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The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/19/2009 11:10:37 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 802
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, my friends.
Isn't it interesting that we Christians often believe that Babylon HAS to be anything other than BABYLON?
Here we are in the USA with our men and women fighting in Iraq--the HOME of the original Babylon--and we can't accept that the Babylon mentioned in the Revelation could really be Babylon?!
Look, the Jews spent many years in Babylon, as well as other Persian cities, and while many of them came back to the Land of Yisra'el, many of them STAYED THERE! Why does it have to be "figurative?" Why does it have to represent anything other than itself?
"Babylon" is mentioned by name in six verses in the Revelation: Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2, 10, and 21. Let's look at them quickly:
Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
KJV
Rev 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
KJV
Rev 17:5
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
KJV
Rev 18:2
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
KJV
Rev 18:10
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
KJV
Rev 18:21
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
KJV
Nothing in these verses even hints at this place being another place than Babylon, Iraq. In fact, Rev. 16:12 mentions the great river Euphrates which is the river on which the city of Babylon was built. In fact, the river went THROUGH the city. The Bible Exposition Commentary by Warren W. Wiersbe says:
5. Darius — judgment delivered (5:30-31)
The conquest of Babylon was engineered by Cyrus, king of Persia (1:21; 6:28; 10:1; and see 2 Chron 36:22-23; Ezra 3:1-5:17, passim), who was God's chosen servant for the task (Isa 44:28; 45:1-4). Who then was "Darius the Mede," mentioned in Daniel? (Dan 5:31; 6:1,9,25,28 and 9:1) Many students believe that Darius was Gubaru, an important officer in the army whom Cyrus made ruler of the province of Babylon. Darius the Mede must not be confused with Darius I who ruled from 522 to 486 and encouraged the Jewish remnant in the restoration of the temple (Ezra 1; 5:1-6:22).
Because of the high walls, the guard towers, and the strong bronze gates, the people in the city of Babylon thought they were safe from the enemy: but the Medo-Persian army found a way to get into the city. The Euphrates River flowed through Babylon from north to south, and by diverting the stream, the army was able to go under the city gates and into the city. The conquest of Babylon and its ultimate destruction had been predicted by Isaiah (Isa 13-14; 21; 47) and Jeremiah (Jer 50-51). Babylon had been God's chosen instrument to chasten His people Israel, but the Babylonian army had carried things too far and mistreated the Jews (50:33-34). The conquest of Babylon was also God's punishment for what they had done to His temple (50:28; 51:11).
I don't know if I agree with all he said, but the history of Bavel (Babylon) is here. The Persians diverted the river and invaded Babylon through the riverbed. They conquered the city that night, but the inhabitants were just under "new management." They now served Koresh (Cyrus) and his general Daryavesh (Darius) the Mede, instead of the progeny of N'vukhadnetsar (Nebuchadnezzar).
There's no reason to believe that it will be anything other than the renewed Bavel (Babylon) planned by Saddam in the land of Iraq.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/19/2009 12:55:18 PM
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claycup2
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/19/2009
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Outside of the fact that "Mystery" is directly associated with the designation "Babylon" in Revelation 11:8 this city is also called "Sodom" and "Egypt" - terms that had been directly associated in a figurative sense for Jerusalem in the OT. Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would fall within that generation - now, within that generation, a city designated as the site of the Lord's crucifixion, and accused of killing the prophets comes into view- and we are to look for literal Babylon?
Would you suggest that Peter was writing from literal Babylon when he closes the 1st epistle of Peter - "She who is in Babylon sends you greetings?"
< Message edited by claycup2 -- 11/19/2009 1:02:03 PM >
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/19/2009 12:55:24 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 126
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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Babylon-America's Destiny: A Fiery 1-Hour Destruction
By R.A. Coombes
A quote from the article
America is more Babylonian that ancient Babylon ever was.
Full article here
http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1098&Itemid=47
Iraq Revived As Mystery Babylon?
By R.A. Coombes
The Second Gulf War (GW2) is over now and the United States military has conquered Iraq. That war did include some fighting near the ancient ruins of Babylon but at this moment of writing, we have heard no reports of damage to the archaeological site. We suspect there was none or very little damage because there was very little left to damage. Ancient Babylon was never "rebuilt" like Charles Dyer and others tried to claim. Saddam Hussein had put up small portions of a few walls at key points on the city, and had dug out the foundation stones of a few key buildings, but without roofs. Nothing on site was built to stand or last but for a temporary time. Visitors to the site from last year indicated that most of what had been built to accommodate tourists was in serious disrepair.
Full article here
http://aoreport.com/mag/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1093&Itemid=55
Rebuilding Babylon in Prophecy? Don’t Believe It
http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1160&Itemid=47
By R.A. Coombes
60 Reasons Why Iraq Can Not Be Mystery Babylon
Full article here
http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47
"The fall of Babylon"
By Darren Smith
quote:
The Lord kept me up most of the night bringing a word for me to share and to share now. Many times I wait
until I have prayed over what I hear in my spirit, but I can't wait to send this word ou
Last night while praying before I went to bed, The Lord gave me a vision that really rattled me. In the vision
I saw this land split into four parts with each one under its own flag. Each region had terrible destruction
and many people were dead. As I looked over the destruction I was crying and the Lord asked me why are
you crying over the fall of Babylon? As a matter of fact, why have you been praying for the healing of
Babylon? In this vision I didn't have an answer and the Lord opened a scroll and started reading of the
indictments against our country, but before each one he clearly called the USA Babylon.
Full article here
http://www.streetscapeministries.com/gpage3.html
When a brother gets it from the Lord himself, that pretty much settles the issue.
Thank you for mentioning Egypt that reminded me of the Perry Stone video. Scroll down to
America's Parallel with Ancient Pharaoh
http://www.voe.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=59
Video or audio
OBTW I applaud your studies in end times prophecies, keep it up, many folk don't even bother with it.
"The Destruction of America"
By David Wilkerson
A quote from the article
I believe modern Babylon is present-day America
http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-55.html
David Wilkerson says it. R.A. Coombes says it. Darren Smith says it.
2 Corinthians 13:1 ...In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established
< Message edited by JMiller -- 11/19/2009 1:33:29 PM >
_____________________________
O Lord GOD, remember me
Callin it the way I see it
Are you drinking from the river Denial?
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/19/2009 4:09:49 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 802
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, claycup2.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Outside of the fact that "Mystery" is directly associated with the designation "Babylon" in Revelation 11:8 this city is also called "Sodom" and "Egypt" - terms that had been directly associated in a figurative sense for Jerusalem in the OT. Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would fall within that generation - now, within that generation, a city designated as the site of the Lord's crucifixion, and accused of killing the prophets comes into view- and we are to look for literal Babylon?
Would you suggest that Peter was writing from literal Babylon when he closes the 1st epistle of Peter - "She who is in Babylon sends you greetings?"
First, let me say, "Welcome back!" (Although, you might have been on crosswalk before I got here.)
Yes, there is that "mystery" word, a transliteration from the Greek word "musteerion" meaning "secret," but WHAT is so secret about it? Perhaps, the secret is that it comes back at all and everyone MISSES that it would!
Sorry, "S'dowm" (Sodom) and "Mitsrayim" (Egypt) were applied to Yerushalaim (Jerusalem) in chapter 11, not to Bavel (Babylon) in chapter 14 or beyond! Who says that the city in chapter 11 is the same as the city in chapters 14 and following?! To the contrary, it would seem that this Bavel is in CONTRAST to Yerushalaim. Perhaps we could call Revelation, "God's Tale of Two Cities" or "...THREE Cities (counting the Yerushalaim haChadashah, the New Jerusalem)?
In any case, rest assured that this is an entirely different "great city" (which just means "large city").
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/19/2009 6:31:19 PM
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claycup2
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
"S'dowm" (Sodom) and "Mitsrayim" (Egypt) were applied to Yerushalaim (Jerusalem) in chapter 11
I agree completely, but it will not be too difficult to demonstrate that the cities of chapter 11 and 14ff are indeed the same. Revelation is a book of contrasts... it is indeed a tale of two cities - one a harlot, the other, the bride.
In conceding that Sodom and Egypt were used as symbolic names for Jerusalem in chapter 11 you certainly lend a great deal of credibility to the possibility that Babylon is being used as such in chapter 17 - particularly in light of the fact that Peter used it in this way at the close of his 1st epistle.
It should be kept in mind that the cities of chapter 11 and 14-17 are both accused of killing the prophets, both have a cup of sin full through persecution and both are destroyed in a great earthquake. However, if we were to isolate the pericope of chapters 14-18 from chapter 11 there is still abundant evidence to demonstrate that Jerusalem is in view in these latter chapters:
#1 her adornment:
The reference to the temple in Jerusalem here is unmistakable. Gold, purple, and scarlet were not merely used in the adornment of the temple, but were its more prominent and striking features. Josephus details the presence and significance of these colors:
“before these doors there was a veil of equal largeness with the doors. It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful. Nor was this mixture of colors without its mystical interpretation, but was a kind of image of the universe; for by the scarlet there seemed to be enigmatically signified fire, by the fine flax the earth, by the blue the air, and by the purple the sea; two of them having their colors the foundation of this resemblance; but the fine flax and the purple have their own origin for that foundation, the earth producing the one, and the sea the other.”
“the temple in its front wanted nothing that was likely to surprise either men's minds or their eyes; for it was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and, at the first rising of the sun, reflected back a very fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun's own rays.”
The temple, like the tabernacle, had been carefully designed after the pattern prescribed in the book of Exodus:
“These are the offerings you are to receive from them … blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen”
(Ex 25:2-8)
"Make the tabernacle with ten curtains of finely twisted linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn” (Ex 26:1)
"Make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 26:31)
"For the entrance to the tent make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 26:36)
"For the entrance to the courtyard, provide a curtain twenty cubits long, of blue, purple and scarlet”
(Ex 27:15-16)
“Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 28:5)
“Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet (Ex 28:6)
“Its skillfully woven waistband is to be like it--of one piece with the ephod and made with gold, and with blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 28:8)
"Fashion a breastpiece for making decisions--the work of a skilled craftsman. Make it like the ephod: of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 28:15)
“Make pomegranates of blue, purple and scarlet yarn around the hem of the robe” (Ex 28:33)
“All the skilled men among the workmen made the tabernacle with ten curtains of finely twisted linen and blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 36:8)
“They made the curtain of blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 36:35)
“For the entrance to the tent they made a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 36:37)
“The curtain for the entrance to the courtyard was of blue, purple and scarlet” (Ex 38:18)
“From the blue, purple and scarlet yarn they made woven garments for ministering in the sanctuary”
(Ex 39:1)
The temple truly must have been a spectacular sight. Shimmering with gold and draped in purple and scarlet, she stood as a testimony that God had chosen Israel as His covenantial bride. The building was of such magnificence, the Talmud records that “he who he has not seen the Temple constructed has never seen beauty, in all his life.” But this sight of superlative beauty had become thoroughly corrupt. The imagery is adapted from that which had formerly been applied to Jerusalem in Ezekiel’s vision: I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments … you were adorned with gold … your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth … You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen … You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places, where you carried on your prostitution.
< Message edited by claycup2 -- 11/19/2009 6:59:32 PM >
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/19/2009 6:42:52 PM
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claycup2
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/19/2009
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#2 She is accused of killing the prophets
Mystery Babylon is said to be drunk with the “blood of the saints,” and those “who bore testimony to Jesus.” The charge of her bloodguilt is alluded to later – “In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth." These accusations could only be directed at Jerusalem. Christ himself had said, “Surely no prophet can die outside of Jerusalem!” Again, while addressing the experts in the law he said:
"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.”
Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, …"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you …”
Jesus accused his contemporaries of being an “adulterous generation” and prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and her temple within that generation. He said that they would be held responsible for “the blood of the prophets” that had been shed “since the beginning of the world.” Now, within that same generation, an “adulterous” city that is identified as the location of the Lord’s crucifixion, is described as dressed in the adornments of the temple, and is accused of being drunk with the blood of the prophets is brought into view and we are to look for a fulfillment in Babylon?
#3 She rules over the kings of the land
The primary definition of gh= (ge), offered by Kittel is “land,” and particularly, “the land of promise.” While it can be understood in a much broader sense, generally ko/smw| (cosmo) is used with reference to the planet as a whole. Upon receiving Peter and John’s report in Acts 4, the people cited the 2nd Psalm, and applied “the kings of the earth” to Herod and Pontius Pilot:
“"'Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.”
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
What “kings” could be said to have ruled in the land of Israel in the 1st century? The answer to this question is well documented not only in the NT, but also by both Josephus and Pliny. Luke writes: In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar — when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene.
Just as a “monarchy” is the rule of a nation under one king, a “tetrarchy” is the rule of a nation under ten. Josephus records that the land “was parted into eleven portions, of which the royal city Jerusalem was the supreme, and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body.” In like manner, Pliny writes:
The remaining part of Judæa is divided into ten Toparchies, which we will mention in the following order:--That of Hiericus , covered with groves of palm-trees, and watered by numerous springs, and those of Emmaüs , Lydda , Joppe, Acrabatena , Gophna , Thamna, Bethleptephene, Orina, in which formerly stood Hierosolyma , by far the most famous city, not of Judæa only, but of the East, and Herodium, with a celebrated town of the same name.
Josephus provides a more detailed synopsis of the identities of several of these tetrarchs and the corresponding “toparchies” over which they ruled. He lists himself as the former tetrarch over the Galilees and Gamala:
They also chose other generals for Idumea; Jesus, the son of Sapphias, one of the high priests; and Eleazar, the son of Ananias, the high priest; they also enjoined Niger, the then governor of Idumea, 32 who was of a family that belonged to Perea, beyond Jordan, and was thence called the Peraite, that he should be obedient to those fore-named commanders. Nor did they neglect the care of other parts of the country; but Joseph the son of Simon was sent as general to Jericho, as was Manasseh to Perea, and John, the Esscue, to the toparchy of Thamna; Lydda was also added to his portion, and Joppa, and Emmaus. But John, the son of Matthias, was made governor of the toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene; as was Josephus, the son of Matthias, of both the Galilees. Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command.
It would be historically accurate then, to claim that Jerusalem not only ruled over the kings of the land, she specifically ruled over ten kings, the precise number of kings the woman is said to rule over. We know from the historical accounts passed on by Josephus, (who incidentally was one of the ten), that these tetrarchs did participate in the siege against Jerusalem under the “head” of Titus: “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.”
#4 The natural antithesis of the New Jerusalem would be the old one.
#5 Again, as it has already been conceded that John had previously identified Jerusalem as "the great city" and identified it with figurative language (ie Sodom and Egypt) it would seem very natural that that would be the great city still in view, particularly in light of the fact that Peter called it such.
#6 It should be seriously considered that she is accused of adultery. As adultery is the violation of covenant relationship, this charge in itself would seem to point to Jerusalem.
In summary - there is substantial evidence to suggest Jerusalem is in mind. But no case has been established for a literal Babylon - it has been presented as a theory, but a case has not been made to either affirm or reject.
You are very cordial, and seem to be a good thinker.
God Bless your study,
claycup
< Message edited by claycup2 -- 11/19/2009 7:08:00 PM >
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/21/2009 4:57:40 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 126
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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Jeremiah 50:12 Your mother shall be sore confounded ; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.
This verse makes it impossible for an Israel or Jerusalem Mystery Babylon. Because this Babylon is far away from Israel. IE hindermost.
Strongs #319 hindermost = (utter) most, length,
There is also an end-times connotation to this word.
_____________________________
O Lord GOD, remember me
Callin it the way I see it
Are you drinking from the river Denial?
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RE: The Case for a Babylonian Babylon - 11/21/2009 9:22:24 PM
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claycup2
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/19/2009
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I'm afraid I don's see your point.
You would need to explain and relate your use of Jeremiah.
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