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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 9:01:40 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
So, what are we to think of God's attitude toward a SECOND or THIRD offense. As I said, I am ready to conceded that anyone can fail once if the right strings are pulled. But, that once, for a believer, should be a wakeup call to a whole new reality in their life that leads to their NEVER failing in that area of their life again... if they FULLY understand God's fierce anger toward it.
A second offense clearly demonstrates that the adulterer repudiates the very concept of the sanctity of marriage. It's no longer a 'mistake' or a 'weakness'. That was OK for the first time. But, it doesn't wash the second time. They have had to turn their backs on God's Word, God's Will as revealed in the Scripture and God's Lordship over their life in order to step into an affair a second time. It's a serious step... not a trivial one.
Excellent post, TMeeks!
I don't know enough Greek to tell anyone where it is (any Greek scholars can help?) but the aorist tense in Koine Greek is one we don't have in English, and it's too bad because we lose some of God's teachings because of it. The tense means something started in the past, continues through the present and into the future.
It shows we were sanctified (made holy - separate from a sinful life), are being sanctified and will be sanctified. It's a process and a done deal at the same time. The arrow points towards God and life, not sin and death.
So look at a person's life and see which way their behavior shows the arrow is pointing. The first thing God says to separate from a so-called believer in 1 Cor. 5:11 is sexual sin. It's the top sin to show the person is headed the wrong way.
Look what God says to Abimelech who innocently had Abraham's wife Sarah in his harem in Gen. 20:3 ff:
But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.” But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this.”
And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.
Adultery is sinning against God personally.
God also differentiates from a one-time sin and a series of repeated sin (which way the arrow is pointed in life). It's also part of what the aorist tense shows us - a person who sinned, is sinning, and may continue sinning. A wake up call, indeed. To repeat a grievous sin that God takes personally and is a capital offense at judgement is to put oneself possibly in the way of habitual sinning, and has already passed the one time "Oops, I'll never do that again." The OP is in great danger with his relationship with God. The hedges around his life are down.
Short answer: adultery is sinning personally against God, and to repeat it calls into question a person's sanctification and thus salvation.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 9:10:18 AM
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keithyhuntington
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From: Tulsa, Okla.
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very good post indeed =)
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Jesus Christ please help me 'cause i'm lonely. Whats the use in living, if you can't make a good living?
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 1:15:12 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 473
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Put in to an example, this is what you are saying -
I know I speed on the highway. I also know that sometimes I have envious and jealous thoughts. I do know these are sins.
They happened more than 3 times.
I must be a heathen. And, since I know I have had thought of a woman lustfully, I must be stoned.
Now, I ask you to stand there and throw the first rock, if you are not a heathen according to your definition.
I would be very careful of drawing on laws selectively, such as stoning. I venture to say few follow all Old Testament laws. And, none with perfection.
Can any addict be Christians? (I am not saying the original poster is, just pulling the example of those who sin repeatedly despite knowing full well.)
Yes, I know you are not saying it explicitly that he is not a Christian.
I am not minimizing his actions. Quite the contrary - I am stressing that this is much more than just "well he is to die, and he is not Christian".
Again, we have zero details other than the original post.
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 3:25:05 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2220
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We have numerous "hedges" around our lives to keep us from sinning: pleasing God, the Holy Spirit leading us towards Jesus and convicting us of sin so we turn away from it, protecting our finances from ruin, having a good name in society, not wanting to ruin our families, etc. To commit adultery means every one of those hedges has failed.
This is the point: some of us sin, recognize the sin, confess and repent it as sin, and don't do it as a lifestyle. Some people repeat the sin as habitual lifestyle and their lives give lie to their confession of faith. Some people dip their toe in the pool and pull it out and leave the pool area, and some people jump in the water and stay there.
I'm saying that a person who hangs around the pool and has jumped in twice may be in danger of jumping in and staying there. God says for Christians to separate themselves from this kind of sin. The fellowship of Christians does not separate. God infers that a person in a lifestyle of sin doesn't belong to Him. The OP is in danger of joining this latter group.
We tell people this so they can see where they are, where the danger is, so they can say, "OMG, I'm in danger, I'm going to go back to where I belong and stay safe!"
If a person is about to fall off a cliff, you tell them they're on the edge of a cliff and could fall off. Would you recommend something different?
< Message edited by deermousie -- 11/1/2009 3:35:33 PM >
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 3:41:38 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 473
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deermousie, I do not disagree with you.
Maybe I am interpreting it differently, but I am not getting warnings from most of the responses.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
We have numerous "hedges" around our lives to keep us from sinning: pleasing God, the Holy Spirit leading us towards Jesus and convicting us of sin so we turn away from it, protecting our finances from ruin, having a good name in society, not wanting to ruin our families, etc. To commit adultery means every one of those hedges has failed.
This is the point: some of us sin, recognize the sin, confess and repent it as sin, and don't do it as a lifestyle. Some people repeat the sin as habitual lifestyle and their lives give lie to their confession of faith. Some people dip their toe in the pool and pull it out and leave the pool area, and some people jump in the water and stay there.
I'm saying that a person who hangs around the pool and has jumped in twice may be in danger of jumping in and staying there. God says for Christians to separate themselves from this kind of sin. The fellowship of Christians does not separate. God infers that a person in a lifestyle of sin doesn't belong to Him. The OP is in danger of joining this latter group.
We tell people this so they can see where they are, where the danger is, so they can say, "OMG, I'm in danger, I'm going to go back to where I belong and stay safe!"
If a person is about to fall off a cliff, you tell them they're on the edge of a cliff and could fall off. Would you recommend something different?
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 7:29:26 PM
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TMeeks
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This is NOT about stoning anybody. It's about a wife that appears to be totally dedicated to her marriage being callously used.
You have not been here very long. So, you don't realize how out of character my seeming harshness is to this particular poster. But, the others here can tell you that I am rarely harsh with people that find themselves in these circumstances. This one was quite different.
And, there is a reason WHY my answer was so different than what people might have expected from me. And, that was due to the fact that the OP very pointedly stated that he KNEW that his first actions had, "... caused her so much pain that I thought she would be psysically sick."
If that is true, then what kind of person IS this guy? And, then he says,"everything is great between us but I chave cheate again." What???? Everything is great? The first time you almost destroyed your wife and everything was great and you STILL cheated!!!???
But, here was the kicker... "I'm scared to tell my wife because I feel it will hurt her to the point of sickness." Doesn't that have a familiar ring to it??? Notice that it is not the CHEATING that is going to hurt her. But, the TELLING.
Now, think about that for a bit. Does God tell us that he hates adultary because it hurts if we TELL our spouse??? Or, does it hurt our spouse in and of the actions itself. See how he separated his wife's pain from the ACTION and placed it on THE TELLING????
And, he repeats the emphasis on THE TELLING in this gem...."I really beleive if she finds out, this can be the end of our marriage."
In this person's mind, the end of the marriage wasn't in his repeated adultary. It was in her finding out.
Finally, "Can anyone help me?" Yep. It's all about him. It's about how to solve the problem he created. How not to lose the marriage he obviously distained at least twice.
It wasn't "How can I be healed?". Nor, was it, "I feel so ashamed and I need to find a way to never have this happen again." It was "I'm scared" "Please Help me"
The selfishness and the narcissism was so palpable in that one little message that the cruelty of his callousness came across loud and clear.
Now, think of the wife. She was married for two years and found out that the husband she trusted had defiled their sacred union. He says it hit her hard. Very hard. To the point where he believed that she was going to be physically sick over it. But, she came back, put aside her hurt and rebuilt their relationship to the point where her husband could say, "everything is great between us." Think about what it took for this young woman for him to be able to say that.
So, you KNOW that this is what she is thinking too... because, she has obviously worked hard at forgiveness and restoration to make it so. But, in spite of her best efforts he goes off with someone else.
Knowing what I know about the brain and bonding, I know that he could not bond with another woman without affecting the bonding in his own brain for his wife. There is a REASON an affair is called "Cheating" for he has cheated his wife out of the love, the fidelity and a cherished place in his heart.
Had I seen any real remorse or unselfishness in his post, my answer would have been very different. But, apparently, he first needs a wake-up call as to his total self absorption and callous disregard for his wife's feelings.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jhuperetes
Put in to an example, this is what you are saying -
I know I speed on the highway. I also know that sometimes I have envious and jealous thoughts. I do know these are sins.
They happened more than 3 times.
I must be a heathen. And, since I know I have had thought of a woman lustfully, I must be stoned.
Now, I ask you to stand there and throw the first rock, if you are not a heathen according to your definition.
I would be very careful of drawing on laws selectively, such as stoning. I venture to say few follow all Old Testament laws. And, none with perfection.
Can any addict be Christians? (I am not saying the original poster is, just pulling the example of those who sin repeatedly despite knowing full well.)
Yes, I know you are not saying it explicitly that he is not a Christian.
I am not minimizing his actions. Quite the contrary - I am stressing that this is much more than just "well he is to die, and he is not Christian".
Again, we have zero details other than the original post.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/1/2009 7:40:02 PM >
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/1/2009 8:17:22 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 473
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TMeeks, I read the same post as you - but you have drawn much more conjectures out of it, then I ever could.
I bow out as this is going nowhere positive.
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 12:06:04 AM
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michele_erin
Posts: 104
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TMeeks -- I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. Couldn't have said it better myself. I believe you drew the RIGHT conclusions based upon what this person wrote, and this man needs a wake up call and a kick in the butt, not hand holding. Amen to what you've said!
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 12:40:00 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: michele_erin
TMeeks -- I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. Couldn't have said it better myself. I believe you drew the RIGHT conclusions based upon what this person wrote, and this man needs a wake up call and a kick in the butt, not hand holding. Amen to what you've said!
I also agree, and you have said it better than I could have.
The way you decribed this young woman and what she did after the first time makes me want to weep for her becuause she has been cruelly betrayed again. She may not have the strength to do it again.
I was cruelly betrayed also for a long time as it turned out,and I feel so much for her and what she has to go through.Sadly there is no other way though as she will find out eventually,and she does need to be told..
As you say the adultery has already broken the covenant, the telling doesnt break it, it just brings it into the light.
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 1:13:24 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 2220
Joined: 9/26/2007
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Excellent post, TMeeks! Far better than I could have said it. Your discernment rings true to me.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 2:04:23 AM
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michele_erin
Posts: 104
Joined: 5/8/2006
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quote:
herestoresmysoul: I also agree, and you have said it better than I could have.
The way you decribed this young woman and what she did after the first time makes me want to weep for her becuause she has been cruelly betrayed again. She may not have the strength to do it again.
I was cruelly betrayed also for a long time as it turned out,and I feel so much for her and what she has to go through.Sadly there is no other way though as she will find out eventually,and she does need to be told..
As you say the adultery has already broken the covenant, the telling doesnt break it, it just brings it into the light.
This is how I feel for the woman also -- and have been in that situation as well, so my heart breaks for her. I had a split moment one time about a year ago, when the thought hit me if my current husband did that to me and it was as if a knife hit my heart. My thoughts were "I don't know if I could ever go through that again." It is one of the worse betrayals someone can go through in a marriage. Both my current husband and I have both been there before, so we do everything possible to make sure that our marriage stays "safe" -- by putting precautions in place as best as we possibly can.
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 5:58:05 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: michele_erin
quote:
herestoresmysoul: I also agree, and you have said it better than I could have.
The way you decribed this young woman and what she did after the first time makes me want to weep for her becuause she has been cruelly betrayed again. She may not have the strength to do it again.
I was cruelly betrayed also for a long time as it turned out,and I feel so much for her and what she has to go through.Sadly there is no other way though as she will find out eventually,and she does need to be told..
As you say the adultery has already broken the covenant, the telling doesnt break it, it just brings it into the light.
This is how I feel for the woman also -- and have been in that situation as well, so my heart breaks for her. I had a split moment one time about a year ago, when the thought hit me if my current husband did that to me and it was as if a knife hit my heart. My thoughts were "I don't know if I could ever go through that again." It is one of the worse betrayals someone can go through in a marriage. Both my current husband and I have both been there before, so we do everything possible to make sure that our marriage stays "safe" -- by putting precautions in place as best as we possibly can.
Good for you michele. My husband had also been through this betrayal, and like you said I dont think I could deal with it if it happened to me again in this marriage. Praise God I have a very goldy husband with very high moral standards and strict boundaries. I am the same. I keep very strict boundaries wit the opposite sex, even though neither of us has even cheated ourselves.
God Bless
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 10:48:30 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1532
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jhuperetes
TMeeks, I read the same post as you - but you have drawn much more conjectures out of it, then I ever could.
It's NOT conjecture. I tend to believe that it's DISCERNMENT based on being in my 60s and seeing this story being played out again and again by narcissistic husbands and wives.
One young lady I know learned her husband was having an affair. As she was dealing with this, he told her he had to go take care of his lover because she was sick with the flu and needed him. Now, THAT is narcissism and cruelty to the max. Oh... and did I say that he DIDN'T want a divorce because that would mean his father would find out about the affair????
Narcissism. That is what to look for. If you find it, the counseling rules change.
quote:
I bow out as this is going nowhere positive.
Yes it is. A positive change in a self-centered life. It is a grave mistake to think that the only positive things in life are sweetness and gentleness. Sometime tough love is kinder than a misplaced compassion. Knowing which to choose is important.
There are TWO people involved in that OP and we must consider more than simply the one giving THEIR side of the story.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/2/2009 11:03:57 AM >
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 11:02:18 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1532
Joined: 1/27/2007
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These aren't textbook counseling sessions for those that are the victim of a betrayal. After a while, having seen it often enough and being sensitive to the masked pain of those who have experinced betrayal, you eventually 'get it' and understand just how deep the pain goes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: michele_erin
TMeeks -- I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. Couldn't have said it better myself. I believe you drew the RIGHT conclusions based upon what this person wrote, and this man needs a wake up call and a kick in the butt, not hand holding. Amen to what you've said!
I also agree, and you have said it better than I could have.
The way you decribed this young woman and what she did after the first time makes me want to weep for her becuause she has been cruelly betrayed again. She may not have the strength to do it again.
I was cruelly betrayed also for a long time as it turned out,and I feel so much for her and what she has to go through.Sadly there is no other way though as she will find out eventually,and she does need to be told..
As you say the adultery has already broken the covenant, the telling doesnt break it, it just brings it into the light.
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 1:42:44 PM
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tkc300
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T meeks you are a wise woman and I agree!!! Thing is GODs love isnt always kind and He demonstrates in scripture that we do not want to feel his wrath. I also believe that sometimes being harsh is a form of love and I believe the OP needs this.
Coming from someone who has been betrayed taken her ex back and betrayed again, it can leave your heart numb. I also agree with deermouse in when she stated The first offense sometimes can be taken as weakness, or string pulled, yet knowing sir how you have hurt her beyond belief is what makes me wonder about your motives. Did you not recall her pain when you were persueing this other person the second time.
You should tell her, you owe her the truth and eventually she will find out and and if not you will still have to answer. You say you have repented yet I feel you have not if you havent came clean to your wife. Not trying to be mean but again the scripture isnt all honey and sugar either.
< Message edited by tkc300 -- 11/2/2009 1:49:32 PM >
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 2:07:34 PM
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michele_erin
Posts: 104
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Amen to TMeeks and tkc300!
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RE: SHOULD I TELL MY WIFE? - 11/2/2009 3:59:46 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tkc300
T meeks you are a wise woman and I agree!!! Thing is GODs love isnt always kind and He demonstrates in scripture that we do not want to feel his wrath. I also believe that sometimes being harsh is a form of love and I believe the OP needs this.
Coming from someone who has been betrayed taken her ex back and betrayed again, it can leave your heart numb. I also agree with deermouse in when she stated The first offense sometimes can be taken as weakness, or string pulled, yet knowing sir how you have hurt her beyond belief is what makes me wonder about your motives. Did you not recall her pain when you were persueing this other person the second time.
You should tell her, you owe her the truth and eventually she will find out and and if not you will still have to answer. You say you have repented yet I feel you have not if you havent came clean to your wife. Not trying to be mean but again the scripture isnt all honey and sugar either.
There is no way of knowing, given my user name; but, my first name is Tom. However, rest assured that I am NEVER insulted to be taken for a woman on the forums. In fact, I have always taken it as a compliment that the heart of Christ is working through me. 
If Christ had communicated his message to the woman at the well via an online forum, I think that she, too, may have felt she was being ministered to by a woman's heart. The BODY of Jesus was male. But, it was He who created Adam and then parsed out male and female from Adam's body. We need both male and female to be complete. Christ was the COMPLETE Adam in one body. So, thank you for the compliment.
Marriage isn't meant to be a place of pain. It is meant to be a place of blessing and love. For a variety of reasons it doesn't always work out that way. Yet, I have never seen in any Scripture, anywhere, that allows for disappointment, or any issues in a marriage, to justify violating the marriage covenant and bringing in even more pain.
If men want to have a mid-life crisis they should buy a BMW Z4. It's cheaper than a divorce and less painful! 
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/2/2009 4:08:17 PM >
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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