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Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 4:41:40 PM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
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Hi,
Need some advice. I am fairly new to ministry. I pastor a smallish, traditional church. Recently I have felt that a few have been trying to hi-jack the services with a less traditional approach to worship etc. They don't seem to have any respect for the majority view, nor indeed the leadership. How should I handle it?
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TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 5:16:02 PM
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ta_mosquito
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What's your authority structure? Are these people in authority?
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 6:11:57 PM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
What's your authority structure? Are these people in authority?
Plurality of leaders = 1 teaching elder (me) and 6 deacons.. No they are recent incomers, but not members.
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TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 6:31:18 PM
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rcjames
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Could you please expand on the type or operation of the apparent "Hijacking", I mean what are folks doing or not doing that is concerning you so much?
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 6:36:02 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Hi,
Need some advice. I am fairly new to ministry. I pastor a smallish, traditional church. Recently I have felt that a few have been trying to hi-jack the services with a less traditional approach to worship etc. They don't seem to have any respect for the majority view, nor indeed the leadership. How should I handle it?
Can you explain what you mean when you say that you've 'felt that a few have been trying to hijack the services with a less traditional approach to worship'? Also what do you mean by their not seeming to 'have respect for the majority view, nor indeed the leadership'?
Lots of things can appear to be one thing, judgments can be made without ever really talking with the people in question and getting things out in the open. Your feelings or assumptions could be wrong. . .
I'd like more information if you can give it. LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 7:59:26 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10994
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
What's your authority structure? Are these people in authority?
Plurality of leaders = 1 teaching elder (me) and 6 deacons.. No they are recent incomers, but not members.
So the people who have some say in how the services are run are not the deacons, nor are they members, but are long time attendees?
Are they in charge of the services (songs, readings, whatever)? Or are they just acting differently in the pews during the service (raising hands, dancing a bit, whatever)?
How are they hi-jacking (or attempting to hi-jack) the service?
_____________________________
LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/27/2009 9:39:29 PM
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jhuperetes
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They are not members.
End of discussion. I have yet to hear a congregation where non-members, no matter how long they attend can dictate members' activity.
Your deacons should be should be chomping at the bits about this...
I could be totally off of course, so I wait for the answers to the many good Qs, before suggesting pepper spray.
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 3:58:17 AM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
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Sorry for being vague. They have been coming around the church less than a year, and are now bad mouthing my preaching, the worship style and saying that the church is dead. Also, they suddenly are behaving very flamboyant during worship, in a way that seems to want to influence others to their way of thinking. It seems to be all show!
< Message edited by TheTartanTammy -- 10/28/2009 4:04:43 AM >
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TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 6:29:17 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
and are now bad mouthing my preaching, the worship style and saying that the church is dead.
Have they said this directly to you?
quote:
Also, they suddenly are behaving very flamboyant during worship, in a way that seems to want to influence others to their way of thinking.
What do you mean by "flamboyant"?
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"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 8:03:48 AM
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seagullplayer
Posts: 332
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Change the flowers on the piano and don't ask them first.
That should run them off...
You really need to speak with your deacons and make sure everyone is on the same page about this before it comes to a head.
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There is only one solution, Jesus.
Seems a lot of people watch evangelist on TV and call it going to church.
My kids use to play Mario Cart and think they where driving…
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 10:21:46 AM
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mvic
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TheTartanTammy,
I can understand perhaps your tendency to be vague, but we need a little more details if people here can suggest ways to help you.
I take it your church is not part of a denomination: Church of Scotland, Methodist etc ... The reason I'm asking is to establish whether it has a hierarchy of priests, bishops and so on.
You say you're a teaching elder with 6 deacons. How are you all appointed? Is there a Parish Council, or Group Council or whatever running the affairs of the church? Can anyone come to your church and be appointed to this organising body or Council?
The role of the preacher is, amongst other things, to teach the Word of God. If these people are bad-mouthing you, whether directly to you or behind your back, you need to establish clearly what they are saying and who is saying it.
It is possible that what they are saying could be detrimental to your position in this, and other churches. Their comments could be slanderous or libellous; in which case you may need to take legal advice.
If they are challenging your authority you need to nip this in the bud by seeking the support of those in authority in that church, and by challenging back those obstructing your good work - even if it means telling them they are no longer welcome in your church.
Hope this helps a little. Although more details would clarify matters.
God bless.
< Message edited by mvic -- 10/28/2009 10:30:28 AM >
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 10:50:01 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
bad mouthing my preaching, the worship style and saying that the church is dead
I have learned NOT to believe anything 'I hear' and little of what 'I see'. KWIM? I don't know about Brits, but on this side of the pond, most people in the church are walking in the flesh so all they 'hear' is interpreted through that flesh. It's a bad, bad scenario but true. Corinth abounds!
Get to know these people. It doesn't sound like you've had any personal interaction with them. That's sad. If individuals have been coming to your church for most of a year, certainly you've had opportunity to get to know them. . . not?
Don't trust what others tell you. Humble yourself. Don't choose lies. Don't be defensive and prideful. Talk with them. Get to know from them their desires, what they are about.
Then you can walk in integrity in this situation. Remember each situation is God desiring to work in you, make you more like Him. 
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 12:58:45 PM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
and are now bad mouthing my preaching, the worship style and saying that the church is dead.
Have they said this directly to you?
quote:
Also, they suddenly are behaving very flamboyant during worship, in a way that seems to want to influence others to their way of thinking.
What do you mean by "flamboyant"?
No, not directly to me.
Flamboyant = they have suddenly changed their worship style, and it doesn't look too spiritual from where I am.
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TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 2:50:45 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
bad mouthing my preaching, the worship style and saying that the church is dead
I have learned NOT to believe anything 'I hear' and little of what 'I see'. KWIM? I don't know about Brits, but on this side of the pond, most people in the church are walking in the flesh so all they 'hear' is interpreted through that flesh. It's a bad, bad scenario but true. Corinth abounds!
Get to know these people. It doesn't sound like you've had any personal interaction with them. That's sad. If individuals have been coming to your church for most of a year, certainly you've had opportunity to get to know them. . . not?
Don't trust what others tell you. Humble yourself. Don't choose lies. Don't be defensive and prideful. Talk with them. Get to know from them their desires, what they are about.
Then you can walk in integrity in this situation. Remember each situation is God desiring to work in you, make you more like Him.
Not so, I know them well enough to believe what I hear!! But you are right it requires direct dialogue.
My warnings just come from having been judged and misunderstood by others, TT. So the Lord has taught me to not do to others what they do to me. KWIM?
Flesh abounds. I just don't want it abounding in me. I don't want it abounding in the leadership of the church.
Humility, condescending was what the Lord lived out to us. I want to always be following in the footsteps of Jesus, walking as He walks.
So pursue dialogue with these folks. Love them as Jesus loves them. Be willing to set aside your preconceived ideas (even judgments) and hear them, truly hear them. You may not agree. But they may have something to say that the Lord is longing for you to hear. He used Balaam's donkey and He just might be using some people (though fleshly?) to speak wonderful words to you as well.
I know you to be a good listener so am trusting the Lord to lead you and guide you into a time of godly fellowship with these individuals. Blessings! And my prayers, LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/28/2009 11:47:00 PM
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Peloton
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Nevertheless, the Pastor is the spiritual head of the church. There can only be one head, unless you like double headed monsters and confusion. Seems that if you are bothered about it, pray them out.
I was in a mountain retirement community church and I had retired pastors say that they could divide a church in days if they wanted (amazing, I know) and virtually take it over. We just prayed that God would "slow their roll" as it were, line up to the vision and leadership, or find them some place else to haunt. It worked! They slowed their roll, lined up, and became members of good standing.
The other thing, "not members." Maybe going to those causing confusion, inviting them to join the church, follow its vision and the direction the pastor is leading, and volunteer to be in the "helps" ministry (cleaning restroom, shoveling snow, gardening and other character building, but necessary ministries) will cause them to flee from making a commitment to actually join the body of Christ and move on to another church they can disrupt.
Make sure your by-laws are in order. You may intend the church to be operated one way, but if it isn't written down, anyone can come in and take it over. You must spell out what you believe in, the order of authority, what constitutes a member and membership qualifications, and a host of other issues. If not, you are wide open to attacks from without. In court, your By-Laws sit as a witness unto themselves, not what you wanted to say.
Join the local ministry association. You may find that the same crew has done the same elsewhere, got discouraged that someone actually exercised Godly authority over them and fled to other pastures. These things actually happen and they will take both your authority and church if you allow it to happen.
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 10:56:04 AM
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SuspenseWriter
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Like WHAT already? "Fleshy" to you may not be "fleshy" to me. For instance, many Baptists would consider the raising of hands in worship or lying prostrate on the floor before the Lord to be horrifying, while in a Spirit-filled church it's normal. We need concrete examples of what exactly has you so riled up. Okay?
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 10:57:07 AM
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stellaluna
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I was about to say the same thing. And how do you know they're being "showy" and not just filled with the spirit during worship?
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 10:58:07 AM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 814
Joined: 12/2/2008
From: North Britain!!!!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Like WHAT already? "Fleshy" to you may not be "fleshy" to me. For instance, many Baptists would consider the raising of hands in worship or lying prostrate on the floor before the Lord to be horrifying, while in a Spirit-filled church it's normal. We need concrete examples of what exactly has you so riled up. Okay?
Fleshy = doing it to be showy
By the way ours is a Spirit filled church where no-one feels the need to have a prostrate during the service!!
< Message edited by TheTartanTammy -- 10/29/2009 11:04:40 AM >
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TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 12:02:58 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Like WHAT already? "Fleshy" to you may not be "fleshy" to me. For instance, many Baptists would consider the raising of hands in worship or lying prostrate on the floor before the Lord to be horrifying, while in a Spirit-filled church it's normal. We need concrete examples of what exactly has you so riled up. Okay?
Fleshy = doing it to be showy
By the way ours is a Spirit filled church where no-one feels the need to have a prostrate during the service!!
Dear Lord, what does having a prostrate in a Chruch service mean in England?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 12:21:02 PM
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B-Swan
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From: Indiana
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I'm not getting a picture of what they're doing either. By "fleshy" are they taking their clothes off? Hugging each other? Touching other people? Are they jumping up and down and all around? Getting on their knees with their hands raised and eyes closed? Not trying to sound condescending or anything, just also trying to get an image of what they're doing like everyone else.
You also mentioned at the start about how it's a traditional church and I'm assuming very traditional worship along with that, and these people don't respect the majority view. A question I would ask (again not condescending, just the way I think) is what if the majority view is holding people back from being more spirit-filled??
It's sad how here in america every church thinks they're the most spirit-filled one and if someone comes in and wants to change something, it's gotta be bad intentions or not of God. However what if God uses situations like this and people like you're talking about to show us what we're missing and how we can be even more spirit-filled?
Of course all of this is pending what these people are actually doing and how they're actually acting. Some things are definitely not appropriate, but not everything that's different is inappropriate. When you talk with them I would also find out where they've come from, maybe they came from a church or a group that acted that way and that's all they know, and if it is inappropriate maybe nobody's ever told them any different.
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 12:30:24 PM
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SuspenseWriter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Fleshy = doing it to be showy
By the way ours is a Spirit filled church where no-one feels the need to have a prostrate during the service!!
So if someone in your church were to suddenly lay on the floor before the Lord in deep worship, would that offend you? Or if they were to raise their hands and begin softy weeping and praying in the Spirit, would that upset you? Just trying to establish the parameters here, because right now you can color me baffled.
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suspend your disbelief
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blog.htm
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RE: Caution! Hi-jacking in progress... - 10/29/2009 12:32:34 PM
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FunBetty
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So, let me see if I understand this correctly - you have some people in your congregation that is being "showy" (whatever that means). The only specific instance you said was that they were laying prostrate.
Forgive me for sounding a little harsh but I'm failing to see what the real problems is since you have ignored specific requests from other posters to be more specific with what you are finding at fault.
So I will generalize:
1. Are the actions being done unbiblical? Can you back it up with scripture? My pastor gave a sermon at our church a few months ago on the gift of speaking in tongues - what the Bible says about it specifically. It wasn't necessarily to address a problem, but he was doing as a teacher and leader of our congregation.
If you are a leader of a "Spirit filled church" (as you say), then can it be possible that these "fleshy" people are filled with the Holy Spirit and acting out of obedience to Him?
If these actions are unbiblical, then as their pastor and leader of the flock you need to deal with the issue directly. If their actions are not unbiblical, then as their pastor and leader of the flock you need to use wisdom and discernment. Could these actions possibly be biblical, but just out of your comfort zone? How well do you know these "fleshy" people? Have you spoken to them and tried to see how God is moving in their life?
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