|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/2/2009 11:56:54 PM
|
|
|
notsuccinct
Posts: 58
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: my desk
Status: offline
|
quote:
But be ready, if you are willing to really put yourself out there, and love these young women, you may get your heart broken when you realize that in most cases there is so much more going on in their lives than just how they dress. In fact you may find yourself defending them to other mature christains in your church. Sometime we mature christains need to start at the top of the pile of filth that Satan can pile into a persons life, and it takes a little time to get to the stuff that shows on the outside.
as someone who mentored high school girls, let me say that this is completely true.
most of the girls that I mentored who came to church were drinking, using drugs, having sex (frequently outside of a relationship of any kind), struggling with school, and trying to live with parents who ignore them (many of whom are divorced). if they weren't actually involved with alcohol, drugs and sex, they were struggling with them; when roughly 99 percent of the people you know do something it seems pretty normal. telling a girl who had come to me about her struggle with drinking that she needed to put on a longer skirt for church would not only be insensitive, it would be stupid.
it is different for stronger Christians who know that they're called to a holy life. but unless you know someone personally and are in a position to speak to them in love and hold them accountable about things such as these, you have no business passing judgment. a meeting with the pastor (or someone who sits in the pew behind you) is not the setting for correction of something like immodesty (which is somewhat subjective in itself). a close community of believers should be what points out the trouble areas that we fail to see in ourselves. if you don't have that, you're probably not ready to receive that kind of correction anyway.
_____________________________
"Beware of making a fetish of consistency to your convictions instead of being devoted to God." -- Oswald Chambers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 12:17:43 AM
|
|
|
Grace71
Posts: 127
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: online
|
There is a strip club across the street from my church. We often pray for hem, and they know they are welcome at our church. I know most of those ladies dress immodestly even when not working. If one of them came into our church one day, we'd be praising God more than worrying about what she had on.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 12:48:57 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
I don't get the Paul reference. Could you please elaborate?
Paul tells women not to dress to draw attenton to themslevs and that we need to act with humility at all times.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 12:57:07 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Do any of the women who believe that standards of Modesty should ONLY be considered by the INDIVIDUAL woman involved realize that Paul addressed his comments about standards of Modesty to the Timothy (the Pastor of the church at Ephesus) and expected Timothy to convey the need for modesty to the women who were part of his congregation.
The idea that modesty should be defined by each individual woman for themselves and should not be addressed by the leadership of the congregation to which they belong is an idea that is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. It is one of many very modern western ideas that is in direct conflict to the standards given to us in Scripture.
As others have pointed out, there is a lot of reasons to consider the cultural standards of today and to realize that the standards given by Paul were based upon the culture in which he lived. Forcing the first century standards regarding braids and hair coverings, etc... is not a wise choice, but that is far less dangerous than advocating the INDIVIDUAL woman's rights to dress as she chooses and ignoring the reality that Christians are supposed to function in relationship with one another together as the body of Christ. How a woman's dress affects the rest of the body of Christ is a very important consideration.
yes benelchi I totally agree. The leaders do need to teach on this but I have never actually heard a single teahing on it even in churches where it was clearly needed.I think that is sad and I think the leaders are failing their responsibility to do so. The trouble is that these days we are far too concerned with not offending the individual even if it for the good of the church as a whole. We are afraid to gently confront anyone about anything it seems to me, and it is often seen as a 'right' to dress however we like despite what The Bible says..
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:00:54 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Some do and some dont I have met both.However some women definatetly do dress up for church and yes, some of them dress to get attention. You can see it a mile off. Most women can sense this.
OF course there are some women that want to get inappropriate attention from men, but some women just like to dress up and display. Think about it, women getting together with just women...you find that many women get decked out for that too.
many women will dress up with other women to impress them also, and it that actually right either?Why do they need to impress other women? I have some good women friends and none of us do that.
The words 'dress up and display' are surely not being modest are they? Why the need to 'display'.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:06:11 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Some do and some dont I have met both.However some women definatetly do dress up for church and yes, some of them dress to get attention. You can see it a mile off. Most women can sense this.
A mile off is quite a ways! I have yet to see anyone wearing something that can be seen by the naked eye from that far away.  Yes, I know you are exaggerating - at least I hope so! - but my point is, let's not get carried away.
Perhaps more need to learn how to focus their minds on God and not on how others are presenting themselves. By spending so much time focusing on what others are wearing, they are allowing others to come before God. And if one is allowing others to distract them from worshiping God, who's fault is that? Self control needs to be exercised, and not by pointing a finger and blaming it on others, but by setting an example on how to look away.
Phil 4:8 ... think on these things ... what can be more lovely than focusing our hearts, minds and eyes on God
As I sad before you really dont have to look for it. It is there right in front of you for all to see. (or at least it was in my last church)Ok if you close your eyes all the time then you wont see it but that does seem rather sad that anyne should need to do that just to avoid seeing women showing far more than they should be.
In the UK the phrase "you can see it a mile off" may mean somehtng different from what you take it as. It means thta is is claer and obvious what is going on and it doesnt literally mean 'a mile off'
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:12:33 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Do those who have such issues with what other women are wearing honestly believe that these women are getting dressed for church and thinking to themselves "I am going to wear this to intentionally make men stumble?" or "I am going to wear this just to rile up other women?"
Do any of the women who believe that standards of Modesty should ONLY be considered by the INDIVIDUAL woman involved realize that Paul addressed his comments about standards of Modesty to the Timothy (the Pastor of the church at Ephesus) and expected Timothy to convey the need for modesty to the women who were part of his congregation.
The idea that modesty should be defined by each individual woman for themselves and should not be addressed by the leadership of the congregation to which they belong is an idea that is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. It is one of many very modern western ideas that is in direct conflict to the standards given to us in Scripture.
As others have pointed out, there is a lot of reasons to consider the cultural standards of today and to realize that the standards given by Paul were based upon the culture in which he lived. Forcing the first century standards regarding braids and hair coverings, etc... is not a wise choice, but that is far less dangerous than advocating the INDIVIDUAL woman's rights to dress as she chooses and ignoring the reality that Christians are supposed to function in relationship with one another together as the body of Christ. How a woman's dress affects the rest of the body of Christ is a very important consideration.
I'm sorry, but how someone dresses is dangerous? Come on, Benelchi, let's not get melodramatic here.
And just exactly how does everyone come to a decision on what is or is not appropriate? As I said in my first post in this thread, some women at my church find my attire completely acceptable while others don't.
Yes, we can leave it to the church leadership ... and btw, none of them have any issues with the way I dress, be it a long dress/skirt or capris and a T-shirt ... but that doesn't prevent some of the women in the church from murmuring about what I'm wearing.
There is no pleasing all people at all times in any society.
I dont see anything wrong with capris and a t-shirt, why would that be immodest?. It isnt showing anything that shouldnt be shown.
I am talking about clothes that are so see throgh that you can see the colour, shape and even the pattern of their underwear . I am talking about low cut tops that leave nothing to the imagination and skirts and dressses that are up to the thighs.I am talking about a girl who was baptised in a very small bikini with just a very short very see through white top that went even more see through when it was wet as was expected.
Surely the line does need to be drawn somewhere
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:23:27 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
There is a strip club across the street from my church. We often pray for hem, and they know they are welcome at our church. I know most of those ladies dress immodestly even when not working. If one of them came into our church one day, we'd be praising God more than worrying about what she had on.
That is a whle new question. I dont think anyone here is talking about those who are enquiring or brand new Christians.,We are talking about Christians, many of whom have been for many years.Some of whom are in positions of responsibility in the church. A new person just coming into the church for the first time is another thing altogether. How will anyone learn though (if Christians are dressing immodestly), what they need to do if they do start coming long term?..
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:29:11 AM
|
|
|
dnp200450
Posts: 397
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
|
I said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
As for the Brother's, well, she really is not at all responsible if they become sexual excited. It is their choice. She is not making them stare at her. If they do in fact stare at her and get "turned on" in church; there are much deeper issues going on then her clothing. A diabetic knows better than eating the chocolate cookies at the church picnic. They can't blame the baker can they! 
You replied:
quote:
I think that is very naive . Men are visual beings and if a girl is dressed VERY immodestly and is standing right in front of them where are they supposed to look?
Yes men are visual beings but no more or no less than females. That is a myth. Women spend a great deal of time and money on visuals. Plastic surgery, hairstyles, push up bras, nails, expensive cloths, high-heal shoes, makeup, body waxing, etc. are all to change the visual presentation. Women use visuals to judge the social-economic, cultural, ethnic affiliations of other women and yes even religious standings. Jewish and Islamic dress codes come to mind. Many will judge a man by what cloths he wears. Women are indeed very visual.
If a woman with revealing cloths is standing in front of me, who says I have to stare at her body parts? Likewise I would not stare at an attractive married sister in the church who was more modestly dress. If I was at a church picnic at a State beach do you think I should stare at a woman in a bikini who was near my group? I was brought up in the church and from an early age we knew not to gawk at people, any people.
quote:
It is especially hard for the young men whose hormones are racing..
Raging hormones is never an excuse for inappropriate behavior. Years ago if a woman was raped the defense attorney could point out that the young man could not help it because she wore revealing cloths. We are all more than the sum of our hormones. Are ability to control ourselves is what separates us from the apes.
quote:
My husband in our last church was always having to close his eyes, and he is strict and wont allow himself to
look at things like that but he shouldnt have to keep closing his eyes.
Some weeks in the warmer weather there were loads of women with low cut tops . What are men to do, walk around with blindfolds?You really cant aviod it sometimes.I got really fed up with it and I am a women.
Why does your husband have to close his eyes? Why can’t he just note that her clothing is inappropriate for church and continue to focus on the service? It should be a breeze for a Christian.
Okay I have been in more countries than I can count. Many allow topless or nude swimming and sunbathing. If you look carefully you will notice few if any men are staring at the women. Remember most men on the beach are probably non-believers and the majority of them may be young. That being the case; how come the non-believers can use the beach and behave like gentlemen? Many times their wives and families are their with them. Sometimes they are not. Regardless, I personally have not observed a lot of "heads on swivels". Maybe they are just more mature about these things.
None of us need blindfolds either. Now I know what everyone is going to ask. “DNP200450, what are you doing on such a beaches?” Answer; the same thing as the rest of the people. Let me get the next question out of the way. “DNP200450 were you nude?” Answer; no I personally like to wear trunks. My point is that I did not feel I had to wear blindfolds or not enjoy the beach like everyone else. These beaches were not special “nude” beaches. They were normal public beaches in highly industrialized countries. We are talking Australia, Germany and Spain to name a few.
quote:
To blame the men for getting turned on is ignoring what The Bible says about how we are to dress.
You seem to be excusing the lady for what she is doing (as she wants the attention)and putting all of the emphasis on the men.
Biblically speaking, the men are to blame for being turned on. They are responsible for their own eyes, feelings and thoughts. If they are offended by what she wears they should look away. If they are becoming sexually attracted to her, they should look away.
I would like to make a correction; I never said I excuse the woman for dressing inappropriately in church. I basically said the men are responsible for their own feelings and behavior. Just as she is for hers, you are for yours and I am for mine. I am not an animal you know.
quote:
SHE needs to do what is right and then the men wont have to wonder where to put their eyes when she is talking to them or standing right in front of them.Of course she is dressing so that they WILL look at her and notice her and therein lies the problem.A constant battle.
I agree, she needs to do what is right. By the same token I am sure the men know where to put their eyes when she is talking to or standing right in front of them. If Jesus was in human form and was in the room and he was looking straight at the men do you think they could control where they were looking? Ohhh, I can guarantee they could. Well guess what, Jesus is in the room observing where everyone is looking and what everyone is thinking.
Let me make it more secular. If a man was told every time he looked at the woman’s body he was going to get hit by a fully charged police TASER, do you really think he could not control where he is looking? If he made was bold, he might look once for about 2 seconds. That would be it, I don’t care how raging his hormones were. All desire/temptation and lust would stop, COLD.
I noticed something interesting you posted on another thread titled “CHECKING WOMEN OUT” that was related to this subject herestoresmysoul. ou opinion seems somewhat different in that post vs. what you wrote on the current thread. Here it is:
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
One of the things that I love so much about my husband is that he doesn't do this. He wont stare at women, especially if they are dressed immodestly and would never dream of saying ANYTHING of that nature to any woman (unless it was me.lol)
Of course a few women like this sort of attention, but that still dosnt make it right to give them what they want.
Most women do not want a boyfriend or husband who cant stop looking at other women, and if went up to them and told them how pretty they were (or whatever it may be) he had better watch out.So maybe learn to stop doing it now while you have time to learn. You REALLY CAN stop doing this, you are not helpless.
Why is it that a few days later you seem to imply that men can’t help it? Please explain.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:59:50 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
dnp I never said that men cant help looking I said that if a women is standing right in front of them dressed with revealing clothes, it makes it extreemly hard to aviod seeing her.As I have said several times, my husband will close his eyes to aviod doing this but isnt that rather sad that as he is such a godly man he has to do that in church?.
I am pointing out that women dresing this way are making it hard for men to aviod seeing them when they are told not to make men stumble.
I think too far much of My Christian male friends to do this.It is totally selfish and thoughtless. Also certain parts of my body are for my husband eyes only and not for other men to see.
Tha man in the post you mentioned was deliberately staring at many women and going up to them and making comments about their appearance which is totally different from a man at church who is really wanting to stay pure and wanting to stay away from cleavages and legs and see through clothes, but finds them all around..
A man cannot help but notice a women dressed in revealing clothes, but he can stop staring. Sad though that he may have to close his eyes or leave that church to be able to do that.
I find this whole "well its the mens fault, we should be able to wear what we like and they shoudn't be looking"" VERY disturbing actually, and VERY selfish.
. If we are clearly disobeying God but dressing in such a way that we are making our brothers stumble then we are responsible. If we dress modestly and they still stare then that is THEIR problem.
We are supposed to do all we can to help men to see us as sisters and not in a sexual way.We are to dress so that mens attention is drawn to our faces and not to our bodies.We have a big responsibility in this and if we dont take it seriously then we will be held responsible for what affect it has.It is a cop out to say that the men dont have to look when some women do it just for that very effect, to GET men to look.
All I can say is that the most godly women I have known have dressed modestly.I thnk that says something.
Its sad that the world standards have come into the church,and its even more sad that many defend it.
A wise man said (I think it was Derek Prince) that the church should go into the world, but the world shouldnt be in the church.
.
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 11/3/2009 6:28:40 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 2:02:26 AM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3173
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
Yes men are visual beings but no more or no less than females. That is a myth.
Amein! That is a myth created to lay the blame on women because the men saying this are out of control. Have we not learned anything from the Genesis story, where the Chavah blamed the snake, and Adam blamed both Chavah and G-d?
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 6:19:36 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
Yes men are visual beings but no more or no less than females. That is a myth.
Amein! That is a myth created to lay the blame on women because the men saying this are out of control. Have we not learned anything from the Genesis story, where the Chavah blamed the snake, and Adam blamed both Chavah and G-d?
What????? I cant agree with that at all. Men definately are much more visually driven than women. That is why many many more men than women look at porn. That is why when some years ago people started trying to bring out a porn mag for women with naked men, it flopped badly as generally women are not turned on by seeing naked men but by different things.
I cant actually believe that a person can even think this.Read any book about men recovering from porn use or sexual problems, or about marriage or about the differences between men and women (written by both men and women) and they all say the same. Men are turned on by what they see and women are turned on by how they are treated and spoken to and loved.
Its a well known fact and definnetly is NOT used by men to justify anything. Sheeesh.
I must know some godly men as I have never heard any man use this an an excuse for staring at women.Yes they admit that it is a temptation but they try to live pure and godly lives. I see this every day in the way my husband acts and how hard it is for men these days with women all around dressed so badly and adverts and sex used to sell anything and everything.Sad that it is in church as well.
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 11/3/2009 6:50:35 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 6:35:33 AM
|
|
|
SurpassingPeace
Posts: 815
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
|
Covaan_Meshuga, I always appreciate you posts so much. You have a godly, loving heart. I agree with your definition of modestly. I agree that it needs to be taught to our women AND men. All of our teachings should be with love and compassion.
_____________________________
Karen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 6:56:49 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
dnp In answer to your question.
my husband closes his eyes as he is very godly and had very high morals.He doesnt want to see women dressed like that. It wasnt just the service it was the coffee time and the fellowship time and other times in the church life.In our last church you had to be constantly looking away to aviod seeing women dressed like that. During the service he closed his eyes so that he could concentrate on the service and on God,and to aviod the women in front whose trousers were so see through that you could see the colour, pattern, and shape of her underwear.(which happened more than once)..
Many many men would just look and think nothing of it but he isnt like that. He closes his eyes if something comes on the tV that isnt appropriate, or in a film or a tv programme. He says that they are not his to look at. I know you dont seem to understand why a man may do that but I love him for being so godly.
He looks away if a women dressed immodestly walks by him. He never stares at women.He treats them and me with total respect. I love him for it and highly respect him, and in my experience a man like that is a rare commodity.
I am a blessed women indeed.
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 11/3/2009 7:03:20 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 7:00:39 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Covaan_Meshuga, I always appreciate you posts so much. You have a godly, loving heart. I agree with your definition of modestly. I agree that it needs to be taught to our women AND men. All of our teachings should be with love and compassion.
I agree Covaam_Meshuga your defination of modesty is just what mine would be.Many may say they are too strict, but they are those that I stick to and seem very sensible.
Amen
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 11/3/2009 7:51:09 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 8:11:08 AM
|
|
|
CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4192
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Absolutely, CoeurdeLeon! When the new people (Greeks) were coming to Messiah among the Jews, there were those who questioned if they were really even believers and I am sure there were "softer-thinkers" among them who were willing to give them a break. What was decided? Teach them the most important stuff first, then let them grow as they continue coming to the synagogue and Temple for further teaching. They will "get it" as they are taught. My point being that they must be taught.
Abiyah, you and I would no doubt be in agreement on this. But the questions remain - what is to be taught and who should teach it?
In this thread alone we've seen gossip about another church member to strangers, a situation (Focusing's) where having everything covered isn't considered enough, the spiritual judgment on not only people who don't dress to a certain standard but also those that would defend them against such judgment and judgment about make-up and hair in addition to clothing. Would we give these spirits carte blanche to level their attitudes and tongues on other believers at will?
THIS ^ is what those of us disagreeing are disagreeing with. The use of the Bible to club people over the head with rules and opinions that have NOTHING to do with real modesty and NOTHING to do with the attitude in which we are to correct one another. We disagree that someone's clothing should be the subject of gossip after church and/or on message boards. We disagree that what someone wears tells us everything we need to know about the state of their heart. We disagree that everyone can have a different opinion -and voice it- about what another sister is wearing. And we heartily disagree that what goes on in a man's mind is to be blamed on us.
No one in this thread is arguing, as has been said, for immodesty. Neither is anyone arguing, as accused, for the "right" to wear and do whatever we want. That is absolutely NOT what we are saying.
The list that you posted is absolutely simple common sense. Unfortunately common sense isn't. And that goes both ways. Some people are clueless about how to dress. But others are clueless (and yet the most vocal) about how much coverage is modest, how much make-up is permissible and what color hair isn't of the devil.
Shilo's and notsuccinct's posts really touched me. I would HATE for one of those with a bitter and critical spirit to get hold of one of those girls and I will speak out against giving those people free-rein when it comes to rebuking whatever doesn't meet their standards.
On a slightly different note, I submit that if a pastor or leadership is told about someone's dress and they do nothing that is not automatically a failure on their part. It can very easily be indication that the one with the problem with another's clothes IS the one with the problem.
< Message edited by CoeurdeLeon -- 11/3/2009 8:19:26 AM >
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 8:32:30 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
So if anyone comes on here with a problem and mentions a particular person be it a friend, wife, husband mum dad, pastor or anyone else they are gossiping? That means that most the people on this forum have been gossips at one time or another.
This is a discussion forums, We are allowed to discuss and state out opinions and experiences are we not?
We are discussing the topic of immodesty. We are discussing our experiences in churches that we go to or may have been to. We are referring to women that we may have known who dress immodestly. People who are in other countries that 99% of people on this forum dont live in, and about whom absoutely no one else has a clue who that person or those people are and never will.
You make many sweeoping statements that simply arent true about people who you know nothng at all about.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 8:33:31 AM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
Christian women vs. Seeking women?
This topic of this thread is about the standards of modesty for Christian women, not those women who do not profess faith in Christ. One of the things I have noticed quite often is that Christian women will very often present, as a defense against having standards for modesty for Christian women in the church, the idea that it will turn away non-Christian women, but I believe the reality is quite the opposite; I believe it is that lack of modesty that often drives non-Christian women from the church. Most Christians, who advocate standards of modesty, recognize that only women who have committed themselves to Christ should be held to these standards. A non-Christian woman who comes in to the church should not be confronted on her choice of clothing, but be only loved and cherished regardless of how she is dressed! However, this non-Christian woman should be able to see a difference between her own standards of living and the standards by which the women who profess faith in Christ uphold. Like the men in the church, this difference should be reflected in their conduct in every area of life (including their choice of cloths). Those who are seeking faith in God are looking for a difference in the lives of those who profess faith in Christ and often they are far more judgmental about what they perceive to be moral failures of those who profess faith in Christ then even the most unloving, most judgmental Christian and while they do not want Christians to hold them to Christian standards in any area of life, they really do expect Christians to hold themselves to a higher standard.
Modesty vs. Style?
Another argument that I hear far too often from Christian women is that one cannot dress modestly and still dress “in style”, and while I recognize (I have daughters) that choosing to dress modestly and stylish can be a challenge, I do know that it can be done. There are Christian ministries whose whole purpose is to help young women learn how to dress stylish and still uphold standards of modesty. There are several Contemporary Christian bands composed of young women (like Barlow Girl) that hold themselves to high standards of modesty and sing and teach on this topic, a yet manage to dress in a way that reflects a contemporary style of dress. Their choice of clothing reflects modesty, but it does not reflect “religiosity”. Combining style and modesty can be done, and it should be done by women professing faith in Christ.
Lust is ONLY the man’s fault?
To some extent this is true; the choice to choose lust is a choice made by the one who is lusting. And it is true that some men will lust no matter how a woman is dressed. However, this is a hollow argument when used as an excuse by Christian women who choose to entice men, by their choice of dress, to sin; a woman cannot cause a man to sin, but their is no doubt that her actions can contribute to a man's fall; anyone remember Sampson and Delilah, David and Bathsheba, etc...? While a Christian man should always be able to stand firm in righteousness regardless of the temptations set before him in any area of life (including areas related to sexual temptation), the reality is that we all do fall short in every area of life. When we fail, we CANNOT blame anyone other than ourselves for that sin and ultimately we should recognize, as David did, that it is against God and God alone that we have sinned. However, Christian women need to recognize that they too are in sin when they choose to dress in a way that entices the men in their presence to lust after them. They are in sin because they have chosen to ignore the standards to which God has called them and they are in sin because they are tempting the men in their presence to choose sin. It is a hollow argument to say that men are not more affected by this temptation then women because the world around us SCREAMS to use that they are. A look at any magazine stand, sampling of advertisements, etc… will quickly reveal how much more often a woman’s body is used to SELL us good then is a man’s body. A look at art throughout history will reveal how much more often a woman’s body is the subject than is a man’s, a look at the pornography industry will reveal how much more often a woman’s body is used to entice than is a man’s. This is true even in those "liberated" countries that have topless and nude beaches referred to in another post. To present the idea that this temptation is equal for both men and women is to present a lie. While I will not buy the lie that a man cannot avoid failing into sin when they are tempted, I will also not buy the lie that a woman’s body is not a huge temptation to men; these ideas are both LIES!
Church cloths?
Often I hear the argument about dress presented as an argument about what kind of clothing is appropriate for church; however, the Scriptures make no such distinction about modesty. A Christian woman should choose to dress modestly wherever she is. Just like a non-Christian woman should feel the freedom to attend church no matter how she is dressed and be loved and accepted when she does, a Christian woman should feel free to live her life in every situation without compromising standards of modesty. A Christian woman who chooses to only dress modestly only when she attends church is being just as hypocritical as the Christian man or woman who only refrains from profanity, drunkenness, etc… while at church.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/3/2009 8:41:31 AM >
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 8:35:47 AM
|
|
|
SurpassingPeace
Posts: 815
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Abiyah, you and I would no doubt be in agreement on this. But the questions remain - what is to be taught and who should teach it?
In this thread alone we've seen gossip about another church member to strangers, a situation (Focusing's) where having everything covered isn't considered enough, the spiritual judgment on not only people who don't dress to a certain standard but also those that would defend them against such judgment and judgment about make-up and hair in addition to clothing. Would we give these spirits carte blanche to level their attitudes and tongues on other believers at will?
Yes, yes, yes, and yes, this is what I have a problem with. There seems to be so much self righteous judgment and finger pointing and very little love.
What I was thinking about was this, if I see a woman that is indecently clothed and is a believer, why do I have a problem with it? If I am offended personally or worry my husband will fall off the right path, then I think I need to check my heart. If my heart is broken because she is not obeying the commands of God and therefore is not receiving the abundance in her life promised to her by Christ, that is a good motive to lovingly and humbly come along aside her and teach her the will of God.
_____________________________
Karen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 8:47:08 AM
|
|
|
herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1465
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
So if anyone comes on here with a problem and mentions a particular person be it a friend, wife, husband mum dad, pastor or anyone else they are gossiping? That means that most the people on this forum have been gossips at one time or another.
This is a discussion forums, We are allowed to discuss and state out opinions and experiences are we not?
We are discussing the topic of immodesty. We are discussing our experiences in churches that we go to or may have been to. We are referring to women that we may have known who dress immodestly. People who are in other countries that 99% of people on this forum dont live in, and about whom absoutely no one else has a clue about and never will..
You seem to be making many sweeping statements that simply arent true about people who you know nothing at all about.
To say that a person who rightly goes to their pastor with a problem (rather than discussing it with others in the congregation) somehow has a problem themsleves is totally wrong. Going to the pastor (who actually agreed totally that there was indeed a problem), is the right and Biblical thing to do.The leaders actually told all of us that we must always go to them if we have a problem and not discuss it with others in the congregation, which we would never do anyway.
Just becuase we stand up for certain standards then we are vilified? Our friends who are an elder and his wife say that the right thing definately needs to be that the women is quietly spoken to.If it happened in our church then that would happen. No problema and no fuss. No big deal.
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 11/3/2009 8:59:07 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 9:02:24 AM
|
|
|
CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4192
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
So if anyone comes on here with a problem and mentions a particular person be it a friend, wife, husband mum dad, pastor or anyone else they are gossiping? That means that most the people on this forum have been gossips at one time or another.
This is a discussion forums, We are allowed to discuss and state out opinions and experiences are we not?
We are discussing the topic of immodesty. We are discussing our experiences in churches that we go to or may have been to. We are referring to women that we may have known who dress immodestly. People who are in other countries that 99% of people on this forum dont live in, and about whom absoutely no one else has a clue who that person or those people are and never will.
Soooo, let's say, as an example, I go into another folder here and, without telling anyone who I'm talking about, start discussing the circumstances of your marriage - which you've made quite public. According to your argument, that'd be okay with you, right?
quote:
You make many sweeoping statements that simply arent true about people who you know nothng at all about.
What? You mean you don't like that? Surprise! Neither do the rest of us.
Re: talking to leadership, that was not directed at you but at something that was said or implied earlier (and I forget by whom) that if leadership does nothing they are in the wrong. All I'm saying is that that is not necessarily true.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 9:03:48 AM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
In this thread alone we've seen gossip about another church member to strangers
A claim of Gossiping would be only valid where an example made clear WHO sinned; it is NOT gossip when their is no reasonable expectation that an example used will identify the person in the example provided. For example, it is not Gossip to say:
"Some years ago I knew a person who was caught up in the sin of...."
It is gossip to say:
"Tom Jones was caught up in the sin of..."
Gossip is a problem because it shows complete disregard for the feelings and reputation of others; the focus of gossip is on the failure of the individual and not really the particular sin that is the topic. When the focus of a conversation is about a particular sin i.e. as is often the case in a pastors sermon and an example is used where the individual is NOT identified and cannot easily be identified by deduction, it is NOT gossip, it is simply an example that is being used to help explain the issue being addressed.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 9:08:43 AM
|
|
|
CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4192
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
Status: online
|
Obviously I see it differently. I look at what details are presented and the likelihood of the person talked about being damaged if they knew what another believer in Christ was saying about them to strangers. Maybe I'm off but the things related often seem quite mean-spirited and presented for the purpose of disparaging another believer.
For example this - "is a very devout Christian in her own mind. "
< Message edited by CoeurdeLeon -- 11/3/2009 9:23:28 AM >
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 9:26:46 AM
|
|
|
Tinkerbell_
Posts: 8033
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
|
What motivates a person to go up to someone and gently discuss their attire? Is it a true desire to want to help someone, or is it a need to be needed so we can say, "Oh I saw Sister Helen and she was a mess until I got a hold of her, bless her."
We have to be reeeeeeal careful about why we feel someone needs to change because for all we know the clothes they wear are the most modest they own due to lack of funds, or they just don't care. Some people don't care what others think of them and are happy to live in their own little worlds.
Others are suffering so greatly that the fact they even have clothes on at all is a huge feat.
I'm all for taking people shopping, teaching them how to dress, accessorise, apply makeup...stuff like that but it does no good if it's all for a self serving reason.
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 9:32:54 AM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Obviously I see it differently. I look at what details are presented and the likelihood of the person talked about being damaged if they knew what another believer in Christ was saying about them to strangers. Maybe I'm off but the things related often seem quite mean-spirited.
Sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. On this topic, I personally have used experiences that I had in the past with former women at a church I had attended. However, I do not believe that anyone reading my post would be able to identify a particular person and the example does draw attention to the kind of failures in modesty that many are concerned with. I have used it because it helps clarify my position i.e. I do not believe women should wear burqas, dress in all black long heavy dresses, etc.. but I do believe strongly that churches should hold Christian women attending their church to reasonable standards of modesty (as defined by the leadership of that church). One example I have personally used in another thread on this same topic some time ago involved a woman who was in leadership at the church I attended, she would often dress in very revealing clothing and was very flirtatious; one time she was waring a scoop neck top and approached me as I was sitting in my seat to speak with me. As she stood in front of me, she bent over at the waist and leaned towards me and the scoop of her shirt fell away from her body and left ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the imagination. I had to turn away to avoid a continued look because her position made it IMPOSSIBLE to look at her and not see everything she was showing. If this were a non-Christian woman I would have still looked away out of respect for this woman; however, because this was a woman in leadership at the church and one who did profess faith in Christ, I expected differently.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/3/2009 9:40:05 AM >
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
