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Are some churches, districts, or denominations run by the mob?
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Are some churches, districts, or denominations run by t... - 11/13/2009 12:14:27 AM
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agapeflight
Posts: 120
Joined: 3/29/2009
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Now before you get all sensitive on me, recall that the idea is not new. There was a movie with Burt Lancaster that entertined that very idea. Look at how easy it would be if they just somebody in a position and learned that people will keep coming and paying tithes if they just give 'em three points and some prayers and a smile once in a while.
One of the things that has made me really consider this carefully is the number of organizations out there who view the world as terrritory and try ot lay claim to all of it including the people. The RCC does this, the Masonic movement does this, many churches and corporation do this.
When I go into a church and I realize that the level of nurture is very shallow and the overall give back of the ministry is small I suspect that the leadership is simply a bunch of con men. I mean, if you tithe $75K to a church, you are paying $7500 per year for around 150 hours of instruction, some get togethers and a few pats on the back from the pastor. Is the instruction that you receive in your church of such higher quality than your own personal devotions that you should pay $50 per hour for it?
And yes I know, if you have a good church then any money given is a great investment in the kingdom it really is. But what if nobody gets saved for years and years?
I am blown away at how little American Christians will accept in exchange for their God given stewardship. 3 points and a doxology, and dare ye not miss a monthly tithe payment!
Jesus spent his entire life for 3 years with those twelve and they probably did that same thing in roughly three year stints for the rest of their lives. Then before we even knew what hit us there was gnosticism, and power brokering, and everything became about holy sees instead of...
Am I the only one who sees how far we actually are away from the example of the earliest believers? I know that I am not.
So, how do we get back to it? Is there a getting back to it before the Lord returns or is this state of things going to be the final accomplishment of the church age?
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RE: Are some churches, districts, or denominations run ... - 11/13/2009 9:41:51 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6727
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapeflight
When I go into a church and I realize that the level of nurture is very shallow and the overall give back of the ministry is small I suspect that the leadership is simply a bunch of con men. I mean, if you tithe $75K to a church, you are paying $7500 per year for around 150 hours of instruction, some get togethers and a few pats on the back from the pastor. Is the instruction that you receive in your church of such higher quality than your own personal devotions that you should pay $50 per hour for it?
So do you give to the Chruch for a return on investment, or because we are instructed to support the Ministry, by giving God's money to the Chuch?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are some churches, districts, or denominations run ... - 11/13/2009 10:48:38 AM
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agapeflight
Posts: 120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapeflight
When I go into a church and I realize that the level of nurture is very shallow and the overall give back of the ministry is small I suspect that the leadership is simply a bunch of con men. I mean, if you tithe $75K to a church, you are paying $7500 per year for around 150 hours of instruction, some get togethers and a few pats on the back from the pastor. Is the instruction that you receive in your church of such higher quality than your own personal devotions that you should pay $50 per hour for it?
So do you give to the Chruch for a return on investment, or because we are instructed to support the Ministry, by giving God's money to the Chuch?
Thanks
RC
If it is God's money then you should probably give most of it to the church and only keep what you need for a modest living so that you will have much treasure in heaven. Are you tithing the air you breath as well? That's God's air you know. The Parable of the Talents implies that all of the money He gives you is in your charge and nowhere is there a context in the New Testament or in church history before AD 150 that suggests the early Christians thought tithing was a commandment for Christians. The teaching that all we have belongs to God is not in the Bible either, not in the way that you have spun it in your response. The bible teaches that we are stewards given an opportunity to use our time, talents, and wealth as we choose knowing that we must give an account not ismply for our money but for our very thoughts when using that money. This distinction is not subtle, and it does threaten the financial security of many ministries, since they know in their hearts that without a legalistic call to the tithe, or some other obligatory offering or twisting of Scripture and a bunch of sheeple willing to buy some part of their salvation on installment they could not get paid to tell us all what we can plainly read for ourselves. Real ministry is so much more than marketing our wares for a few hours on Sundays and Wednesdays. I have to refrain from my further points because I do not want this to devolve into a thread about tithing per se.
The question in the OP is, are parts of the visible church run by crime syndicates? Is it possible would be one related question. How would we know might be another. Is it impossible that people who are willing to offer protection to waste disposal companies for a fee would not realize that the church lacks the discernment to catch them in their craft? In truth for many pastors we know nothing at all about their personal lives, what they do on vacation, what they watch on tv, what they listen to on the radio.
With Jesus the disciples saw every microscopic detail of his life. They probably even heard him say , 'Hold on guys I need to duck back of this tree and releive myself.' They knew in every possible way that he was the genuine commodity.
Just as Peter said 'judgment will begin with the house of God' and so it begins as people are being awakened to the difference between what we call church and what Church really is.
May the Lord Jesus awaken us from our slumber.
< Message edited by agapeflight -- 11/13/2009 11:04:05 AM >
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RE: Are some churches, districts, or denominations run ... - 11/13/2009 11:04:46 AM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 63
Joined: 8/12/2009
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Agapeflight,
I think we need to be careful to judge what we cannot see. Paul writes about our work for the kingdom in 1 Corinthians 3. He says in v. 6, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase."
We don't know that the seed that may have been planted in your church will be watered by another church and someday will bear fruit when God allows it.
Even the words we write on these forums may bear fruit weeks and months later. We just don't know. There could be someone reading any one of the many threads contained here, never responding, and one day it will hit home and open their eyes and point the way to Christ.
I would certainly agree with you that there are many churches that are filled with hypocrisy, and we are told that this is a failing world by the word of God.
But we, as individuals, are to continue to seek ways to witness Jesus Christ to an unbelieving world and not worry about how God works in the minds of those He has called to be a part of His kingdom.
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RE: Are some churches, districts, or denominations run ... - 11/13/2009 11:13:44 AM
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agapeflight
Posts: 120
Joined: 3/29/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Agapeflight,
I think we need to be careful to judge what we cannot see. Paul writes about our work for the kingdom in 1 Corinthians 3. He says in v. 6, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase."
We don't know that the seed that may have been planted in your church will be watered by another church and someday will bear fruit when God allows it.
Even the words we write on these forums may bear fruit weeks and months later. We just don't know. There could be someone reading any one of the many threads contained here, never responding, and one day it will hit home and open their eyes and point the way to Christ.
I would certainly agree with you that there are many churches that are filled with hypocrisy, and we are told that this is a failing world by the word of God.
But we, as individuals, are to continue to seek ways to witness Jesus Christ to an unbelieving world and not worry about how God works in the minds of those He has called to be a part of His kingdom.
Thanks. Yes, the word of God accomplishes His will in the earth. So Paul said 'I am happy that the gospel is preached.' And the gospel is preached all across the land very often. As for our thoughts, God is the final judge, but we are warned by the Scripture that purity is important and motive matters to God, so there can be nothing wrong with pointing that out regarding our finances. I know the message is hard. The Bible is filled with hard messages. Love is persistent and the times are urgent. The Lord bless you. Having eyes to see, you will see even more.
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RE: Are some churches, districts, or denominations run ... - 11/21/2009 7:00:05 AM
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souljaboy
Posts: 28
Joined: 11/3/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Am I the only one who sees how far we actually are away from the example of the earliest believers? I know that I am not.
No your are not the only one. I believe that up to 1 million Christians are leaving “the” church in the USA every year for a more authentic expression of their faith in homes and without the aid of professional Christians.
quote:
So do you give to the Church for a return on investment, or because we are instructed to support the Ministry, by giving God's money to the Church?
I don’t think that the scriptures do tell us to give our money to the church bearing in mind that today‘s church in the western world bears no resemblance to the NT church. As far as I can see the believers in the NT gave money to meet the needs of the poor, to help apostles whilst they were travelling and could not work and to help the saints during a famine. No where does it say pay money into the church to pay for professional staff or for the electricity bills or so we can spend $5 million on a new building.
quote:
bunch of sheeple
Do “sheeple” climb steeples?
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