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Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/13/2009 12:49:00 PM
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cih92
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Why did God give man the ability to sin?
One explanation I have heard says the following:
God wants us to love Him from the bottom of our hearts and that if we did not have the ability to sin, then we could not love Him from the bottom of our hearts. A person without the ability to sin would be a robot.
I disagree with the above explanation. First of all, a person does not need to have the ability to sin in order to love God from the bottom of his heart. For example, Jesus loves God the Father from the bottom of His heart, but He does not have the ability to sin. Jesus does not have the ability to sin, but He is not a robot.
Second, as long as a person acts according to his desires and those desires were generated in an appropriate way, then he can still love God from the bottom of his heart even if he does not have the ability to sin.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/13/2009 12:57:41 PM
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daughteroftheking718
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God gave man the ability to choose. The ability to choose to obey or disobey. The ability to choose love or to hate, and therefore we chose to turn away from God and sin. We chose sin over God, and that is why we are where we are. God in love then gave Jesus. If God wanted to He would have created us like robots and unable to feel or love
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/13/2009 1:23:48 PM
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LastofAll
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For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 8:20
God made us subject to vanity, that we may be subject to hope, thereby seeing who is sincere, and who is not; and this subjection can no one escape, though some suppose they may, but none can.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/13/2009 2:45:29 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
God gave man the ability to choose. The ability to choose to obey or disobey. The ability to choose love or to hate, and therefore we chose to turn away from God and sin. We chose sin over God, and that is why we are where we are. God in love then gave Jesus. If God wanted to He would have created us like robots and unable to feel or love
Amen...Amen...Amen...to this. Spot-on as far as I am concerned.
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/14/2009 1:11:32 AM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
I disagree with the above explanation. First of all, a person does not need to have the ability to sin in order to love God from the bottom of his heart. For example, Jesus loves God the Father from the bottom of His heart, but He does not have the ability to sin. Jesus does not have the ability to sin, but He is not a robot. Jesus did have the ability to sin, otherwise He was not tempted.
If Jesus could not have sinned, then the temptation in the wilderness was not real temptation. In order for temptation to be real, one must be able to give into it. If one can not give into the temptation, then it is not a real temptation.
Jesus remained sinless not because He is God, but by loving His Father; which is exactly how we may not sin.
Furthermore, if Jesus could not have sinned, He would not be 100% human.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/14/2009 9:02:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
I disagree with the above explanation. First of all, a person does not need to have the ability to sin in order to love God from the bottom of his heart. For example, Jesus loves God the Father from the bottom of His heart, but He does not have the ability to sin. Jesus does not have the ability to sin, but He is not a robot. Jesus did have the ability to sin, otherwise He was not tempted. There aren't many points of doctrine on which I agree with Diolectic, but this is definitely one of them. But I assume, cih92, that you want to discuss the peccability of man, not that of Jesus.
What does "loving God from the bottom of one's heart" mean to you, cih? Does love have anything to do with obedience?
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/14/2009 9:09:10 AM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/14/2009 9:08:35 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
What does "loving God from the bottom of one's heart" mean to you, cih? Does love have anything to do with obedience?
(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/14/2009 9:16:44 AM
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drmark
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Exactly, RC! So to separate our love of God from our willfull desire to obey Him is impossible. If we do not have the ability to disobey, then we really do not have the ability to love.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/15/2009 12:19:22 AM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
I disagree with the above explanation. First of all, a person does not need to have the ability to sin in order to love God from the bottom of his heart. For example, Jesus loves God the Father from the bottom of His heart, but He does not have the ability to sin. Jesus does not have the ability to sin, but He is not a robot. Jesus did have the ability to sin, otherwise He was not tempted. There aren't many points of doctrine on which I agree with Diolectic, but this is definitely one of them. But I assume, cih92, that you want to discuss the peccability of man, not that of Jesus.
What does "loving God from the bottom of one's heart" mean to you, cih? Does love have anything to do with obedience?
Loving God from the bottom of one's hearts means to have a genuine love for God and it means to obey God.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/15/2009 12:22:25 AM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Exactly, RC! So to separate our love of God from our willfull desire to obey Him is impossible. If we do not have the ability to disobey, then we really do not have the ability to love.
Even if we did not have the ability to disobey God, we could still have a genuine desire to obey God. We could still take delight in obeying God.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/15/2009 12:23:56 AM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: daughteroftheking718
God gave man the ability to choose. The ability to choose to obey or disobey. The ability to choose love or to hate, and therefore we chose to turn away from God and sin. We chose sin over God, and that is why we are where we are. God in love then gave Jesus. If God wanted to He would have created us like robots and unable to feel or love
If we did not have the ability to reject God, that would not necessarily mean that we would be robots. We could still have a genuine desire to love and obey God and voluntarily act according to that desire.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/15/2009 9:06:01 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Loving God from the bottom of one's hearts means to have a genuine love for God and it means to obey God. So how can obedience be "genuine" if there is no ability to disobey?
quote:
Even if we did not have the ability to disobey God, we could still have a genuine desire to obey God. We could still take delight in obeying God. I personally do not see how this is possible, cih. There is no desire if there is no inability. The very nature of obedience demands freedom to choose and volitional action. If we have none of those by being unable to sin, then our so-called obedience is meaningless reflexive activity, not willful choice. What delight can there be in automatically doing what we must do?
quote:
If we did not have the ability to reject God, that would not necessarily mean that we would be robots. We could still have a genuine desire to love and obey God and voluntarily act according to that desire. How can any action be "voluntary" if there is no ability to act contrary to our desire?
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/15/2009 9:12:21 AM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/15/2009 11:03:18 AM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
quote:
ORIGINAL: daughteroftheking718
God gave man the ability to choose. The ability to choose to obey or disobey. The ability to choose love or to hate, and therefore we chose to turn away from God and sin. We chose sin over God, and that is why we are where we are. God in love then gave Jesus. If God wanted to He would have created us like robots and unable to feel or love
If we did not have the ability to reject God, that would not necessarily mean that we would be robots. We could still have a genuine desire to love and obey God and voluntarily act according to that desire.
No, you would be FORCED to desire to love and obey God, because if you could desire to disobey God but did not possess the ability to do so, then you would be a robot who's forced to love and obey God. So either way, once your free-will ceases to exist in one point, your free-will no longer exists period, and you're a mere robot. 
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/16/2009 10:56:12 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
I disagree with the above explanation. First of all, a person does not need to have the ability to sin in order to love God from the bottom of his heart. For example, Jesus loves God the Father from the bottom of His heart, but He does not have the ability to sin. Jesus does not have the ability to sin, but He is not a robot.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Jesus did have the ability to sin, otherwise He was not tempted.
If Jesus could not have sinned, then the temptation in the wilderness was not real temptation. In order for temptation to be real, one must be able to give into it. If one can not give into the temptation, then it is not a real temptation.
Jesus remained sinless not because He is God, but by loving His Father; which is exactly how we may not sin.
Furthermore, if Jesus could not have sinned, He would not be 100% human.
Gotta agree. Where people get the idea that Jesus could not have sinned or didn't have the ability to I don't know.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 1:05:40 AM
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cih92
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quote:
So how can obedience be "genuine" if there is no ability to disobey?
People can act according to their desires. They can do what they want to do.
quote:
I personally do not see how this is possible, cih. There is no desire if there is no inability. The very nature of obedience demands freedom to choose and volitional action. If we have none of those by being unable to sin, then our so-called obedience is meaningless reflexive activity, not willful choice. What delight can there be in automatically doing what we must do?
Suppose you did not have the ability to sin. In this situation, obedience would not necessarily be a meaningless reflexive activity. Obedience would not necessarily be an automatic response. In this situation, you could obey God because you have the desire or intention to do so.
quote:
How can any action be "voluntary" if there is no ability to act contrary to our desire?
A voluntary action is an action where you do something because you have the desire or intention to do it.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 12:01:53 PM
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drmark
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quote:
People can act according to their desires. They can do what they want to do. Which is why genuine obedience must come from a heart of genuine love. And I maintain that love is never genuine if one is "forced" to love.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 2:56:14 PM
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Theo-Minor
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I would even go so far as to say that God not only gave man the ability to sin, but facilitated it from the moment of his creation. Paul says that where there is no commandment, there is no transgression. God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. He commanded man not to eat from it.
From the moment of that act, God put man in harm's way and created sin in respect to mankind. With the commandment, good and bad existed, and man had to choose.
But I would go even further than that, and say plainly that God not only made man able to sin, but he expected him to sin, and even intended for him to sin, so that the faithful could choose him. The bible says that the lamb was slain from the foundations of the earth, not from the moment of man's first sin. It was God's plan to save man by grace before the day man took his very first breath.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 3:08:41 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But I would go even further than that, and say plainly that God not only made man able to sin, but he expected him to sin, and even intended for him to sin, so that the faithful could choose him. The bible says that the lamb was slain from the foundations of the earth, not from the moment of man's first sin. It was God's plan to save man by grace before the day man took his very first breath. Then you have gone too far, T-M! Because this line of (faulty) reasoning makes God to be the Author of sin, and that I will NEVER accept! God's foreknowledge does NOT imply God's intentions or His determinations.
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/17/2009 3:14:57 PM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 3:24:18 PM
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Theo-Minor
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I didn't say anything about "foreknowledge." I said that he put the tree there, he gave the commandment not to eat from it, and sin is dead until the commandment comes. God, therefore, put the temptation before man, and wanted him to be tempted, which is not an unbiblical concept, seeing that God invited Satan to tempt Job.
The bible also says that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Paul calls grace the "dispensation of the fullness of times," which reduces all previous dispensations or administrations to a subordinate level, subject to the parent dispensation of grace, which he determined from the foundations of the world. The law can't disanull the promise.
God didn't make man sin. But God orchestrated the scenario in order to accomplish his goals. Without the tree, there could have been no sin, and God is the one that put it there. Without the tempter, the serpent, mankind could never have been deceived, and God put the serpent in the garden. Without the commandment, there would have been no sin, because where there is no law, there is no transgression, and God is the one that gave the commandment.
Man may have made the choice, and for that we are solely responsible. I have never thought otherwise. However, God did everything in his power to ensure that we would fall. If he didn't want it to happen, he'd have fenced off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so we couldn't find it or touch it, just as he did with the tree of life when it was his desire that we have no access to it.
You are an intelligent man drmark. We've shared many battle fronts in these forums over the years. Don't let your passion get in the way of logical, systematic theology (which is the study of God, since you spoke against that word in another thread). The Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world. God's will will be done.
< Message edited by Theo-Minor -- 11/17/2009 3:32:58 PM >
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 3:39:33 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I didn't say anything about "foreknowledge." Sure you did: "God expected man to sin".
quote:
God, therefore, put the temptation before man, and wanted him to be tempted, which is not an unbiblical concept, seeing that God invited Satan to tempt Job. Fine, but that's not the same as "expecting man (or Job) to succumb"!
quote:
However, God did everything in his power to ensure that we would fall. NO, No, no! You are an inteliigent man, T-M, and we've shared many battle fronts in these forums over the years. Please don't let your passion get in the way of sound reason and personal experience. God CAN NOT and WILL NOT make us sin!
quote:
Don't let your passion get in the way of logical, systematic theology (which is the study of God, since you spoke against that word in another thread). I have never spoken against "logical systematic theology" as far as I can recall. In fact, I wish most folks posting here would stick to some common sense theology instead of their "Jesus and me" philosophy. I am quite comfortable with my Wesleyan/Holiness doctrinal tradition which clearly articulates against the unbiblical position of God authoring sin.
quote:
The Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world. God's will will be done. Amen, the plan of salvation was in place from the beginning. That fact has nothing to do with God wanting mankind to sin!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 4:11:39 PM
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Theo-Minor
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From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I didn't say anything about "foreknowledge." Sure you did: "God expected man to sin".
quote:
God, therefore, put the temptation before man, and wanted him to be tempted, which is not an unbiblical concept, seeing that God invited Satan to tempt Job. Fine, but that's not the same as "expecting man (or Job) to succumb"!
quote:
However, God did everything in his power to ensure that we would fall. NO, No, no! You are an inteliigent man, T-M, and we've shared many battle fronts in these forums over the years. Please don't let your passion get in the way of sound reason and personal experience. God CAN NOT and WILL NOT make us sin!
quote:
Don't let your passion get in the way of logical, systematic theology (which is the study of God, since you spoke against that word in another thread). I have never spoken against "logical systematic theology" as far as I can recall. In fact, I wish most folks posting here would stick to some common sense theology instead of their "Jesus and me" philosophy. I am quite comfortable with my Wesleyan/Holiness doctrinal tradition which clearly articulates against the unbiblical position of God authoring sin.
quote:
The Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world. God's will will be done. Amen, the plan of salvation was in place from the beginning. That fact has nothing to do with God wanting mankind to sin!
Bro, I learned a long time ago on these forums how to walk away from a conversation if people are going to be obtuse. Don't patronize me by quoting my words to you back to me with sarcasm. Particularly when I didn't mean them that way to you. Save any ugliness you have for someone else.
Personally, I find your answers to be doctrinally driven, not scripturally driven. There are only three logical conclusions that can be reached when considering the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
1) God fully expected that man would never touch it, so he didn't bother to protect it.
2) God fully expected that man would touch it, and he left it unprotected so man could do so.
3) God was completely ignorant of the danger inherent in leaving such a thing accessible and unprotected.
It can't be said that God was ignorant, because he told man what would happen if he touched it.
In contrast, God put cherubim and a flaming sword to protect even the way of the tree of life, lest man live forever.
Now you say that God didn't orchestrate the fall. Fine. But the scriptures tells us that, even knowing man would die if he ate from the one tree, he not only left it unprotected, but put the serpent in the garden to tempt us. While on the other hand, the tree that could give man life eternal was blocked from him, hidden, protected, and made completely unaccessible.
So according to the scriptures, God was very careless in his precautions against man's death . . . though he took definitive steps to ensure that he wouldn't live!
That being said, the first conclusion, that God expected man to never touch the tree, defies the logic that God himself displays. He takes precautions when he doesn't want something. It's just like the angel that stood in the way of Balaam so the donkey had to turn aside. God doesn't leave things to chance.
This would bring us to the second conclusion, that God expected man would touch the tree and die, which is consistent with the scriptural fact that the lamb was slain before the creation of man. It is also consistent with the scriptural fact that a testament is not in force until the death of the testator. For God's will and testament (the covenant of grace) to be put in force, it required God's own death. And for that to be facilitated, it required man's fall. Otherwise, God would have had to send the sinless Jesus amongst sinless mankind, and have him trip and crack his head on a rock or something so his testament could be established.
That's just stupid.
All said and done, God knew what we would do, and he took no precautions to prevent it. He expected our fall, and even required it, so he would have the requisite circumstances to establish his testament in blood. That means God is responsible for orchestrating the circumstances, though we still made the choice ourselves.
In short, God didn't make us sin, but he did nothing to prevent it, and by hiding the way to the tree of life, he further ensured that we would continue to live in sin until Christ, who is himself the tree of life. Paul's writings are full of this notion, that before Christ all were under the law, and all were in sin.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 4:35:10 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4632
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quote:
Bro, I learned a long time ago on these forums how to walk away from a conversation if people are going to be obtuse. Don't patronize me by quoting my words to you back to me with sarcasm. Particularly when I didn't mean them that way to you. Save any ugliness you have for someone else. It would be so easy (and carnal) to respond back with a selfish attitude to your post which I consider totally unfounded. But, I'm relying on the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to ask for your forgiveness in misspeaking my position to the point that you were offended by perceived obtuseness, sarcasm, and ugliness. May God bless you in your continued walk with Him, T-M!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/17/2009 4:50:00 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 282
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Bro, I learned a long time ago on these forums how to walk away from a conversation if people are going to be obtuse. Don't patronize me by quoting my words to you back to me with sarcasm. Particularly when I didn't mean them that way to you. Save any ugliness you have for someone else. It would be so easy (and carnal) to respond back with a selfish attitude to your post which I consider totally unfounded. But, I'm relying on the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to ask for your forgiveness in misspeaking my position to the point that you were offended by perceived obtuseness, sarcasm, and ugliness. May God bless you in your continued walk with Him, T-M!
I have no ill will to you bro. If you didn't mean it how I took it, that's cool. If you did, I'm a big boy. As you can see, I have no problem speaking my mind if I think someone is slighting me. Maybe I just took it wrong.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/19/2009 12:04:45 PM
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cih92
Posts: 93
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
People can act according to their desires. They can do what they want to do. Which is why genuine obedience must come from a heart of genuine love. And I maintain that love is never genuine if one is "forced" to love.
Suppose someone does not have the ability to sin. If he has the desire to obey God and acts according to that desire, then he would not be forced to obey God. His obedience comes from his desire to obey so he would not be forced to obey God. Being forced to do something implies that one is doing something that he does not want to do. If he is doing something that he wants to do, then he is not being forced to do it.
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RE: Why did God give man the ability to sin? - 11/19/2009 12:21:00 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4632
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quote:
Being forced to do something implies that one is doing something that he does not want to do. If he is doing something that he wants to do, then he is not being forced to do it. Okay, cih, now I'm getting your position better. You are understanding the word "forced" to apply to desire or will whereas I am considering ability or capacity related to "forced". A simple example of my usage would be the following: Since I'm male I cannot have a baby. So no matter how much I may desire to experience childbirth, I am forced to go through life without this experience. If someone cannot sin by disobeying God, then they are forced to go through life without sinning, regardless of their desire to obey or disobey.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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