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Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non Attendance
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 9:44:08 AM
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rcjames
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Persistent and willful absences should be addressed by the leadership, and I would presume in the same manner that sin in the congregation should be addressed with the congregant.
To help restore thier desire to serve God and gather with the Saints, if they do not so desire; then they should be changed from member to attendee.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 9:49:59 AM
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Digrieze
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Yes, definitely, right after we make suicide punishable by summary execution.
Seriously, we are to restore each other in *LOVE*, not by trying to hold them under our ecclesiastical thumb with a "membership roster" that is essentially meaningless. Such controlling manauvers are a sure sign of a need to control others in a very ungodly way (as if there COULD be a godly way)!
Interestingly, no one seems to question why they are no longer attending (but I suspect I could guess one very good reason).
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 10:00:24 AM
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BelleWeather
Posts: 721
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xgringo
What do you guys think of ?
http://sbcvoices.com/church-discipline-for-persistent-and-willful-non-attendance/
It appears that fellowship in the SBC to be more like gang membership than church membership.
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 10:01:53 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5592
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Discipline never looks pretty on paper...it's in the hearts of those walking it out.
Elders are accountable to God shepherding His flock, not their flock. Elders are also worthy of respect and should be an integral part of their local body, knowing and caring for them in love and compassion.
I take no issue with biblical discipline with a heart of restoration and reconciliation. I do take issue with discipline for discipline's sake and a pharisaical sense of accountability.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 10:35:14 AM
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KaptZ
Posts: 172
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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I still am a member of a UCC church that my family belonged to in my childhood hometown. My wife and I live about 45 minutes away and have not attended since the death of my mother 4 years ago. I enjoy getting emails of the church newsletter and hearing goings on there, but we are looking for a church closer to us now.
If my old church sent me a letter ASKING if I wished to cancel my membership I would not be suprised. If they sent me a letter ORDERING me to cancel my membership, I would be suprised and offended.
If my old church dealt with members like the link in the OP did I would have never joined in the first place.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 10:52:05 AM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Digrieze
Interestingly, no one seems to question why they are no longer attending (but I suspect I could guess one very good reason). I would take that as part of what RC said about the leadership addressing it. Finding out why should be their first step.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 10:57:45 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3803
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BelleWeather
It appears that fellowship in the SBC to be more like gang membership than church membership.
When your a baptist you're a baptist all the way
from your first ciga....
Never mind. I guess it works better for "Jets".
My apologies to Leonard Bernstien and the cast of West Side Story.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 11:19:05 AM
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Focusing
Posts: 5177
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The article starts
quote:
Neglecting the meetings of the church is a sin and church discipline is to be used in the case of unrepentant sin. Church discipline not only restores wayward sheep, but also removes unbelievers from the church and protects the corporate witness of the local church. If a member is not attending, it is likely that the elders would not know if the member is living in sin and the member becomes a liability to the church’s corporate testimony.
Sounds like a huge case of pride to me.
_____________________________
Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you.
Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 11:33:41 AM
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crankius
Posts: 3755
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xgringo
What do you guys think of ?
http://sbcvoices.com/church-discipline-for-persistent-and-willful-non-attendance/
Interesting. Yesterday I read this article, Those Toxic Non-Attenders, by Matt Schumucker of 9marks.
Some quotes from the article:
I fear too many Christians think that not attending church on a regular basis is a sin of omission; if it's a sin at all, it would be a little one. No big deal. "Don't bring that legalism over here!" Apparently, this is what many pastors, elders, deacons and whole congregations think, since they have done little to address the staggering numbers of non-attenders.
THE TOXIC EFFECTS OF NON-ATTENDERS
1. They Make Evangelism Harder
2. They Confuse New Believers
3. They Discourage Regular Attenders
4. They Worry Their Leaders
He concludes:
While time and courage are needed to address the problem of non-attenders, every pastor or elder should feel a burden to remove these no-shows and cure the toxic effect they have on evangelism, on new believers, on the faithful attenders, and on the church's shepherds. The payoff? As the church's membership increasingly consists only in those who faithfully attend and contribute to the life of the body, the church will begin to resemble the body God intended: a display of his wisdom that brings glory to the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ.
I think their goal is to more closely resemble the truly regenerate church, but I'm afraid such thinking and policies about church membership will result in a church of rule-followers over Christ-followers.
I would think we would want intense followers of Christ coming to church because they are finding true fellowship and spiritual growth, not because of man-made rules. Even an unbeliever can have perfect attendance.
We need to be careful how we approach church attendance, I think.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew 
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 11:46:49 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5592
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IMO...A policy, a rule, a by-law is fairly neutral until the elders begin a process of walking it out with the flock.
I think before I judge this policy (or whatever it's called) too harshly, I'd like to see it walked out and if God was the one glorified in the process.
I do recall reading that each member was unique and individual...and these policies were a broader brush to set a standard.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 11:57:42 AM
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gcsmithjr
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quote:
What do you guys think of ?
http://sbcvoices.com/church-discipline-for-persistent-and-willful-non-attendance/
There are a couple of fairly major theological issues with the article and the standards it suggests.
First of all, the concept of "membership", as it exists today, is completely absent in the New Testament. Clearly people choose to become members of a church for a myriad of reasons (and I don't think there's any reason not to have membership) and, if attendance is part of the membership covenant, RC's solution is perfect - people who choose to no longer fulfill their side of the agreement should no longer be considered members.
The standards quoted in the article, however, take this idea to a ridiculous extreme. The article states that "Persistent and willful non-attendance is a sin requiring church discipline". Scripture is fairly clear as to what constitutes sin, and I fail to find any scripture that could possibly lead someone to say that non-attendance is a sin.. There are any number of places in scripture where we are exhorted to do things, but failure to do those things does not necessarily constitute sin.
The author of the piece (in the comments below the article) goes on to make a variety of claims that undermine his own position. For example he says: I do not presume evil in the absent member, but only suggest discipline in the cases where it is learned that the absence is sinful, which makes it clear the discipline has nothing to do with lack of attendance, but is more tied to sinful actions which lead to non-attendance.
He goes on to say that "there is not a scripture that I know of which details a procedure for church discipline in the case of non-attendance. However, I do not think we need such specific instruction."
Honestly, I think the author of the original piece has confused the concepts of church discipline and a "membership covenant". There is no Biblical requirement for membership, and I think anyone would be hard-pressed to make the case that non attendance is a sin.
On the other hand, if someone chooses to join a church and agree to uphold the standards of membership (which, at least in the case of my church, includes "regular attendance", tithing, serving, and being in a small group), and fails to abide by those standards, that person's membership status should be re-evaluated, but I think we would be hard pressed to make the case that failing to uphold specific membership standards automatically equals sin.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 12:46:27 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
I still am a member of a... church that my family belonged to... and have not attended since.... 4 years ago. ...If they sent me a letter ORDERING me to cancel my membership, I would be suprised and offended.
Fascinating.
So you consider yourself one of the members of that body and would hold the pastors there accountable for you as a member? eg, were they to imply that you did not meet the definition of a member... you'd take offense - so I'm guessing you think you meet the definition.
OK. Is there any conceivable way the leaders of that church can be held accountable to this instruction found in 1 Peter 5?
1To the elders... Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, ...eager to serve; ... being examples to the flock.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 1:13:05 PM
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LivingParadox
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Exactly how would "tabs" be kept on non-attending members? Maybe a time clock at the door to punch? Yes, leadership should be concerned with members go MIA action but I think a decree might be a little over the edge as you don't know for sure the individual wasn't there, possibly attending elsewhere, out of town, sick, etc. Probably a concerned pastor, elder or such visiting the non-attending member would be a little more approriate
For the record, I grew up in the denomination and these decrees seem to come out ever so often but most of the SBC churches I've attended rarely take these decrees literally.
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You're dangerous 'cause you're honest ~U2
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 1:34:05 PM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
Exactly how would "tabs" be kept on non-attending members? The idea of "membership" as we call it did not exist in the first century. People knew each other, ate together regularly, knew personally each and every family member.
Tabs should be kept on "non attending" members in that way. When you go to their house (as part of how you regularly relate to others in your congregation) ask them what is going on.
The passage in Hebrews (which I assume is the basis for calling non attendance a sin) commands us to not forsake the "assembling" of ourselves together; not attending or gathering. Being collected or gathered is one thing. To be assembled is quite another.
Just ask anyone who has ever bought anything in kit form. All the pieces are collected together but assembly is required for it to function.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 2:11:48 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5592
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Just ask anyone who has ever bought anything in kit form. All the pieces are collected together but assembly is required for it to function.
exactly...and the "body" cannot function without all its parts
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 2:26:03 PM
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davelinde
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From: New Jersey
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btw... this concept cuts both ways. I think there are pastor out there who HATE the idea of taking anyone's name off the membership roll because they want the numbers to go up, up, up only up.
on the flip side there is a certain irony in moving along a process of discipline that has an ultimate step of dis-fellowship for someone who has voluntarily removed themselves from fellowship.
btw - the last time I was involved in this kind of thing we (an SBC church btw) instituted an annual renewal of a covenant with the church. If a year went by and you had not been there, you were no longer a member by definition. And yes... that did offend some people. On the flip side, if you cared enough to be offended you were surely invited to consider acting as and again becoming a member. It was truly about relationship not rules.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 2:58:45 PM
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KaptZ
Posts: 172
Joined: 10/28/2009
From: The swamps of Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
I still am a member of a... church that my family belonged to... and have not attended since.... 4 years ago. ...If they sent me a letter ORDERING me to cancel my membership, I would be suprised and offended.
Fascinating.
So you consider yourself one of the members of that body and would hold the pastors there accountable for you as a member? eg, were they to imply that you did not meet the definition of a member... you'd take offense - so I'm guessing you think you meet the definition.
OK. Is there any conceivable way the leaders of that church can be held accountable to this instruction found in 1 Peter 5?
1To the elders... Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, ...eager to serve; ... being examples to the flock.
My church was never in the habit of issuing "orders". I think if we, or any other member, were to be absent one Sunday or 25 years of Sundays the day we chose to show up we'd be welcomed back with open arms.
They treated members like family. We only see my sister and her family once a year. I wish they lived closer, but I savor the time I have with them rather than ream them out about the times I don't.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 3:06:17 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6350
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
btw - the last time I was involved in this kind of thing we (an SBC church btw) instituted an annual renewal of a covenant with the church. If a year went by and you had not been there, you were no longer a member by definition. And yes... that did offend some people. On the flip side, if you cared enough to be offended you were surely invited to consider acting as and again becoming a member. It was truly about relationship not rules.
With SBC churches around here, we have a large segment we refer to as the "Holly & Lily" crowd that only show up twice a year. So they would get instant renewal two times.
On pastors only wanting the roll to go up, that makes little practical sense to me, since having a huge number of absentess contributes nothing to the ministries or finances of the church. What I have heard from SBC pastors is a reluctance to cut people loose without any lifeline to bring them back. It's along the lines of Jesus' parable of the 99 sheep in the fold and the 1 lost. The Shepherd didn't just say, "It's your fault you've wandered away and you know where we are if you ever want to come back to submit to our fold's rules."
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 3:19:51 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5592
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
btw - the last time I was involved in this kind of thing we (an SBC church btw) instituted an annual renewal of a covenant with the church. If a year went by and you had not been there, you were no longer a member by definition. And yes... that did offend some people. On the flip side, if you cared enough to be offended you were surely invited to consider acting as and again becoming a member. It was truly about relationship not rules.
With SBC churches around here, we have a large segment we refer to as the "Holly & Lily" crowd that only show up twice a year. So they would get instant renewal two times.
On pastors only wanting the roll to go up, that makes little practical sense to me, since having a huge number of absentess contributes nothing to the ministries or finances of the church. What I have heard from SBC pastors is a reluctance to cut people loose without any lifeline to bring them back. It's along the lines of Jesus' parable of the 99 sheep in the fold and the 1 lost. The Shepherd didn't just say, "It's your fault you've wandered away and you know where we are if you ever want to come back to submit to our fold's rules."
Ya know that shepherds also broke the leg of a consistently wandering sheep.
I wonder if that would be considered spiritual abuse? 
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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