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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 11:17:14 AM
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selahgirl
Posts: 836
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: God is with you, never forget that <3
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yes, the sin of molesting a child is grotesque and hideous and worthy of hell, but...
yes, there is a beauty that remains in that person that committed that sin.
I know such ppl, in ways I pray you never do... and I can honestly say that I do not hate them, I love them, I pray God's best for them, his perfect plans, to save them, to bring them to repentance, and to fulfill the many things that he called them to perform when he fashioned them in their mother's womb. I think he still sees that child that he loves somewhere in there still, just as much as I would still love my child if he were sitting on death row for similar crimes.
God hates sin, but he loves ppl.
I will always believe that, no matter how much anger and hurt I wrestle with in the aftermath of things that selfish ppl have done. Trust me, I'm not saying the emotions involved are easy, they manifest in gut-wrenching ways... but I truly want God's plan fulfilled in the life of such a person because it's the only way to stop the cycle, to turn that ugliness into a testimony of beauty about how God has intervened, to protect future victims, to change that sinner and others locked in the same evil behavior.
God's love is so far beyond us as is his justice and his vengeance... but we are commanded to love and to trust God with the vengeance part... He will ensure justice... but he cautions us about rejoicing over that day of judgement, when that child molester gets his just rewards, we are to rejoice that there will be no more tears, but we are not to savor the loss of a soul no matter their sin...
Proverbs 24
(so much good stuff in this one psalm)
16For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
17Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
18Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
19Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked:
20For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
21My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
22For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
23These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment...
29Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 11:19:02 AM
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tuckeree
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/30/2009
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Read Romans 9:13-22 God does not love everybody, He has people that were made for vessels of dishonour.
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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 11:38:28 AM
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selahgirl
Posts: 836
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: God is with you, never forget that <3
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God looks on the heart... some ppl can repent 70 times and mean it every time, others are liars and continue in their sin... we must protect the innocent as best we can... but we cannot look upon the heart of a person, only God can. We are not called to condemn, we are called to show the sinner a better Way, just as Christ came to us and sent ppl into our lives to help us.
Christ came with genuine love... he saw our ugliness, but he saw something there that he loved... there is some measure of beauty in every soul, in mankind as a whole, Jesus was fully man afterall, tho he was without sin. Not that that beauty is something we caused or that we are deserving of, but because God sees who he created us to be and came to separate us from UGLY so we can be free to walk in the fullness of being made in the image of God.
Genuine love must see some measure of beauty. I just can't help but believe that as I read Scripture.
Perhaps that beauty is in the sense of "having value" but I see having value as something beautiful, especially when you consider how ugly our sin is and how lacking in value the world says we are. God looked at us in our worthlessness and something he saw moved his heart to pay a great price to get us back... whatever it was that he saw in us, is that beauty that the love of God sees. If we love as God loves, then we must see that same beauty in every lost soul, no matter how wretched we consider their specific sin to be.
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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 12:00:28 PM
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selahgirl
Posts: 836
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: God is with you, never forget that <3
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I cannot agree that this passage makes the case that God chooses some ppl to be born with the express purpose being to use them to dishonor his name and condemn them to hell for their sins... that is not the God of the Bible or the God that I know and trust as all that is Good and Right and Just.
I'm rushing to get out the door but even just looking at the first part of this passage, concerning the reference to Malachi... there is a context that seems to make itself known when you look more fully at the passage about Jacob and Esau...
Malachi 1
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
God is talking about loving Israel, the children of Jacob, tho the law and inheritance was supposed to pass to the older son... Esau. God broke with out of the box to show that he is God, bound to justice, but not to cold dead stone. A few words written on stone or even a library of scrolls cannot hold the complete nature and character of God... if God wants to pass the inheritance down to the second son because God declares the first son made choices that deemed himself unworthy of it... God can do that. God can break from tradition, he can break from the law that was the rule in Malachi's day.
I think God maintained a measure of love for Esau and a sorrow at his loss of the inheritance.... have you never loved and hated someone at the same time, have you never seen all that you had hoped for them and yet had to make a judgement call that cost them much because of their sin, have you never seen ugly and beauty in the same person, value and potential in someone that insists on acting unworthy and demonstrating worthless behavior.
There is still love, there is still a beauty, there is still a hope.
No one is born on this earth and not given a chance to accept Christ as Savior.
No one is born on this earth and not loved by God.
And no one is refused the chance to change before their final breath, unless they make that choice for themselves.
No one can snatch us out of his hand, but if we choose to leave,
to nose dive away from him into hell, we have that freedom.
But I think it still grieves the heart of God, because he loves every soul, and you cannot love without seeing some measure of beauty.... I just can't help what God has convinced me of.
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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 12:03:51 PM
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tuckeree
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/30/2009
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who are us and we? What time frame applys?
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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 12:15:37 PM
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selahgirl
Posts: 836
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: God is with you, never forget that <3
Status: offline
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wow, there is just so much I wish I had time to discuss with this, but I am reallllly late =)
But even Pharoh was given chance after chance with every plague.... he chose to say no. God shined the light of his presence and will upon Pharoh's heart, and like clay in the sunshine it hardened. So yeah, God hardened Pharoh's heart but not with out offering him mercy and a chance to submit to the will of the Almighty God who loved even Pharoh.
We choose if our hearts will harden like clay by saying no to the will of God that shines upon our hearts, or whether we will become like wax in his presence by allowing him to shape us and conform us into his will and his image. It is God, his light, his insight, his Truth, the revealing of his will that either hardens our hearts or softens them.
Our hearts are either good soil or bad, determined by our choices, the see is the Word, but God brings the increase. God gives life based on our submission to his will, based on his nature and character, not ours or our traditions or our doctrines. Who can understand the mind of God? He is just, he sees men's hearts, he knows where the boundaries and lines are drawn, what a heart is made of, and when it has made up it's mind.
Be blessed with an amazing weekend <3
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RE: Everyone needs someone to stand by them - 10/30/2009 4:00:03 PM
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Victory444
Posts: 134
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A friend of mine brought this thread to my attention, and I just have to reply to this... I just want to say that I totally agree with Selahgirl. Many years ago I told the Lord that I just couldn't understand how He could love me, and He revealed something to me that settled that for me once and for all. It is in one simple statement..."GOD IS LOVE". It is NOT something He does... It is who He IS. He revealed to me that He can't not Love someone. He can't stop being who He IS!
As for humanism being totally wrong... We are humans! Humanism is wrong if it is used like a doctrine unto itself. I learned long ago that is is necessary as a "BRIDGE". Most people have been so beaten up by life, and made to feel like they are worthless, and they don't believe that even God can want or love them. In my experiences I have had to help people realize that they have value in general before they can relate to God's Love. People are VESSELS, and what goes into them flows out of them. We are all victims of some kind of abuse... Whether it is intentional or in ignorance it doesn't matter. We are born into the original sin, and we don't just fall out of it...and it is hard to get out of it even if we try really hard. My point is that we all need to take to heart the saying, "But for the grace of God, there go I"! I have been very judgmental in the past, and I have been judged so unfairly myself. None of us should attempt to judge anyone in any way unless we know their whole story, and we know what has caused them to be the way we are. I have heard the history of a lot of the worst cases of death row murders, and they all were severely abused or neglected as children. I have personally had my own painful experiences with people who were abused as children. None of them have realized how abusive they were. We should try to help people like that if we can...not condemn them! They have already had enough people adding to their woundedness. God says we are to LOVE THE UNLOVABLE!!! He certainly would not expect us mortals to do that if He doesn't!!!
I have read here about the harsh judgments of God... I also used to believe that He is so angry about so much... but, He showed me that what angers Him is deliberate sin. The main thing we need to remember is that we are now under GRACE. (A friend of mine recently urged me to get a book by Joseph Prince... His ministry is focused mainly on the GRACE of God. That really helped me.) A good rule to follow is to only give to others the same amount of grace that we expect to receive. And we need to realize that looking upon others without love and understanding is just as offensive to God as what we may be finding fault with them for. Well, that is my 2 cents worth.
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In His Precious Love, Victory444
Psalm 118:17 & 18 "I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord. The Lord hath chastened me sore: but He hath not given me over unto death."
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