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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/1/2009 1:07:56 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
Well, a higher birth rate wouldn't bother me. And what about the possibility that more infants may die very quickly after birth because fairly straightforward procedures haven't been taken? That seems to be a possibility with freebirthing.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/1/2009 4:26:25 PM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I'm don't think it's a moral issue. Mary probably freebirthed when she gave birth to Jesus. While it's not for everyone, I do know a few people who are comfortable with that. Several years ago I talked to a lady whose daughter gave birth four times at home with no assistance. Ironically, in the state this woman lived in, midwifery was illegal. 
I don't think there is any Biblical evidence that Mary "freebirthed". She was in a crowded city . Seems just as reasonable to assume that Joseph ran to the Inn and asked for woman to come help.
Morally speaking, I think any time a parent steps outside the bounds of securing standard and reasonable medical care for their child, it is neglect. I have an 18 year old who would have died at birth had a trained birth attendant not been present. While I, personally, believe that home birth is an irresponsible choice, I can respect those who go that route if they are prepared and taking all reasonable precautions. However, I just can get behind "free birthing" as being for anyone.
I guess my question is simply "Why?"
< Message edited by 10SNE1? -- 11/1/2009 4:40:28 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/1/2009 9:20:14 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2594
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quote:
"Why?"
I'm wondering how much of it is a pride thing? After watching the show on it a few of the ladies mentioned being "impowered" and used a few other very prideful words.
I wonder if a the mother can be charged with endangering her child or someting even something worse if something aweful happens?
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 5:23:42 AM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
I'm wondering how much of it is a pride thing? After watching the show on it a few of the ladies mentioned being "impowered" and used a few other very prideful words.
Empowered means different things to different people.
Women who have been hurt by medical professionals in previous births use that word a lot.
I think for some it might be pride, and for some misinformation, and for some it really is because they believe that they and their baby will be safer at home.
And, while CERTAINLY NOT trying to paint all QF families with a wide brush, I just read an eye-opening book. Apparently ( sorry, bad pun), there are leaders in this movement who teach that OB care is Satanic...some even comparing a C-section to offering the baby to Satan when it is pulled from the womb. 
Again, I'm not saying that I have ever heard any of the QF ladies on here say such a thing.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 7:31:04 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
Morally speaking, I think any time a parent steps outside the bounds of securing standard and reasonable medical care for their child, it is neglect.
I agree, and just because a woman had an unpleasant OB, that is not even close to a good reason to reject all medical care.
quote:
Funnily enough, a lot of this natural birth stuff, and the more radicalized aspects of it, are rooted in feminism.
Well, real feminism (and not the extreme stuff often attributed to it) is all about women being educated and powerful and trusting their minds and their bodies to make a good decision. It's one of the reason I count myself as a feminist, even though I ended up with a satanic c-section. 
ETA: I see a lot of the "my body, my choice" type stuff from some of the most conservative ladies on this forum, not for things like abortion, but that they (and not some doctor) should make all of their medical decisions. I always knew they were secret feminists. 
< Message edited by Sideways -- 11/2/2009 7:38:23 AM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 8:31:49 AM
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Sideways
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Oh no, I don't anyone here thinks such things, nor do we think that conservative women are stupid, either. Remember, the extremists who wrote that above book are more men looking to control women anyways.
But you're right that the far left has plenty of women looking for alternative birthing experiences. It might even be catching on with us moderate! We get our medical care from Kaiser Permanente, and with them you automatically get a midwife for your delivery, unless something goes wrong or the midwife is just to tied up with "normal" births. 
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 10:51:20 AM
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solo_soprano23
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
Morally speaking, I think any time a parent steps outside the bounds of securing standard and reasonable medical care for their child, it is neglect.
I agree, and just because a woman had an unpleasant OB, that is not even close to a good reason to reject all medical care.
quote:
Funnily enough, a lot of this natural birth stuff, and the more radicalized aspects of it, are rooted in feminism.
Well, real feminism (and not the extreme stuff often attributed to it) is all about women being educated and powerful and trusting their minds and their bodies to make a good decision. It's one of the reason I count myself as a feminist, even though I ended up with a satanic c-section.
ETA: I see a lot of the "my body, my choice" type stuff from some of the most conservative ladies on this forum, not for things like abortion, but that they (and not some doctor) should make all of their medical decisions. I always knew they were secret feminists.
Yeah, I hear an awful lot of women who had a bad experience with a doctor turn completely anti-doctor, unless of course, a doctor helps save them or a loved one... then they are okay... unless they have another bad experience. Then all the doctors are evil again.  I saw that with my mom though... One of her children was born using a midwife and died because she wasn't competent and there was a big problem she apparently couldn't recognize, so she doesn't even like them and always went the hospital route so that her babies had a better chance at being saved (that's what got them with the baby that died). She feels guilty about it.
I think women who are having babies need to work to educate themselves with whatever choice they are about to make or potentially make. If you chose a hospital birth, then you need to spend time with good sources checking out the risks (yourself) of things you may want and things that the doctors may feel like you need. We seem to be dependant on doctors to educate us on choices and risks, etc. but I think that's something that we need to do on our own-- and not just for childbirth.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 11/2/2009 11:04:16 AM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 11:54:23 AM
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Consecrated2God
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I guess I tend to think that most women (I'm sure there are a few exceptions) do want the best for the babies, and wouldn't purposely put their child in a situation that they felt was overly risky. I agree that women should educate themselves, but there is a LOT of conflicting information out there on this subject, and I can easily see why women come to vastly different conclusions on what is the safest route. There are other factors to throw in the mix as well, such as what the mother wants, whether it be empowerment from delivering by herself to a pain-free epidural, but I don't think most mothers purposely put her own needs/wants/desires over the safety of her child.
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"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 11:57:41 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
I just think that if a woman is going to take on the *whole* responsibility for birthing, and reject any assistance at all, she should be willing to take on the responsibility should disaster happen. Just like if a doctor takes on the responsibility for a birth and screws things up (it's happened), he or she is responsible for what was done or what should have been done but wasn't.
I agree, but what about the whole "too much government involment."
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Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 12:00:48 PM
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Sideways
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I don't know anyone who equates educating yourself to hating doctors , but I do know women who "educate" themselves with questionable sources. In this day and age it's easy to find a website or blog that will tell you what you already want to hear, so women feel "educated" even if they are being filled with questionable data.
I've seen this with breastfeeding as well, some "expert" who has nursed X number of children will tell a new mom something, and she'll have no un-biased resources to back up her knowledge, but still... she's "educated" on the subject of breastfeeding.
Point being, educate yourself, but with solid sources that can back up their data and don't have an agenda to push.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 11/2/2009 12:07:46 PM >
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 12:03:39 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
Point being, educate yourself, but with solid sources that can back up their data and don't have an agenda to push.
That last part can be difficult to find.
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"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 1:22:35 PM
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DaveW
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Being educated is good, very good. Being educated to the point that you think you know more than the doctor can be dangerous.
There was a maxim I heard back when I was in college: "The man who self diagnoses has a fool for a doctor and an idiot for a patient."
There was a case my senior year where a guy who was in premed decided to give himself an appendectomy. He sterilized the dorm room, sealed it up and set up mirrors and lights so he could see what was going on. Unfortunately he nicked an artery which started a small bleeder and obscured his mirrors so he could not even see where it was bleeding from so he had to call the campus hospital and explain himself. Fortunately, he came thru ok.
Did he have a "right" to do that? Questionable. Was he wise in doing it? Absolutely not.
Perhaps we need to get past what we have a "right" to do and get on with what is wise and responsible to do.
Self-birthing is neither wise nor responsible.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 11/2/2009 1:28:37 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 1:39:41 PM
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GraceyGirl
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I think part of the issue here is recognizing that there is a difference b/t illness and accidents and childbirth. Childbirth is not an illness. Pregnant women are not sick or somehow injured or otherwise incapable of caring for themselves. I realize there are exceptions to this, as many women have high risk pregnancies, but normal childbirth doesn't require a great deal of intervention.
I believe that childbirth does require assistance however. It's logistically impossible to examine and see yourself when you are nine months pregnant and birthing. LOL How many women do you know who can keep their eyes opened the entire time they are pushing? Duh.
I think that states who criminalize home births and midwifery assisted home births (like Ohio) need to take a long, serious look at the corners they are pushing women into. If you aren't sick, there's NO good reason to subject yourself or your unborn child to a hospital where there are SICK PEOPLE. Think about it. OB's advice pregnant women to stay out of ER's. If you are pregnant and show up in one, they whisk you away pretty quickly. So why in the world would I want to bring my brand new baby into the world in a place that caters to sick people? I don't care how much nurses wash their hands or how much Germ-X you have on the wall, germs get around. If I'm healthy, and my baby is healthy, why can't I give birth at home, with my husband, in the comfort of my home, with a trained assistant present? Why am I relegated to a hospital; with an IV in my hand and a cath in my bladder, possibly an epidural and God knows what other interventions.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 1:51:25 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3368
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
I don't know anyone who equates educating yourself to hating doctors
As long as in educating herself she comes to the same conclusion as the doctors.
There are some who would feel that way, but I haven't seen it as the majority viewpoint. Most people don't really care how a woman births her babies, and midwives and doulas have become fairly mainstream.
This is not directed at Maggie, but I have seen an attitude of some like "Oh poor me, the whole universe is against me because I want to give birth without drugs". No, it's not really. Just shop around for a doctor you like, respectfully state your wishes, and things will more then likely work out.
The reality is that we as a population have created a climate where doctors are scared to do anything that isn't insurance approved. The collective we have made our beds, and now we are lying in it with monitors strapped to our bellies.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 1:55:26 PM
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solo_soprano23
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:) to Sideways.
ETA: The hospital that I go to has classes on natural childbirthing and options, classes on waterbirthing, etc. and you have the option to try to have a natural birth at the hospital if you want. A lot of women want to be in a hospital to deliver for the "what ifs," but want to attempt to do it without intervention or with little intervention unless it's needed (some women know they will want an epi, but don't want much more unless it's life or death). There are docs out there who will work with you, but some most definitely won't.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 11/2/2009 2:24:44 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 5:49:27 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Being educated is good, very good. Being educated to the point that you think you know more than the doctor can be dangerous.
Unfortunately, doctors are not infallible. And doctor's education and experience vary. As do their biases and attitudes towards women. And the assumption is from some doctors that birth is not a healthy human function but a disasterous one every single time. Childbirth is very different from say, flu or cancer.
I would have *twice* put myself and my baby and my future children at greater risk by following a doctor's advice on birth. I have been subject to outright intimidation by a doctor that was totally out of line, not to mention factually wrong. Because I educated myself (including getting second opinions from other medical professionals) and came to a very different conclusion than those doctors does not mean that I hate doctors or think of myself as having the same degree of education as a medical doctor would. But the fact is, in regard to me, and my babies, and childbirth, those doctors were wrong.
So having been told something that was flat out wrong by a person who is supposed to be a professional, a caring person, and a very intelligent person, I sympathize with women who have given up completely on the medical model when it comes to childbirth.
I think freebirthing is just the opposite extreme of the pendulum swing. One the one extreme is the assumption that things will always go wrong and will always require a doctor to do something to save the baby from it's mother's body, and on the other extreme is the assumption that if you just get into a nice quiet place and have the right attitude, there's nothing that can go wrong.
I wish the latter were true but I do think it is irresponsible to put oneself in a position where help is not immediately available if it is needed.
I kinda feel like I'm arguing both sides here.
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