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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 5:59:38 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2539
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
Who are blessed of God? Let us read the Word of God.We tend to believe that material prosperity or state of happiness as a sign of blessing; poverty or want or mourning is a curse. What is the meaning of “blessedness” in the sight of God. Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount the meaning of “blessedness” in Mathew’s chapter 5 (verses 3 to 11).
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”; “Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted”;“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”; “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”
Hmm, is this topic running somewhere on the board? I might be a good one to start.
In this case, blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted. I know that it means to mourn the passing of a loved one, but it may implying mourning a dream of a successful marriage. I am sure that many of you would not agree but I think God could comfort that mourning by a successful subsequent marriage. Seen it happen.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 7:56:11 AM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
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SealedEternal,
Oh my....I have an "agenda" now? I'm expressing how I see this.
prophet,
I wasn't trying to cause friction. I'm just stating what I believe I've seen in this thread, and how I believe the differences in doctrine should be approached when we discuss them.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 8:44:33 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
Do you see why traditional marriage teachings have failed the church? The church has taught for more than an entire generation that the success or failure of a marriage was solely dependent on a wife’s willingness to lay her life down in complete submission and service to her husband. (A generation is 40 years.) Women have been taught that if they will submit completely to their husband and follow his leadership in everything, that God would deal with him and that someday, he would be a good husband. It did not matter if he treated her rudely, yelled at her, called her names, or even treated her worse than his dog. She was simply to submit and pray.
This failed paradigm required a wife to function in the role of the husband, laying her life down for him as Christ laid His life down for the church. The church, for over 45 years, has taught marriage completely backwards! Is there any wonder that we have a 50% plus divorce rate in the church!
You have to wonder if the church pushed the other direction JUST as hard what outcome would come.
I don't know which churches you are speaking of, but if this were REALLY true, then why is the divorce rate over 50% among confessing Christians---IF women, in fact, are "enduring" to the end in terrible marriages because they're being taught that in churches? The fact is: the same sins that are with us now, have ALWAYS been..........and families USED to stay intact. As a matter of fact, when women were much more submissive, marriages LASTED. The fact is that feminism has wrought horrible destruction upon families and the churches have embraced feminism. The "I deserve" mentality pervades many "Christian" families. No longer are we serving God in our marriages (sacrificially), but we are serving ourselves(men and women both). We do not want to endure tribulation, instead we seek "ease of life"----to the detriment of our families and the upcoming generations, which WILL follow in our steps(if they too do not follow God). Again, the same sins that are with us now, have ALWAYS been..........and families USED to stay intact.
I will say this because I believe it to be true: in the most conservative of churches---those which teach BIBLICAL submission of wives and teach the BIBLICAL sacrificial love of husbands for their wives, you will find a much LOWER divorce rate than you will find in many liberal, charismatic churches. Why? Because of obedience to the Word----in spite of the actions of their spouses.
In many liberal, charismatic churches you will find that EXPERIENCES/FEELINGS rule over the Word of God----and because of this a VERY high divorce/remarriage rate. I know because when I came to faith in Christ, I was in a charismatic church and the divorce/remarriage rate was MUCH higher than in the conservative churches who were much more WORD focused/obedience focused that I attended later on. Did "flesh" come into play in the marriages in both Churches? Yes, but I find a much stronger teaching on SELF entitlement in charismatic churches than I find in many of the most conservative churches.........and again, I say this is MY opinion based upon what I have personally experienced in attending/being very involved in various types of churches.
MOST of the biggest scandals have come from those churches who are very FLESHLY based (relationships/money, etc)----I wont' name any names, but two HUGE scandals in the news lately are coming from those ministries who are VERY focused on worldly possessions........and the flashing of those possessions. Did Jesus behave in such a manner while He walked the earth, nor did any of His disciples?
You know what? I think we really need to stop focusing on "role" playing in regards to Eph. 5 with our marriages and instead focus on living our our lives FOR CHRIST. "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives within me"............that applies to husbands and wives alike. We need to be Jesus to WHOMEVER the Lord has allowed into our lives----the good, the bad, and the ugly. THIS is our TRUE calling.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 9:27:46 AM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 424
Joined: 1/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
And yes, once again, if the sin of adultery during the marriage gave the offended spouse the "right" to divorce and act as if the original marriage is no longer binding, then we are saying the blood of Jesus is just not quite adequate enough for that one sin. the sin of adultery, which is defined as also when one is guilty in their thoughts of lust.
If Jesus blood is not complete enough to cleanse from this sin, we (our churches, our nation, our families) are in a hopeless state.
Yes, blessednw your post is Love defined: Adultery is a very serious crime against a spouse ... and it's possible forgiveness is a miracle of the Grace of our Matchless God who gave the precious blood of His only begotten Son in an offer of porpitiation for such sin. Oh, so Great Salvation.
Huckfinn
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 11:23:40 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
Who are blessed of God? Let us read the Word of God.We tend to believe that material prosperity or state of happiness as a sign of blessing; poverty or want or mourning is a curse. What is the meaning of “blessedness” in the sight of God. Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount the meaning of “blessedness” in Mathew’s chapter 5 (verses 3 to 11).
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”; “Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted”;“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”; “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”
Hmm, is this topic running somewhere on the board? I might be a good one to start.
In this case, blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted. I know that it means to mourn the passing of a loved one, but it may implying mourning a dream of a successful marriage. I am sure that many of you would not agree but I think God could comfort that mourning by a successful subsequent marriage. Seen it happen.
Let me explain it. In a marriage, the husband and the wife may not be always happy. Their happier days may be outnumbered by sorrowful days. When they mourn, they will be comforted by God. Mourning need not necessarily be on account of death. I am now quoting an excerpt from the life of a great woman of God who lived and died for God's glory in India. You will find her biography in the link named Blessed Woman of God in my signature below. You will find how she was comforted by God when she was persecuted by her husband and her in laws:
PERSECUTION AFTER MARRIAGE
When she was oppressed by her own people and became broken-hearted, the Lord comforted her by quoting many examples. The Lord told her that repaying good for good is human character, that repaying evil for good is the Devil's character and that repaying good for evil is the divine character. When He asked her to choose any of these three ways, she expressed her desire to choose the divine way.
Another example:
Jesus told her:
"As you look at the palm of your hand, so I look at the whole world. There is a swarm of aunts on your palm. As you can see all the ants on your palm, so I can see the spiritual condition of all the people in a minute. But I do not destroy them for their sins. However, it grieves My heart that My own people live without doing My will. Still I am embracing them with all the longsuffering and love"
One day, the husband of her elder sister refused to part with a box required by her. She murmured in her heart on his attitude and went home. The Holy Spirit convicted her by saying, ''Whether your brother-in-law refused to give you your own thing? Does not he have the power to give or not to give a thing, which belongs to him only? Your murmuring is not right''.
One night her husband returned home after work. At that time, she was worried about their constant state of poverty. Due to her mental depression, she murmured to her husband about their sufferings. Her husband lost his temper and told her, "you can die by falling into a well" Immediately she ran towards a well to commit suicide. At that time, a Hand prevented her from running to the well. That day was the Maundy Thursday, the day Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane. The nearby church was open. She went inside the church and started praying for hours together, shedding tears before the Lord. When she came home, her husband was still angry. He uttered the words, "The cursed one should be lost for ever" Then she heard the voice of Jesus telling her that in this world the love of human being including that of a husband was limited and that His love was eternal. He would never forsake her even if the loved ones had forsaken her.
Dear car2ner, you have observed,'' Hmm, is this topic running somewhere on the board..." Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted. Am I correct now? If the remarried couples mourn for their sins, God will comfort them and they will be blessed.
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/12/2007 12:00:47 PM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 12:08:27 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know which churches you are speaking of, but if this were REALLY true, then why is the divorce rate over 50% among confessing Christians---IF women, in fact, are "enduring" to the end in terrible marriages because they're being taught that in churches? The fact is: the same sins that are with us now, have ALWAYS been..........and families USED to stay intact. As a matter of fact, when women were much more submissive, marriages LASTED.
Not so. While it is true the same sins existed, women were dependent on the men for their support, so there were very little choices when they were mistreated. If your husband is the sole provider for you and the children, there is a great deal of fear to leave. How will you support yourself and these children apart from him? They stayed not because of covenant but because they really had limited choices. They couldn't call the cops and be taken seriously. They would go to the church who would inform them to be quiet, submit, and go back home to your husband. God will change him. No support like we have now. I am no feminist but I do appreciate that women can now receive support so that they don't have to "endure" mistreatment out of fear and lack of support.
The problem is that marriage is seen as, we didn't go to the courthouse and file the papers. Therefore it is not on the books, so it doesn't count in the stats. Te only thing statistics can do is register what is already on the books. There are no stats for marriages where the two live as if they are divorced. If "divorce" was seen as the state of the relationship and not just the paperwork, you would find that the church's divorce rate is much higher! The world doesn't play the game of living divorced while not divorcing. I believe their stats are accurate. Only Christians live divorced but don't divorce. Making it look like we are running neck and neck with the world, which of course is bad, but it's not the truth on our part. Recent events show us folks who lived separately for months doing their own thing. Then we're shocked when they say they are going to make their lives reality legal and divorce. Why are we surprised when they have been living divorced lives all this time?
Stats only represent what is true legally speaking. The false notion that marriages lasted even when it was terrible should really be cast down. It wasn't the marriage that lasted, it was the legal agreement that stood. The terms of these covenants were broken. The relationships did not have intimacy. Forget about the marriage reflecting the relationship between Christ and His church (husband called to love, feed and care for their wives as their own bodies, the wives called to respect and submit to their husbands). These were atmospheres of fear, false submission, abuse and no trust. If that's what you call marriages lasting, then I would suggest you reflect a little more on this.
I don't believe that women were ever much more submissive. It just looked that way because they had no choice. The only time you see true submission is when you have a choice. Where there is no choice there can be no true submission. Without choice there is nothing else you can do but what that person says.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 3:08:05 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
I don't know which churches you are speaking of, but if this were REALLY true, then why is the divorce rate over 50% among confessing Christians---IF women, in fact, are "enduring" to the end in terrible marriages because they're being taught that in churches? The fact is: the same sins that are with us now, have ALWAYS been..........and families USED to stay intact. As a matter of fact, when women were much more submissive, marriages LASTED.
Not so. While it is true the same sins existed, women were dependent on the men for their support, so there were very little choices when they were mistreated. If your husband is the sole provider for you and the children, there is a great deal of fear to leave. How will you support yourself and these children apart from him? They stayed not because of covenant but because they really had limited choices. They couldn't call the cops and be taken seriously. They would go to the church who would inform them to be quiet, submit, and go back home to your husband. God will change him. No support like we have now. I am no feminist but I do appreciate that women can now receive support so that they don't have to "endure" mistreatment out of fear and lack of support.
The statement was made that IN THIS GENERATION, churches are teaching women to submit, but are not holding men to the standard of loving their wives like Christ loves the church. I disputed that because the increased divorce, initiated by women, does not prove the statement made by hnt. Women are NOT being submissive in such cases. If the churches were, in fact, teaching submissiveness (biblical submissiveness, that is) we would not be seeing the utter destruction we see in families today that we are seeing. The simple fact is that many women are just getting tired........tired of their husband's affairs, tired of their husband's control over money, pushing for more sex, being controlling in many areas of life, not helping with kids yet dictating how the kids are to be treated/punished/rewarded, spending time with buddies, etc, etc, etc. So now, women, who are tired of all the "flesh" they see in their husbands, can now, due to decent jobs, leave their husbands and think themselves free to find another husband (possibly even someone else's husband).
You are right in that women sure do have much freedom today.............and where has it gotten us? Divorce rates that top 50%---in the church------and over 40million abortions in this country alone!! The numbers of extramarital affairs (speaking of married women) has exploded. Yes, women now have much more access to good paying jobs, they don't need to "depend" on their husbands as much financially, yet..........................many destructive things have occurred due to this "freedom". Where is God in all this? Where is the enemy in all this?
quote:
The problem is that marriage is seen as, we didn't go to the courthouse and file the papers. Therefore it is not on the books, so it doesn't count in the stats. Te only thing statistics can do is register what is already on the books. There are no stats for marriages where the two live as if they are divorced. If "divorce" was seen as the state of the relationship and not just the paperwork, you would find that the church's divorce rate is much higher!
The reason such lived as "divorced" is because one or both refuse to submit-----TO GOD!!!!!
quote:
Stats only represent what is true legally speaking. The false notion that marriages lasted even when it was terrible should really be cast down. It wasn't the marriage that lasted, it was the legal agreement that stood. The terms of these covenants were broken. The relationships did not have intimacy. Forget about the marriage reflecting the relationship between Christ and His church (husband called to love, feed and care for their wives as their own bodies, the wives called to respect and submit to their husbands). These were atmospheres of fear, false submission, abuse and no trust. If that's what you call marriages lasting, then I would suggest you reflect a little more on this.
Your flippant disregard to what GOD says is marriage is very disappointing. Try as you may, you cannot redefine marriage. It is as God has said it is............and it matters not if the people involved even "like" each other. Liking a spouse or even "feeling" romantic love does not make a marriage. Coming together in a lifelong commitment with God as the "joiner" of the two, makes a true marriage. Man cannot supercede or nullify what God has joined together based upon his/her own reasonings of WHY it should be put asunder. God, and only God can truly put asunder what HE joined together and He has spoken on that matter (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).
quote:
I don't believe that women were ever much more submissive. It just looked that way because they had no choice. The only time you see true submission is when you have a choice. Where there is no choice there can be no true submission. Without choice there is nothing else you can do but what that person says.
The divorce rate shows that there is no true submission-----to God.............forget the issue of wife to husband, husband to wife, people are not submitting themselves to GOD......and THAT is the ultimate issue/problem.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 3:24:16 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2539
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
You know what? I think we really need to stop focusing on "role" playing in regards to Eph. 5 with our marriages and instead focus on living our our lives FOR CHRIST. "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives within me"............that applies to husbands and wives alike. We need to be Jesus to WHOMEVER the Lord has allowed into our lives----the good, the bad, and the ugly. THIS is our TRUE calling.
Cindy, I think that this idea is something we can all agree on.
Prophet India, I don't understand "Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted. Am I correct now? If the remarried couples mourn for their sins, God will comfort them and they will be blessed". Please rephrase your question.
BTW, I have read your links. I usually take a look at the links a poster adds if they feel it is important to the discussion.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 3:31:11 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
So now, women, who are tired of all the "flesh" they see in their husbands, can now, due to decent jobs, leave their husbands and think themselves free to find another husband (possibly even someone else's husband).
Not sure what Christians you are dealing with but none of the Christians I have the pleasure of knowing who are divorced single or divorced remarried got "tired of the flesh". As a matter of fact, this forum should be proof that most women do not do that. There are threads all the time of women who deal with a lot of flesh and still desire for the marriage to work only to have their husbands continue in sin and walk out on them or continue abusing. The same happens to men. This statement, in my opinion, reflects a very poor attitude towards the family of God.
quote:
You are right in that women sure do have much freedom today.............and where has it gotten us? Divorce rates that top 50%---in the church------and over 40million abortions in this country alone!! The numbers of extramarital affairs (speaking of married women) has exploded. Yes, women now have much more access to good paying jobs, they don't need to "depend" on their husbands as much financially, yet..........................many destructive things have occurred due to this "freedom". Where is God in all this? Where is the enemy in all this? IT is true that many women who have not been saved yet, do these things but as I said, the Christian men and women that I know, do not and they are just as free.
quote:
The reason such lived as "divorced" is because one or both refuse to submit-----TO GOD!!!!!
I'm sure that's true because that unyielding nature is what breaks the marriage covenant. The women I have encountered are living this way because their husbands refuse to submit. Then they run across this foolish doctrine and their bondage remains. The man is off doing whatever he will while they sit chained to him. 
quote:
The divorce rate shows that there is no true submission-----to God.............forget the issue of wife to husband, husband to wife, people are not submitting themselves to GOD......and THAT is the ultimate issue/problem.
Scripture says that divorce was allowed due to the hardness of men's hearts. It was the remedy for men./women who were victims of their spouses hard-heartedness. It was not a reflection of the faithful spouse's heart condition and this is but one error this doctrine is built on.
The Bible specifically calls Joseph an (honorable, just, kind-hearted, upright, perfect) righteous man and he had in mind to put Mary away (divorce her) secretly because he thought she had been with another man during their betrothal. He did not want to expose her to public disgrace. There was no question that divorce was in order under these circumstances. The issue was how so that she wouldn't be shamed. NT Scripture does not accuse Joseph of being hard-hearted for looking to divorce her nor should you accuse any person divorcing of being hard-hearted (a judgment of their heart condition before God) if they find themselves in this situation because you simply do not know. You are quite wrong in this!
quote:
So now, women, who are tired of all the "flesh" they see in their husbands, can now, due to decent jobs, leave their husbands and think themselves free to find another husband (possibly even someone else's husband).
The women who leave their husbands in order to find another man are indeed guilty of an adulterous posture but in cases of abuse for example, that is not why they leave. That goes for men and women. They flee abuse, whatever form it takes, period. Remarriage may happen or may not, but their motives for leaving was not of an adulterous nature and that needs to be recognized because God not only looks at what is going on externally but He, alone, sees the heart.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/12/2007 3:44:17 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 4:48:24 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Not sure what Christians you are dealing with but none of the Christians I have the pleasure of knowing who are divorced single or divorced remarried got "tired of the flesh". As a matter of fact, this forum should be proof that most women do not do that. There are threads all the time of women who deal with a lot of flesh and still desire for the marriage to work only to have their husbands continue in sin and walk out on them or continue abusing. The same happens to men. This statement, in my opinion, reflects a very poor attitude towards the family of God.
My statement accurately reflects the state of marriages that were joined by God.........many get tired of the "flesh" and give up (giving up and walking out/moving on, or giving up and NOT waiting are acts of the flesh too). Sinful flesh is the cause of ALL marital breakups.........and is the cause of ALL unbiblical remarriages.
quote:
IT is true that many women who have not been saved yet, do these things but as I said, the Christian men and women that I know, do not and they are just as free.
I know of "professing" Christian people that think it's quite ok to join themself with someone who is merely seperated from a spouse. To me, WALKING with Christ is evidence of one's place in the kingdom of God. Freedom, real freedom in Christ is to WALK like Him and not be bound to the sins of the world (including how one responds to sin against them). Freedom is being able to leave their spouse and move on because one has a good job, but choosing NOT to because their focus is on serving God, not man.
quote:
I'm sure that's true because that unyielding nature is what breaks the marriage covenant. The women I have encountered are living this way because their husbands refuse to submit. Then they run across this foolish doctrine and their bondage remains. The man is off doing whatever he will while they sit chained to him.
I'd be very interested to see scriptural evidence that an "unyielding nature" dissolves what God joined together. 
quote:
Scripture says that divorce was allowed due to the hardness of men's hearts.
WAS, is the key word here.
quote:
It was the remedy for men./women who were victims of their spouses hard-heartedness.
Yes, it WAS a remedy for the hard-hearted because they reject God's ways. However, read Jn. 3:19-21. Also, you twist who Jesus was speaking of in regards to divorce----He was speaking of the ones whose hearts were HARD as the ones who were doing the divorcing!!! The women did NOT divorce, so your assertion that divorce is for the "victims" is not biblically supported..........unless you wish to apply I Cor. 7:10-11 to that.
quote:
The Bible specifically calls Joseph an (honorable, just, kind-hearted, upright, perfect) righteous man and he had in mind to put Mary away (divorce her) secretly because he thought she had been with another man during their betrothal. He did not want to expose her to public disgrace. There was no question that divorce was in order under these circumstances.
It's very funny to me that you reject the betrothal customs of divorce (in regards to Mt. 19:9), yet you want to bring this passage up. Yes, Joseph WAS a just man/honorable man. Divorce WAS available for betrothal fornication because betrothal was BINDING (papers drawn up/signatures/dowry, etc). Before/when they came together, the marriage could be ANNULLED due to pre-marital fornication. Joseph was just in that he did not want to humiliate Mary or have her stoned. He wanted to put her away quietly. The Lord showed him that Mary was not unfaithful. Joseph was then told to take Mary as his wife (complete the marriage).
Can you explain how YOUR version of permissible divorce coincides with the betrothal custom of unfaithfulness BEFORE the marriage bed?
quote:
The women who leave their husbands in order to find another man are indeed guilty of an adulterous posture but in cases of abuse for example, that is not why they leave. That goes for men and women. They flee abuse, whatever form it takes, period.
And the Lord gave them instructions in such a case: "remain unmarried OR be reconciled". I Cor. 7:10-11.
quote:
Remarriage may happen or may not, but their motives for leaving was not of an adulterous nature and that needs to be recognized because God not only looks at what is going on externally but He, alone, sees the heart.
Many things start off innocently, but end up going in a whole different direction. I know a woman who claims her husband abused her, then she ended up taking another woman's husband (getting involved with him BEFORE he was divorced, even). Her heart when she left her husband may have initially been right(I have no way of knowing that), but was it right when she got involved with another woman's husband.............and fought to justify it? The road to hell is paved with many "good intentions/motives".
< Message edited by lastblast -- 9/12/2007 5:35:39 PM >
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 5:32:36 PM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
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lastblast,
I don't think anyone that believes in remarriage on this thread is supportive of women going after another women's husband. Maybe that's not what you're saying, the woman you know that did that probably didn't start off innocently.
I also don't believe that everyone that gets a divorce has it done casually.
I agree that feminism has caused a lot of problems, and some women just blame men for their irresponsible actions...with society condoning it.
I guess that's besides the point, but it was brought up earlier.
I don't understand how some posters say at one time that someone is misled on their beliefs, then seem to say that people are willingly disobeying God.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 5:38:45 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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Dealing with Hosea
Let's remember, we established that according to the OT, a man could lawfully divorce his wife for adultery whether that be during betrothal or after consummation. Hosea would have been perfectly within his right to divorce Gomer under these circumstances but in obedience to the express Word of the Lord to him, he did not. We must bear in mind that there was a reason the Lord gave this word to Hosea. His relationship to Gomer was to be symbolic of His relationship with wayward Israel. This was not the norm. God does not normally instruct any man or woman to marry a prostitute.
What is amazing even in this is that God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute! Many times I have read this passage and really glossed over this. If we were friends with Hosea and he told us the Lord instructed him to marry a prostitute, we would challenge him as to validity of the voice he heard. We would quickly tell him it was not God he heard. This just humbles me. So often we think we have God pegged and we can always determine how He is working in the earth. "This is God and this isn't God". We act as if we are so sure because we have some Scriptures under our belt. Quite arrogant...
Anyway, should we use this passage to teach that all marriages, for all time, where adultery has been committed, should be reconciled?
Let's notice that Hosea is told to marry a prostitute. That is the express and specific word of the Lord to him. None of us would go to the corner and choose a prostitute to marry. When we marry, we expect and vow to be sexually faithful to our spouse. If we chose a prostitute to marry, it would be foolish to expect this. The vow would make no sense. Hosea had absolutely no expectation that this woman would be true to the vow of sexual faithfulness.
We cannot compare this to our marriage with God at all because He expects faithfulness from us when we have made the decision to commit our lives to Him. Yes, we fall short, but we are expected to repent and return to the path of godly living. We actually expect faithfulness from God as well! When we pray we recount His promises to us. We look in eager expectation for Him to fulfill His Word to us. This is our covenant agreement both in our marriage to the Lord and our marriages to one another and we are to do nothing to break our covenants (acts of unfaithfulness).
God has not given any of us an express word to marry a prostitute. This is the first reason I do not accept using this passage to support this doctrine. It wouldn't apply to us from the beginning. It's one thing to marry a known adulterer. You would be foolish to have an expectation of faithfulness. It is quite another to marry another "believer" who then turns away from the Lord and commits adultery with no heart/mind to repent. This was not Hosea's situation. Hosea would not have willingly married a prostitute had it not been for the Lord's commanding him to do so.
Second critical point is that there was no divorce between them. At no time did Hosea divorce Gomer. If he did that would not have been in accordance to the plan of God to use this as a symbol of His relationship with Israel. Hosea, may have had in mind to divorce her but because of a Word from the Lord, he did not.
The point here is that we find two things happening in the OT. We find men lawfully divorcing their wives on account of adultery (and other grounds). We also find this occassion of a man staying married to the women who committed adultery. Neither was unlawful to do based on the Word of the Lord. One cannot use Hosea as a support for staying marriage and disregard the rest of the OT which makes it clear that valid divorces occurred for other legit reasons as discussed in earlier post.
In Hosea we find the Lord offering forgiveness to Israel in spite of her adulteries which is great, but was the marriage reconciled or was Israel ultimately divorced? Isaiah made it clear it was she who caused the divorce. It was her unrepentant rebellion. The Lord says,
"...and for your transgressions is your mother put away (divorced)."
The Lord through Jeremiah said it this way,
"I sent unfaithful Israel away because of her adultery and that I gave Israel her divorce papers"
This position of reconciliation and cutting off is found throughout Scripture. One verse shows both sides of the Lord.
Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
So the point here once again is to use the whole of Scripture and not take one passage which appears to support this doctrine while neglecting all the other text which speaks to divorce and in some cases remarriage especially in the OT.
That is probably my biggest beef with this doctrine. She stands on the OT claiming it supports her position when through careful study it is very obvious the OT doesn't support her and in fact, as I said before, exposes her as utterly false.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/12/2007 8:58:25 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 5:45:22 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
lastblast,
I don't think anyone that believes in remarriage on this thread is supportive of women going after another women's husband. Maybe that's not what you're saying, the woman you know that did that probably didn't start off innocently.
Yes, I'm finally starting to see that, Dragonwing. The woman I mentioned, I thought was merely a "wounded" person making some very ungodly decisions based upon past hurt. However, it is very possible she is not quite so "innocent" as she portrayed herself to me.
quote:
I also don't believe that everyone that gets a divorce has it done casually.
Oh, I never stated that. I believe some divorces are NOT casually done in the least bit. Done out of ignorance...........following unGodly counsel, etc, yes, but not casually.
quote:
I agree that feminism has caused a lot of problems, and some women just blame men for their irresponsible actions...with society condoning it.
I guess that's besides the point, but it was brought up earlier.
Yes, I am in full agreement with you. There are some elements of the feminist movement that were right to come to the forefront and be dealt with/changed. However, like many other things in this life, when change comes, sometimes the overall changes that occur are MORE destructive than what needed to be changed in the first place.
quote:
I don't understand how some posters say at one time that someone is misled on their beliefs, then seem to say that people are willingly disobeying God.
Probably because some of us have witnessed those who are WILLINGLY disobeying God..........the woman in my post, case in point. She fought tooth and nail to justify being with another woman's husband PRIOR to any divorce taking place, KNOWING the wife wanted her marriage to work. She, to me, is a WICKED woman. Knowing what she has done probably has "tainted" me a bit, but I"m working on that----and truly do know that MANY ignorantly without malice, enter into relationships they do not know are adulterous(biblically speaking). Thanks for bearing with me, dragonwing. 
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 6:14:25 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I know of "professing" Christian people that think it's quite ok to join themself with someone who is merely seperated from a spouse.
Let me say something about this briefly and speaking in principle. One of the issues Paul dealt with regarding divorce and remarriage was the woman who had been deserted by her husband or perhaps had died and she did know it. Since a man could only effect a divorce, the problem would be that she could not be set free (the plight of the Agunah). Paul's declaration for the women to be set free from bondage was not because she had no way of obtaining a Get but she was without husband. You can study out the Jewish laws which give insight into how they handled this very real problem. The women or men were declared free without the Get. Now, I certainly do not advise this in our day and age due to the chaos it would create, so I will always support doing things legally.
You say divorce does nothing to the relationship so what's it to you if the person joins with another before the judge's decree or after? What does that have to do with this discussion? As far as your concerned they are still married and it's adultery whether they are actually legally divorced or not, so what's your point?
quote:
I'd be very interested to see scriptural evidence that an "unyielding nature" dissolves what God joined together.
Read Jeremiah 3 and Isaiah 50
quote:
Yes, it WAS a remedy for the hard-hearted because they reject God's ways.
That is not correct. The men were allowed to divorce their wives as a protection to the mistreated wives.
quote:
He was speaking of the ones whose hearts were HARD as the ones who were doing the divorcing!!!
True but the issue was why they were divorcing their wives as was the issue all throughout the OT. The point wasn't about the divorce itself because there were legit reasons to divorce. The issue was one of the heart which was adulterous. Jesus spoke to this in Matthew 5:28. It was the desire to be with another woman other than their spouse (the adulterous heart) which led to them divorcing their wives for any reason at all. It all goes together. Joseph's divorce was not because he desired another woman but because he believed she had been unfaithful. In the same way, many of your brothers and sisters did not divorce with an adulterous heart (looking to hook up with another) but rather they divorced due to unfaithfulness or they were faithful and were divorced.
quote:
The women did NOT divorce, so your assertion that divorce is for the "victims" is not biblically supported..........unless you wish to apply I Cor. 7:10-11 to that.
Research the purpose of the divorce law enacted in the OT and you will understand that it was to protect those who were divorced.
quote:
It's very funny to me that you reject the betrothal customs of divorce (in regards to Mt. 19:9), yet you want to bring this passage up.
I have never rejected the betrothal customs. If you have been reading my conversation with prophet_india, that is very clear. What I reject is that this was the only ground for divorce and I have shown that through Scripture.
quote:
I know a woman who claims her husband abused her, then she ended up taking another woman's husband (getting involved with him BEFORE he was divorced, even). Her heart when she left her husband may have initially been right(I have no way of knowing that), but was it right when she got involved with another woman's husband.............and fought to justify it? The road to hell is paved with many "good intentions/motives".
Whatever this woman has done is between her and the Lord, not you. One thing I do know and believe is that God forgives even this, just as he forgives those who may have divorced wrongly and remarried wrongly. I'm sure if she has sought His forgiveness, He has forgiven her. I won't stand in judgment of her and neither should you in the same way that Christ didn't stand in judgment of the women caught in adultery. It's not your place. Once again, what does that have to do with this discussion?
I can only tell you that I do not place that much value on a marriage certificate or divorce papers but I do know they both have great legal power. Frankly it's clear you don't place any value on them either. You don't believe legal remarriage is legit and binding nor do you believe legal divorce severs the marriage bond. Neither you nor I elevate these things higher than we ought.
Let me also address your remark about the woman claiming abuse. In light of recent events I think it should be addressed briefly. Very few Christian men/women who love the Lord will deceive about this and when they divorce citing abuse, you can be sure it was much worse than anything made public. Be careful how you judge because you just don't know another man or woman's situation. I have said this before and I will say it again, none of us have the right to judge another person's marriage or divorce because only they and the Lord know the whole truth. It is an exercise in arrogance to think that because you get a portion of the story from one party means you know the truth. Especially in cases where abuse is. I find this to be true more times than not so I strive to reserve judgment because of my limited knowledge. Therefore in matters of divorce and remarriage Cindy, you would do well to do so also.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/13/2007 9:41:03 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2007 8:02:59 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes, I'm finally starting to see that, Dragonwing. The woman I mentioned, I thought was merely a "wounded" person making some very ungodly decisions based upon past hurt. However, it is very possible she is not quite so "innocent" as she portrayed herself to me.
It has been my experience that unless you know the details most times your assessment of the situation and/or the people is usually quite wrong. Case in point would be recent events. Everybody has a opinion as to the Weeks remarriage/divorce but how many know these people? I'm sure very few. I bring this up because many times even in this thread, this doctrine refuses to acknowledge the legitimate causes of divorce. It presumes to know that every divorce and remarriage is invalid even though she (the doctrine) has no idea what happened.
You probably don't even know the true details concerning what led up to the divorce in the situation your talking about. For that matter you probably dont' know the details concerning most of the situations you address in this thread and others. That's not a bust on you but it's said to help you understand that sometimes you just don't know what your talking about . Assuming and making a judgment call based on the assumption is human nature. The problem is when you start to instruct people dealing with real life serious marital issues based on your assumptions from the little bit they may post on a thread here. I'm sure we've all been guilty of doing that from time to time and have to correct ourselves realizing that only God knows the absolute truth and we only know what those involved have chosen to share sparingly with us.
quote:
Probably because some of us have witnessed those who are WILLINGLY disobeying God..........the woman in my post, case in point. She fought tooth and nail to justify being with another woman's husband PRIOR to any divorce taking place, KNOWING the wife wanted her marriage to work. She, to me, is a WICKED woman. Knowing what she has done probably has "tainted" me a bit, but I"m working on that----and truly do know that MANY ignorantly without malice, enter into relationships they do not know are adulterous(biblically speaking).
Well, if the couple got divorced then that means the husband didn't desire reconciliation. If he's a Christian and this was his stand, then, giving the benefit of the doubt, chances are great the marriage must have been very bad because as I have stated, very few Christians, at least those I know who have divorced, Lord lovin Christians, are going to just get up one day and walk away from a marriage when the spouse may be bad but not intolerable. Take the case of a wife who physically abuses her husband. Who knows? That may be what was going on in the case you mentioned but unless they tell you, you have no way of knowing that. In most cases, the abuser does want to be reconciled but refuses to get help with their issues. This is why the spouse eventually does leave and may ultimately divorce. They "get better" for a little while and go right back to their poor behavior. I find that your view is quick to take the side of the offender and completely ignore the offended. That's very typical in the world and sadly it's the same in the church.
If your tainted by what you think you know, maybe that's why you can't objectively just take the Scriptures and deal with them as they are addressed in this thread. That's what I talked about before. People's perceptions and experiences affect how they view things - even the Bible.
Wicked woman?  Be careful. Self-righteousness is peeking out  . Lest you forget we are all off yhe mark in this game and grace covers all of us and the ways we offend God when we seek out the Lord with a broken and contrite heart. We can all recount some wickedness we have done and probably still do. Praise God for His grace and mercy and that we are not going to be judged by men but by Jesus. 
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/12/2007 8:12:16 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2007 7:19:31 AM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
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lastblast,
Thank you for your kind comment that I was bearing with you. I didn't see it that way, but it's nice to hear. I know we disagree on the subject, but there's always a good way to discuss it.
It's a little off subject, but I did think about the feminist stuff for a moment last night. I was watching something about how women have been so desperate for a baby that they have attacked a pregnant women to get a baby (I'm pregnant right now, close to the due date!). It's happened a couple of times in my area, a couple of years ago a woman was murdered.
Anyway, with interviewing a psychologist, she said that these women are sometimes driven by being with someone that wants a child so bad...it drives them to do these things. Maybe I blew it out of proportion in my mind, but I thought you can't blame a guy for the fact that you did something that horrific!
I would have a hard time dealing with someone that went after another man's husband. Seeing situations like that, what I saw on TV, and others can test us to where we know we need God's understanding. How fallable (sp?) we are! 
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2007 11:42:18 PM
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fromdeathtolife
Posts: 17
Joined: 6/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
we are all off the mark in this game and grace covers all of us and the ways we offend God when we seek out the Lord with a broken and contrite heart. We can all recount some wickedness we have done and probably still do. Praise God for His grace and mercy and that we are not going to be judged by men but by Jesus.
pickupyourmat,
I am in total agreement with you on the quote above. I do agree with lastblast, however, that all remarriage is adultery and therefore a sin. I do think that many sincere Christians are remarried and did so out of ignorance. Most pastors teach that remarriage is fine. Many believers are being misled on this issue. I do want to ask you one question especially since you quoted Jesus when it comes to the so called "exception clause". Is there anywhere else in New Testament scripture where "the exception clause" is mentioned? And if so, does it apply to the betrothal period or to marriage? The reason I ask is because the Greek word used in the verse you quoted about the reason Joseph wanted to put away Mary is "porneia" which translates fornication. If you are married how can you fornicate and how can you apply this verse to marriage when the word used means fornicate and not adultery?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:18:42 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
quote:
I don't know which churches you are speaking of, but if this were REALLY true, then why is the divorce rate over 50% among confessing Christians---IF women, in fact, are "enduring" to the end in terrible marriages because they're being taught that in churches? The fact is: the same sins that are with us now, have ALWAYS been..........and families USED to stay intact. As a matter of fact, when women were much more submissive, marriages LASTED.
Not so. While it is true the same sins existed, women were dependent on the men for their support, so there were very little choices when they were mistreated. If your husband is the sole provider for you and the children, there is a great deal of fear to leave. How will you support yourself and these children apart from him? They stayed not because of covenant but because they really had limited choices. They couldn't call the cops and be taken seriously. They would go to the church who would inform them to be quiet, submit, and go back home to your husband. God will change him. No support like we have now. I am no feminist but I do appreciate that women can now receive support so that they don't have to "endure" mistreatment out of fear and lack of support.
The statement was made that IN THIS GENERATION, churches are teaching women to submit, but are not holding men to the standard of loving their wives like Christ loves the church. I disputed that because the increased divorce, initiated by women, does not prove the statement made by hnt. Women are NOT being submissive in such cases. If the churches were, in fact, teaching submissiveness (biblical submissiveness, that is) we would not be seeing the utter destruction we see in families today that we are seeing. The simple fact is that many women are just getting tired........tired of their husband's affairs, tired of their husband's control over money, pushing for more sex, being controlling in many areas of life, not helping with kids yet dictating how the kids are to be treated/punished/rewarded, spending time with buddies, etc, etc, etc. So now, women, who are tired of all the "flesh" they see in their husbands, can now, due to decent jobs, leave their husbands and think themselves free to find another husband (possibly even someone else's husband).
You are right in that women sure do have much freedom today.............and where has it gotten us? Divorce rates that top 50%---in the church------and over 40million abortions in this country alone!! The numbers of extramarital affairs (speaking of married women) has exploded. Yes, women now have much more access to good paying jobs, they don't need to "depend" on their husbands as much financially, yet..........................many destructive things have occurred due to this "freedom". Where is God in all this? Where is the enemy in all this?
quote:
The problem is that marriage is seen as, we didn't go to the courthouse and file the papers. Therefore it is not on the books, so it doesn't count in the stats. Te only thing statistics can do is register what is already on the books. There are no stats for marriages where the two live as if they are divorced. If "divorce" was seen as the state of the relationship and not just the paperwork, you would find that the church's divorce rate is much higher!
The reason such lived as "divorced" is because one or both refuse to submit-----TO GOD!!!!!
quote:
Stats only represent what is true legally speaking. The false notion that marriages lasted even when it was terrible should really be cast down. It wasn't the marriage that lasted, it was the legal agreement that stood. The terms of these covenants were broken. The relationships did not have intimacy. Forget about the marriage reflecting the relationship between Christ and His church (husband called to love, feed and care for their wives as their own bodies, the wives called to respect and submit to their husbands). These were atmospheres of fear, false submission, abuse and no trust. If that's what you call marriages lasting, then I would suggest you reflect a little more on this.
Your flippant disregard to what GOD says is marriage is very disappointing. Try as you may, you cannot redefine marriage. It is as God has said it is............and it matters not if the people involved even "like" each other. Liking a spouse or even "feeling" romantic love does not make a marriage. Coming together in a lifelong commitment with God as the "joiner" of the two, makes a true marriage. Man cannot supercede or nullify what God has joined together based upon his/her own reasonings of WHY it should be put asunder. God, and only God can truly put asunder what HE joined together and He has spoken on that matter (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).
quote:
I don't believe that women were ever much more submissive. It just looked that way because they had no choice. The only time you see true submission is when you have a choice. Where there is no choice there can be no true submission. Without choice there is nothing else you can do but what that person says.
The divorce rate shows that there is no true submission-----to God.............forget the issue of wife to husband, husband to wife, people are not submitting themselves to GOD......and THAT is the ultimate issue/problem.
Yes, yes, yes last blast....I appreciate what you said. Women do think of themselves as "above" the idea of honoring vows to God. They have "freedom" to divorce, to "control" their circumstances up to a point, and men who are in rebellion are taking advantage of this, joining with women who have left their husbands and so bringing further judgement according to God's word.
I think there is more than submission in the picture. I think women were also more concerned about their outcome of their children's lives. They were sacrificial about their own "happiness" so their kids could make out better futures. Our popular, "me" focused culture would pooh pooh this kind of sacrificial attitude in women now, but then, we knew it was better to put up and to find ways to honor our vows. Also, when men were unfaithful, since society was less tolerant than now, they seemed to be more afraid of being found out.
Now, how many men are entrapped by the kind of mental adultery Jesus denounced, through internet portals to gross and perverse sexuality? How many men who are involved in church and praying for people on Sunday? Was that level of involvement in adultery so available 24/7 in the past? Was it so easy to "get away with it"?
No one will get away with sin. God cannot overlook it. He is holy and there is no darkness in Him. If we want to be forgiven of the sins of adultery, or pornography adultery, or lust, or leaving our callings to rebel against God, we must confess it and turn completely away from it, and renounce it never to be welcomed again.
We must return to obedience to the Lord.
There is also so much less of what I call "good" shame. The shame of conviction of knowing what you are doing is wrong. Perhaps I might say that consciences are more seared, and people have justified what they knew was wrong before. It is rebellion, whether through lack of submission to God, husband, or a stronghold of thinking that says,
"HEY GOD! I am not gonna take this stuff anymore, so no matter what YOU say about hating divorce, I am getting out!"
It is very sad due to all of the consequences of breaking/walking away from vows/covenant to God.
I highlighted what you said because of my deep and abiding agreement with you. Our world has tried to do many things to marriage, but you have spoken well of the fact that no matter how much we try to make into what it is not, God's revelation in His Word will stand forever and that truth will never be destroyed.
We do need to be concerned about our own complicity in the attempt to do "covenant-breaking"
A well known voice for revival and intercession brings up this serious agreement we have made with the enemy of our souls and families by entering into efforts to break up marriages, our own, or other's.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdgumAbRLeU&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w66SGi7-TbQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPOpz4Prnls&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGypzO9CVr0&mode=related&search=
Above is a series of teachings by Dutch Sheets, in addressing our nation's sins and complicity with the plans of the evil one to bring destruction to our callings, our blessings and our children's and grandchildren's legacies. Are we teaching our kids to keep covenant with God, or with our mates, or with each other? Are we expecting our children to grow up and walk with God and keep covenant with Him while we are modeling a walking away from our covenant vows? How can they believe that God is serious if we are not showing them that in our lives?
Matthew 24 tells us explicitly that in the latter times the love of many will grow cold. Jesus tells us that people will hate and betray one another. This can be husbands of wives. He does not tell us that it is because we are not helping women leave "bad" husbands enough. He does not tell us to give up on people, not at all. But He tells us that he who endures to the end (in obeying what He commands) will be saved.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:39:59 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
lastblast,
I don't think anyone that believes in remarriage on this thread is supportive of women going after another women's husband. Maybe that's not what you're saying, the woman you know that did that probably didn't start off innocently.
I also don't believe that everyone that gets a divorce has it done casually.
I agree that feminism has caused a lot of problems, and some women just blame men for their irresponsible actions...with society condoning it.
I guess that's besides the point, but it was brought up earlier.
I don't understand how some posters say at one time that someone is misled on their beliefs, then seem to say that people are willingly disobeying God.
I think that there are people who believe that once a man or woman makes a decision to divorce, that is to be "honored" even if it is known to be unlawful or unjustified. So if a head decision is made, the openness to marrying another may be right there, and to many, divorced people are fair game for their new marriage pool, though Jesus condemns this.
Even if a divorce was done under great anguish of soul and duress, it is thought to be "okay" in the bigger picture. We are called to fight that which fights against us, and to resist the evil of divorce. We are NOT called to fight each other.
Feminism has caused problems, but so has the sexual revolution. So has the internet (a BIG portal to evil when it comes to sexual perversion), so has lax perversion laws (prostitution was not legal or tolerated as readily in entire cities in the past), so has our society's belief that kids do just fine with one parent. So has the lack of support and the fragmentation of the bonds in extended family. So has the shortage of "good' shame. So has the acceptance of the medical profession of abortion being "therapeutic" (shudder)
It is so much more than feminism. I think these things are much like the manifestation of the same evils.
Unfortunately, as one goes down a path, it can get slippery-er and slippery-er until they are in total darkness......
You could start out with offense. Then offense leads to bitterness. Then this bitterness grows bigger and hardens a heart. Then this hard heart begins to be affected by the lies of the enemy...about their spouse, about their own lives and, most importantly, about God.
The enemy could say........
"Did God REALLY say........?" (fill in the blank from God's if this........, then this......principles/commands
"God understands and doesn't want you to suffer" (where is this in our Bible???)
"He will understand....you just couldn't take it!" (you get to create your limit, thereby limiting God)
or any number of things that will get one to begin to "give up" or resign oneself to "nothing will ever change". This is likely a death sentence to their own sense of duty at this point.
Pretty soon, the hard heart, combined with the resignation is a potent environment to be open to deception. The deception of sin.
pretty soon, one could be defending the sin of trying to break apart what God joined, (theirs or someone else's) and pretty soon, that justification could seem more and more "right". That is how so many have come to the current confusion and deception.
We have tolerated what has brought destruction to us.
Lord, forgive us. Soften hearts, bring us back to a clear understanding of What You Want for marriage. help us to walk out our obedience to our vows, even if we aren't sure how to honor one who seems to want to rebel towards you and betray us. Deliver our families from the deception and justification of sin, in all of its manifestations.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 2:01:07 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
I will say this because I believe it to be true: in the most conservative of churches---those which teach BIBLICAL submission of wives and teach the BIBLICAL sacrificial love of husbands for their wives, you will find a much LOWER divorce rate than you will find in many liberal, charismatic churches. Why? Because of obedience to the Word----in spite of the actions of their spouses.
In many liberal, charismatic churches you will find that EXPERIENCES/FEELINGS rule over the Word of God----and because of this a VERY high divorce/remarriage rate. I know because when I came to faith in Christ, I was in a charismatic church and the divorce/remarriage rate was MUCH higher than in the conservative churches who were much more WORD focused/obedience focused that I attended later on. Did "flesh" come into play in the marriages in both Churches? Yes, but I find a much stronger teaching on SELF entitlement in charismatic churches than I find in many of the most conservative churches.........and again, I say this is MY opinion based upon what I have personally experienced in attending/being very involved in various types of churches.
MOST of the biggest scandals have come from those churches who are very FLESHLY based (relationships/money, etc)----I wont' name any names, but two HUGE scandals in the news lately are coming from those ministries who are VERY focused on worldly possessions........and the flashing of those possessions. Did Jesus behave in such a manner while He walked the earth, nor did any of His disciples?
You know what? I think we really need to stop focusing on "role" playing in regards to Eph. 5 with our marriages and instead focus on living our our lives FOR CHRIST. "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives within me"............that applies to husbands and wives alike. We need to be Jesus to WHOMEVER the Lord has allowed into our lives----the good, the bad, and the ugly. THIS is our TRUE calling.
Preach it sister!!!!
It is terribly sad to see the lack of obedience in charismatic churches.
I want to say that due to my experience with different churches, I think the reason is not just "feelings" focus, but also an overemphasis on personal prophecy, and an unfortunate under emphasis on knowing God's Word. In the Bible, we can KNOW His will on so many things in such a clear way, we do not need a personal prophecy to know what to do. This is so true in marriage, its covenantal nature and marriage problems.
I am sad to say that there are many who are "personally" prophesying that people should leave people and marry others....and I believe are being deceived through their flesh.
I am so sad to say that there is much tickling of itching ears in the charismatic, pentacostal, fourth wave churches due to this lack of keeping God's word.
I believe if there could be clear teaching and exhortation upon what His Word says and what it is to be used for (life and godliness), some who are greatly enthusiastic for God in healing and HIs other gifts could begin to experience the joy and clarity of obedience in this important area.
I do think it will change though, because I believe the Holy Spirit is revealing and exposing sin in the church, for the sake of restoring and rebuilding those who are called by His name. He is kind to give opportunities to repent to the most hardened of us sinners.
Maybe even though great duress, and suffering....
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 2:13:23 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”; “Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted”;“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”; “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”
Dear prophet_india,
I can thank you much for this verse! I have seen this comfort, for myself and for others. I have seen this hunger and thirst for righteousness and the filling of God for their desire to please Him. And I know this implies also future fulfillment in the time when we will be with the Lord and all of our needs will be fulfilled.
This life is not "IT".
There is a great blessing in being in the fellowship of Christ's sufferings, as you have mentioned this blessed woman of God. She was a light in the midst of her suffering for righteousness' sake.
I do understand that a couple in a remarriage may, if led to repent for their unlawful union, grieve and it can be that they would recieve comfort for their mourning.
Also, for all those that mourn and suffer due to the unrighteousness of their spouses, there is comfort for them. There is joy in obeying the Lord in not returning evil for evil. There is joy in obeying the Lord re: their marriage vows, to remain faithful and not go into sin.
As in the life of the sister you mention. Thank you for these verses.
I think the grieving can also be for the sins of our nation....
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 8:04:41 AM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
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fromdeathtolife,
When I've looked up "poneia" in Strong's concordance, it also means adultery.
blessednw,
I'm not quite sure how to respond to some of your comments. I noticed in a previous post you said something along the lines that an offended spouse wants to have power (you had that word in caps) over the one that cheated on them.
Maybe that's the way the one that cheated on them sees it, I don't know. I've heard that someone that commits adultery in a marriage has a strong sense of shame, so maybe they see it as a power struggle when the offended spouse does something.
I honestly don't know how to respond
to your most recent post where you quoted what I addressed to lastblast.
You say we've tolerated what has caused destruction to us. Adultery in a marriage is destructive (I'm talking about vows being broken, not an "adulterous remarriage"), and you are saying that is to be tolerated.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 12:12:12 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Thank you for your kind comment that I was bearing with you. I didn't see it that way, but it's nice to hear. I know we disagree on the subject, but there's always a good way to discuss it.
I agree with you. I know I can get passionate at times about this issue, being that there is so much destruction/hurt involved when we disobey the Lord. I truly do want to be a vehicle of the Lord's for change, but realize sometimes that my "passion" can get the best of me in regards to how I may dialogue. I really did want to thank you for bearing with me, if that was the case in our dialogue(me being "too" passionate  ).
quote:
It's a little off subject, but I did think about the feminist stuff for a moment last night. I was watching something about how women have been so desperate for a baby that they have attacked a pregnant women to get a baby (I'm pregnant right now, close to the due date!). It's happened a couple of times in my area, a couple of years ago a woman was murdered.
Anyway, with interviewing a psychologist, she said that these women are sometimes driven by being with someone that wants a child so bad...it drives them to do these things. Maybe I blew it out of proportion in my mind, but I thought you can't blame a guy for the fact that you did something that horrific!
Yes, it seems that "trend" of killing a pregnant/new mom and taking the baby or just outright kidnapping, is a growing problem. My mind cannot even comprehend doing such a thing, but it really is sin at work.......and sin can be a horrible thing to behold.
Concerning the feminist movement, it has done incredible damage to women without even realizing it. To "fight" for the right to murder one's own baby has, in effect, caused MEN to view women differently----and I believe this has had a HUGE impact on marriage and the roles of marriage........and the value of each person in the marriage. Many women are frustrated when a man will not care for his own children, yet, what are men in this society seeing----- Women who demand their right to kill their unborn children!! Women are supposed to be the nurturers of children, yet this is not what they are seeing with the feminist movement. Mixed messages. On one hand, some women are VALUING the life of a child, on the other, women are demanding they be able to kill their own flesh and blood. The feminist movement has also taken from man the desire to PROTECT the woman, to put her on a pedestal----instead, many women today want to be treated as a MAN------don't want the doors opened for them, don't want the man to pay for their meals, etc, etc.
The truth was in the past, even if a wife wasn't always treated the best, she was THE WIFE. If a husband had a woman on the side, she was the "other woman"...........a demeaning role, something much less than THE WIFE. Feminism has all but destroyed that, except in Godly homes, where the wife IS a special role, and the husband IS looked upon as the "provider/protector"......someone to be honored, even in his imperfection. I am hoping that many women will see the error of the feminist movement and reject it----to understand that GOD gave them a special place in life/marriage and that a "fight" will not give us what is "good"..........it will, and already has, proven to be detrimental to marriages/families.
quote:
I would have a hard time dealing with someone that went after another man's husband. Seeing situations like that, what I saw on TV, and others can test us to where we know we need God's understanding. How fallable (sp?) we are!
Yes, it has been hard dealing with such a woman who confesses to be a Christian. It is my hope that she and he(the husband of the 1st wife) will see the adultery in their lives for what it is........for what Jesus said it was..........and they will see the other woman (the lawful wife) as not perfect either, but one whom was wronged in this situation..........a sister in the Lord, a wife, a mother. You are right also that we need the Lord to give us understanding, patience, and love..........because we all are fallible, and if we don't guard ourselves, we can fall into the same sins we watch others get themselves into......Blessings.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 12:24:05 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
Dealing with Hosea
Let's remember, we established that according to the OT, a man could lawfully divorce his wife for adultery whether that be during betrothal or after consummation. Hosea would have been perfectly within his right to divorce Gomer under these circumstances but in obedience to the express Word of the Lord to him, he did not. We must bear in mind that there was a reason the Lord gave this word to Hosea. His relationship to Gomer was to be symbolic of His relationship with wayward Israel. This was not the norm. God does not normally instruct any man or woman to marry a prostitute.
There are many people who had married prostitutes and rehabilitated them by showing compassion on them. God loves prostitutes also because Jesus died for them also on the Cross. A prostitute can be married and rehabilitated. But a divorcee cannot be married during the life time of his/her spouse.
quote:
What is amazing even in this is that God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute! Many times I have read this passage and really glossed over this. If we were friends with Hosea and he told us the Lord instructed him to marry a prostitute, we would challenge him as to validity of the voice he heard. We would quickly tell him it was not God he heard. This just humbles me. So often we think we have God pegged and we can always determine how He is working in the earth. "This is God and this isn't God". We act as if we are so sure because we have some Scriptures under our belt. Quite arrogant...
Anyway, should we use this passage to teach that all marriages, for all time, where adultery has been committed, should be reconciled?
There was nothing abnormal in God asking Hosea to marry a prostitute. God never asked any old testament saint to marry a divorcee. The exception was given to the men of Israel to marry women divorced by their first husbands due to some uncleaness.
quote:
Let's notice that Hosea is told to marry a prostitute. That is the express and specific word of the Lord to him. None of us would go to the corner and choose a prostitute to marry. When we marry, we expect and vow to be sexually faithful to our spouse. If we chose a prostitute to marry, it would be foolish to expect this. The vow would make no sense. Hosea had absolutely no expectation that this woman would be true to the vow of sexual faithfulness.
Please note that when a man marries a prostitute, the latter becomes his wife. She is no longer a prostitute at all. A prostitute is one who is not married to any man. After marriage, the prostitute who has not repented of her past sins may become a prostitute by forsaking her husband. Do you now remember the post wherein I had spoken about the samaritan woman who had 5 husbands? Even during marriage, the prostitute also makes the vow if it is a Christian marriage. How can you say that Hosea had absolutely no expectation that this woman would be true to the vow of sexual faithfuless? On what basis, you stated like this?
Let us note that in Hosea 3:2, Hosea said unto her, ''Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man........'' This shows very clearly that even the prostitute after marriage should not be for another man. She was supposed to be the wife of one man only.
quote:
We cannot compare this to our marriage with God at all because He expects faithfulness from us when we have made the decision to commit our lives to Him. Yes, we fall short, but we are expected to repent and return to the path of godly living. We actually expect faithfulness from God as well! When we pray we recount His promises to us. We look in eager expectation for Him to fulfill His Word to us. This is our covenant agreement both in our marriage to the Lord and our marriages to one another and we are to do nothing to break our covenants (acts of unfaithfulness).
Our marriage with God has not yet taken place. We are betrothed to Him and not yet married. Yes, He wants us to be faithful to Him. But are we faithful to Him? It is easier said than done.
quote:
God has not given any of us an express word to marry a prostitute. This is the first reason I do not accept using this passage to support this doctrine. It wouldn't apply to us from the beginning. It's one thing to marry a known adulterer. You would be foolish to have an expectation of faithfulness. It is quite another to marry another "believer" who then turns away from the Lord and commits adultery with no heart/mind to repent. This was not Hosea's situation. Hosea would not have willingly married a prostitute had it not been for the Lord's commanding him to do so.
Why do you expect God not to give us an express word to marry a prostitute? A prostitute can be forgiven and restored. Any man can marry a prostitute to transform her pitiable life. A woman mainly becomes a prostitute because of her poor economic background. There are many prostitutes in this world who are unwillingly and with tears are earning their livelihood through this sinful act. The Lord who specifically commanded His people in Israel not to marry divorcees has not given any such commandment not to marry prostitutes. Gid has made a clear distinction between a prostitute and a divorcee.
quote:
Second critical point is that there was no divorce between them. At no time did Hosea divorce Gomer. If he did that would not have been in accordance to the plan of God to use this as a symbol of His relationship with Israel. Hosea, may have had in mind to divorce her but because of a Word from the Lord, he did not.
Can you show me the particular verse from the book of Hosiah to prove that Gomer deserved divorce on the ground that she had committed adultery after marriage? The question of divorce by Hosea does not arise at all. God also had not commanded him to divorce her just because he was the prostitute before marriage.
quote:
The point here is that we find two things happening in the OT. We find men lawfully divorcing their wives on account of adultery (and other grounds). We also find this occassion of a man staying married to the women who committed adultery. Neither was unlawful to do based on the Word of the Lord. One cannot use Hosea as a support for staying marriage and disregard the rest of the OT which makes it clear that valid divorces occurred for other legit reasons as discussed in earlier post.
Can you prove that Gomer had committed whoredom after her marriage to Hosea? This cannot be compared to the men lawfully divorcing their wives on account of adultery or on other grounds.
quote:
In Hosea we find the Lord offering forgiveness to Israel in spite of her adulteries which is great, but was the marriage reconciled or was Israel ultimately divorced? Isaiah made it clear it was she who caused the divorce. It was her unrepentant rebellion. The Lord says,
"...and for your transgressions is your mother put away (divorced)."
The Lord through Jeremiah said it this way,
"I sent unfaithful Israel away because of her adultery and that I gave Israel her divorce papers"
This position of reconciliation and cutting off is found throughout Scripture. One verse shows both sides of the Lord.
Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
So the point here once again is to use the whole of Scripture and not take one passage which appears to support this doctrine while neglecting all the other text which speaks to divorce and in some cases remarriage especially in the OT.
That is probably my biggest beef with this doctrine. She stands on the OT claiming it supports her position when through careful study it is very obvious the OT doesn't support her and in fact, as I said before, exposes her as utterly false.
Though the Lord gave Israel the certificate of divorce, yet the Lord had not divorced her but forgave and restored her. After sending her away, the Lord restored her also.
Yes, we should use the whole of Scripture and should not pick up one particular passage i.e. Duet. 24 or some specific commandments given to the people of Israel. We cannot justify divorce under the Covenant of grace at all cost because God had not divorced His bride Israel under the Old Covenant. The Old Testament was only a shadow whereas the New Testament is the reality.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:00:10 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes, it has been hard dealing with such a woman who confesses to be a Christian. It is my hope that she and he(the husband of the 1st wife) will see the adultery in their lives for what it is........for what Jesus said it was..........and they will see the other woman (the lawful wife) as not perfect either, but one whom was wronged in this situation..........a sister in the Lord, a wife, a mother. You are right also that we need the Lord to give us understanding, patience, and love..........because we all are fallible, and if we don't guard ourselves, we can fall into the same sins we watch others get themselves into......Blessings
But even if that is the case, this doctrine is calling for another divorce and that is the issue being addressed in this thread. This couple should not divorce again even if they do realize they did something wrong. If they are lawfully marriage then that's it. If they realize they have sinned, then they are to go before the Lord and seek His forgiveness but that does not automatically mean they are to divorce.
As before, if a Scripture any where in either to OT or NT can be presented to justify this move then put it on the table. If not, then to continue suggesting that this is the proper and godly course, is wrong.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 1:46:55 PM >
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