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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non Attendance
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 3:53:16 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 1263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: BelleWeather
quote:
ORIGINAL: xgringo
What do you guys think of ?
http://sbcvoices.com/church-discipline-for-persistent-and-willful-non-attendance/
It appears that fellowship in the SBC to be more like gang membership than church membership.
'Appears' is the key word in your statement. It's important to realize that things are not always how they appear. What's sad is that too many people read something like this and knee jerk with the assumption that it represents all of the SBC. I'm in an SBC church, and it doesn't represent us nor many other SBC churches I know. Just thought you might want to know that so your knee can have a rest. 
I completely agree. I've been in an SBC church since 1986 and have never heard anyone, including pastor or staff, ever refer to missing attendance as a sin or even toxic to the church.
For decades I tried to be at church every time the church was open, but I eventually learned that God didn't expect that of me.
This is my main gripe about this topic... when did missing church become a sin? Is there something biblical to back this up? If not, those Pastors who are saying such should be careful in how they proceed.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 4:09:14 PM
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gcsmithjr
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quote:
If not, those Pastors who are saying such should be careful in how they proceed.
I agree. By the way, I checked out the author of this particular piece and he's not a pastor, he's a web designer. I was under the impression he was a Pastor when I read the initial piece and was curious about his church, but his profile and website indicate the he designs web pages for churches. Obviously nothing wrong with that but it does change my perception of the legitimacy of the piece.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 4:17:41 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
My church was never in the habit of issuing "orders". I think if we, or any other member, were to be absent one Sunday or 25 years of Sundays the day we chose to show up we'd be welcomed back with open arms.
I have association by past attendance with several churches and if I visited them again I'd be welcomed by those who remembered me. But I don't understand that as membership or any defined relationship with those churches.
Perhaps part of the disconnect is a church that gives no direction (aka issues orders), cannot really have a concept of being under their spiritual authority -- after all they require nothing. In which case being a member or not being a member can boil down to feeling welcome or not.
What I was trying to illustrate was that "church membership" really shouldn't be a unilateral right you assert (and take offense if it is questioned) but a multi-lateral responsibility between those who accept the responsibilities. Claiming the right, then never being present makes it impossible for those in leadership to fulfill their responsibilities (assuming you agree they have a responsibility to their flock? aka members?)
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 5:40:42 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2220
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
When your a baptist you're a baptist all the way
from your first ciga....
Never mind. I guess it works better for "Jets".
My apologies to Leonard Bernstien and the cast of West Side Story.
When you're a Jet, let them do what they can,
You got brothers around, you're a family man.
Never alone! Never disconnected!
Always your own. Company expected.
Or you're rejected!
Ditto, my apologies to Leonard Bernstein... yes, I changed the last line.
Church discipline is biblical, but for non-attendence? Most moral problems are mentioned more than once in Scripture and have more detail (once is enough, but this one is a little nebulous) - all we have on non-attenders is "forsake not the gathering together of the saints." Period, unless you can make an argument from principle in other places. Does Christmas and Easter fulfill that requirement? Pffft, I don't know. Maybe we should go to church daily like our Catholic brethren? Would church picnics count?
If it's not strongly and clearly backed by Scripture, I don't see how a person could be called in non-compliance for it. Adultery, theft, sure. It's real clear.
I'm guessing if a person isn't going to church at all, there's probably worse sins they may be struggling with, and those might be disciplinable (is that a word?). If someone is blowing it, then they need help because only God's ways work. Counseling, and discipline only after long attempts to help them get it together.
God is building His Church.
Dave, I love your avatar. Congrats! May they be blessed. 
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 7:03:47 PM
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NotDoneYet
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And there are those who quit attending church after being rather active and not one person bothers to find out why, if that person needs help, prayer, etc....
So...in that case, they should come knocking at the door and demand one submits to some sort of "discipline"?
Nah...
_____________________________
Remember, normal is just a setting on the dryer!
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/3/2009 10:27:28 PM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Perhaps part of the disconnect is a church that gives no direction (aka issues orders), cannot really have a concept of being under their spiritual authority -- after all they require nothing. In which case being a member or not being a member can boil down to feeling welcome or not.
EXACTLY! I never considered my church to have any kind of 'authority' over me or anyone else. It was a place to seek fellowship and support. If you wanted to become a member great! If not, no one cared. You could attend Sunday services as a visitor for your entire life if you wished. The point of membership was to be able to serve the church in any capacity- choir, ushers, scripture readings, church board, outreach committee....etc You didn't NEED to do any of that if you didn't want to, but it was now open to you as a member.
quote:
What I was trying to illustrate was that "church membership" really shouldn't be a unilateral right you assert (and take offense if it is questioned)
That my church or pastor should 'question' my absence is not at issue. That my church or pastor should, in their eyes, 'judge' me or any other member unworthy of membership is another matter entirely.
quote:
Claiming the right, then never being present makes it impossible for those in leadership to fulfill their responsibilities (assuming you agree they have a responsibility to their flock? aka members?)
The only responsibilty I expect of my old pastor is to tend to those in need(flock or no). He knows I'll call if I need him. He also knows that when it becomes time to terminate my membership it will be my decision no one else's and knowing him he wouldn't have it any other way.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 12:05:22 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
EXACTLY! I never considered my church to have any kind of 'authority' over me or anyone else. So how exactly do you fulfill this New Testament COMMAND??
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 12:30:15 PM
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crankius
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Dave,
We are to be persuaded by our elders--the "obey" in that verse is Peitho, which means be persuaded by, to persuade, trust and confidence in.
The elders themselves do not have authority over me; rather, they have oversight. They watch over my soul as under shepherds of the Chief Shepherd.
They are to persuade me in the truth, and because I follow Christ and believe I must be obedient to the Word, I spiritually submit to my elders as we all mutually submit to one another in Christ.
Gentile leadership uses authority. Christ-like leadership uses servanthood.
1 Peter 5:1-5
The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
Matthew 20:25-28
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave--just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew 
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 12:32:49 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2604
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From: Northern IL
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Don't you get put on the "inactive" list? Either you want ot be a member or not.
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 12:44:10 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Dave,
We are to be persuaded by our elders--the "obey" in that verse is Peitho, which means be persuaded by, to persuade, trust and confidence in. Yes, but the word has a stronger meaning that just passive pursuasion. Check ou the other 50+ places it appears in the NT. Also please note that together with that word is hupeikō (submit) which with its root form hupo is used almost 230 times in the NT. It means to place ones self UNDER, to surrender, to take an inferior position.
So if you put 'obey' (allow your self to be pursuaded) and 'submit' (to place yourself under another) it cannot be taken as we just go on our own merry way. It means we give (not that they take) congregational leadership real authority (with teeth) in our lives.
This is not a suggestion. It is a command.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 12:46:03 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
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I wonder how much I have to not attend in order for me to need the discipline described.
'Cause even if I don't always make it to Sunday School and worship... or every choir rehearsal... or every evening Bible study class session, I usually do fulfill any obligations to substitute teach, to teach, to show up at a meeting and participate, and to show up to volunteer work times (that is, anything I have agreed to do or signed up for). Unless I'm sick.
Some years I've gotten to the point of overcommitting myself, and then participation in the bodylife of the church ends up being exhaustingly draining for me, rather than renewing. And really, that goes back to my own walk with the Lord --- if it's not strong, then I really don't have reserves to give anyone. (I'm more introverted than extraverted ---> I recharge and refuel by being alone; being with other people, while enjoyable, takes energy from me more than it gives me energy.) So... chastisement from leadership wouldn't help that.
I don't think church discipline is needed for nonattendance. It may be needed for some sin, of which not attending church is one of the symptoms/signs that some besetting sin exists in that person's life.
But not showing up in the building is different from not being part of the living church that is the body of Christ. Let's not confuse or conflate the two, please.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 12:52:18 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3755
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Dave,
We are to be persuaded by our elders--the "obey" in that verse is Peitho, which means be persuaded by, to persuade, trust and confidence in. Yes, but the word has a stronger meaning that just passive pursuasion. Check ou the other 50+ places it appears in the NT. Also please note that together with that word is hupeikō (submit) which with its root form hupo is used almost 230 times in the NT. It means to place ones self UNDER, to surrender, to take an inferior position.
So if you put 'obey' (allow your self to be pursuaded) and 'submit' (to place yourself under another) it cannot be taken as we just go on our own merry way. It means we give (not that they take) congregational leadership real authority (with teeth) in our lives.
This is not a suggestion. It is a command.
I object to the "inferior position" understanding of submit. We mutually submit to one another in Christ--being Biblically qualified as an elder does not make one superior to other sheep.
The “submit” in Hebrews 13:17 (Hupeiko) is to resist no longer, to give way. When they persuade me in the Word, I need to not resist that; I need to "give way".
Your idea of "real authority (with teeth) in our lives" does not fit at all with 1 Peter 5:1-5 or Matthew 20:25-28.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 1:52:45 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Your idea of "real authority (with teeth) in our lives" does not fit at all with 1 Peter 5:1-5 or Matthew 20:25-28.
Those passages say it is not for the leadership to lord it over someone, as in imposed submission from the outside.
Rather, it is up to us, the congregants to place ourselves in that position. They cannot impose it but we must seek it out.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 1:59:00 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
I object to the "inferior position" understanding of submit. We mutually submit to one another in Christ Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
Sounds like an inferior positon to me.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 2:04:02 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6357
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
I object to the "inferior position" understanding of submit. We mutually submit to one another in Christ Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
Sounds like an inferior positon to me.
With all due respect, would that verse not also apply to elders or are they except from one-anothering & regarding of others above themselves?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 2:50:10 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
With all due respect, would that verse not also apply to elders or are they except from one-anothering & regarding of others above themselves? It absolutely applies to elders, and deacons and pastors as well.
When a pastor or elder gets it in his head he is above all this you get control and overlordship issues.
I am a veteran of the neo-discipleship movement of the 70s and 80s. I know a thing or 2 about that.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 11/4/2009 2:56:51 PM >
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 3:33:53 PM
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Phulish
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Woof! Some old school "shepherding the sheep" stuff there but I'm sure it festered in most camps. If this is the churches' answer to the lack of relevancy and meaning in churches which is causing the recent exodus of christians and non-christians alike then say "adios".
As far as the article itself, double-woof. First of all, it's only saying not to give up on assembling together in order to admonish, exhort, encourage, etc. They make this innane attempt with verse 25 with 26 to say that not assembling is the said sin. 26 is talking about Jesus' sacrifice and sinning deliberately, not just about NOT assembling. A case could be made for him admonishing us to assemble so that we do not sin but pretty sure it's directly tied into the "day drawing near". Inotherwords, assemble because the day is drawing near, so that you don't sin and nullify Christ's sacrifice.
Even if I'm wrong, who is this person to dictate his chosen method of assembling to everyone else? Let's just call assembling and the reasons for assembling what the scripture says it is and provide ways for people to do that and let them choose where and how best to do it for their spiritual well-being. This is just a desparate attempt against recent migrations using outdated and faulty methods. Besides, I don't see church membership doing people much good as far as accountability goes. Pretty sure it's about keeping those old-school pockets lined.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 10:10:45 PM
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cwb
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Attendance discipline?
As the other poster said, that's for church leadership to address.
If membership stipulates attendance, then you attend, or you're off the role. And COMPLETELY welcome as a visitor anytime (that part probably won't matter tho').
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/4/2009 10:25:35 PM
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KaptZ
Posts: 172
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
EXACTLY! I never considered my church to have any kind of 'authority' over me or anyone else. So how exactly do you fulfill this New Testament COMMAND??
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.
I don't. Ours was/is a democratic congregation. Our ministers were spiritual 'advisors' more so than 'leaders'. We're all accountable to God for our souls, no one else.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 3:49:51 AM
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LedZeppelin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
First of all, the concept of "membership", as it exists today, is completely absent in the New Testament. Clearly people choose to become members of a church for a myriad of reasons (and I don't think there's any reason not to have membership) and, if attendance is part of the membership covenant, RC's solution is perfect - people who choose to no longer fulfill their side of the agreement should no longer be considered members.
Well I was in a church for almost a decade only to be told that I was "not a church member". Despite serving and giving all that time.
I've been out of church for about 6yrs now and don't miss it one bit. And if I ever did return to church and someone was keeping tabs on the regularity of my attendance, I'd be so giving them an earful it's not funny.
What sort of "church" is this where leaders are "disciplining" people for non attendance? This isn't church-this is a mind controlling cult.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 7:30:13 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveWquote:
I never considered my church to have any kind of 'authority' over me or anyone else. So how exactly do you fulfill this New Testament COMMAND??
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you. I don't. Ours was/is a democratic congregation. Our ministers were spiritual 'advisors' more so than 'leaders'. We're all accountable to God for our souls, no one else.
So how does having a "democratic" congregation (for which there is no biblical support for in either testament) exempt one before God from obeying a biblical NT command?
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 7:39:12 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LedZeppelin
What sort of "church" is this where leaders are "disciplining" people for non attendance? This isn't church-this is a mind controlling cult. Actually the biblical command is to "forsake not the ASSEMBLING of yourselves together." IT is not "forsake the attending of a church service." I would submit that most who attend regularly are not "assembled" and therefore are still in violation of this command.
You said you were vitally involved in your congregation for 10 years yet were not a "member." Each group can set up their membership in what ever way they want, and there is nothing unscriptural about that. Most congregations I have attended (fundamentalist, pentecostal, charismatic and Messianic) REQUIRE someone who serves in a regular way to go thru their membership process, for accountability issues. Again, there is nothing antibiblical in that.
You WERE "assembled" but seem to have withdrawn yourself from that. I encourage you to return to a congregation and get yourself plugged into it.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 2:09:22 PM
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Phulish
Posts: 93
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveWquote:
I never considered my church to have any kind of 'authority' over me or anyone else. So how exactly do you fulfill this New Testament COMMAND??
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you. I don't. Ours was/is a democratic congregation. Our ministers were spiritual 'advisors' more so than 'leaders'. We're all accountable to God for our souls, no one else.
So how does having a "democratic" congregation (for which there is no biblical support for in either testament) exempt one before God from obeying a biblical NT command?
Why would there be biblical support for a democratic church? There's no support for it in politics either. It's a few hundred year old fantasy that's been proped up with funny money.
As far as the church goes what are you saying is the proper government if indeed we are accountable to other people for our souls? Seems to me the real church was where they were all "in one accord". I don't think we should even pretend to know what this means. These "return to new testament church" movements sound lovely but come on. The church, as it's been handed to us, was founded in Rome not Palastine. What to do, what to do.
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