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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 6:53:58 AM
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zoebob
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I just want to say that there are some churches out there who don't put up with this stuff and do support women who need to escape this situation and if there is a man in their congregation who is being abusive they will hold them accountable.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 10:31:59 AM
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Sideways
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The article doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I've been at CW long enough to see the overwhelmingly disproportionate emphasis on female submission, female servility, quite honestly, in sex, finances, home decisions, everything. If women wear enough baggy clothes, keeps her mouths shut and supports her husband, no matter what he does, then she is right by God.
Not. 
(And yes, I know not all churches are like this. My pastor would never stand for such a thing, but he preaches male responsibility.)
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 12:12:12 PM
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bolt.
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I would not advise any kind of 'putting up with' violence. It's not right. It's not Biblical, and I will take up my fighting words with anyone who believes it is (other than the victim).
But if a woman was determined to stay, I would give her advice about the wisest way to live within her unwise choice.
If children were involved I'd call child welfare, give my information, and let them know that I'm willing to be considered for kinship care.
I would also be involved, without hesitation, with the restoration of a relationship that had formerly involved abuse that is now repented of in real terms, with accountability in place.
_____________________________
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 3:30:49 PM
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BelleWeather
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
The article doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I've been at CW long enough to see the overwhelmingly disproportionate emphasis on female submission, female servility, quite honestly, in sex, finances, home decisions, everything. If women wear enough baggy clothes, keeps her mouths shut and supports her husband, no matter what he does, then she is right by God.
Not.
(And yes, I know not all churches are like this. My pastor would never stand for such a thing, but he preaches male responsibility.)
The article doesn't surprise me either.
America has an entire religious industry of books, political hacks, traveling road shows, heretics, charlatans, seminars, women's groups, bible studies, magazines, pod casts, clothing lines, hairstyles, web sites, DVD sales, flashcards, calendars created for the express submission and control of women.
The escalating level of misogyny supported or tolerated in religious circles is disgusting.
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 3:57:37 PM
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Sideways
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Indeed.
And remember, where men hold total power in a church, they are far more likely to emphasis the duty of a woman and the power of being male. Some men will act as servant-leaders, and some will become corrupted by unlimited power, that's just human nature.
I believe in male pastors, but I do think that women should have other positions of power and influence in a church. I've seen churches where women weren't even allowed to be greeters and hand out bulletins, and at those churches they were little more then silent doormats.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 8:11:27 PM
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dnp200450
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quote:
I think it may be more of an American thing. I know personally that within the Assembly of God and Pentecostal churches I've attended, you stay in your marriage and listen to your husband. He is the spiritual head of the household, bottom line. What is not taught or what I don't hear a lot of it the other part of the scripture where Christ tells us that a man is to love his wife like Christ loved the church. Christ DIED for us, so a man is supposed to love his wife enough to be willing to die for her. That is quite a command, IMO.
Yes, the teaching in to a large part denominational and geographic. I did not hear about it much when I was in Europe. Here in the U.S. I heard it taught more in the South and Midwest. I very rarely heard it mentioned here in the Northeast. When we did have cases of domestic violence up here the pastors in our church would tell the women to call the police and have her and the family escorted/driven to safe place by the cops. If I am not mistaken, in this State; clergy, teachers, therapist, etc. are required to report domestic abuse or the suspicion of domestic abuse to the Police.
Here is what really disturbed me most in original article:
“George sites a survey in which nearly 6,000 pastors were asked how they would counsel women who came to them for help with domestic violence. Twenty-six percent would counsel them the same way Marleen's pastor did: to continue to "submit" to her husband, no matter what. Twenty-five percent told wives the abuse was their own fault—for failing to submit in the first place. Astonishingly, 50 percent said women should be willing to "tolerate some level of violence" because it is better than divorce.”
First, with thinking like that, a lot of these pastors should simple resign. I could not live with all of that blood on my hands if someone followed my advice and died from the result of it. What do I say on judgment day?!
Secondly, this response from 6000 pastors is very alarming. We are not talking a sample of only 100 ministers. 6000 is a very, very large number.
Thirdly, did it ever occur to some of these pastors that perpetrators of spousal abuse are extremely prone to abuse children in many ways?!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 9:04:31 PM
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hnt
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I have a Christian Author friend in the UK that has written a pretty successful book on domestic violence and the church. I think she would disagree when you say it must be an American thing.
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 9:15:54 PM
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dnp200450
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
I have a Christian Author friend in the UK that has written a pretty successful book on domestic violence and the church. I think she would disagree when you say it must be an American thing.
No one said it was an American thing. What basically was said was the female-must-submit-to-her-husband-philosophy is taught more vigorously in certain parts of the United States than in the U.K. and greater Europe. As far as the U.S. vs. U.K. rate of domestic abuse is concerned, I don't know. Even if I had some numbers I would have to make sure the U.S. and U.K. definitions and sampling methodologies were the same. Perhaps your Author friend would have some very good information on all of this.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 9:52:50 PM
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hnt
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quote:
I have never actually heard of any Christian leader tell a women to stay with an abusive husband. I have never heard any teaching to that affect either.I am from the UK. Could that be why? Certainly doesn't seem to be taught here.
Is what I was referring to.
It wouldn't surprise if most people were stunned by what the article mentioned, and the philosophy you speak of. I mean where is the common sense in those statements? lol NO WHERE! I mean you would think most people wouldn't dare go there. It doesn't matter where you live.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/29/2009 10:31:34 PM
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dnp200450
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
quote:
I have never actually heard of any Christian leader tell a women to stay with an abusive husband. I have never heard any teaching to that affect either.I am from the UK. Could that be why? Certainly doesn't seem to be taught here.
Is what I was referring to.
It wouldn't surprise if most people were stunned by what the article mentioned, and the philosophy you speak of. I mean where is the common sense in those statements? lol NO WHERE! I mean you would think most people wouldn't dare go there. It doesn't matter where you live.
To be perfectly honest we you HNT, I would be extremely suspicious of any pastor I found was given such advice to a battered woman. Maybe he hits his wife too! Why else would he want to protect a known offender and place a woman/family in such danger.
I first heard of this nonsense a while ago when I started to move around the country (U.S.). I was brought up in Pentecostal and Evangelical churches that one would say are very traditional and conservative. Yet I was quite shocked and surprised by this twisted perversion of scripture. My parents had been aware of it but they said they did not know any preacher in the Diocese that thought that way since the 1950's.
This was because something went horribly wrong to a family after a woman took the advice of a preacher and returned with her family to the abusive addict husband's house. Apparently he found out she had talked to the pastor and became extremely angry at the fact that she was "saying bad things about him". He killed his wife and two children (1 and 3) with a butcher knife. The pastor was fired and from that point on domestic abuse was taken more seriously. Too bad a family had to die for change to happen. Based on the results of that survey, it looks like many more will die.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 1:58:57 AM
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Anon101
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
quote:
I have never actually heard of any Christian leader tell a women to stay with an abusive husband. I have never heard any teaching to that affect either.I am from the UK. Could that be why? Certainly doesn't seem to be taught here.
Is what I was referring to.
It wouldn't surprise if most people were stunned by what the article mentioned, and the philosophy you speak of. I mean where is the common sense in those statements? lol NO WHERE! I mean you would think most people wouldn't dare go there. It doesn't matter where you live.
The teaching the OP talked about is prevalent in my area of the world. I grew up in the Pentecostal movement. If I was to go to my pastor and use term like "common sense" he'd say that I was being humanistic using my out mind to understand God's word. He'd also say I lacked a circumcised mind and too many Christians use terms like "common sense" when making decisions. I'm not agreeing that a person should stay in a marriage where there is physical abuse, I just know that because Christ did not address abuse in the NT and that a lot of pastors only will tell you to leave ONLY if your spouse has cheated. I was always taught that you are to have faith that God will take care of you and to not lean on your own understanding. I've been there (pastoral discussions) and here at the scriptures that are given to many people in domestic types of situations.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5)
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)
Again, I do not believe a person should stay with a man or woman that physically abuses them, but I'm also considered liberal by my church because I don't think a person should stay in an abusive marriage whether it be physical, verbal, mental or all of the above. I just wanted to say the the teaching read in the OP thread is not out of the ordinary, depending on what denomination you are a part of.
< Message edited by Lorilynn777 -- 10/30/2009 2:10:26 AM >
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 9:26:17 AM
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hnt
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I understand.
quote:
If I was to go to my pastor and use term like "common sense" he'd say that I was being humanistic using my out mind to understand God's word. He'd also say I lacked a circumcised mind and too many Christians use terms like "common sense" when making decisions.
I do realize they say that as well. They are making excuses for themselves. There are alot of things in the bible that we must use faith, etc for, and then others? We know we need to ask for God's help, but we are also asked for action. The bible speaks clearly about helping those oppressed parties, and hopefully to bring those in sin to repentance. If you use the spiritual pixie dust the pastor handed you? To me he is being lazy, and using the bible to back him up.
There is alot of scripture that may not be labeled 'abuse', but speak about the behavior or traits of abusive behavior. I don't know WHY people can't put the two together, but the bible clearly does speak of sinful actions. It clearly speaks of how we are to speak against it, and take action to help those that are victimized by it as much as possible. We are also asked to help those in sin to come to repentance. James 3 speaks of the power and the damage of the tongue. The bible speaks about those that use manipulative behavior, deceit, anger, contempt, etc. The way people act its like they think the bible gives no instruction as to how to handle it when you see it. I mean it is IN THERE! 
Prayer and relying or asking God to help is indeed in the bible, but so is action towards believers. There are times in which we need to allow things to hit rock bottom, because of the push of the holy spirit is asking you to. Then there are times in which you look at a situation, and ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" Would he tell people that using the term common sense is to 'worldly' or would he agree to the call of action?
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 1:48:31 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 398
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lorilynn777
The teaching the OP talked about is prevalent in my area of the world. I grew up in the Pentecostal movement. If I was to go to my pastor and use term like "common sense" he'd say that I was being humanistic using my out mind to understand God's word. He'd also say I lacked a circumcised mind and too many Christians use terms like "common sense" when making decisions. I'm not agreeing that a person should stay in a marriage where there is physical abuse, I just know that because Christ did not address abuse in the NT and that a lot of pastors only will tell you to leave ONLY if your spouse has cheated. I was always taught that you are to have faith that God will take care of you and to not lean on your own understanding. I've been there (pastoral discussions) and here at the scriptures that are given to many people in domestic types of situations.
I grew up in the Pentecostal movement too but had never heard of such teaching until I moved around. “Common sense” and a soul are two of the major things that separates humans from primates. Without common sense we would all be in trouble deep trouble. More Christians need to use common sense when making decisions, not less. Common sense is not juxtaposed to spirituality. Lorilynn777, I hope you ignore your pastors claims of you being humanistic and “lacking a circumcised mind”. Christ talked a great deal about how we all should treat others.
quote:
Again, I do not believe a person should stay with a man or woman that physically abuses them, but I'm also considered liberal by my church because I don't think a person should stay in an abusive marriage whether it be physical, verbal, mental or all of the above. I just wanted to say the the teaching read in the OP thread is not out of the ordinary, depending on what denomination you are a part of.
No one is supposed to take any type of abuse. That is not a liberal vs. conservative opinion. I can’t see how any Christian, especially a pastor, can think the Trinity approves of allowing abusive behavior to happen. If I were a Bishop I would excommunicate any pastor under me who told a battered woman to “take it”.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 2:00:06 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
How willing are you to put up with violence in the home? Why?
I'm not at all willing to put up with any type of violence; whether in the home or elsewhere.
Why? I grew up with violence, from different people. When I was 16, I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't allow it from anyone ever again.
In fact, a couple years later, as a newlywed during my first marriage, my husband became physically violent with me. I was on crutches (not related to the violence) and he intentionally and angrily shoved me down so that I fell over backwards and into the bathtub. All because I was brushing my teeth and he wanted me out of the way so that he could use the sink.
That very afternoon, I left the apartment and the marriage.
I kept my promise to myself.
_____________________________
❖ Let's Discuss the Advent Season ❖
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 2:12:27 PM
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Anon101
Posts: 188
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quote:
No one is supposed to take any type of abuse. That is not a liberal vs. conservative opinion. I can’t see how any Christian, especially a pastor, can think the Trinity approves of allowing abusive behavior to happen. If I were a Bishop I would excommunicate any pastor under me who told a battered woman to “take it”.
That is why I am prayerfully looking for a new church. I know too many pastors that never went to seminary or had any formal teaching, they were called. I do believe in being called into the ministry, but that doesn't mean you get up on the pulpit the next day. Addressing issues and teaching scripture without the correct instruction or discipleship can cause more harm than good. Consequently, my old church is losing members left and right.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 3:09:53 PM
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dnp200450
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quote:
That is why I am prayerfully looking for a new church. I know too many pastors that never went to seminary or had any formal teaching, they were called. I do believe in being called into the ministry, but that doesn't mean you get up on the pulpit the next day. Addressing issues and teaching scripture without the correct instruction or discipleship can cause more harm than good. Consequently, my old church is losing members left and right.
I was just talking about this on another thread. Here is the link information:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4601526
The poster wrote:
"As far as getting counseling from members of the church….lets think about that for a moment. Very, very, very few have ever, if any, at all had any formal education on counseling…yes the majority may have taken a weekend class (if your lucky) even pastors have had minimal training. I am not suggesting all that do counsel are incompetent but when have you seen a pastor with a PHD in counseling? Heck do any even have some kind of teaching background? Yet isn’t that what they do every weekend?
It is rare I am sure of it. I am not suggesting that pastors are incompetent but lets look at the facts. Churches are having breakups, member splits and members leave and we call that a healthy Christian community. No we are actually very sick. Here is my take….your having a heart attack…you go to the hospital (the building, like a church) some guy/gal comes up to you and it’s plain as Jane they look like they don’t have experience…so you ask a few questions…what’s you training, reply ..Oh I gave mouth to mouth and saved 3 life’s in my life.. where did you learn you skill….. reply, I’ve taken 3 weekend courses on CPR and I have read lots of books! Now do you feel better they are working on your heart…heck no you would scream for someone with qualifications wouldn't you! We don’t let accountants do this…we don’t let teachers to do this….dentists and so on yet we somehow think a person in the church is qualified enough….?
I have experienced seen too many break downs, devoice, hard feelings and lies in the church…that there is no way I would go back to that building and be worked on….All I have known is every weekend people go to church preach and act as if they have a handle on Christian Values. But when push comes to shove they crumble. I have seen it time and time again.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 3:44:24 PM
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Strength4Life
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Absolutely not! I'd use stronger language than that if Crosswalk allowed me to. I watched my sister date and marry an abusive manipulative horrible man. She is still reaping the consequences of that relationship and the man has been dead over two years. The "church" they attended approved of his behavior. In my dealings with him there were many times I just wanted to tick him off so he'd take a swing at me so I could press charges and get her away from him for even a short time. She stayed because she didn't want her marriage to be a failure. His funeral was a huge test of us loving her and his family even though we pretty much wanted to jump up and down in joy that the man was dead and couldn't touch her any more. Financially he ruined her. She is still cleaning up the mess he made of her finances. Everything from stealing her identity for credit cards to loans with 25% interest to a house he let be foreclosed upon.
I would tell anyone who is an abusive relationship of any sort to run far away from the abuser. I'd willing put them up at my house and help them get on their feet. Any pastor who tries that line with me would be immediately reported to his supervisors within his denomination and get a lecture from me. If my sister's husband hadn't died when he did we are positive she wouldn't be here any more and he'd be in jail for her murder. That or I'd be in jail for killing him.
S4L
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 3:54:54 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I think another facet of this is the women of many churches. Some of them have a lot to answer for as well. It is sad to say but there are a lot of women out there touting the submission is putting up with abuse party line. In many ways, I think these women have a greater influence on the abused woman than a pastor does. A woman comes to them for love, compassion, and mercy and told that if she were just a better/stronger Christian/more submissive wife/ better housekeep/ whatever, then he wouldn't abuse her. These are the same women who say there is no such thing as marital rape because a woman doesn't have the right to say no to her husband no matter what.
It is really sad that there are secular groups/ non Christian people who are showing Christ's downtrodden abused children more compassion, love, and mercy than the church is. We really need to think about that. Does it make any sense for these pastors to sit on their self righteous self created islands while nonbelievers are doing the work of the church? Anyone who is okay with that should hang their heads in shame.
Karen
PS, in case it isn't obvious, I have some really strong feelings about this.
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 4:31:53 PM
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hnt
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quote:
To be perfectly honest we you HNT, I would be extremely suspicious of any pastor I found was given such advice to a battered woman. Maybe he hits his wife too! Why else would he want to protect a known offender and place a woman/family in such danger.
I think we are in total agreement there!
John Piper got people's in an uproar recently when he was speaking on this issue. I think he attempts to get it, but clearly I have to wonder. He was attempting to let women know HOW to approach your husband if he is calling you to sin - in his example? Multi partners in bed. , and then went on to speak about verbal abuse.
One of his quotes:
quote:
She’s going to say, however, something like, “Honey, I want so much to follow you as my leader. God calls me to do that, and I would love to do that. It would be sweet to me if I could enjoy your leadership. But if you ask me to do this, require this of me, then I can’t go there.”
Now that’s one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 5:11:26 PM
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Grace71
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
I think another facet of this is the women of many churches. Some of them have a lot to answer for as well. It is sad to say but there are a lot of women out there touting the submission is putting up with abuse party line. In many ways, I think these women have a greater influence on the abused woman than a pastor does. A woman comes to them for love, compassion, and mercy and told that if she were just a better/stronger Christian/more submissive wife/ better housekeep/ whatever, then he wouldn't abuse her. These are the same women who say there is no such thing as marital rape because a woman doesn't have the right to say no to her husband no matter what.
It is really sad that there are secular groups/ non Christian people who are showing Christ's downtrodden abused children more compassion, love, and mercy than the church is. We really need to think about that. Does it make any sense for these pastors to sit on their self righteous self created islands while nonbelievers are doing the work of the church? Anyone who is okay with that should hang their heads in shame.
Karen
PS, in case it isn't obvious, I have some really strong feelings about this.
I want to comment on this part because I have seen/ been a part of this type of counsel myself. Honestly, I think some stay in the violence, get prideful and are full of false humility and martyr themselves by saying "Oh look how I suffer for Christ."
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/30/2009 7:35:50 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
I would not advise any kind of 'putting up with' violence. It's not right. It's not Biblical...
This has got to be a big part of why a pastor suggests a woman put up with violence: he doesn't know that the Bible condemns violence.
That's because so many churches aren't teaching the Bible. The pastors don't know the Bible.
If no one is studying a Bible, you can get all kinds of nonsense as theology going - no one knows it's wrong because they don't know what's right.
And if a pastor sweeps violence under the rug, he doesn't have to do anything about it. In my church, the elders would be on a violent husband quick, and they wouldn't be afraid to call the police, either.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Violence in the Home - 10/31/2009 12:15:39 PM
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dnp200450
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quote:
I want to comment on this part because I have seen/ been a part of this type of counsel myself. Honestly, I think some stay in the violence, get prideful and are full of false humility and martyr themselves by saying "Oh look how I suffer for Christ."
That could very well happen, especially if she was counseled to think that we all have our cross to bear. She may bear it till literally death does it's part!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 11/3/2009 10:01:30 AM
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cemsmom
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I emphatically believe that no amount of violence of any type should be tolerated! I was raised to never ever ever get a divorce no matter what. Because of this, I stayed in an incredibly abusive marriage for over 13 years--verbally, mentally, financially, and even sexually. Even though I knew that his treatment of me was wrong, for a long time, I didn't label it "abuse" because he didn't actually hit me. I am not ready to disclose my whole story on here, but I will say that my kids and I are finally free from his abuse. He is serving 16-20 years in prison for his acts that turned criminal, and we have a permanent restraining order against him. I firmly believe that if we had stayed with him, I would be dead by now. He hinted something of that effect to his mother, who was creeped out by him and told me about it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
I grew up with violence, from different people. When I was 16, I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't allow it from anyone ever again.
WhiteRoseBlessings, if you don't mind, I'm going to adopt this promise for myself. Thank you for your inspiration!
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RE: Violence in the Home - 11/3/2009 4:59:19 PM
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shadowspring
Posts: 620
Joined: 5/27/2006
Status: offline
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To answer the original post: how much abuse would I put up with? More than I ever thought I would.
I would've said I had a zero tolerance policy if you had asked me fifteen, ten, five years ago, even last year. But my husband was never physically violent until this past year. When it happened I was so shocked. He was horrified and repentant, right at first. But it has been a roller-coaster of peace-abuse-repentance-reconciliation since then. He has not physically attacked me since the one time but I have left the house a few times since then. But the emotional abuse is no less hateful. 
He is getting help from a church ministry but not our church! I would never tell our pastor. He would blame me for sure, as my husband is a quiet, harmless-looking fellow who plays golf with the pastor on occasion. Plus he has the pedigree, preacher's kid, missionary kid.
I, on the other hand, am but a lowly sinner saved by grace. I have been called out from the pulpit for imaginary sins by this pastor. I would never, ever trust him to believe me. No way.
Most surprising to me, however, is how everyone I have shared the situation with (a few exceptions of very close friends) says the same thing: "Not your husband! He's so nice." A few have asked if I provoked this in anyway, and suggested I may be at fault. And one friend (divorced and had two abortions and assisted young girls to obtain abortions!) keeps implying that unless the violence is ongoing and long-term, I have no right to leave. I was really surprised at how self-righteous and legalistic people are about other people's marriages. 
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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I believe pride is the root of this horrible comment. Tolerating violence to have the ability to state "well, at least I'm not divorced" makes me want to cry.
