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frustrated! - 11/5/2009 4:11:54 PM
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yustme
Posts: 113
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I have stopped getting on these forums because just about everyone,if not everyone was born during the 60's and has no idea what I'm talking about when I refer to music as being Spiritually uplifting or an emotional rush.
I hear over & over again the "style" of music Is up to each ones preferance.I never see on any of these threads what's pleasing to the HS.To be honest, In my flesh,I really enjoy the rock-n-roll beat,but the Spirit within me says no.
There is noone who understands the difference between what WE like and what invites the HS.And that really saddens me.
It has been said,"History repeats itself".I hope it does.
I'm sure I'll get a lot of sarcassum for this,but that's ok,guess I just needed to vent.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/5/2009 4:22:50 PM
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Eutychus
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I grew up in the 60s but I've learned that no style of music draws the Holy Spirit. What seems uplifting and spiritual to you or I was once radical and considered unspiritual by old foggies like us when it first came out.
If I'm wrong, show me a passage in the NT that states any kind of music draws God the Holy Spirit. That sounds like some kind of magic to me.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: frustrated! - 11/5/2009 4:25:28 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1397
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quote:
I never see on any of these threads what's pleasing to the HS.To be honest, In my flesh,I really enjoy the rock-n-roll beat,but the Spirit within me says no.
Since Scripture is silent on the subject of music, I would submit that as long as the music is sung to Him, in His name, and gives Him all the praise, honor, and glory, then style ceases to be an issue.
At the end of the day, I am convinced that even our most lavish musical expressions are nothing but cacophonous noise when compared to the sounds of heaven.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: frustrated! - 11/5/2009 4:38:13 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6323
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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I believe the Jewish people in the days of old had stringed instruments and percussion instruments. THey also sung and twirled around like something was wrong with them. God seemed to be pleased with their worship and adoration. I have no problem with offering up Southern Gospel, a little contemparary Gospel, a little Hymnal Gospel, a little Black Gospel, Do we seem to have a consistent thing going on here. I think it's the Gospel part. Ummmmm Yeah. I will keep on singing.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: frustrated! - 11/5/2009 8:23:52 PM
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Kath
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As this topic is against the rules for the SG folder, it is now moved from Southern Gospel to the Music folder.
< Message edited by Kath -- 11/5/2009 8:31:14 PM >
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RE: frustrated! - 11/6/2009 7:16:40 AM
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pastorjohn11776
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Let's not forget that, while the Holy Spirit can never deviate from what the Word of God says about Him and His ministry, there is also nothing that says He has to work the same way in everybody's life. There are different ways that people offer their praises to the Lord, and what may be a "worship experience" (a.k.a. type of music) to one person may be a put-off to another. The problem is when we get dogmatic about areas that go beyond the Scriptures and try to make "our" ways or styles the standard for everyone.
Many people through the years have praised the Lord and sensed His presence with the singing of the old hymns. Yet a little study in the history of them shows that often there was conflict over these same hymns when they were new. Fanny Crosby was accused of using a worldly or bar-room style -- even though her hymns are well accepted even in strict, fundamentalist circles today. And let's not forget the old classic, "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" used a melody from the German pubs of the day -- a drinking song! Yet look how that hymn has been used to glorify God for several centuries since.
By the same token, you can take a "Christian" song and put secular lyrics to it and -- voila -- it isn't a Christian song anymore. Does anyone remember the song "The House of the Rising Sun" about a house of prostitution -- sometimes sung to the tune of "Amazing Grace"? There was nothing spiritual about that song.
Someone has stated -- and correctly so -- that there is no such thing as "Christian music" -- there are only Christian lyrics. There is no style of music that is unique to Christians or gospel music. But when you look at the variety today -- and it ranges from Bach to Rock and every shade in between -- when God is glorified, when God is praised, it becomes "Christian" and blesses us in the process.
The bottom line is, every one of us has to settle in our minds and hearts what style or styles of music best help us to draw near to God and honor Him in our hearts. If for some reason (past teaching, past experience, personal taste, etc.) some particular "style" doesn't help you worhsip God, then don't use it -- but don't limit how God may use that in the life of the next person.
< Message edited by pastorjohn11776 -- 11/6/2009 7:28:16 AM >
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RE: frustrated! - 11/6/2009 7:23:55 AM
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DaveW
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My dad (now 81 years young) insists that there is only one style of music acceptable to God - and he defines that as classic hymns and Southern Gospel since it is musically close ( the 4 part harmony).
He likes big band jazz, western swing and country but does not think they are acceptable for worship music.
So I told him that if he was correct in saying that God only likes one kind of music, it would have to be the music of Jesus' childhood. That music (as far as musicologists can ascertain) would be primarily vocal, minor key melody, no harmony (meaning all voices and instruments double the melody) and the lyrics would be in Hebrew and Aramaic, and in a different chromatic scale which is about as far from his precious Southern Gospel as you can get.
IOW, the music form itself is totally neutral.
Edited to add:
There have been a few times when in prayer or quiet worship that I have heard music that I take to be the music of heaven. What style was it? Every style you have ever heard plus a thousand more beyond that, all at the same time. What a glorious blend!
< Message edited by DaveW -- 11/6/2009 7:32:30 AM >
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: frustrated! - 11/6/2009 9:49:26 AM
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uncabeeil
Posts: 4942
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From: Joisey. Got a problem wit dat?
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It's not the words. It's not the melody. It's the heart. Plain and simple.
_____________________________
"It don't do to fight with God cuz He always wins.
He bloodies your nose and then gives you a ride home on his bike"
Rich Mullins
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RE: frustrated! - 11/7/2009 11:15:39 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1397
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Yes, it is all about the heart. I remember when my kids were very small, they knew daddy did music for a living, so occasionally they would perform songs for me. They were usually out of tune, out of rhythm, basically ear bleeding painful to listen to, but you know what? It warmed this daddy's heart because my children were offering this as a gift to me.
Likewise with our heavenly Father. For any of us to assume that any music created here on earth can hold a candle to the sounds of heaven is beyond arrogant. I think God is quite amused with our pathetic attempts at creating music that would actually impress Him, but I also believe He is touched when His children offer it up as a gift borne out of our love for Him.
Check out the lyrics to Phillips, Craig & Dean's "Favorite Song Of All"...it illustrates my point quite well....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: frustrated! - 11/7/2009 11:40:40 AM
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yustme
Posts: 113
Joined: 5/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Yes, it is all about the heart. I remember when my kids were very small, they knew daddy did music for a living, so occasionally they would perform songs for me. They were usually out of tune, out of rhythm, basically ear bleeding painful to listen to, but you know what? It warmed this daddy's heart because my children were offering this as a gift to me.
Likewise with our heavenly Father. For any of us to assume that any music created here on earth can hold a candle to the sounds of heaven is beyond arrogant. I think God is quite amused with our pathetic attempts at creating music that would actually impress Him, but I also believe He is touched when His children offer it up as a gift borne out of our love for Him.
Check out the lyrics to Phillips, Craig & Dean's "Favorite Song Of All"...it illustrates my point quite well....
I couldn't agree with you more.We have never heard,nor will we ever hear the kind of music here on earth that we will hear in Heaven.And that's including SG.There is no style hear on earth that can begin to match the beauty of music in Heaven.And once again that's including SG.
I hope you were not reffering to me as arrogant.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/7/2009 1:28:08 PM
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yustme
Posts: 113
Joined: 5/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pastorjohn11776
Let's not forget that, while the Holy Spirit can never deviate from what the Word of God says about Him and His ministry, there is also nothing that says He has to work the same way in everybody's life. There are different ways that people offer their praises to the Lord, and what may be a "worship experience" (a.k.a. type of music) to one person may be a put-off to another. The problem is when we get dogmatic about areas that go beyond the Scriptures and try to make "our" ways or styles the standard for everyone.
Many people through the years have praised the Lord and sensed His presence with the singing of the old hymns. Yet a little study in the history of them shows that often there was conflict over these same hymns when they were new. Fanny Crosby was accused of using a worldly or bar-room style -- even though her hymns are well accepted even in strict, fundamentalist circles today. And let's not forget the old classic, "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" used a melody from the German pubs of the day -- a drinking song! Yet look how that hymn has been used to glorify God for several centuries since.
By the same token, you can take a "Christian" song and put secular lyrics to it and -- voila -- it isn't a Christian song anymore. Does anyone remember the song "The House of the Rising Sun" about a house of prostitution -- sometimes sung to the tune of "Amazing Grace"? There was nothing spiritual about that song.
Someone has stated -- and correctly so -- that there is no such thing as "Christian music" -- there are only Christian lyrics. There is no style of music that is unique to Christians or gospel music. But when you look at the variety today -- and it ranges from Bach to Rock and every shade in between -- when God is glorified, when God is praised, it becomes "Christian" and blesses us in the process.
The bottom line is, every one of us has to settle in our minds and hearts what style or styles of music best help us to draw near to God and honor Him in our hearts. If for some reason (past teaching, past experience, personal taste, etc.) some particular "style" doesn't help you worhsip God, then don't use it -- but don't limit how God may use that in the life of the next person.
Thank you for your post.I found some encouragement in it.
As far as Fanny Crosby is concerned,I have the story of her life.As I'm sure you well know,she was blind.This is one of her comments."Sometimes I need to reject the music proposed for my songs,because the musicians misunderstand,they think that the Fanny Crosby who once wrote for the people in the salons has merely changed the lyrics.Oh my no,the church must never sing it's songs to the melodies of the world."In todays world,there is no way of knowing if the song is a christian song or a secular song just by listening to the music.This is my problem with it.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/7/2009 9:20:26 PM
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uncabeeil
Posts: 4942
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Joisey. Got a problem wit dat?
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And 50 years from now people will be saying the same thing about the songs from this era that they are still singing. And so on, and so on, etc. If you feel it's wrong to listen to anything then don't listen. I just hope you aren't one of those people who condemn everyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint.
Personally, I can be just as moved by a hundred year old hymn as I can by Chris Tomlin and the African Children's Choir singing about God's love from a cd released this year. Like I said, it's in where the heart is.
_____________________________
"It don't do to fight with God cuz He always wins.
He bloodies your nose and then gives you a ride home on his bike"
Rich Mullins
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RE: frustrated! - 11/8/2009 11:05:45 PM
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WillingSpirit
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/18/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I have stopped getting on these forums because just about everyone,if not everyone was born during the 60's and has no idea what I'm talking about when I refer to music as being Spiritually uplifting or an emotional rush.
I know what Spiritually uplifting music is, though I'm pretty shure you wouldn't like some of the music that Spiritually uplifts me.And I was born in the 70's.
As far as southern gospel goes, that entire style of music wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the so called "music of the world".The original southern gospel sound was a combination of barbershop quartet harmonies (a predominately secular style) with the gospel hymn (the same kind of music as Fanny Crosby).The gospel hymn style that predated southern gospel can be traced back to William Bradbury, the same guy who wrote Jesus Loves Me.He got some of his musical inspiration from the old camp meeting songs, but he was also heavily influenced by the secular parlor music of Stephen Foster.So this is some of the basis for the southern gospel sound we have today.
Some people who listen to southern gospel think the music doesn't sound "worldly" and has no secular basis, thus God approves of it.But that simply isn't the truth.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/8/2009 11:37:14 PM
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kingsman
Posts: 534
Joined: 8/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I have stopped getting on these forums because just about everyone,if not everyone was born during the 60's and has no idea what I'm talking about when I refer to music as being Spiritually uplifting or an emotional rush.
Take a page from Signature Sound and listen to them sing Ernie Haase's great song.
He Made A Change - Ernie Haase & Signature Sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBEr9Bwrvd0
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RE: frustrated! - 11/11/2009 4:45:44 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1397
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
In todays world,there is no way of knowing if the song is a christian song or a secular song just by listening to the music.This is my problem with it.
That would be the case in any time, not just today. There just simply no way to pin a certain instruimental style as "Christian" or "secular". There is nothing about any musical note or chord that makes it "Christian".
quote:
I hope you were not reffering to me as arrogant.
No, of course not. But I have literally had people tell me with complete conviction that the music in heaven will be hymns, or Southern Gospel, or Praise & Worship, or Christian rock......and it always sounds equally asinine.
I'm just saying that for ANYBODY to assume that God is actually impressed by our musical "flailings" would be arrogant.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: frustrated! - 11/19/2009 12:56:08 AM
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ComfortablyNumb
Posts: 77
Joined: 11/17/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pastorjohn11776
Let's not forget that, while the Holy Spirit can never deviate from what the Word of God says about Him and His ministry, there is also nothing that says He has to work the same way in everybody's life. There are different ways that people offer their praises to the Lord, and what may be a "worship experience" (a.k.a. type of music) to one person may be a put-off to another. The problem is when we get dogmatic about areas that go beyond the Scriptures and try to make "our" ways or styles the standard for everyone.
Many people through the years have praised the Lord and sensed His presence with the singing of the old hymns. Yet a little study in the history of them shows that often there was conflict over these same hymns when they were new. Fanny Crosby was accused of using a worldly or bar-room style -- even though her hymns are well accepted even in strict, fundamentalist circles today. And let's not forget the old classic, "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" used a melody from the German pubs of the day -- a drinking song! Yet look how that hymn has been used to glorify God for several centuries since.
By the same token, you can take a "Christian" song and put secular lyrics to it and -- voila -- it isn't a Christian song anymore. Does anyone remember the song "The House of the Rising Sun" about a house of prostitution -- sometimes sung to the tune of "Amazing Grace"? There was nothing spiritual about that song.
Someone has stated -- and correctly so -- that there is no such thing as "Christian music" -- there are only Christian lyrics. There is no style of music that is unique to Christians or gospel music. But when you look at the variety today -- and it ranges from Bach to Rock and every shade in between -- when God is glorified, when God is praised, it becomes "Christian" and blesses us in the process.
The bottom line is, every one of us has to settle in our minds and hearts what style or styles of music best help us to draw near to God and honor Him in our hearts. If for some reason (past teaching, past experience, personal taste, etc.) some particular "style" doesn't help you worhsip God, then don't use it -- but don't limit how God may use that in the life of the next person.
I So Totally Agree!!!!!
_____________________________
"I_ _ _ _ _ _ have become ComfortablyNumb."
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RE: frustrated! - 11/19/2009 7:46:09 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3803
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I couldn't agree with you more.We have never heard,nor will we ever hear the kind of music here on earth that we will hear in Heaven.And that's including SG.There is no style hear on earth that can begin to match the beauty of music in Heaven.And once again that's including SG. Did you read what I wrote a couple posts before this?quote:
There have been a few times when in prayer or quiet worship that I have heard music that I take to be the music of heaven. What style was it? Every style you have ever heard plus a thousand more beyond that, all at the same time. What a glorious blend!
Don't say no one has heard it. I have and I know others who have as well.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: frustrated! - 11/20/2009 11:04:10 AM
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yustme
Posts: 113
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WillingSpirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I have stopped getting on these forums because just about everyone,if not everyone was born during the 60's and has no idea what I'm talking about when I refer to music as being Spiritually uplifting or an emotional rush.
I know what Spiritually uplifting music is, though I'm pretty shure you wouldn't like some of the music that Spiritually uplifts me.And I was born in the 70's.
As far as southern gospel goes, that entire style of music wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the so called "music of the world".The original southern gospel sound was a combination of barbershop quartet harmonies (a predominately secular style) with the gospel hymn (the same kind of music as Fanny Crosby).The gospel hymn style that predated southern gospel can be traced back to William Bradbury, the same guy who wrote Jesus Loves Me.He got some of his musical inspiration from the old camp meeting songs, but he was also heavily influenced by the secular parlor music of Stephen Foster.So this is some of the basis for the southern gospel sound we have today.
Some people who listen to southern gospel think the music doesn't sound "worldly" and has no secular basis, thus God approves of it.But that simply isn't the truth.
I don't know where you got your information from,but I was born in the early 40's and i know what gospel music was and it didn't come from any barber shop music or any other type music.Even back when my great grandmother was living,I can remember her talking about the revivals they went to and the people that found Christ through the singing.They talked about how the song wrighters prayed for just the right notes in writing a song.I know this to be true,because even today their are song wrighters who pray for God to give them the notes in writing a song.Example;Rodney Griffin of Greater Vision writes the songs they sing.Gerald Wolf of Greater Vision has often said how Rodney,in writing a song,woulg go to the back of the buss to be alone and pray for the HS to give him the notes and music that would please Him and touch the hearts and souls of people.And this is the way they got their music clear back and beyond the 1700's.I'm sure some of the music was taken from the secular world.But I can garantee you Fanny Crosley's was not.
I'm in the process of looking up some scripture to post.Please be patient with me.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/20/2009 12:28:23 PM
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B-Swan
Posts: 30
Joined: 7/3/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
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I've been reading this thread but holding off from commenting, but can't any longer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I have stopped getting on these forums because just about everyone,if not everyone was born during the 60's
Born in 1978 
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
and has no idea what I'm talking about when I refer to music as being Spiritually uplifting or an emotional rush.
So you know every moment of my life and that I've never been Spiritually uplifted by music?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I hear over & over again the "style" of music Is up to each ones preferance.I never see on any of these threads what's pleasing to the HS.To be honest, In my flesh,I really enjoy the rock-n-roll beat,but the Spirit within me says no.
There is noone who understands the difference between what WE like and what invites the HS.And that really saddens me.
That's fine for you...but don't presume to tell me that the Holy Spirit has never used today's music and songs to inspire me, help me, uplift me, etc. unless you have been with me for every song I've ever listened to or sung.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
It has been said,"History repeats itself".I hope it does.
Not sure what you're inferring should happen due to "history".
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
We have never heard,nor will we ever hear the kind of music here on earth that we will hear in Heaven.And that's including SG.There is no style hear on earth that can begin to match the beauty of music in Heaven.And once again that's including SG.
I agree with you here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
In todays world,there is no way of knowing if the song is a christian song or a secular song just by listening to the music.This is my problem with it.
Let me throw this out for thought....someone else already said it's not the music style that makes a song Christian or not, it's the words. So what if, by some chance, people who listen only to secular bands were suggested a Christian band that has the same style music...and suppose when they heard the Christian words, it makes them think about God when they never did before.
Would you consider that as a possibility, or is all music today just inherently empty and evil?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
...I know what gospel music was and it didn't come from any barber shop music or any other type music.
That's correct...because gospel music has been around since God first put a song in someone's heart and it came out their mouth. Gospel music is not a style...it's music that proclaims and celebrates the Good News. That happened WAY before the 1940's. So to say "...I know what gospel music was..." insinuates to me that you believe there has been no music proclaiming or celebrating the Good News since the 40's. Is this true?
If so, go tell all the people Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W Smith, etc ministered to with uplifting music that they don't know what gospel music is and that they have never been Spiritually uplifted from it. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I know this to be true,because even today their are song wrighters who pray for God to give them the notes in writing a song.
So you believe Christian singers/songwriters today pray for God to give them the notes and words for their songs? If they are truly doing this, and God gives it to them in a rock and roll style, how can that not be Spiritually uplifting to someone? You seem contradictory here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
guess I just needed to vent.
That's fine...but there's a difference in venting about how you don't like today's music styles (that are being used for God), and insinuating that people today have never been Spiritually uplifted through said music.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/20/2009 5:57:27 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1397
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know where you got your information from,but I was born in the early 40's and i know what gospel music was and it didn't come from any barber shop music or any other type music.
Actually, DaveW was dead on with regard to 20th century gospel music's origins.....at least that which became today's southern gospel.
quote:
They talked about how the song wrighters prayed for just the right notes in writing a song.I know this to be true,because even today their are song wrighters who pray for God to give them the notes in writing a song
Call me crazy, but when I look at any piano keyboard it would appear that God has already given us all the notes we need to praise Him with music. Here we reach the point where we begin talking about whether certain notes or chords are inherently evil or displeasing to God. To which I always offer the challenge: please show me a secular C on a piano keyboard, and then show me a Christian C.
Yustme, I've debated with you in enough similar threads, but I'm still never quite sure where you're going with this. I can only tell you as a songwriter myself, I really pray over and put my lyrics through a ringer when writing a song. Why? Because I want it to bring glory and honor to God. That is the reason my songs exist. As for style, that usually grows out of the song as it is written. All I can say is that I have never been convicted on the subject of style. It goes back to what I said earlier about even the most beautiful music we make on earth is but cacophonous noise to our perfect Heavenly Father....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: frustrated! - 11/20/2009 7:02:37 PM
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WillingSpirit
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/18/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I don't know where you got your information from,but I was born in the early 40's and i know what gospel music was and it didn't come from any barber shop music or any other type music.
Actually, DaveW was dead on with regard to 20th century gospel music's origins.....at least that which became today's southern gospel.
That was me who talked about that, but I don't mind being confused with DaveW.
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RE: frustrated! - 11/20/2009 9:17:07 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1397
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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Oops! Sorry, my mind isn't what it used to be....must be all that rock n' roll music.... 
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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