stop sinning, or man must sin. One must be true...
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/24/2009 11:45:05 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
laura,
quote:
I think we more often than not cop out of the challenge by declaring it undoable.
What a priceless gem of truth, Laura!
If it is simply not possible, why would anyone even TRY to do right? No matter how hard they try, if it's not possible then at some point they MUST sin...
WAY TOO MANY Christians simply don't try because they've been told for so long the power of sin, but completely forget the power they now possess that puts the power of sin to shame!
I don't think so. Some of the most sinful Christians I know are those who claim the doctrine of perfection. They are almost always full of arrogance, pride, and presumption. The only thing they have perfected is the art of looking down their noses at other Christians.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 12:24:56 AM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
laura,
quote:
I think we more often than not cop out of the challenge by declaring it undoable.
What a priceless gem of truth, Laura!
If it is simply not possible, why would anyone even TRY to do right? No matter how hard they try, if it's not possible then at some point they MUST sin...
WAY TOO MANY Christians simply don't try because they've been told for so long the power of sin, but completely forget the power they now possess that puts the power of sin to shame!
I don't think so. Some of the most sinful Christians I know are those who claim the doctrine of perfection. They are almost always full of arrogance, pride, and presumption. The only thing they have perfected is the art of looking down their noses at other Christians.
Clearly you mistake the unpopular doctrine of legalism with the doctrine of sinless perfection that millions of Christians believe and strive to uphold in their lives without being legalistically invasive.
Besides, I can just as well say that some of the most sinful Christians I know are those who believe God preordains sin and predestines some to Hell.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 8:04:46 AM
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tdd1975
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
laura,
quote:
I think we more often than not cop out of the challenge by declaring it undoable.
What a priceless gem of truth, Laura!
If it is simply not possible, why would anyone even TRY to do right? No matter how hard they try, if it's not possible then at some point they MUST sin...
WAY TOO MANY Christians simply don't try because they've been told for so long the power of sin, but completely forget the power they now possess that puts the power of sin to shame!
I don't think so. Some of the most sinful Christians I know are those who claim the doctrine of perfection. They are almost always full of arrogance, pride, and presumption. The only thing they have perfected is the art of looking down their noses at other Christians.
Clearly you mistake the unpopular doctrine of legalism with the doctrine of sinless perfection that millions of Christians believe and strive to uphold in their lives without being legalistically invasive.
Nope no mistake at all. They are one and the same. I even recall one of the believer's in perfectionism thanking God that he wasn't like other Christians who were trapped by their sin nature. (not word for word but it is close).
I remember someone else in the bible praying something similar to that while the man standing close by simply smote his breast and ask God to be merciful on him a sinner. And we know which one Jesus said went down to his house justified don't we.
quote:
Besides, I can just as well say that some of the most sinful Christians I know are those who believe God preordains sin and predestines some to Hell.
I am not going to touch this one. I believe it is for another thread.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 8:10:34 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I believe that man can only be accountable for the commands that man is capable of obeying. God will not punish someone for disobeying a command that he can not obey. e1ng, I agree in principle with this, but I wonder if there is any command of God that man is incapable of obeying, by God's grace and power? There may be commands that a person is ignorant of, but surely God is able to illumine that person's heart and empower obedience, if He so desires that person to obey.
quote:
Some of the most sinful Christians I know are those who claim the doctrine of perfection. They are almost always full of arrogance, pride, and presumption. The only thing they have perfected is the art of looking down their noses at other Christians. tdd, I obviously do not know what church circles you run in, but you need to find some real Holiness adherents with whom to associate! The very essence of Christian perfection is the eradication of self-centered pride, so your comment immediately tells me that these folks have NOT been sanctified through imparted righteousness, regardless of their doctrinal claims.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 8:16:07 AM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
MF,
quote:
Much of this ends up being semantics, but some still believe that they can be completely without sin while still in a flesh condition, though I've yet to hear someone claim they've done this.
You have not read Romans 6, my friend. Yes we are still in the flesh, but the last time I checked we are dead to that! We've (well I have) put on a NEW man. I am a NEW creation, and old things are passed away.
What do these things mean to you, brother?
I have read Romans 6, my friend. You believe it means that it's possible to live a life without ever doing anything that is a tiny speck short of the 100% perfect standard of God (which is what I mean by sin)? If so, I'd have to disagree. I do believe our natures are changed. But those living in the evil nature do good from time to time. No doubt there is newness... that's what Spiritual rebirth is....
If you're taking "passed away" to mean that a new believer can never sin from the moment of his salvation, I must disagree, because the Bible plainly allows for sin after salvation (we have an advocate with the Father). If you're not, then "passed away" must not mean that sin is necessarily totally vanquished. Instead, it is simply not in your new nature.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 8:18:42 AM
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drmark
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quote:
If you're not, then "passed away" must not mean that sin is necessarily totally vanquished. Instead, it is simply not in your new nature.
Would that mean the "new nature" is sinless, if sin is simply not there?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 8:19:32 AM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If nobody's attained perfection (which is SYNONYMOUS with being sinless) That's your semantic position, not mine! I maintain that Christian perfection is the biblically-based doctrine of imparted righteousness, by grace through faith, which claims a Believer may have her/his heart completely cleansed of the sinful nature and filled with the Love of Christ so as to intentionally be able to obey the Two Greatest Commands in all they do. If one is intentionally obeying these two "Love Commands", then she/he is without sin. I personally know scores of people who have experienced Christian perfection (defined above) and are presently living without known willful sin in their lives (defined above). It really is not all that hard, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
I am not sure of what your intentions are, but it almost seems as if you're playing word games. I am more and more confused each time I read one of your posts. I don't know how to respond because I have no clue what you're saying or even if you've answered my questions. It seems that you refuse to comment on what I consider sin to be and expect me to comment on what you consider sin to be. Is this the case?
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 10/25/2009 8:21:02 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If you're not, then "passed away" must not mean that sin is necessarily totally vanquished. Instead, it is simply not in your new nature.
Would that mean the "new nature" is sinless, if sin is simply not there?
Your nature is Godly, without a doubt. Just as the nature of the unsaved is evil. Unsaved people do good things from time to time too, even though it's totally against their nature. Everything has a reciprocal.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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