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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 9:32:29 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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I have no issues *at all* with homebirth, and am part of a community where homebirth is the norm and I am the oddball for choosing(well, I'm high risk so I don't really have an option) a hospital setting  I don't think that homebirth carries anymore of a risk then a hospital birth and, in many cases, is in fact safer. Reading the stats between Ina May Gaskin's "the farm" and any typical hospital can prove that one...
Freebirthing enters a gray area for me, both safety wise and morally. I know mothers who choose to UC(the term for freebirth in the birthing community) and they are some of the most well educated birthing-mamas that I know. One mother UC'ed with her last 2 births, but had a CNM present(with all her "gear") as a photographer. I can't believe there is a mother out there who would choose to UC and *not* feel responsible if something went wrong. I think a mother's guilt would be plenty of punishment and I would not wish a court battle and prosecution on her(or the father).
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 9:35:12 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Being educated is good, very good. Being educated to the point that you think you know more than the doctor can be dangerous.
I have been subject to outright intimidation by a doctor that was totally out of line, not to mention factually wrong. Because I educated myself (including getting second opinions from other medical professionals) and came to a very different conclusion than those doctors does not mean that I hate doctors or think of myself as having the same degree of education as a medical doctor would. But the fact is, in regard to me, and my babies, and childbirth, those doctors were wrong.
I kinda feel like I'm arguing both sides here. 
Heh. Comes from seeing both sides of the issue.
The bolded part is very important, I think. One doctor can be wrong, but if someone seeks out other trained professionals, then they can get a much better feel for what to do, if they feel the first doctor is wrong. If you have several midwives and doctors all telling you to do a c-section and you still go ahead and push for a natural birth, then you might be endangering your child's life. But if other professionals disagree with the first guy, then you have some good solid backing for defying the first doctor.
I have seen ladies here dismiss a medical degree as nothing but "a piece of paper" and practically meaningless. I've seen that same attitude towards pediatricians, who obviously know nothing about childhood diseases or developmental delays.  Again, if you suspect that the first doctor is wrong... talk to a nurse practitioner or a second doctor, don't just write off the medical profession. (Not you, Maggie  )
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 9:37:38 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
I don't think that homebirth carries anymore of a risk then a hospital birth and, in many cases, is in fact safer. Reading the stats between Ina May Gaskin's "the farm" and any typical hospital can prove that one...
The only part about homebirthing stats is that most midwives will only consent to a homebirth if you meet certain safety criteria, whereas hospitals take everybody. It's like saying one school is better then another school, but the first school only accepts the best and brightest students.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 11/2/2009 9:43:44 PM >
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 9:49:49 PM
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Sideways
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That would be interesting, though hospitals also take women who want interventions, some women want inductions, epidurals, etc. I know it sounds crazy, but there are educated, non-bullied women who choose that kind of stuff.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/2/2009 11:52:55 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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I have seen them contrasted with low-risk births, and the typical interventions excluding pain management(need for pitocin, c-section, forceps, episiotomy) were still much, much lower. I wish I could remember where I have seen/heard them...
I also think for a lot of women the traumatic experience goes beyond just a little bullying by the OB, I know several women who are totally traumatized by the L&D room experience and the interventions that it entailed, a lot of those "interventions" were completely unnecessary. I, on the other hand, had several "interventions" with my induction and I still consider my experience to be fantastic. I couldn't have asked for more... (ok, maybe having the doctor in the room when DD was born  )
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 7:56:45 AM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 219
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
Freebirthing enters a gray area for me, both safety wise and morally. I know mothers who choose to UC(the term for freebirth in the birthing community) and they are some of the most well educated birthing-mamas that I know. One mother UC'ed with her last 2 births, but had a CNM present(with all her "gear") as a photographer. I can't believe there is a mother out there who would choose to UC and *not* feel responsible if something went wrong. I think a mother's guilt would be plenty of punishment and I would not wish a court battle and prosecution on her(or the father).
I would hope that all of us would feel compassion for any grieving parent. However, as a society, we do recognize a need to protect those who are too old, young, disabled to protect themselves. We also recognize certain family members has having a legal responsibility toward others. My brother and I can not choose to neglect the physical needs of our elderly parents without facing " a court battle and prosecution" if our actions are deemed to be neglectful and result in death or serious harm. Being the "grieving child" of a dead mother would not excuse the fact or be "punishment enough" if we decide to disregard medical advice and not give mom her medication or transport her to a hospital.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 9:45:20 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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So then should we make homebirth and UC illegal? Should we prosecute mothers whose children die in a hospital? Or is that ok since there is a doctor to take the fall? Where do you draw the line?
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 11:53:26 AM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 219
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
So then should we make homebirth and UC illegal? Should we prosecute mothers whose children die in a hospital? Or is that ok since there is a doctor to take the fall? Where do you draw the line?
For me personally, I think I would "draw the line" at purposeful UC. I would not personally choose a home birth. However, I would not make it illegal to have a home birth which is attended by a trained midwife, doctor etc.
Not accusing anyone of being a closet abortion supporter but, really, this "my body,my choice" mentally toward birth seems to be just as willing to ignore the fact that there are TWO lives to consider here.
Does the baby get a choice?
Why does the mothers "right" to choose her birth environment trump the baby's right to immediate access to life saving care?
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 12:06:40 PM
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Consecrated2God
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Does anyone know if there are any statistics showing whether or not the practice of freebirthing is dangerous?
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"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 12:20:39 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2082
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
So then should we make homebirth and UC illegal? Should we prosecute mothers whose children die in a hospital? Or is that ok since there is a doctor to take the fall? Where do you draw the line?
For me personally, I think I would "draw the line" at purposeful UC. I would not personally choose a home birth. However, I would not make it illegal to have a home birth which is attended by a trained midwife, doctor etc.
Not accusing anyone of being a closet abortion supporter but, really, this "my body,my choice" mentally toward birth seems to be just as willing to ignore the fact that there are TWO lives to consider here.
Does the baby get a choice?
Why does the mothers "right" to choose her birth environment trump the baby's right to immediate access to life saving care?
That's what has always concerned me. I don't care what someone does with themselves; they are adults and can choose whatever they want. But it's as if the baby doesn't even come into play at times with so many women I see, and I don't agree with being like that. There are two people, not just the mother, and the potential consequences are not always solely on the mother.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 11/3/2009 12:57:01 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 1:30:55 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 219
Joined: 4/19/2005
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Sometimes people are just wrong. My dh has a cousin who firmly and vocally believed that "God had designed mothers to protect their children" and, therefore, a baby was safer in his mother's arms than in those car seats which were beginning to be mandated. Car seat laws were, in her opinion, a case of the government overstepping it's bounds into the affairs of a family. Is it a shame that the government has to make a law that punishes people who can't be bothered to buckle up their kids? Or are too misinformed or ignorant to understand the real danger? YES! But that doesn't change the fact that our society has deemed it appropriate to step in when parental ignorance is endangering a child.
Yes, we all know someone whose neighbor knew someone who was in a burning car and only had time to get their baby out because they didn't have to unbuckle her from a car seat. However, we don't make potentially deadly decisions based on one outlier event.
< Message edited by 10SNE1? -- 11/3/2009 1:37:15 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 1:40:11 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3366
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
But, the women I know and the ones I've seen write about freebirthing do it because they care about their baby and feel they and their baby will be safer away from doctors.
They may feel their baby is safer away from doctors, but a trained midwife as well? I think their feelings are misplaced, badly, and they are putting their baby in danger.
10NSEI is right, some people are just plain wrong, and while this may get me into trouble, I do agree that intentional freebirthing should be made illegal and prosecuted.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 1:41:57 PM
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GroupW
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I think there's a basic principle at stake that can be very clearly articulated.
It should be legal for you to be able to take significant risks for yourself.
It should not be legal for you to take significant risks for another person who's unable to make that choice for himself.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 2:12:13 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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From the article Deb posted:
quote:
No one knows how many women give birth at home by choice without medical assistance, nor are there any studies of the safety of the practice.
I think, at the very least, studies should be done about the safety of the practice before people start legislating stuff.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 3:06:36 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 3416
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
It should not be legal for you to take significant risks for another person who's unable to make that choice for himself.
But WHERE do you draw the line? Ok, so say we make "freebirthing" illegal. What if I choose not to "do" all the so called necessary pre-natal testing that my OB recommends and something happens that could have been prevented. Should I then be prosecuted because I chose not to do a test?
I know women who choose not to do ANY ultrasounds during their pregnancy. If their child is born with a serious heart defect and dies shortly after birth should they then be prosecuted because knowing before hand might have changed something?
It's all well and good to want to prevent UC births(although I find it quite ridiculous in a country that allows the intentional slaughter of babies) but when do we stop legislating what a woman can and can't choose in pregnancy?
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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With driving, you could say "Well, accidents happen, that's nobody's fault", but a freebirther would say the same thing about birth, that you can't control it all the time.
