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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence for certain kinds of creatures interacting.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/10/2009 7:07:50 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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quote:
Well yes we do know that Allosaurus either hunted or scavanged other dinosaurs. As mentioned above we've found injuries in plant eating dinosaurs that match the teeth of Allosaurus. This suggests a shared ecosystem. No such thing exists for Allosarus and animals that we know live today.
As I stated before, you have no idea how Allosaurus interacted with Buffalo. So they attacked other Dinosaurs. Did they do it for food? Did they just do it to protect their habitat or young from perceived threats? You have no idea. You are totally speculating here.
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There are Buffalo/Bison like creatures in the old world and new. This suggests migration via the land bridge that we know once existed between Alaska and Siberia, not human introduction of them.
I have no argument as to the introduction of the species. You just do not know when. Did they come before or after the Allosaurus demise? Again, you have no idea.
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Logically antelope, rabbits, and deer can outrun most of their predators, their predators still get them sometimes though.
The keyword is sometimes. Again, you have no idea as the populations densities of various species at the time. You can only guess. You also do not know if Allosaurus ever hunted a Bison. You have no proof.
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The idea of scavanging animals staying away from big mean looking predators isn't suppourted by biology. For example scavanging birds don't stay away from food that lions have killed they wait for the lions to get done, and then dig in.
The point about scavenging animals is that they mess big time with your neat and tidy remains. If there were enough scavenging animals, you would have no remains. Assuming there were any remains in the first place.
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If Allosaurus were exterminated by human predation, where is the evidence?
We know from old historical documents(book of Job, cave drawings, misclassified accounts etc. ) that man lived at the time of Allosaurus like looking creatures. Given these creatures would have been scary looking and perceived as a threat, it is only logical to assume that the threat would have been attacked and killed until there were no more.
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Again where are the spear tips in their remains?
You assume that they were hunted with spears. I really have no idea what they used. If you watch a lot of T.V. I guess you would think that they were used. However, the book of Job indicates that spears would have been infective. Could they have used poison? I suppose. What about digging a pit like they used do for tigers? I would think they could have. What about starvation? That would work too. What if they killed just their young? A slow but effective death.
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Where are the Native American artifacts (remember they were North American animals) made out of their bones? We know that the native peoples of the American west made tools out of the other animals they hunted, why not dinosaurs if they coexisted? We also have evidence that ancient humans hunted now extinct animals in Europe (and it is believed the 1st Americans did the same with animals like Mammoths.) There should be ample evidence if they also killed of Allosaurus and other meat eating dinosaurs.
I do not know when the American Indians came to America. Given how few there were when the West was won, I would say they have not been here for that long at all. When they came to America, did they arrive in Argentina and migrate North? Don't know. So I guess what I am asking is that did they come before or after Allosaurus died off? If they came after, that would explain the lack of tools issue.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/10/2009 7:15:19 PM
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rcjames
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I have been monitoring this thread, and been enjoying it.
I am not, in contrast to many (Most) of my peers, a Young Earther. I date the earth, and the heavens so far back that I would not know how to describe that date.
I fully believe that God created the heavens and the earth, but certainly not 6-10,000 years ago.
I draw my most unscientific conclusions from Scripture and over 50 years of travel around the world with a great interest in the multiply hundered archeological digs and museums that I have had the pleasure of viewing and/or participating in.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/11/2009 8:29:40 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/10/2009 11:57:47 PM
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schtumpy
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I think this part of the reason for lack of respect YEC's get from mainstream science.
There should be ways of measuring when things like the Ice Age or the Yucatan Meteor explosion happened.
Science offers many such methods which correlate with each other - though clearly YEC's disagree with these conclusions.
The frustration from our side comes from the lack of rigor for testing momentous events and periods from the YEC side.
By the way, you'd think that an event such as an Ice Age or any of the great meteors or volcanoes with their obvious global ramifications might just have gotten an occasional mention in the bible.
Just a thought.
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ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
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ORIGINAL: DanJames
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ORIGINAL: jjbird
I'm not sure how YEC come to their conclusion in light of evidence against it.
I don't hold to the view that the earth is young. There is not evidence to support that view biblically or scientifically.
That's... kinda the purpose of this entire section of the Faith Community Network forums. Ya know, to discuss the biblical and scientific evidence in support of the competing scientific paradigms.
So Dan, how long ago do you think the Ice Age was?
Post flood but pre Christ?
How do you measure when it was?
Not sure, I think it goes in cycles starting very soon after the Flood. Just let me know when we start talking about biology again. The best I can do when it comes to geology is speculate unless we're talking about what the Bible says.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 4:39:55 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
As I stated before, you have no idea how Allosaurus interacted with Buffalo. So they attacked other Dinosaurs. Did they do it for food? Did they just do it to protect their habitat or young from perceived threats? You have no idea. You are totally speculating here.
I don't have any idea how Allosaurus would have interacted with these other animals. That's what I'm saying, there is no evidence that they ever did, but there is considerable evidence that these dinosaurs were long gone before the first bisons appeared. I'm suggesting that if Y.E.C is true then not only evidence of shared ecosystems between animals that scientest believe lived in diffrent time periods but there should also be out of phase fossils galore.
Given the binocular vision of Allosaurus, it's claws, the shape of it's teeth, and the way it's jaw was designed it's not illogical to draw the conclusion that it was a hunter/scavanger.
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I have no argument as to the introduction of the species. You just do not know when. Did they come before or after the Allosaurus demise? Again, you have no idea.
You were suggesting human introduction of these animals into the new world, sort of like how the horse was reintroduced to the Americas by the Spanish then became wild. Wasn't that what you were suggesting, or did I misread you?
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The keyword is sometimes. Again, you have no idea as the populations densities of various species at the time. You can only guess. You also do not know if Allosaurus ever hunted a Bison. You have no proof.
Again, I don't have any proof that Allosaurus ate bison or other animals alive today, while I do have evidence of this creature eating other "Late Jurassic" (I put it in quotes because Y.E.C advocates don't accept these ages) dinosaurs. That's what I'm pointing out.
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The point about scavenging animals is that they mess big time with your neat and tidy remains. If there were enough scavenging animals, you would have no remains. Assuming there were any remains in the first place.
Why would the scavangers take away one type of animals bones, but leave the dinosaur bones alone?
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We know from old historical documents(book of Job, cave drawings, misclassified accounts etc. ) that man lived at the time of Allosaurus like looking creatures. Given these creatures would have been scary looking and perceived as a threat, it is only logical to assume that the threat would have been attacked and killed until there were no more.
It's not logical because I'm still not convinced that the dragon legends=human/dinosaur interaction. And the two creatures described in the end of Job are nothing like Allosaurus. One ate grass and the other was aquatic. We also have the issue of Dinosaurs living in places that are either sparsley populated by humans or where humans don't really live (the South pole anyone?)
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You assume that they were hunted with spears. I really have no idea what they used. If you watch a lot of T.V. I guess you would think that they were used. However, the book of Job indicates that spears would have been infective. Could they have used poison? I suppose. What about digging a pit like they used do for tigers? I would think they could have. What about starvation? That would work too. What if they killed just their young? A slow but effective death.
That would be a very big pit, and again speculation. I want strong emperical evidence for this incredible claim that dinosaurs (and the flying reptiles and marine reptiles who also have to be accounted for) were wiped out by humans.
quote:
I do not know when the American Indians came to America. Given how few there were when the West was won, I would say they have not been here for that long at all. When they came to America, did they arrive in Argentina and migrate North? Don't know. So I guess what I am asking is that did they come before or after Allosaurus died off? If they came after, that would explain the lack of tools issue.
Scientest have genetically linked many of the indigenous peoples of the Americas with people from North Eastern Asia and Siberia. American Indians are ethnically grouped with mongoloids. I can look up some reputable links for you if you want. If you're going to use the argument that the dragon legends were inspired by Allosaurus, you have to have people in North America because that's where this particular dinosaur lived.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/11/2009 5:01:30 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 7:50:35 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Mark, the thread is about scientific evidence from a YEC perspective.
You can tear down mainstream geology, anthropology and paleantology all you want on other threads.
What way do YEC scientists have of measuring when things like the Ice Age occured?
Or how old the Australian Aborigine rock paintings are etc?
What is your scientific method of measuring events and items of antiquity? And you still don't get it after almost a thousand posts in almost a year! It is NEVER about "scientific evidence" when we are discussing origins, schtumpy. It is ALWAYS about interpretation of evidence and YEC scientists interpret the evidence differently than uniformitarian naturalists. I'm sure you know the relevant websites to visit for answers to your questions, so I will not waste space here listing them...
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 8:33:38 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
And you still don't get it after almost a thousand posts in almost a year! It is NEVER about "scientific evidence" when we are discussing origins, schtumpy. It is ALWAYS about interpretation of evidence and YEC scientists interpret the evidence differently than uniformitarian naturalists. I'm sure you know the relevant websites to visit for answers to your questions, so I will not waste space here listing them...
You keep trumpeting this as if the YEC interpretation is equally as valid, equally as consistent with the rest of scientific understanding of our world, as that of the mainstream scientific community.
One could use the same argument for crime scene forensics. If a body is found in a river, with water in the lungs, a cinder block chains to his ankles, a clean toxicology test, and no other signs of trauma, CSI #1 would say that there is evidence that the cause of death was drowning. CSI #2 could interpret that same evidence to mean that the person died in a hail of gunfire. By your standards, both interpretations are equally valid and w/o having been there to witness the crime, we can never know what happened.
-Dan.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 12:39:18 PM
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drmark
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quote:
By your standards, both interpretations are equally valid and w/o having been there to witness the crime, we can never know what happened. Nice try, iluvatar, but I am unaware of any firearm that causes death from a "hail of gunfire" without any "other signs of trauma"! Invisible magic bullets, perhaps?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 9:27:54 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
By your standards, both interpretations are equally valid and w/o having been there to witness the crime, we can never know what happened. Nice try, iluvatar, but I am unaware of any firearm that causes death from a "hail of gunfire" without any "other signs of trauma"! Invisible magic bullets, perhaps?
I'm unaware of any physical process that can lay out all of the evidence found in nature in the span of a mere 6000 years.
Looks like "God did it" is the answer to both.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 11:19:20 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
Are you? The Bible contains a number of eye witness accounts of creation. Last time I checked, eye witness accounts were allowed as evidence in a court of law. In legal circles, this is called a deposition.
Who were the eyewitnesses?
btw, sudies show that eyewitness testimony is very unreliable. some lawyers believe that it tells us less about a case, because memory is poor.
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Based on the description of the tail("like a cedar"), I would say what is being discussed is a Titanosaurus http://www.go-fossils.com/Titanosaurus.htm
n, it's a well-endowed hipo. but that's best left for another thread.
quote:
A good scientist will look at all sources of information. And when I mean all, I mean all.
alien abduction accounts, too?
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 11:31:10 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
You assume that they were hunted with spears. I really have no idea what they used.
quote:
I do not know when the American Indians came to America.
and this is the crux of the problem. people who do not know anything about a topic feel as though they know more than the experts.
< Message edited by shakezula -- 11/11/2009 11:37:17 PM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/11/2009 11:42:07 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
It's not logical because I'm still not convinced that the dragon legends=human/dinosaur interaction.
that makes sense. you don't need live dinosaurs to conjure up dragon myths. dinosaur bones are impressive as is. plus there is a long history of cultures taking liberties with prehistoric remains to explain away their legends. some think the Greeks used dino bones as evidence of their gods.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/12/2009 12:35:15 AM
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schtumpy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Mark, the thread is about scientific evidence from a YEC perspective.
You can tear down mainstream geology, anthropology and paleantology all you want on other threads.
What way do YEC scientists have of measuring when things like the Ice Age occured?
Or how old the Australian Aborigine rock paintings are etc?
What is your scientific method of measuring events and items of antiquity? And you still don't get it after almost a thousand posts in almost a year! It is NEVER about "scientific evidence" when we are discussing origins, schtumpy. It is ALWAYS about interpretation of evidence and YEC scientists interpret the evidence differently than uniformitarian naturalists. I'm sure you know the relevant websites to visit for answers to your questions, so I will not waste space here listing them...
I'm not talking about origins.
I'm asking how you date what happened in antiquity.
And no. I don't know the relevant sites.
I'm pretty sure no YEC "anthropologist" has ever tried to date the Aborigine rock paintings and I don't care if he has.
I merely want to know how he would do it.
Or how you would measure how long ago the Ice Age was or the Yucatan Meteor strike.
This thread is not about origins.
It is about how YEC scientists collect data to determine scientific truth such as would answer the above questions.
If you don't know, then please ignore the question or merely say, as DanJames has graciously done, "I don't know."
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/12/2009 2:38:40 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
I do not know when the American Indians came to America. Given how few there were when the West was won, I would say they have not been here for that long at all. When they came to America, did they arrive in Argentina and migrate North?
AnalystsAreUs
At the time of Spanish arrival in the new world the indigenous people of the Americas had developed many diffrent languges and enviroment specific lifestyles. They had rich mythological and cultural beliefs tied to the land. They also had signifigantly genetically diffrenciated from the people of North Eastern Asia who scientest have traced their ancestory to.
This suggests that their arrival on the continents had happened long, long before 1492. In other words thousands of years.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/12/2009 2:50:39 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/12/2009 8:19:21 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I'm unaware of any physical process that can lay out all of the evidence found in nature in the span of a mere 6000 years. So you doubt that God could use "physical processes" to create the universe?
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/12/2009 8:59:22 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I'm unaware of any physical process that can lay out all of the evidence found in nature in the span of a mere 6000 years. So you doubt that God could use "physical processes" to create the universe?
Not at all - in fact, that's exactly what I believe He did.
However, as I said, I am unaware of any physical processes that can give us all of what we see in a span of 6000 years.
If you want to argue that God circumvented or momentarily manipulated to a great degree those processes to either speed things up or draw/paint by hand evidence of things that didn't really happen, then you're free to do so. I don't even believe that God is incapable of that. However, making those claims is not science; and the difference between that belief and those of the scientific community is not merely the matter of differing interpretations you often portray it as.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/12/2009 12:31:36 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I'm not sure how YEC come to their conclusion in light of evidence against it.
I don't hold to the view that the earth is young. There is not evidence to support that view biblically or scientifically.
That's... kinda the purpose of this entire section of the Faith Community Network forums. Ya know, to discuss the biblical and scientific evidence in support of the competing scientific paradigms.
Yes we are here to discuss it.
You mention the biblical evidence. Well the YEC's rely on geneaologies counting them to determine the age of the earth but that is completely unreliable and irresponsible method for dating the earth's age due to the simple fact that ancient Hebrew geneaologies skipped generations and only included specific prominent ones for theological reasons.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/13/2009 1:30:08 AM
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schtumpy
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So there are no YEC's to give simple answers to the "How" questions of dating?
quote:
I'm pretty sure no YEC "anthropologist" has ever tried to date the Aborigine rock paintings and I don't care if he has.
I merely want to know how he would do it.
Or how you would measure how long ago the Ice Age was or the Yucatan Meteor strike.
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I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/13/2009 1:41:57 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
You're dismissing ManimalX's point too casually. What about evidience of penguin & desert fox interaction? What about kangaroo & lion interaction evidence? Is there any fossil evidence that an anaconda ever ate an elephant? Maybe they never lived at the same time. Or maybe they just never ate each other.
I have a problem with the animal examples that you used. I specifically used the creatures that I did because they shared the same geographical location (parts of what is now the western U.S.A) and could therefore be reasonably expected to interact with one another. Penguins do not live in the same place as desert foxes, and anacondas do not live near elephants (naturally, outside of places like zoos.) So it's an invalid analogy.
Would you not find it weird if scientest from the future were unable to find any evidence that an apex predator like a lion interacted with antelope, or zebra?
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/13/2009 2:47:08 AM >
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RE: Young Earth creationism, and the lack of evidence f... - 11/13/2009 2:02:12 AM
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StephenJ
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In response to Shakezula's comment about dinosaur bones and tales of dragons.
I believe elephant or mammoth skulls were also used as "evidence" for cyclopses. Afterall it's not like that singular, big gapping hole in its head could be a nose...it has to be an eye right?
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/13/2009 2:49:34 AM >
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