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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non Attendance
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 2:37:16 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
EXACTLY! I never considered my church to have any kind of 'authority' over me or anyone else. So how exactly do you fulfill this New Testament COMMAND??
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.
I don't. Ours was/is a democratic congregation.
Pretty clear answer and consistent with the rest of the dialogue.
How do you rationalize exempting yourself from this directive and establishing democracy as the organizing principle of the church you prefer?
btw - with a starting point that no one in the church has the right to disciple OR the responsibility to disciple any discussion of when/how/why is really moot. I'm not completely sure what to make of the link in the OP and I think that the debate about non-attending = sin is a red herring (albeit a red herring the author put front and center). Skimming back along the responses here it looks like many did not read the link before making conclusions.
Curious though... I'm sure we all know of people who come to a church, join it, then just drop off the radar without explanation. What, if anything, should be done? The OP link seems to suggest a fact based follow up with them with the presumption the absence is for valid reasons. The OP link notes that the goal is to get them to return OR find another place to attend regularly. The conclusion is that for those who persist in rarely showing up, they are - by definition - not members of the church. Seems logical. I would add that if the same person then begins to persistently SHOW UP... they should surely be welcomed back and eventually re-established as a member (which was the goal in the first place).
as always - this forum gets a range of views I find instructive.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 3:07:14 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychusquote:
ORIGINAL: Phulish
Why would there be biblical support for a democratic church?... The Apostles turned the selection process of the first deacons over to the Church. If that was good enough for the Twelve, it's good enough for this old Baptist boy. That was a nominating process, not a democratic vote. That is never even mentioned anywhere in scripture. All the posts - pastors, apostles, elders, deacons were all appointed by the leadership. In the case of those deacons, they had the congregants nominate and they approved/appointed them.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 3:17:44 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychusquote:
ORIGINAL: Phulish
Why would there be biblical support for a democratic church?... The Apostles turned the selection process of the first deacons over to the Church. If that was good enough for the Twelve, it's good enough for this old Baptist boy. That was a nominating process, not a democratic vote...In the case of those deacons, they had the congregants nominate and they approved/appointed them.
Is that your opinion or can you prove that the Apostles screened/approved the seven selected by the church? I don't recall an after selection screening for the precise men selected by the church.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 3:30:11 PM
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Eutychus
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Sorry, Dave, I do not see an approval process, only an annointing of the ones the congregation selected:
"Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."
The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.
And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.
To say it was any kind of nominating/screening requires reading something into the passage that just isn't there.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 5:25:22 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So how does having a "democratic" congregation (for which there is no biblical support for in either testament) exempt one before God from obeying a biblical NT command?
Command? To do what? Join a church?
There's only one church. 2 or 3 gathered in His name constitutes church. NT usage of the plural is the same as the singular. There's only one role on which a believer's name needs to be. That's NOT a local group's role.
Your personal convictions are for you and the spirit that gave them to you. Your convictions are not for others. ONLY others' convictions are for others.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/5/2009 6:56:53 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So how does having a "democratic" congregation (for which there is no biblical support for in either testament) exempt one before God from obeying a biblical NT command?
Command? To do what? Join a church?
There's only one church. 2 or 3 gathered in His name constitutes church. NT usage of the plural is the same as the singular. There's only one role on which a believer's name needs to be. That's NOT a local group's role.
Your personal convictions are for you and the spirit that gave them to you. Your convictions are not for others. ONLY others' convictions are for others.
The reference was to the command to be submit to your leaders (Hebrew 13) the line of questions began when I asked how someone could exercise authority over you if they never saw you because you never showed up. The assertion was that the church HAS no authority. The Hebrews reference would call that into question.
Your views seem to align with autonomy for all too. I disagree (strongly) and by your rules you need to keep quiet about that... :) but by my rules I can tell you to be careful.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 1:54:39 PM
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terryjohn
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By all means shut the gate after the horse has bolted. Why cancel membership when the member themselves have effectively done that?
I know in China when a employee quits the managers fire him to save face.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 3:57:55 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
The reference was to the command to be submit to your leaders (Hebrew 13) the line of questions began when I asked how someone could exercise authority over you if they never saw you because you never showed up. The assertion was that the church HAS no authority. The Hebrews reference would call that into question.
Your views seem to align with autonomy for all too. I disagree (strongly) and by your rules you need to keep quiet about that... :) but by my rules I can tell you to be careful.
Submit to your leaders? A Christian has NO leader, apart from the Holy Spirit WITHIN. I hope that's the end of THAT discussion. I gather this IS what you are saying (in red)?
I think (as does Scofield), that Hebrews was written to the Jews who had accepted Christ, and had nothing to do with Gentiles' church. I imagine that their manner of 'church' (of worship of Christ) had leadership similar to synagogue.
My rules? I have rules only for myself; not for you. I try to base my rules in the Word. Why do I need to keep quiet about that? Who are you? And what are your rules (about your church/attendance/spiritual authority)? Please be very succinct here...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 4:09:56 PM
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doinkdom
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Hebrews 13:7 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Seems pretty straight forward to me....even in context.
As for the particular leadership in question...if you don't or can't support them, then withdraw. I know this is a blog and appears to be just one small body of believers, but if that body agrees to this or voted in those who are walking this out, then it really shouldn't be an issue.
I know it makes for good conversation and all.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 4:12:12 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
Submit to your leaders? A Christian has NO leader, apart from the Holy Spirit WITHIN
What??? Do you read your bible?
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 5:21:05 PM
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stampinlady
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So who are "submitting" to in all the scriputre that mention it?
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 5:26:13 PM
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doinkdom
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We're not talking about what man says....we're referring to what scripture says, in context, regarding this particular topic.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 5:40:45 PM
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cwb
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Bible says submit to employer, those who govern us, to spouse, maybe some others.
The church has one leader. Jesus. Your too, I'm hoping. All members are equal, since there's no heirarchy. Membership is not in the Bible. Denominantions are not in the Bible.
Church is 2 or 3 gathered in his name. ALL are equal.
I'm kind of wondering still who your leader is?
quote:
Who's your leader?
I'm hoping I know already who it is...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 5:49:41 PM
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cwb
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I just looked up the verse written to the Hebrew church:
quote:
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
There is a condition of their 'rule' over the Hebrew church: they must have spoken the word of God.
There are no conditions to Jesus' rule.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 8:03:18 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Your views seem to align with autonomy for all too. I disagree (strongly) and by your rules you need to keep quiet about that... :) but by my rules I can tell you to be careful.
Submit to your leaders? A Christian has NO leader, apart from the Holy Spirit WITHIN. I hope that's the end of THAT discussion.
I think (as does Scofield), that Hebrews was written to the Jews who had accepted Christ, and had nothing to do with Gentiles' church.
My rules? I have rules only for myself; not for you. I try to base my rules in the Word. Why do I need to keep quiet about that? Who are you? And what are your rules (about your church/attendance/spiritual authority)? Please be very succinct here...
Elders are defined in Timothy and Titus as church leaders, so no - it's not the end of the discussion unless you figure that that part of the cannon has been voided too. I'd never heard that Hebrews only applied to Jewish Christians and Gentiles were excluded, interesting.
wrt to "rules"... yep, you have constructed a system where you have the rules for you and it would be wrong for your to tell me I'm wrong (it's what you said, no me). Did I get it right? I have no such rule for myself - so... you are wrong.
The way I read the Bible I should encourage (other people SHOULD attend church regularly) I should admonish (it's wrong to sit separate from the body and pretend no one could have valid authority over you) and rebuke (setting yourself up as an island is wrong, sorry).
Succinctly, the Bible describes things we do TOGETHER as groups (do a word study on "one another") the Bible calls church "the household of God" and the Bible sets up (as a GIFT to us) leadership within the structure (elders). To be in the household BE PRESENT. To gain the benefit of leadership SUBMIT TO IT.
A good working definition of submission is "adopting an attitude of voluntary cooperation". Succinct enough?
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 9:15:22 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Elders are defined in Timothy and Titus as church leaders, so no - it's not the end of the discussion unless you figure that that part of the cannon has been voided too. I'd never heard that Hebrews only applied to Jewish Christians and Gentiles were excluded, interesting.
wrt to "rules"... yep, you have constructed a system where you have the rules for you and it would be wrong for your to tell me I'm wrong (it's what you said, no me). Did I get it right? I have no such rule for myself - so... you are wrong.
The way I read the Bible I should encourage (other people SHOULD attend church regularly) I should admonish (it's wrong to sit separate from the body and pretend no one could have valid authority over you) and rebuke (setting yourself up as an island is wrong, sorry).
Succinctly, the Bible describes things we do TOGETHER as groups (do a word study on "one another") the Bible calls church "the household of God" and the Bible sets up (as a GIFT to us) leadership within the structure (elders). To be in the household BE PRESENT. To gain the benefit of leadership SUBMIT TO IT.
A good working definition of submission is "adopting an attitude of voluntary cooperation". Succinct enough?
No, it's not really clear what you're saying at all.
Church is 2 or 3 gathered in his name. One leader - Jesus - the only authority.
No membership role, nothing more. To HAVE them - a building, a roster, a pastor, rules, outreach, etc., is fine nothing wrong with that. I do it. And keep 1 leader. Guess who???
Your interpretations/convictions are for you; none other. Verses, with Hebrew/Greek definitions are fine to share. 
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 9:49:53 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
No, it's not really clear what you're saying at all.
Church is 2 or 3 gathered in his name. One leader - Jesus - the only authority.
Your interpretations/convictions are for you; none other.
I guess you fail to see the fallacy in your position. You are trying to impose on me your conviction that there are no church leaders and no such thing as men having authority in the church. It's a self censuring doctrine - if you believe this, then what is the point of telling anyone else? Clearly you refuse to accept the authority of any other for yourself. It a self-evident contradiction that you would attempt to instruct others to adopt your beliefs. Your belief is that no one has a right to instruct another or act as an authority for another.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 11:32:06 PM
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mosess8
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Who made the decision that not regularly attending church is a sin? Is that biblical. I dont mean "implied somewhere or another". I mean directly stated.
Paul said "do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together. He did not say how often. Also, I would lean toward thinking that he was addressing a heart issue as in a dislike for the body of Christ, rather than some attendance list.
Some do not come to church, while others FORSAKE the assmbly. There is a huge difference.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/6/2009 11:35:08 PM
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mosess8
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Unless you find out that you are wrong. Then apologize for holding the false conviction and get it right.
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/8/2009 1:08:38 PM
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DaveW
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CWB, In the books of Titus and Timothy, and in Acts, we see elders being appointed and required to meet certain moral and ethical criteria. Hebrews 13.7 says they are to give an account before God for YOUR obedience or disobedience; possibly in the same way Abraham had to give account for his wife Sarah's laughing at God's promise to give them a son:
Gen 18.10 The LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah.
12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?"
13 The LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?'
14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."
Who are those that give an account for you?
< Message edited by DaveW -- 11/8/2009 1:14:58 PM >
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Church Discipline for Persistent and Willful Non At... - 11/9/2009 10:48:48 AM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Church is 2 or 3 gathered in his name. One leader - Jesus - the only authority.
Your interpretations/convictions are for you; none other.
I guess you fail to see the fallacy in your position...
No, I impose my convictions on none. You didn't read well.
You can have all the leaders you wish. I have one. I can learn from others, and they are not my leader.
And no, I do not refuse authority of any other. I accept the authority of Jesus. Missed that one huh?
And I did not say no one has a right to instruct another. You didn't read well. Again.
Who IS your leader? How is your spiritual hierarchy? Is it comprised of specific people, or is it a structure? How many levels...
NEVER apologize for them.
quote:
... (setting yourself up as an island is wrong, sorry).
...
I read as carefully as I could "your interpretation is for you; none other" I think that's quite clear, though since you see value in sharing your interpretations with me I suspect you don't fully believe this yourself.
I did not miss your acknowledging Jesus as your only leader, to the exclusion of anyone else. That's a nice sounding idea, but not Biblical. How do you reconcile your position with Jesus direction (to a group of men) to go make disciples? How did you exempt yourself?
I can readily identify three men who are leading me Jeff, Barry and Will. In turn they are also accountable to others. For Jeff there are elders recognized in the local body. For Barry, he has submit himself to several men who operate nationally. Will is a small group leader who is led by Hugh and in turn by Barry. Though in NO case are any of these people a layer between myself and our common Lord. And, although there is an organization in place it operates more as a mesh than a hierarchy. I could explain in more detail how this works, but it is not burdensome or harsh at all.
Back to the OP. Do you agree we are called to "make disciples"? Do you understand that discipleship involves discipline? Is there ANY circumstance where you would consider discipline to be acceptable? Is it your view that Jesus told his disciples to make disciples, but once that got rolling he intended for everyone to step aside and let him lead believers directly?
A few in this thread prior to cwb and also cwb seem to assert that there is no valid discipleship between people on earth (eg Jesus leads me and what I get from Him is for ME only) -- which would make the question of how/why to discipline moot.
Look at where that ends up? Using those principles as a basis someone can claim that they are a member (joined, part of, playing their role in the body of Christ, functioning in the household of God) in a church where they do not even show up! And the idea of authority is diminished to the point that it's not only not a concern for a pastor to know where people are, but impolite to ask and hold them to account?
(PS - the "sorry" I added was not an apology for my beliefs but intended to express a regret that such a warning was needed, and regrets in my expectation it would be fall on deaf ears. I do find it ironic that you advise me to be more assertive in my beliefs -- the beliefs that are for no one but myself...)
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