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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/10/2007 2:23:13 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2542
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
We do not want to know her heart at all. She might not have the desire to remarry. Yes, she married that wonderful godly man on her own. Ok, she has now re-married that godly man. Suppose if this godly man also starts harassing her, will she then divorce him and re-marry another godly man. No godly man is perfect in this world. Please answer me in this behalf.
Ouch, please don't speak stuff like this over a couple. Some people have bad people-pickers and are hurt over and over. They don't pay attention or dismiss the red flags that God sends to warn us.
But if this is a thriving relationship, please don't boldly proclaim in dark black letters, that this man will break her heart.
And what is this, "she could have led her husband to Christ by her conduct in 21 years"? Are you implying that she didn't try to live like a Christian woman? That is probably why she stayed as long as she did!
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/10/2007 6:52:32 PM
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treeclimber48
Posts: 78
Joined: 8/25/2006
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Matthew 19:9 Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness-----------it goes on to say if this is not the reason for your divorce you commit adultery.
If divorce was not allowed for marital unfaithfulness, why is Matthew even writing about it? Why is Jesus even talking about it to the Pharises.
Scriptures are always open to interpretation. For anyone to know the will of God for them they need to lean on God the Holy Spirit, and follow where He, alone will lead them. They may want to go the way of the world and what the world teaches, while He guides each and every footstep that is taken.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/10/2007 10:42:23 PM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
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truthwarrior,
I don't understand how it would come across that I would think John the Baptist was arrogant with his words.
prophet_india,
The reason I don't want to quote anyone, is that I think God knows how to point something like that out to each individual if they want it revealed (if they think there is a possibility they are being arrogant).
I also don't want to get into a debate over THAT with anyone.
Also, this thread is 220 pages long!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/10/2007 11:48:59 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
We do not want to know her heart at all. She might not have the desire to remarry. Yes, she married that wonderful godly man on her own. Ok, she has now re-married that godly man. Suppose if this godly man also starts harassing her, will she then divorce him and re-marry another godly man. No godly man is perfect in this world. Please answer me in this behalf.
Ouch, please don't speak stuff like this over a couple. Some people have bad people-pickers and are hurt over and over. They don't pay attention or dismiss the red flags that God sends to warn us.
But if this is a thriving relationship, please don't boldly proclaim in dark black letters, that this man will break her heart.
And what is this, "she could have led her husband to Christ by her conduct in 21 years"? Are you implying that she didn't try to live like a Christian woman? That is probably why she stayed as long as she did!
Dear car2ner,
Peace be unto you. Since it is a discussion forum where we have to discuss every issue threadbare, please do not attribute any motive to my statement. Since NoDumbBlonde had referred to a particular woman who had remarried after divorce by her husband of 21 years, I had to comment on that couple. If someone makes a reference to a particular person or a particular incident, then everybody has a right to give his/her comments on that person or on that incident. It is none of my business to know about the private life of a woman of God in this thread. Since NoDumbBlonde and you had cited the testimony of this woman of God, I have every right to know more about her. Since you know much about her, then you have to answer us. Otherwise, you may simply say, "I do not want to discuss about the private life of this woman".
You cannot judge on the marriage life of a woman who had spent nearly 21 years with her husband only by hearing from her. Did you hear her husband who was with her for 21 years? Ok, let us assume that her husband was a hardened criminal. If she had been long-suffering without her husband all these years, what changed her mind suddenly to remarry? How can you attribute her remarriage to the work of the Holy Spirit? If she had tried to live like a Christian woman as contended by you, then after these 21 long years, her marriage would not have ended in a divorce. Of course, she was long-suffering in the beginning of her marriage life and afterwards, she could not tolerate her husband. Can you throw some light in this regard?
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/11/2007 2:58:33 AM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 12:20:46 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: NoDumbBlonde
Prophet, I do hope you are not accusing me of taking the Lord's name in vain. If you are, then you need to re-check what I wrote. I believe in a loving, forgiving God. You seem bent on accusing and assuming the worse in all people that have experienced divorced. I will severely limit my comments on your reply and this subject as those that claim such legalistic viewpoints enrage me to my boiling point. 
NoDumbBlonde,
I am not accusing you of taking the Lord's name in vain. Since you had brought the name of the Lord into the discussion saying that He had led this woman to remarry after a period of 21 years, I had to comment on your statement. Good! You are believing in a loving and forgiving God. I also believe in the same God. But I also preach on the other attributes of this loving God i.e. judgment and righteousness. Preaching on the judgment character of God and His righteousness does not mean legalism. We are not accusing or condemning our dear brethren and sisters who are remarried after divorce. We love them very much and counsel them to do His will even after their remarriage. This thread is meant for this only. If we speak of the words of Jesus Christ on divorce and remarriage, we are accused of having legalistic views. Will you please enlighten us on your concept of "legalism"?
quote:
My reason in bringing up the woman I referred (which is not me) was to discuss how GOD CAN and DOES bring two people together in marriage AFTER divorce. The only way to describe it was by example. BTW - this couple was married for 18 years until his death. To assume that she'd just get divorced and marry another 'godly" man and then another shows such a critical spirit that also enrages me. Like I stated before, judgemental and legalistic.
You have stated as follows:
quote:
I have seen a woman who had repeated been cheated on and then abandoned by her husband of 21 years.
From your above statement, I understood that this woman was cheated by her husband and then was abandoned by her husband. Then she remarried another godly man. If her husband had died after 18 years, then she was free to remarry a godly man.
quote:
To respond to the scriptures most quoted in regards to remarriage that seem to float around I believe Jesus was referring to those who just didn't want to be married any longer. To this, I can see that that remarriage would be wrong. They didn't have the commitment in the first place. But I believe that God is a God of second chances. If He were not then He would not have sent his Son to die for us. God forgives and allows new beginnings. It's a shame that some Christians do not. As for my Pharasee comment: Judge not lest you be judge. I see some judgment going on so yes, I think the description does fit.
God has not given us two sets of commandments on marriage. That is one for those who are really married. And another set of commandments is for those who do not want to get really married any longer after a formal marriage. Of course, God does give us second chances in our lives but not second husbands or second wives during the life time of the husbands or the wives concerned. If God allows us to have second wives or second husbands, why cannot we have also the third or fourth husbands/wives? If one has made a mistake of choosing some wrong person for marriage, then God is there to bring that wrong person to repentance. If the other spouse is a believer, God will definitely change the heart of the spouse who inflicts cruelty on the innocent spouse. The whole world is not coming to end if the spouse concerned is abandoned by the other spouse. The act of the spouse who inflicts cruelty on the other spouse does not justify divorce and remarriage.
God does new things in our lives but does not allow us to divorce our spouses and to remarry new people. New life or new beginning does not mean a life after divorce and remarriage. The life of an abandoned spouse can be a better life in Jesus Christ and can be a new beginning with Christ Jesus being all in his/her life if the spouse concerned decides to remain unmarried during the rest of her/his life. If remarriage after divorce gives us new hope in this world, then God would not have ordained the holy institution of marriage for us. The new beginning comes in one's life through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for our sins and His blood continues to wash our sins including the sin of adultery.
We are not judging anybody in this thread. But as a spiritual man, I judgeth all things as per 2 Cor.2:15.
Where is legalism in my message?
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/11/2007 4:10:39 AM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 12:27:21 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: treeclimber48
Matthew 19:9 Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness-----------it goes on to say if this is not the reason for your divorce you commit adultery.
If divorce was not allowed for marital unfaithfulness, why is Matthew even writing about it? Why is Jesus even talking about it to the Pharises.
Scriptures are always open to interpretation. For anyone to know the will of God for them they need to lean on God the Holy Spirit, and follow where He, alone will lead them. They may want to go the way of the world and what the world teaches, while He guides each and every footstep that is taken.
To whom Jesus spoke the above words? You know that Jesus spoke those words to the Pharisees who wanted to divorce their wives. Are there people likened to the Pharisees in our midst who want to divorce their spouses on the ground of the sexual sin of adultery? The same words of Jesus are applicable to them only. How the charge of adultery will be proved against the accused spouse? Who will judge this charge?
Can you touch your heart and say that Jesus allows divorce thesedays after He has shed His blood on the Cross of Calvary, even on the ground of adultery? Are there Pharisees in our midst today? Please tell me if there are Pharisees in our midst today.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 1:55:20 AM
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treeclimber48
Posts: 78
Joined: 8/25/2006
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Are there people who have hearts that are hard today?
No one can live a perfect life, no matter how hard they try.
Jesus died on the cross for the sins that people commit everyday in thought, word, and deed. Some we know, some we not know.
All over the earth, people need God. It is the work of God, the Holy Spirit to convict a person of their sin. It is His work to bring the sin of adultery in this case out into the open in His timing.
John 16
1 Corinthians
no eye has seen
no ear has heard
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those
who love him
God reveals things to us by His spirit.
He searched the deep things; the things that are deep in the mind.
He searched the deep things of God.
I don't know what is in your mind. You do not know what is in mine. Just as no one can know what God is thinking other that God's Spirit.
With the help of the Holy Spirit, we may understand what God freely gives us.
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
Should a person remarry? Who is an unbeliever?
If a person is an unbeliever and married to a believer the scripture teach that they need not stay married the person is free to go.
If the persons stay married where they do not want to, will their hearts hardened, they will be in turmoil, there will be no peace.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 3:25:10 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: treeclimber48
Are there people who have hearts that are hard today?
No one can live a perfect life, no matter how hard they try.
Jesus died on the cross for the sins that people commit everyday in thought, word, and deed. Some we know, some we not know.
All over the earth, people need God. It is the work of God, the Holy Spirit to convict a person of their sin. It is His work to bring the sin of adultery in this case out into the open in His timing.
John 16
1 Corinthians
no eye has seen
no ear has heard
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those
who love him
God reveals things to us by His spirit.
He searched the deep things; the things that are deep in the mind.
He searched the deep things of God.
I don't know what is in your mind. You do not know what is in mine. Just as no one can know what God is thinking other that God's Spirit.
With the help of the Holy Spirit, we may understand what God freely gives us.
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
Should a person remarry? Who is an unbeliever?
If a person is an unbeliever and married to a believer the scripture teach that they need not stay married the person is free to go.
If the persons stay married where they do not want to, will their hearts hardened, they will be in turmoil, there will be no peace.
Dear treeclimber,
I agree that I do not know what is in your mind and that you do not know what is in mine. The Holy Spirit searches the deep things of God. We cannot learn the spiritual things in our flesh but through the Spirit who searches the deep things of God. We cannot learn it through our own human wisdom. Yes, we have not known or seen what God has prepared for us. Agreed! I do not understand as to why you quote all the Scriptures to discuss your view point in this thread. Please note that the Holy Spirit does not give us a message on His own. He hears from Jesus Christ, the Son of God and passes on the same to us. The Spirit searches the deep things of God in His Word. The Spirit of God does not search the truth in the writings of philosophers of this world like Socrates or Aristotle, etc but in the words of Jesus Christ in the gospels or in the epistles. We cannot go outside the Word of God in search of wisdom. Let me now come to the point raised by you.
Please note that according to I Cor.7:15, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases but God hath called us to peace" (I Cor.7:15). I believe you are arguing on the basis of this verse. Let him depart from that person whom he had married. The brother or the sister who wants to depart from the unbelieving spouse is not under bondage to live with the unbelieving spouse. It is a mere separation from the unbelieving spouse. When the unbelieving spouse accepts Jesus Christ as the Savior, then the believing spouse can come and rejoin the other spouse. Please note that the word "divorce" is not used. You have to read it in conjunction with the verses 12 and 13 wherein it is written clearly that the unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believing spouse. If the believing spouse is not able to tolerate the unbelieving spouse any longer, the former can depart from that house to live separately. Please note that if the believing spouse remarries during the life time of the other spouse, then the former commits the sin of adultery.
Yes, if the unbelieving spouse and the believing spouse cannot live together peacefully, there will be turmoil. That is why Paul writes to the believing spouse to depart and to live separately. He did not exhort the believing spouse to remarry after seeking a formal divorce from the court of law. Do not add anything to the Pauline epistle.
You cannot just pick up one verse and read it out of context. The word "But" which begins the verse 15 is very important. The unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the life of the believing spouse when both of them live together. But if the unbelieving spouse decides to depart due to the unbearable persecuction, let him do so. You cannot force the unbelieving spouse who wants to leave your house. The unbellieving spouse can depart. The word "depart" does not mean "going away" once and for all. If I am departing from my house for my office, I will come back to my house. I will not stay back in my office for ever. The house of the believing spouse is still open to the unbelieving spouse. Just because the unbelieving spouse has departed from the house, the believing spouse is not free to choose another guy as her husband. Where is the word "divorce" used here? Do you mean to say that the word "depart" means "divorce"?
Please note that the believing sister or the believing brother is not under bondage to this unbelieving spouse who is persecuting the believing spouse on account of the faith. For example, a married couple who were Hindus before their marriage have heard the glorious gospel. One of them has accepted Jesus Christ and the other spouse has not accepted the same. The unbelieving spouse does not feel comfortable in the house wherein the believing spouses practices his/her new faith in Jesus Christ. If this unbelieving spouse wants to leave the house, then the believing spouse cannot physically prevent the former from leaving the house because the believing spouse is not under bondage to the unbelieving spouse. This does not mean that the believing spouse can immediately remarry once the unbelieving spouse leaves the house. Faith in Jesus Christ does not lead us to sin but to righteousness. Is the act of divorce and remarriage righteous in the sight of God? How can you justify divorce and remarriage in this regard?
Please come back and discuss with me on this point.
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/11/2007 4:04:03 AM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 6:31:27 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2542
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
If she had tried to live like a Christian woman as contended by you, then after these 21 long years, her marriage would not have ended in a divorce. Of course, she was long-suffering in the beginning of her marriage life and afterwards, she could not tolerate her husband. Can you throw some light in this regard?
Show me a verse that guarantees that even if a partner lives a spotless life, that the other will not someday want to divorce. Infact, the erring spouse might find it incredilbly hard to live with a perfect spouse because they would always feel "not good enough". I do not have a verse for this but I have seen it happen with couples when one is trying to live as a good christian and the other has no peace.
Sure, they could seperate and live single the rest of their lives. But even with the ongoing debate I do not see that it is a black and white issue of no chance for remarriage. I have seen couples blessed in a 2nd marriage that included living ex partners. If you go back to my first posts, real life and scripture go hand in hand when I watch what goes on around me. Some first marriages are wonderful, some are terrible. Some Next marriages are wonderful, some are terrible. Some children of both cases thrive, some do not. If it were a black and white, dun-deal issue, we would not necessarily see all of this played out around us.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 7:41:34 AM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
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I've seen it said by more than one poster that the verse in Matthew 19 only addresses the Pharisees at the time, not our time.
So...does that mean that everything in the New Testament addressed to the Pharisees is to be ignored by us? It would seem so, if that is the reason we are supposed to ignore that verse.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 11:34:29 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
If she had tried to live like a Christian woman as contended by you, then after these 21 long years, her marriage would not have ended in a divorce. Of course, she was long-suffering in the beginning of her marriage life and afterwards, she could not tolerate her husband. Can you throw some light in this regard?
Show me a verse that guarantees that even if a partner lives a spotless life, that the other will not someday want to divorce. Infact, the erring spouse might find it incredilbly hard to live with a perfect spouse because they would always feel "not good enough". I do not have a verse for this but I have seen it happen with couples when one is trying to live as a good christian and the other has no peace.
First of all, please tell me how a partner can live a spotless life. If a partner can lead a spotless life in this world, then the question of the other spouse seeking a divorce does not arise at all. If there is a ''perfect spouse'' according to your theory, then the erring spouse can live with that perfect spouse. how can you define a perfect spouse? Please define it and then come back to this thread for discussion in this thread. If one tries to live as a good Christian i.e. Chrstlike, then the other spouse should have peace. How do you argue here? I do not understand you, dear car2ner! You need not quote a verse in this regard. Please argue in a reasonable manner. That is all.
quote:
Sure, they could seperate and live single the rest of their lives. But even with the ongoing debate I do not see that it is a black and white issue of no chance for remarriage. I have seen couples blessed in a 2nd marriage that included living ex partners. If you go back to my first posts, real life and scripture go hand in hand when I watch what goes on around me. Some first marriages are wonderful, some are terrible. Some Next marriages are wonderful, some are terrible. Some children of both cases thrive, some do not. If it were a black and white, dun-deal issue, we would not necessarily see all of this played out around us.
It is not merely a case of ''no chance for remarriage''. God does not give us chances to sin in this world. It is our choice or our free will to sin. It is not a black and white issue but a crystal clear issue which is reflected in the word of God. If we look into the mirror of the Word of God, we can see our own image in His word. We can see our own marriage life in His word. You want me to read your previous posts. I also humbly request to read my previous posts wherein I had dealt with the socalled blessings that accrue out of remarriages. I am humbly requesting you to define here the word ''blessings'' in the context of a remarriage. I give you a clue in this connection. Do the blessings mean devotional life of the remarried couple? Do the blessings mean material prosperity after such a remarriage? Do the blessings mean happy emotional life of the married couple without any major bickerings or any fight? Do the blessings mean obedience of the children born to them? Please enlighten me in this regard.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 11:42:59 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
I've seen it said by more than one poster that the verse in Matthew 19 only addresses the Pharisees at the time, not our time.
So...does that mean that everything in the New Testament addressed to the Pharisees is to be ignored by us? It would seem so, if that is the reason we are supposed to ignore that verse.
Not at all! I just wanted you to show me the Pharisees in our midst today. You have not answered me. If there is a Pharisee in our midst, the words of Jesus concerning divorce and remarriage are applicable to him. If there is no Pharisee in our midst, the same are not applicable in which case let us shut our mouths and keep quiet in this forum.
Jesus gave a message to the adulterous woman caught in the very act of adultery. He gave her a message, "Go and sin no more''. But the same Jesus gave another message to Nicodemus that he should be born again. Jesus did not give the same message to Nicodemus which He gave to the adulterous woman.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 12:04:10 PM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
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prophet,
I'm sorry, but I'm not quite clear on what you're saying. Are you talking about the comment I made earlier about pride, also?
To me, a Pharisee isn't just a hypocrite. I do believe that a Pharisee could be someone that lives according to what God said, but...if they are prideful in thinking their walk is better than another's they can be dangerous.
As far as the verse I mentioned in Matt. 19, there is disagreement. I'm at peace with my belief, and others are at peace with one that conflicts with it.
I read verses in Phil. the other day, just general study.
Phil. 3:12-13 I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his.Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but that is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead.
Phil. 3: 15 - 16 All of us who are spiritually mature should think this way, too. And if there are things you do not agree with, God will make them clear to you. But we should continue following the truth we already have.
The verses from 3:15-16 made me think how we need to be careful with saying whether or not someone is born again or not concerning this issue.
I don't know if you believe someone must not know God if they are remarried and support it, but it seems to be implied by some that have posted in this thread.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 2:40:10 PM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 424
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline
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From Whence Commeth Polygamy and Divorce?
This is a very important consideration,
What is the origin of these two institutions?
Scripture clearly identifies the origin of polygamy.
It’s inventor was the wicked Lamech:
Gen 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives;
Some believe Lamech to be the first Anti-Christ.
But polygamy was expensive.
Man needed a better institution.
Some new Lamech solved the problem:
Divorce and a so called “new-marriage” was invented.
And it remains the most popular form of Polygamy today.
Huck’s study finds the first written legal divorce regulation;
Recorded before the life time of Abraham, 600 years before Moses.
Found in the Ur of the Chaldees in the Kingdom of Ur Nammu 2050 BC.
“If a man divorces his primary wife, he must pay her one mina of silver.” (CU-6)
Divorce was an ancient invention of man and NOT of God.
Moses had to deal with it because it was practiced by all mankind,
And it appears that Moses suffered it because the hardness of man’s heart,
Was beyond regulation in this area … Moses also suffered polygamy.
Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked,
Who can know it?
Jesus forbade polygamy (they twain shall be one flesh);
Jesus forbade divorce with remarriage:
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Since polygamy and divorce was practiced "universerally" prior to Moses .... and Moses suffered to permit both in the Law ... this DOES NOT justify polygamy and divorce in God's eyes in any way ... God uses many anthropomorphic (human characteristic) terms to describe Himself ... In Jer.3:1 God chose the metaphor of divorce to describe His relationship with Israel ... Nevertheless in Jer. 3:14 God who divorced Isreal was yet "remained married" to Israel by the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant (Which God by His word could not divorce her)... God by using anthropomorphic terms of marriage/divorce does not LITERALLY make God a divorcee... Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:
I am also "always" surprised when those who rely on allegorical and mystical hermeunitics (rules of interpretation) get so LITERAL ... over God metaphorically divorcing Israel ... Divorce is a man-made institution ... it has no origins with God. Example of a metaphor: When my mother threatened to skin me alive ... she was not threatening to kill me now was she. I'm going to skin you alive ... My mother could not skin me alive but she could say it...Jesus spoke in many parables
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 8:51:24 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2542
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
If one tries to live as a good Christian i.e. Chrstlike, then the other spouse should have peace. How do you argue here? I do not understand you, dear car2ner! You need not quote a verse in this regard. Please argue in a reasonable manner. That is all.
One would think that a good christian spouse alone could bring peace to a home, but this is not the case. If one of the pair is unstable in his/her heart, then there is no peace even if their partner tries their best to do everything right.
In fact, it often makes the hard hearted partner feel guilty and then in response, treats the other with contempt.
I am not sure what you mean by "a reasonable manner." If you feel that you must respond to that, please use a PM. If I expect others to stay on topic, I must make sure to do the same.
< Message edited by car2ner -- 9/11/2007 9:12:15 PM >
_____________________________
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http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 9:04:12 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
I've seen it said by more than one poster that the verse in Matthew 19 only addresses the Pharisees at the time, not our time.
So...does that mean that everything in the New Testament addressed to the Pharisees is to be ignored by us? It would seem so, if that is the reason we are supposed to ignore that verse.
The point is that Jesus specifically said He was referring to the Old Covenant Law when He made the statement to the Pharisees in Chapter 19, and specifically quoted it in Matthew 5. Are you under the Old Covenant or the New? Do you keep every Old Covenant Law or do you pick and choose the ones that you can use to further your own agenda? If you're under the New, then this provision has no application to you.
What the Pharisees commonly did was to take Deuteronomy 24 and interpret the provision in any way that suited their needs, and then claim that they were keeping the Law when in fact they were perverting it. That's why Jesus said that "everyone who divorced and remarried except for the cause of fornication was committing adultery" when speaking to them. Deuteronomy 24 allowed a husband to divorce His wife if he found that she had fornicated before he married her. This fornication was to be found "WHEN HE MARRIED HER" according to what the Law stated, yet the Pharisees were divorcing their wives after they were fully married, and for a variety of causes.
Many who call Jesus "Lord, Lord" use the very words of their so-called "Lord" as a justification for their own divorces and subsequent adulterous relationships, just as the Pharisees did while claiming self righteousness. These are the true legalists, and the modern day version of Pharisees.
Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 " Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery. "
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 9:06:47 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2542
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
I am humbly requesting you to define here the word ''blessings'' in the context of a remarriage. I give you a clue in this connection. Do the blessings mean devotional life of the remarried couple? Do the blessings mean material prosperity after such a remarriage? Do the blessings mean happy emotional life of the married couple without any major bickerings or any fight? Do the blessings mean obedience of the children born to them? Please enlighten me in this regard.
devotional life: Yes indeed. A closeness and imtimacy with each other and God in their spiritual life.
Material prosperity: perhaps, but the bible says that it rains on both the rich and the poor man. So material prosperity is no true measure of blessings. Perhaps it is the good stewardship of those materials that points towards the couples' relationships to God.
Happy emotional life without any major bickering or fight: I have seen this in remarried couples that I know well.
Obedient Children: perhaps these are step children getting to witness how a loving couple interacts and not a couple fighting, cheating, and telling lies to and about each other. These children now have two role models of marriage.
But how children behave is also in their free will. I have stated that even in homes with wonderful marriages, children can make terrible choices.
Obedient children part two: Children born to the couple. Again, children are a blessing but children also have free will. Some will walk away from a good example, some will learn from a terrible example. So how the kids behave is not a full measure of blessing since they bring their own nature to the mix.
All of this is in posts way way back. My intent is not to rehash all of this. I had said it before. My desire is avoid having people agrue their belief using the imagined intent and motivations of others. It also seems sad that there is a temptation to pronounce gloom and doom.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 11:48:12 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
prophet,
I'm sorry, but I'm not quite clear on what you're saying. Are you talking about the comment I made earlier about pride, also?
To me, a Pharisee isn't just a hypocrite. I do believe that a Pharisee could be someone that lives according to what God said, but...if they are prideful in thinking their walk is better than another's they can be dangerous.
As far as the verse I mentioned in Matt. 19, there is disagreement. I'm at peace with my belief, and others are at peace with one that conflicts with it.
I read verses in Phil. the other day, just general study.
Phil. 3:12-13 I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his.Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but that is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead.
Phil. 3: 15 - 16 All of us who are spiritually mature should think this way, too. And if there are things you do not agree with, God will make them clear to you. But we should continue following the truth we already have.
The verses from 3:15-16 made me think how we need to be careful with saying whether or not someone is born again or not concerning this issue.
I don't know if you believe someone must not know God if they are remarried and support it, but it seems to be implied by some that have posted in this thread.
Dearly beloved in Christ Jesus,
Greetings. I am not referring to the issue of pride in my post. Let us also not discuss about Phariseeism in this thread because all these issues will sidetrack us. You have quoted Phil. 3:12-13, referring to your spiritual growth here. Let us not discuss about our own spiritual growth here and the high calling in Christ Jesus in the words of Paul. Again, let us not discuss about the issue of salvation or the experience of being born again in this thread. Marriage has nothing to do with the salvation through Jesus Christ. LET US DISCUSS ONLY ON THE ISSUE OF REMARRIAGE AFTER DIVORCE in the context of the Bible.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2007 11:58:46 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
If one tries to live as a good Christian i.e. Chrstlike, then the other spouse should have peace. How do you argue here? I do not understand you, dear car2ner! You need not quote a verse in this regard. Please argue in a reasonable manner. That is all.
One would think that a good christian spouse alone could bring peace to a home, but this is not the case. If one of the pair is unstable in his/her heart, then there is no peace even if their partner tries their best to do everything right.
In fact, it often makes the hard hearted partner feel guilty and then in response, treats the other with contempt.
I am not sure what you mean by "a reasonable manner." If you feel that you must respond to that, please use a PM. If I expect others to stay on topic, I must make sure to do the same.
I meant by the word "a reasonable manner" just to drive home the fact that let us confine our arguments to the points under discussion, if we do not know some particular verses to support our views.
Whatever may be the good life or the bad life of a spouse, as the case may be, there is no question of divorce and remarriage. A married spouse is bound unto death to the other spouse. As such, the former has to live the marriage life and to preserve the marriage bond under any circumstances. The spouse may be a nominal Christian or a born-again Christian. If some spouse claims to be a born-again Christian and to know the Lord as his/her personal Savior, then the former has to be more careful in the marriage life and to live like Christ or to live a crucified life.
A spouse has to make adjustments with her/his life partner so that the marriage may be preserved.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 12:26:24 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
I am humbly requesting you to define here the word ''blessings'' in the context of a remarriage. I give you a clue in this connection. Do the blessings mean devotional life of the remarried couple? Do the blessings mean material prosperity after such a remarriage? Do the blessings mean happy emotional life of the married couple without any major bickerings or any fight? Do the blessings mean obedience of the children born to them? Please enlighten me in this regard.
devotional life: Yes indeed. A closeness and imtimacy with each other and God in their spiritual life.
A remarried couple may be very good at devotions i.e. spending time together in God's presence, worshipping Him in the local church. All these are works if they do not obey God or if they do not accept the grace of Jesus Christ. Accepting the grace through Jesus Christ means obeying Jesus Christ right from the time of their salvation till the time of their death. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The remarried couple may be sacrificing a lot at the altar of God. But God will not accept their sacrifices when they live in the sin.
quote:
Material prosperity: perhaps, but the bible says that it rains on both the rich and the poor man. So material prosperity is no true measure of blessings. Perhaps it is the good stewardship of those materials that points towards the couples' relationships to God.
A remarried couple may have sufficient money or more than their needs. Material possession is not the sign of blessings at all. Of course, we need material possession in this world. But it should not be taken as the sign of blessing from God. There are many rich people in this world but they have not accepted Jesus Christ. Only those who have accepted Jesus Christ are truly blessed of God.
Who are blessed of God? Let us read the Word of God.We tend to believe that material prosperity or state of happiness as a sign of blessing; poverty or want or mourning is a curse. What is the meaning of “blessedness” in the sight of God. Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount the meaning of “blessedness” in Mathew’s chapter 5 (verses 3 to 11).
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”; “Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted”;“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”; “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”
quote:
Happy emotional life without any major bickering or fight: I have seen this in remarried couples that I know well.
The remarried couple may be spending happier times after their remarriage when compared to their earlier lives when they had lived with their earlier life partners, almost fighting daily. “Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted..." During their earlier marriage life, they could have made sacrifices to make their marriage life truly meaningful. Mere emotional life with happiness is not the hallmark of any true marriage.
quote:
Obedient Children: perhaps these are step children getting to witness how a loving couple interacts and not a couple fighting, cheating, and telling lies to and about each other. These children now have two role models of marriage.
But how children behave is also in their free will. I have stated that even in homes with wonderful marriages, children can make terrible choices.
Above all, the testimony of remarried couple before their children including the step children will very much affect the spiritual and moral life of the little children who are separated from their original/biological parents. These children when they grow will follow the footsteps of their guardians. They will dare to divorce their spouses at the slightest provocation and to remarry after divorce. They may be obedient to their biological parents because of the fear of losing their home.
quote:
Obedient children part two: Children born to the couple. Again, children are a blessing but children also have free will. Some will walk away from a good example, some will learn from a terrible example. So how the kids behave is not a full measure of blessing since they bring their own nature to the mix.
The children are greatly influenced by their guardian parents and by the environment in which they live. No doubt, the children are a blessing. Jesus loves the children, whether born to their original parents or to theiir remarried parents. The terrible example before them is the trauma of divorce and remarriage.
quote:
All of this is in posts way way back. My intent is not to rehash all of this. I had said it before. My desire is avoid having people agrue their belief using the imagined intent and motivations of others. It also seems sad that there is a temptation to pronounce gloom and doom.
I had also effectively replied to all these posts earlier.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 12:45:40 AM
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hnt
Posts: 667
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Personally, I see the failing of the church and the marriages in how they present things.
Paul declared that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. They are to lay their lives down for their wives as Christ laid His life down for the church. The disciples were no doubt stunned, in shock and in awe. They witnessed the passion of Christ first hand – up close and personal. They watched Jesus get beat to a bloody pulp.
They stood by in horror as He carried and then hung on that same cross, naked, unrecognizable and rejected by God. They were eyewitnesses to this love that their beloved Jesus expressed to His bride, the church. They watched Jesus lay His life down for His bride.
I am sure that they reeled with this information, asking in disbelief, “How can we, as mere men, possibly lay our lives down for our wives as completely as Christ laid His life down for the church? This will take a lifetime of dedication to my wife. At best, I will not come close to what I saw Jesus just do because He so loved His bride.”
Jesus did not look up from the ground and say, “If you do not submit to me, I will not die for you.” No. Jesus did not do that. He just died for His bride, regardless of her response. Yes, Jesus had the hope laid before Him that she would respond by loving and serving Him in return, but there were no guarantees. He had to die. First. With no strings attached. This is how a husband is to love his wife. There are no guarantees, but there is a promise, and this promise is that your wife will have a desire for you. (Genesis 3:16) This is a promise you can count on. But, you must die first. You must lay your life down for your wife first.
Yet what do we see in the church teachings?
Do you see why traditional marriage teachings have failed the church? The church has taught for more than an entire generation that the success or failure of a marriage was solely dependent on a wife’s willingness to lay her life down in complete submission and service to her husband. (A generation is 40 years.) Women have been taught that if they will submit completely to their husband and follow his leadership in everything, that God would deal with him and that someday, he would be a good husband. It did not matter if he treated her rudely, yelled at her, called her names, or even treated her worse than his dog. She was simply to submit and pray.
This failed paradigm required a wife to function in the role of the husband, laying her life down for him as Christ laid His life down for the church. The church, for over 45 years, has taught marriage completely backwards! Is there any wonder that we have a 50% plus divorce rate in the church!
You have to wonder if the church pushed the other direction JUST as hard what outcome would come. Women have the desire for their husbands - God given desire...Yet the scripture that is quoted all to often about the husband's loving their wifes in a certain manner is not. Ever wonder WHY there was so many mentions of WHAT the husband is expected to do? It could be because he doesn't normally go that way, and he is to do it God's way instead.
I mean look at the amount of books, articles, etc on HOW to be that proper wife! LOL do you see as many on the proper husband? Could be the focus is pointed in the wrong direction, because God made us one way...and we are BENT on doing it the other direction! I mean sanity (I mean insanity LOL) is doing things the same way over and over again...and expecting a different result. Seems like maybe we need to take another look at scripture to see if MAYBE we missed something along the way!
< Message edited by hnt -- 9/12/2007 1:01:26 AM >
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Emotional abuse and Faith
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 3:09:07 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
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quote:
truth warrior said:
Coming to the subject of the churches being unholy, according to the perception of Truth Warrior, the churches she has attended or she has known in her nation are not holy because, according to her, :
quote:
The truth is that there is MUCH unholiness in the American/Western Churches today. We have multitudes of churches who are accepting of relationships the Lord calls adultery..........we have multitudes of churches who accept homosexuality---not only as attenders, but as clergy, Sunday school teachers, ,etc. We have MANY churches/leaders who are fleecing the sheep for their own gain (the prosperity gospel). We have MANY churches who are teaching "easy believism".........creating multitudes of false converts---telling them that a simple prayer will save them. Paul spoke of the "last days" and the nature of men/women/children in the last days............He also spoke of the "teachers" of the last days..........we are seeing ALL of these things come to pass in MOST CHURCHES in the Western World. (II Tim. 3-4).
In view of the above, the perception of Truth Warrior that the churches are unholy is correct. You have alleged that her statement which is tantamount to ''attack each other's churches and motivations is out of line''. She has spoken the truth concerning the spiritual state of the churches in her nation.
It seems that you do not want her to say something against the doctrine of divorce and remarriage. At the same time, you do not want her to say something about the unholiness of the churches who permit the practice of divorce and remarriage. She is confining herself to the thread. She has not attacked the churches but has exposed the unholiness in the churches.
I stand in complete agreement with you truth warrior. It is such a truly sobering truth that creates true anguish in my soul as far as feeling a burden as to the state of the church.
You have said some of the problems quite accurately, and so when unbelievers laugh at the hypocrisy of expecting some to be holy when we (modern church)have trashed holiness, they are right. Sometimes the Lord will use the unbeliever to convict the believer!
Also, truth warrior, what you say bout Jesus warning us is also true. You mention 2 tim 3-4....I would also add Matthew 24.....whole chapter.
Obviously some of us are under, or affected by a great burden over the spiritual state of what we view of as "the church". We are especially burdened if some of these errors and ungodly behaviors are manifest in our own families, or painfully, even directed at us by those we love.
As you say, prophet_india, truth warrior has spoken the truth. She is right on topic in this thread. The church has sidestepped holiness and will suffer for it.
James 4:3-5 (New International Version)
3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. a]
It is the world that teaches divorce. NOT the Father. It is the world that justifies marrying another whilst one's spouse still lives, NOT the Father, nor Jesus. It is the Spirit that tells us in latter times that people will hate one another, and betray one another. Jesus tells us in Matt 24 that he/she who endures to the end will be saved, through all this tragedy and trembling.
When we read Revelations, there are so many warnings and denouncements about adultery, it is not funny! We need to get sober and real about this sin, and stop pretending it isn't happening, ever day, in the midst of what we call "the church".
These are the times in our history as believers to be using very sober words, not shallow and demeaning words, but real words of exhortation. We are being given time to repent, and it is a wonder how much mercy that God seems to live in and share with us. Let us look to Him for mercy in our time of need. For the sake of the church. For the sake of our souls. For the sake of our kids.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 3:57:39 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
God has not given us two sets of commandments on marriage. That is one for those who are really married. And another set of commandments is for those who do not want to get really married any longer after a formal marriage.
Of course, God does give us second chances in our lives but not second husbands or second wives during the life time of the husbands or the wives concerned. If God allows us to have second wives or second husbands, why cannot we have also the third or fourth husbands/wives? If one has made a mistake of choosing some wrong person for marriage, then God is there to bring that wrong person to repentance. If the other spouse is a believer, God will definitely change the heart of the spouse who inflicts cruelty on the innocent spouse. The whole world is not coming to end if the spouse concerned is abandoned by the other spouse. The act of the spouse who inflicts cruelty on the other spouse does not justify divorce and remarriage.
God does new things in our lives but does not allow us to divorce our spouses and to remarry new people. New life or new beginning does not mean a life after divorce and remarriage. The life of an abandoned spouse can be a better life in Jesus Christ and can be a new beginning with Christ Jesus being all in his/her life if the spouse concerned decides to remain unmarried during the rest of her/his life. If remarriage after divorce gives us new hope in this world, then God would not have ordained the holy institution of marriage for us. The new beginning comes in one's life through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for our sins and His blood continues to wash our sins including the sin of adultery.
We are not judging anybody in this thread. But as a spiritual man, I judgeth all things as per 2 Cor.2:15.
Where is legalism in my message?
I thank you for stating the clarity of marriage doctrine that Jesus taught us. I especially appreciate what you said here:
If remarriage after divorce gives us new hope in this world, then God would not have ordained the holy institution of marriage for us. The new beginning comes in one's life through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for our sins and His blood continues to wash our sins including the sin of adultery.
I have often come to understand this in my musings....that the doctrine of remarriage being acceptable (and not thought of as adultery) DOES nullify the holy institution of marriage. It does make the original vows a mockery! It also greatly disempowers the vows of that second attempt (or third or fourth) because the vows meant to be lifelong (original)are thought of as so easily disposable.
And yes, once again, if the sin of adultery during the marriage gave the offended spouse the "right" to divorce and act as if the original marriage is no longer binding, then we are saying the blood of Jesus is just not quite adequate enough for that one sin. the sin of adultery, which is defined as also when one is guilty in their thoughts of lust.
If Jesus blood is not complete enough to cleanse from this sin, we(our churches, our nation, our families) are in a hopeless state.
Re: judging. When we "write off" a spouse for their sins against us, we judge in the wrong way, saying they are outside of God's grace to restore them to their rightful place. God forbid that we should impede the return of a prodigal to their rightful stewardship when the time can be right for restoration. If we prayed for them until they died, not seeing a restoration in this life, we will still have done the best, and can have pleased God in this regard. We obey Him when we "remain unmarried or be reconciled".
We will have been good stewards, (servants as in the parable Matt 25:14-30), if we are faithful with what He gave us and do not bury it due to fear of the unfairness of our Master(somehow thinking that He should let us remarry though He taught us it would be adultery). Let us not be found like the unfaithful servant. Let us not break faith with the wife or husband of our youth. (Malachi)
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 5:55:46 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2542
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
I mean look at the amount of books, articles, etc on HOW to be that proper wife! LOL do you see as many on the proper husband?
It just don't publish many of those because men don't tend to read relational-help books as often as women do.
Returning to the topic now.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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