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Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 12:24:15 AM
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PitaKat
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Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
I'm having difficulty with this one. To me it reads "This guy is a trouble-maker, and to us that is punishable by death". Where is the forgiveness? the compassion? The love of his parents? He's rebellious (as ALL young people are at one time or another), and his parents hand him over to the elders to be stoned? I don't understand where God's heart is in this verse...
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 12:33:49 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I'm having difficulty with this one. To me it reads "This guy is a trouble-maker, and to us that is punishable by death". Where is the forgiveness? the compassion? The love of his parents? He's rebellious (as ALL young people are at one time or another), and his parents hand him over to the elders to be stoned? I don't understand where God's heart is in this verse...
This was probably not a matter of one-time, or a short-lived, rebellious attitude. Rather, it was a young person who demonstrated continual rebellious attitudes despite correction.
You have to also take into account that God never puts the needs of the one ahead of the needs of the many. Israel, as a people, had repeated trouble with rebellion, so if someone demonstrated that they were going to lead the people around them into rebellion, then it was a problem that needed removal. If the youth chose to not respond to correction, then death was the only way to assure that removal.
This is not rebellion in the sense of the typical "rebellious teenager" we think of today, in the 21st century West. It meant something quite different for the culture of the time.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 12:37:56 AM
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PitaKat
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Ok, so it wouldn't be a one-time rebellion, and he could possibly be hurting his community with his rebellion. But I always thought that the death penalty was for murder only? That makes sense to me, as you take someone's life away why should you be allowed to live?
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 12:40:25 AM
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PitaKat
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Had another thought, does John 8:7 negate Deuteronomy 21:18-21?
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 1:19:19 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
But I always thought that the death penalty was for murder only? That makes sense to me, as you take someone's life away why should you be allowed to live?
Again, it has to do with the greater good. God would kill His people in instances of sustained rebellion - that's what caused the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, remember.
God wouldn't let this law be applied in instances where the rebellion was effectively harmless - say, wearing a new fashion or enjoying music that's too loud. It was likely an instance where the rebellion was genuinely moral - the youth advocating following other gods, or loose morals, which would cause God's judgment to come onto all the people who followed in the rebellion.
quote:
Had another thought, does John 8:7 negate Deuteronomy 21:18-21?
Two things to consider.
1, and this is outside the scope of this thread - the story of the woman caught in adultery may not be strictly biblical. Many early manuscripts do not have it. So, that's something to consider.
2, Jesus changed the way a lot of laws were applied. Doing work on the Sabbath used to be punishable by death, but Jesus and His disciples clearly did work on the Sabbath. So, when reading things in the Old Testament, remember that they may not literally apply to us today.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 1:45:20 AM
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Bluethread
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We need to remember the due process requirements of HaTorah. These parents are required to go in front of the entire community and admit that they are unable to provide for their family and undergo strict cross examination. In a biblical family provision is more than money. Paul tells us the Scriptural and rabbinic prospective one this. (1Ti 5:8) "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." This is not islam. There is no such thing as an honor killing. Admitting this carries a stigma and lost of status in the community. Also, I don't know if you have followed the capital punishment treads, but any Cohen HaGadol(High Priest) who permitted more than two death penalties in his time of service was considered a bloody cohen.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 1:57:19 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Two things to consider.
1, and this is outside the scope of this thread - the story of the woman caught in adultery may not be strictly biblical. Many early manuscripts do not have it. So, that's something to consider.
2, Jesus changed the way a lot of laws were applied. Doing work on the Sabbath used to be punishable by death, but Jesus and His disciples clearly did work on the Sabbath. So, when reading things in the Old Testament, remember that they may not literally apply to us today.
As you pointed out in point one, not everyone agrees on how the actions of Yeshua have been recorded or interpreted. Your interpretation of what Yeshua did on Shabbat and his relationship with HaTorah are not universally accepted, even among "mainline christians". Life in Israel prior to the incarnation, Sacrifice, ressurrection, assention, or whatever demarkation you might choose, was much more gracious than many realize. In fact, one of the things Adonai found fault with was that Israel did not understand His grace, but often "graciously" ignored things that are quite evil, which is not a proper characteristic of Adonai's grace.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 2:43:11 AM
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agapist
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There were many causes for the death penalty in the OT standards. There were approximately forty causes for death.
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 6:05:14 AM
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cposey
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This is an example of exactly why we need Jesus so bad. Sin always leads to death, whether it be in this life or afterward. Some sin warranted a physical and soulful death. While other sins only a soulful death. Jesus came to fulfill the law. God's heart on this matter was that if a child who became rebellious against his parent's to the point where they couldn't handle it anymore, was taken before others. These people were almost like a judge and jury. The death penalty(stoning) was an extreme decision if nothing else could be done. Probably if in the face of death, the child did not show a repentant heart and then would face death. In all reality it is no different today. If someone is rebellious against God, and is then presented with the fact that if they don't turn their heart to God and repent of their sins, their soul will ultimately die on judgement day. I guess from God's heart on the matter if your life is one of rebellion than your life is not one after God's own heart. You have judged yourself and will therefore lead to death whether it be in this life or afterward
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/6/2009 4:02:34 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
God's heart on this matter was that if a child who became rebellious against his parent's to the point where they couldn't handle it anymore, was taken before others.
I don't know whether you didn't see my post or you just don't believe me. However, this is not islam, HaTorah does not permitted parents to perform "honor killings". The child must be taken before a judge and the community for judgement to be rendered by the community, which must also take part in the execution. That is why such executions were extremely rare.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/6/2009 4:09:02 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/7/2009 6:15:31 PM
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PitaKat
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So this is a "kill the bad apple before he spoils the rest" kind of situation? Death to one for the good of the many?
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/8/2009 5:10:07 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PitaKat
So this is a "kill the bad apple before he spoils the rest" kind of situation? Death to one for the good of the many?
After due process. This is the basis of all criminal law. It is not justice to require the victims to provide for the perp. It is up to the perp to restore the victims and assure them of no further threat. If that can not be done, it is only just that the treat be removed and the innocent protected.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/8/2009 5:16:25 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/9/2009 2:53:38 PM
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schtumpy
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quote:
If that can not be done, it is only just that the treat be removed and the innocent protected.
Except in the rest of the first world, where the death penalty has been abolished.
But, then again, maybe we don't need it so much since our crime rates are so much lower........
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/9/2009 3:56:15 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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In king David's last words of 2 Samuel 23, he writes that, "although my house is not so with God, yet He has made with me and everlasting covenant,
Ordered in all things and secure.
This ordered and secure that David is speaking of is one of the preeminent thoughts of God throughout the Bible. Words, phrases and instructions are all ordered and secure. Examples are, "In the beginning, God created-". You will see order everywhere, Genesis to Revelation, beginning to end.
Paul writes of this in 1 Corinthians 14:40 when he says, "let all things be done decently and in order." He then goes on in 15 to tell how all things relating to our salvation were done in specific order, Christ died, was resurrected, was seen, we preach and you believe.
Now David then follows verse 5 with the following statement, v.6 "But the sons of rebellion shall be as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands.
This phrase, -because they cannot be taken with hands-, speaks to them being persuaded gently as with a guiding movement of our arm or hand.
David says in v.7, But the man who touches them, must be armed with iron and the shaft of a spear,- he must use force.
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/10/2009 3:38:05 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
quote:
If that can not be done, it is only just that the treat be removed and the innocent protected.
Except in the rest of the first world, where the death penalty has been abolished.
But, then again, maybe we don't need it so much since our crime rates are so much lower........
And our wasting of resources on the perps is so much higher.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/10/2009 4:24:30 AM
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schtumpy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
quote:
If that can not be done, it is only just that the treat be removed and the innocent protected.
Except in the rest of the first world, where the death penalty has been abolished.
But, then again, maybe we don't need it so much since our crime rates are so much lower........
And our wasting of resources on the perps is so much higher.
Well, you do have way more perps.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/10/2009 10:10:31 AM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Stoning the rebellious son - 11/10/2009 12:46:07 PM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
God's heart on this matter was that if a child who became rebellious against his parent's to the point where they couldn't handle it anymore, was taken before others.
I don't know whether you didn't see my post or you just don't believe me. However, this is not islam, HaTorah does not permitted parents to perform "honor killings". The child must be taken before a judge and the community for judgement to be rendered by the community, which must also take part in the execution. That is why such executions were extremely rare.
Right i said the same exact thing you said. I guess when you typed your post, i was typing mine at the same time. Where did i talk about "honor killings"
Do you really just enjoy disagreeing with others that much. In your post you said the exact same thing i did from a Jewish perspective. While in my post i explained it in more of a modern or lamen's terms. Either way it is the same exact thing, just different perspectives.
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