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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 12:36:10 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teacher1982
If a person wears red lipstick, that's not a problem. If her face looks like a clown, it is. It's silly to argue like it's totally one way or the other. It's in the middle using common sense.
Is looking like a clown a sin?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 12:43:50 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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Okay, I was talking with my husband about the clown face sin. I think what that stems from is a cultural norm from the past. There was a time, I would say pre-60's, that if a woman wore too much makeup she was considered a woman of easy virtue. Today, I don't think the same holds true. When a woman wears too much makeup it is more thought she just has no idea how to apply it. But I don't think people look at her and say, "Well obviously clown face there is a prostitute."
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Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 12:53:58 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Then you have the problem that many women in church including young girls are not yet believers who have committed their lives to Christ. They are simply not called to the same standard as we are. But they are exactly where they need to be, hearing the gospel. I am not going to call them out, embarrass them, and drive them away.
Again, I say you don't know what "everybody" was thinking about her. Just because she bothered you doesn't mean the majority was offend. And that is the rub, who's standard of modesty do we go by? Yours? Please don't say rational Christians because if you have noticed rational Christians can barely agree on anything. This issue become legalistic without hardly any effort. I again call for grace rather than finger pointing. I do believe that as Christians we are called to judge with discernment but I think if anyone is ready to cast the proverbial stones at a woman you deem inappropriately dressed better be prepared to face on into their own sins. God has a funny way of helping us work through those we get a little worked up and self righteous.
All of the leaders agreed that she and one or two others were dressed innapropraiately they just chose to do nothing. Having a quiet private word with a person is not 'driving them away' or 'calling them out'. She was going to be baptised and she was told what not to wear and guess what, she wore what she was told not to wear, with all the people watching her. (again my husband had to close his eyes.).
It seems strange to me that people excuse what she and other do when it makes so many other peoples time more difficult and uncomfortable. What about the parents with the teenage boys who are struggling with it. Dont they matter?What about all the men who she may well be causing to stumble? What about the other women who also feel uncomfortable with it?
Are we to let anyone get away with anything for fear of 'offending' them? The Bible doesnt do this, it says it like it is.if a women is offended by livingly being told that she needs to stop showing her cleavage. legs, back and whatever else, then that says a lot about her I think.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 1:04:41 PM
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Focusing
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Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
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Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you.
Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 1:05:39 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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HRMS, I am not sure who you are talking about. My quote was referring back to teacher1982's wonderful, loving Christian woman who wears skirts that teacher 1982 deems too short.
quote:
Are we to let anyone get away with anything for fear of 'offending' them?
Truthfully, I don't really see it has my place to keep anyone from getting away with anything. No one gets away with anything. God knows and will deal with it. There are some things that church leadership should address. If the Holy Spirit calls me to confront lovingly someone living in sin, then I will do it. But otherwise, I don't see it as my place to run around and point out everyone's sin. As I said before, I better make sure my our sin is resolved before I start worrying about everyone else's.
As far as the men, I agree we should not cause them to stumble. A nonbeliever isn't hold to the same standard. A baby believe may not get that yet. And I think a lot of young girls are more innocent about that than we believe. I don't think alot of teens really understand the havoc they are wreaking. Should we come along side of them lovingly and gently correct them? If the Holy Spirit urges you to, then definately. But truthfully, alot of this condemnation seems to be missing the love, humility, compassion, and mercy that is necessary. I, personally, would meditate on those long and hard before I confronted anyone.
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Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 1:13:56 PM
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BelleWeather
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jaimestarcross
You ever wonder what became of the mature godly women who once mentored to the younger girls, teens, ladies and so forth about being modest and dressing appropriately etc.?
They were told not to offend any one and be thankful that they(the younger ladies wearing immodest clothing) were attending church.
The "mature godly women" in my church have no problem guiding and counseling the next generation. It is their pleasure to teach and instruct.
For some people, no amount of propriety will ever be enough when it comes to women's apparel.
When we look for the worst in others, we usually can find it.
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 1:34:29 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
When we look for the worst in others, we usually can find it.
Now that is just the plain spoken truth.
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Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 1:58:10 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Some do and some dont I have met both.However some women definatetly do dress up for church and yes, some of them dress to get attention. You can see it a mile off. Most women can sense this.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:03:44 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BelleWeather
quote:
ORIGINAL: jaimestarcross
You ever wonder what became of the mature godly women who once mentored to the younger girls, teens, ladies and so forth about being modest and dressing appropriately etc.?
They were told not to offend any one and be thankful that they(the younger ladies wearing immodest clothing) were attending church.
The "mature godly women" in my church have no problem guiding and counseling the next generation. It is their pleasure to teach and instruct.
For some people, no amount of propriety will ever be enough when it comes to women's apparel.
When we look for the worst in others, we usually can find it.
yes that is how is should be with the older women teaching the younger.
Isnt that a bit hard though if some of the older women arent much better? Also isnt that hard if the girls parents are also there sititng next to them?if they think it is OK then should anyone else be allowed to say anything?(Unless they are leaders?)
I am friends with the wife of any elder at our present church and she says that if anyone was dressing badly then someone whould have a quiet word with them about it.However most of the women dress modestly so that is a relief.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:05:30 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
quote:
When we look for the worst in others, we usually can find it.
Now that is just the plain spoken truth.
You dont need to go looking, it is staring you in the face (literally sometimes).Well either Paul knew what he was talking about or he didnt. I think he did.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:10:35 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I don't get the Paul reference. Could you please elaborate?
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Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:11:55 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Do any of the women who believe that standards of Modesty should ONLY be considered by the INDIVIDUAL woman involved realize that Paul addressed his comments about standards of Modesty to the Timothy (the Pastor of the church at Ephesus) and expected Timothy to convey the need for modesty to the women who were part of his congregation.
The idea that modesty should be defined by each individual woman for themselves and should not be addressed by the leadership of the congregation to which they belong is an idea that is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. It is one of many very modern western ideas that is in direct conflict to the standards given to us in Scripture.
As others have pointed out, there is a lot of reasons to consider the cultural standards of today and to realize that the standards given by Paul were based upon the culture in which he lived. Forcing the first century standards regarding braids and hair coverings, etc... is not a wise choice, but that is far less dangerous than advocating the INDIVIDUAL woman's rights to dress as she chooses and ignoring the reality that Christians are supposed to function in relationship with one another together as the body of Christ. How a woman's dress affects the rest of the body of Christ is a very important consideration.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:15:40 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Some do and some dont I have met both.However some women definatetly do dress up for church and yes, some of them dress to get attention. You can see it a mile off. Most women can sense this.
OF course there are some women that want to get inappropriate attention from men, but some women just like to dress up and display. Think about it, women getting together with just women...you find that many women get decked out for that too.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:26:15 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 5169
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Do any of the women who believe that standards of Modesty should ONLY be considered by the INDIVIDUAL woman involved realize that Paul addressed his comments about standards of Modesty to the Timothy (the Pastor of the church at Ephesus) and expected Timothy to convey the need for modesty to the women who were part of his congregation.
The idea that modesty should be defined by each individual woman for themselves and should not be addressed by the leadership of the congregation to which they belong is an idea that is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. It is one of many very modern western ideas that is in direct conflict to the standards given to us in Scripture.
As others have pointed out, there is a lot of reasons to consider the cultural standards of today and to realize that the standards given by Paul were based upon the culture in which he lived. Forcing the first century standards regarding braids and hair coverings, etc... is not a wise choice, but that is far less dangerous than advocating the INDIVIDUAL woman's rights to dress as she chooses and ignoring the reality that Christians are supposed to function in relationship with one another together as the body of Christ. How a woman's dress affects the rest of the body of Christ is a very important consideration.
I'm sorry, but how someone dresses is dangerous? Come on, Benelchi, let's not get melodramatic here.
And just exactly how does everyone come to a decision on what is or is not appropriate? As I said in my first post in this thread, some women at my church find my attire completely acceptable while others don't.
Yes, we can leave it to the church leadership ... and btw, none of them have any issues with the way I dress, be it a long dress/skirt or capris and a T-shirt ... but that doesn't prevent some of the women in the church from murmuring about what I'm wearing.
There is no pleasing all people at all times in any society.
_____________________________
Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you.
Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 2:55:01 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Do any of the women who believe that standards of Modesty should ONLY be considered by the INDIVIDUAL woman involved realize that Paul addressed his comments about standards of Modesty to the Timothy (the Pastor of the church at Ephesus) and expected Timothy to convey the need for modesty to the women who were part of his congregation.
The idea that modesty should be defined by each individual woman for themselves and should not be addressed by the leadership of the congregation to which they belong is an idea that is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. It is one of many very modern western ideas that is in direct conflict to the standards given to us in Scripture.
As others have pointed out, there is a lot of reasons to consider the cultural standards of today and to realize that the standards given by Paul were based upon the culture in which he lived. Forcing the first century standards regarding braids and hair coverings, etc... is not a wise choice, but that is far less dangerous than advocating the INDIVIDUAL woman's rights to dress as she chooses and ignoring the reality that Christians are supposed to function in relationship with one another together as the body of Christ. How a woman's dress affects the rest of the body of Christ is a very important consideration.
I'm sorry, but how someone dresses is dangerous? Come on, Benelchi, let's not get melodramatic here.
What I said was dangerous is the over emphasis in most western churches to day on the "rights" of the individual at the expense of the body of Christ. This moden emphasis of advocating an INDIVIDUAL's "right" not to be "judged" on ANY sinful behavior encompasses far more than just the issues around modern dress. And the over emphasis on individuals "rights" to do as they choose is a concept not found in Scripture.
quote:
And just exactly how does everyone come to a decision on what is or is not appropriate? As I said in my first post in this thread, some women at my church find my attire completely acceptable while others don't.
Yes, we can leave it to the church leadership ... and btw, none of them have any issues with the way I dress, be it a long dress/skirt or capris and a T-shirt ... but that doesn't prevent some of the women in the church from murmuring about what I'm wearing.
There is no pleasing all people at all times in any society.
It should be left to the leadership of the church just like most other similar issues should be left to the leadership of the church. If the leadership of the church fails, either by being too legalistic or by failing to adress issues of sin, they will be held responsible for that failure. Because I don't know you, I have not and cannot make any judgements about the appropriateness of your dress, but the leadership of you church can and if your dress ever crosses the line, the should. As part of a body of believers we should realize that our individual choices affects the whole body and reflects the values of the whole body to those to the community of unbelievers who are watching us.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/2/2009 3:04:05 PM >
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 3:08:25 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Last night, I came home fuming from the grocery store and told my husband, "The woman who checked me out turned and showed me 2 - 3 inches of ugly crack, and I was disgusted! On the way out the door, I told the manager that I didn't appreciate it one bit and asked her to tell her employees to cover up. Honey, I haven't seen that much crack since . . . since . . . the last time I was in a church!"
And there I stood, mouth hanging open at what I found myself saying, but it was true. That was a number of years ago, and at the time, I was astounded, after attending a church by invitation, that I had not seen ladies of the evening in my town showing as much skin as I saw in that church that Sunday morning. There is a Scripture which says that when a nation rejects G-d, there will be nakedness. I had thought that was want of the poverty-type. I am no longer convinced of that.
But I always go off re modesty. It really bothers me that people seem to have no clue.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 3:58:59 PM
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shilo45318
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God looks at the inside, man looks at the outside.
I work with the youth (JR High - High School) in our church. I know that there are a couple of girls in our youth group that have a ways to go in the whole modisty thing. I also know how far they have came in so many areas in their lives that a whole lot more important than how they dress.
Trust me teens will not take advise from someone that they do not know and trust. I disagree with the statement that they are their with their parents, what can I do. Take the time to get to know them, love them, spend time with them (even if only at church) except them as they are, and in time God will be able to use you to effect change in their lives.
But be ready, if you are willing to really put yourself out there, and love these young women, you may get your heart broken when you realize that in most cases there is so much more going on in their lives than just how they dress. In fact you may find yourself defending them to other mature christains in your church. Sometime we mature christains need to start at the top of the pile of filth that Satan can pile into a persons life, and it takes a little time to get to the stuff that shows on the outside.
_____________________________
TGIF - Thank God I'm Forgiven
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 4:04:27 PM
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shilo45318
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Sorry for the back to back posts, but this really hit a nerve.
When I am out on the streets around our church handing out fliers, and inviting people to some event that we have going on at the church to give people a fun reason to step inside the church, I will almost always run into some young lady who will say to me that they have nothing to wear to church. I have a standard answer, "God is just fine with what you have on right now, and so am I."
We don't turn people away because of how much, or how little they are wearing when they hit the front door. Do we have a disipleship program that will eventually lead to an outward change? Yes, but in some cases it may take years before the inward change of the heart needed first makes itself seen on the outside.
_____________________________
TGIF - Thank God I'm Forgiven
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 4:23:04 PM
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Focusing
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Thank you Shilo!
Sometimes it takes working with people who may not have anything else and whose least concern is what they are wearing to realize that what another is wearing is not the primary function of gathering together with others in church.
We had a young lady start coming to our church, and she eventually joined the choir. Just as we were heading onto the platform to sing, she was pulled aside and told that she was dressed inappropriately and that she would be placed in the back so that nobody could see her. She was wearing nice slacks and a nice blouse. She was so hurt that she quit the choir. In fact, she wasn't able to get past that hurt and stopped coming to church altogether. My heart broke for her, and I still think about it and pray about it. As a new believer, she was more on fire for the Lord than I was at that time ... and she was squelched and chased away based on what she was wearing. It still makes me angry!
Jesus came here to seek and to save ... not to nitpick about what other people were wearing. He is to be our example.
_____________________________
Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you.
Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 5:20:01 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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Great posts, Shilo!
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 8:00:09 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Okay. This is what I believed when I was in the church: when children, young people, and adults started coming to church, they deserved a break for not knowing how to dress. They were welcomed as they were. I don't remember anyone being turned away.
When they became believers, however, they deserved to be taught. Where I went, I am not sure if they were taught at all, because I never saw a change toward modesty in their clothing. Rather, they were told that they could not wear pants and jewelery while participating. Now, that was just silly. Rather, they should have been taught to dress modestly, because re the young ladies, they came wearing dresses that were too short and necklines that showed way more than ought to be seen.
I did have a pastor's wife come to me and tell me to tell my daughter-in-law-to-be that she needed to stop wearing earrings. When I refused, she had a little cow. Ridiculous.
To me, modesty means:
(1) Dress appropriately for your position in the group.
(2) Don't dress to represent wealth that is not representative of the group.
(3) Don't dress in clothing that is overly form-fitting.
(4) Cover up those areas that could be sexually enticing to persons of either gender, and in the USA, that means cover your breasts, all cleavages, and legs as appropriate for the group.
(5) Cover yourself in such a way that you will remain modest in all activities.
. . .(a) If you are going to cross your legs, be sure that when you do, you are appropriately covered.
. . .(b) If you are going to bend over, be sure you will be appropriately covered in the top-front and back at the waist and up your legs.
. . .(c) If you are going to be on the floor with children (etc.) dress so that you will not be exposed.
. . .(d) if you are going to be going up stairs in front of someone, or be above people (on a ladder, scaffold, balcony, etc.) be sure you are dressed so that you do not expose yourself.
Sounds like a lot of stuff, but the easy way to do this is just choose clothing that isn't too tight, is long enough, has a belt if needed, and a neckline that just covers you. It's easy. If you aren't sure, get a friend to help you, then follow that pattern of clothing yourself.
The Bible says that the older women are to teach the younger how to present themselves. I am an older woman. I am writing that it is not appropriate to show your breasts or cleavage of any kind. It is not appropriate to show any part of your bottom or too much leg. When you sit, if you can't keep your legs together at all times, wear slacks.
Modesty is important. Immodesty will not only cheapen you, and it is a purposeful attempt to entice. It victimizes. It abuses. You have no right to do this to others.
Further, when you are with your boyfriend or girlfriend -- in other words, you are not married -- when you go into kissing in such a way that you cause arousal, you are sinning if you continue. Protect yourself by just not repeating that.
And when you are in that situation, and you start doing that petting thing, you are sinning. Period.
When you are in that situation and you claim that it's love, no it is not, and you lie. You are using that other person. You are sinning against that other person. You are endangering that other person's soul. You are using that other person. You are abusing that other person. Love does not endanger another, does not use another, does not abuse another.
G-d help us! When we become believers, there should be evidence that we are, and that evidence should show continuous growth. There should be a change.
If we truly have become believers, we will seek out ways to follow our Messiah, not seek ways to resist or to be obstinate or pigheaded! That is rebellion and stubbornness, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft while stubbornness is as the sin of idolatry. We WILL ALL stand before G-d some day. What excuse will you present then?
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 8:21:35 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
G-d help us! When we become believers, there should be evidence that we are, and that evidence should show continuous growth. There should be a change.
I completely agree.
Only thing is, what I think you (general you) should change first, or next, or next after that probably isn't what God would change in you first. Because I don't know your heart and God does. If you've got a raging temper and no one knows it but Him and your kids, having someone rag on you about your clothes really isn't profitable and gets in the way of the Holy Spirit changing something far more important. If I've got a critical spirit I'm thinking that God cares far more about changing that than the length of my hem.
I'm not saying modesty isn't important. I'm not saying that what you, Abiyah, have said isn't true. I am saying that we can make being a believer and seeking after God so difficult for others with our attitudes and what will be our excuse for that when we stand before God?
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 8:57:51 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Absolutely, CoeurdeLeon! When the new people (Greeks) were coming to Messiah among the Jews, there were those who questioned if they were really even believers and I am sure there were "softer-thinkers" among them who were willing to give them a break. What was decided? Teach them the most important stuff first, then let them grow as they continue coming to the synagogue and Temple for further teaching. They will "get it" as they are taught. My point being that they must be taught.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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Yes, I know you are exaggerating - at least I hope so! - but my point is, let's not get carried away. 
