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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:14:26 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
Wicked woman? Be careful. Self-righteousness is peeking out . Lest you forget we are all off yhe mark in this game and grace covers all of us and the ways we offend God when we seek out the Lord with a broken and contrite heart.
Please do not put me in the category of one who would take another's spouse. Yes, we all fall short- but loving one's neighbor as oneself does not inlude taking their spouse. And a TRUE born again believer would not do something that immoral. They would know how much that grieves God, and yes his grace covers all of us when we seek to GET right with Him. Taking what is not yours, hurting a brother/sister in Christ, destroying a family is not "getting right" with God with a broken and contrite heart. WOW...my head is spinning at this justification of sin.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:25:11 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
Yes, it has been hard dealing with such a woman who confesses to be a Christian. It is my hope that she and he(the husband of the 1st wife) will see the adultery in their lives for what it is........for what Jesus said it was..........and they will see the other woman (the lawful wife) as not perfect either, but one whom was wronged in this situation..........a sister in the Lord, a wife, a mother. You are right also that we need the Lord to give us understanding, patience, and love..........because we all are fallible, and if we don't guard ourselves, we can fall into the same sins we watch others get themselves into......Blessings
But even if that is the case, this doctrine is calling for another divorce and that is the issue being addressed in this thread. This couple should not divorce again even if they do realize they did something wrong. If they are lawfully marriage then that's it. If they realize they have sinned, then they are to go before the Lord and seek His forgiveness but that does not automatically mean they are to divorce.
As before, if a Scripture any where in either to OT or NT can be presented to justify this move then put it on the table. If not, then to continue suggesting that this is the proper and godly course, is wrong on your part.
There is no need for scripture to justify this move, when Jesus calls the union adultery. They would be repenting of sin- not divorcing. Scripture tells us to repent and not to commit adultery, and makes it clear those practicing this sin will not inherit the Kingdom. They are not lawfully married according to Jesus' words.
You said- "they realized they have sinned..." Why do churches call homosexuals to forsake their sinful relationships in order to get right with God? Why do they call men and women having affairs to forsake their sinful relationships? Why are you changing the meaning of the word adultery in remarriage? There is only one definition of adultery. And scripture gives strong warnings against it.
We should flee sin and hate it the way God does- not commit our lives to it and love our sin. We do not get to make excuses to sin..."we'll never be perfect...the law can't save us. I do not believe His blood was cheap and it shouldn't be used as a license to sin.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:27:01 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
Please do not put me in the category of one who would take another's spouse. Yes, we all fall short- but loving one's neighbor as oneself does not inlude taking their spouse. And a TRUE born again believer would not do something that immoral. They would know how much that grieves God, and yes his grace covers all of us when we seek to GET right with Him. Taking what is not yours, hurting a brother/sister in Christ, destroying a family is not "getting right" with God with a broken and contrite heart. WOW...my head is spinning at this justification of sin.[/size][/size]
Yes, it is quite grievous, isn't it?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 1:31:42 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
Yes, it has been hard dealing with such a woman who confesses to be a Christian. It is my hope that she and he(the husband of the 1st wife) will see the adultery in their lives for what it is........for what Jesus said it was..........and they will see the other woman (the lawful wife) as not perfect either, but one whom was wronged in this situation..........a sister in the Lord, a wife, a mother. You are right also that we need the Lord to give us understanding, patience, and love..........because we all are fallible, and if we don't guard ourselves, we can fall into the same sins we watch others get themselves into......Blessings
But even if that is the case, this doctrine is calling for another divorce and that is the issue being addressed in this thread. This couple should not divorce again even if they do realize they did something wrong. If they are lawfully marriage then that's it. If they realize they have sinned, then they are to go before the Lord and seek His forgiveness but that does not automatically mean they are to divorce.
As before, if a Scripture any where in either to OT or NT can be presented to justify this move then put it on the table. If not, then to continue suggesting that this is the proper and godly course, is wrong on your part.
If it is an adulterous relationship, it should be repented and forsaken. It is not another divorce as if the first divorce is justified. Since no divorce is justified under the covenant of grace, leaving the adulterous relationship is not tantamount to another divorce. Just for the sake of Govt. records and to testify to the public, it is desirable that a formal divorce is sought by both the remarried persons. What is wrong in the separation of this couple if they were unscripturally and unlawfully joined together? They did commit the sin of adultery before the Lord because they had joined themselves in this unscriptural relationship. If they have sinned and then repented for their sin, how can you expect them to continue to live in the same relationship?
What is the proper and godly course? Please discuss in this regard. I will come back and reply. Goodnight!
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 2:28:39 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
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keepingfaith,
I'm not sure what your referring to because this wasn't in your post.
A woman going after another woman's husband is wrong and should be condemned if that is what happened in the case lastblast described. But let me throw this out there for you to consider. A woman has left her husband, let's say it's for adultery. She has decided never to return and is going to divorce him. The husband is aware of her intentions to divorce and does not want that but the wife, for the reasons mentioned, is not open to reconciliation at all. That's the end of the marriage as far as she's concerned and please understand that people are capable of making the choice to end things without desiring to return because they have sought the Lord and asked for His leading. In this case, can another man, who is her friend, take her from him? You can rebuke me if you like but I am not willing to say that because a woman or man haven't gotten their official divorce papers signed yet and may have met someone that they are not intimate with, they are committing adultery. From what I'm learning an adulterous heart is the one that divorces for the express purpose of being with another they had their eye on. That involves the heart lust Jesus spoke of. That speaks to motives as well as manifestation. We don't know the motives of a man's heart all the time and we can't always judge by what we see. That is not what I see happening most of the time. If I were to advise I would tell them don't even look the part because folk are going to automatically ascribe sin to you. Get the divorce and then move on from there. But that's me. I have no problem with folk disagreeing with that either.
Don't get me wrong. I do think there is a proper way to handle this so that it leaves both above reproach. Let me tell you. I know of folks who divorce on Friday and marry on Monday. People still have something to say. A man dies and the woman marries a month later. Folks got something to say. My point is this. Let God deal with folk if they are out of order since He alone knows the real facts of all matters. He's very good at that.
You said, quote:
And a TRUE born again believer would not do something that immoral. I really hope you don't believe this because if you do, your in for a very rude awakening not only in what you see in others but what God may expose to you about you.
You said, quote:
Scripture tells us to repent and not to commit adultery, and makes it clear those practicing this sin
Yes the Bible absolutely says that but the meaning of adultery (and I'm not changing it at all) is when one sleeps with another person's spouse. Because you believe this doctrine you say that all remarriages are adultery and the divorced spouse is never the legit spouse of another no matter the occasion for the divorce and I reject that as unbiblical teaching. If the couple are divorced and remarried, they are not sleeping with someone else's spouse. They are sexually intimate with their own spouse. Therefore they are not committing adultery as defined.
The problem is when we go beyond that point and teach that they now have to get divorced in order to be (1) saved or (2) (if they are Christians) remain saved. That is not in the Bible anywhere. Your saying there is no need to provide Scripture for this but because of the gravity of this act, you should have several Scriptures that shows this to be the proper course. There should be evidence somewhere to support this.
We are talking about people's lives and we just can't take it upon ourselves to teach, what we believe to be the "logical" conclusion, when we have no Scriptural support for this. That is what this thread is about. This is about a doctrine being taught as truth that is not written in Scripture.
The Bible says the following:
1 Corinthians 4:6
Brothers and sisters, I have applied this to Apollos and myself for your sake. You should learn from us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture. Then you won't arrogantly place one of us in opposition to the other.
Not going beyond what is written. What your teaching is not written. That, in my opinion, is dangerous territory because folk can come up with anything and use Scripture to try and show that this is what God wants even though it's not what He said.
BTW - we cannot deal with homosexual marriages in here.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 3:02:47 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
keepingfaith,
The husband is aware of her intentions to divorce and does not want that but the wife, for the reasons mentioned, is not open to reconciliation at all. That's the end of the marriage as far as she's concerned and please understand that people are capable of making the choice to end things without desiring to return because they have sought the Lord and asked for His leading.
Response:
If they sought the Lord for leading- His heart is always toward forgiveness restoration and reconciliation. If not, he gives the command to remain unmarried. And it's not the end of the marriage according to God.
You said, quote:
And a TRUE born again believer would not do something that immoral. I really hope you don't believe this because if you do, your in for a very rude awakening not only in what you see in others but what God may expose to you about you.
Response:
I wholeheartedly believe this, and do not buy excuses and justification for sinning... we all "stumble and fall"- taking another's spouse cannot be classified as that.
You said, quote:
Scripture tells us to repent and not to commit adultery, and makes it clear those practicing this sin
Yes the Bible absolutely says that but the meaning of adultery (and I'm not changing it at all) is when one sleeps with another person's spouse.
If the couple are divorced and remarried, they are not sleeping with someone else's spouse. They are sexually intimate with their own spouse. Therefore they are not committing adultery as defined.
Response:
According to Jesus they are committing adultery with another's spouse. Please explain away ALL the scriptures that say remarriage is adultery. Most importantly, the one that says a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives, if HE DIES she may remarry without being called an adultress...
Pickupyourmat said:
What your teaching is not written.
response:
It absolutely is written in the Word, and over and over presented in this thread. You reject the words of Jesus, not mine. You are calling HIS doctrine false.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 9/14/2007 3:16:16 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 3:10:36 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
Pickupyourmat said:
Your saying there is no need to provide Scripture for this but because of the gravity of this act, you should have several Scriptures that shows this to be the proper course. There should be evidence somewhere to support this.
No, I said, there is no need for scripture that calls for a divorce in the case of remarriage- when the union is called adultery, which means they are bound to another in the Lord's eyes. Yes, the gravity of repenting of adultery is found THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE WITH VERY STRONG LANGUAGE.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 3:14:47 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
A woman going after another woman's husband is wrong and should be condemned if that is what happened in the case lastblast described. But let me throw this out there for you to consider. A woman has left her husband, let's say it's for adultery. She has decided never to return and is going to divorce him. The husband is aware of her intentions to divorce and does not want that but the wife, for the reasons mentioned, is not open to reconciliation at all. That's the end of the marriage as far as she's concerned and please understand that people are capable of making the choice to end things without desiring to return because they have sought the Lord and asked for His leading.
Lest there be wrong assumptions about the situation I spoke of, here are the facts as PRESENTED TO ME by BOTH sides:
The husband in said situation, committed sin against the wife/marriage MANY times, and the wife forgave him, took him back. The wife reacted to his sin with physical actions, acting in the flesh regarding her response to his sins (not right, but understandable). With one of the last altercations the police became involved. The husband left his family................again. The husband and wife were TRYING to reconcile, even getting away for some "private" time----even while this other woman was in the picture.
The other woman posted of this situation on a message board...........telling how this man was "abused" by his wife, yet in her story, neglected to speak of the MANY times this man had sinned against his wife during the marriage---thus possibly explaining why the wife reacted as she did. In other words, she only chose to speak of one side of the relationship to make it appear LESS ungodly as to why she was involved with a married man.
Here is a portion of what she posted:
"She just recently dropped the order saying that she realizes she put up these walls and that's why she did it. He left that meeting a mess emotionally. I suggested to him that when he speaks to her he should be very clear that he is not looking for reconciliation if that is his true heart. He did that and she told him how hard it is for her and that he knows what he's doing is wrong. She asked him has he thought about what he's doing to her. She used the bible to defend her position. As I listened, I felt knots in my stomach. He stayed with her for 16 years after being abused and he finally decided to leave because of it and she is trying to twist it around and make it seem like he is the bad guy here.
When I gave him the advice I did it was because I feel that she is manipulative and if he would tell her the truth, state clearly that he is not looking to come back and has moved on, he would see what this "repentance" was really about. In my opinion, true to form, she changed. She went from expressing all this belief in him and what he could do in life and how she wanted to be a part of that with him to telling him that leaving her was wrong and that it wasn't God's will. That he knows what he's doing is wrong and look at what he's doing to her. I just don't know what to say to him sometimes and I really need advice. What do you (anyone)think I can share with him to help him see things clearly or is it me? He struggles with forgiveness without reconciliation and I know this is hard because he is a Christian. "
Do you know why she felt "knots in her stomach"? Because she was in conviction by the Holy Spirit. She was interfering in a marriage that God joined together. She was PUSHING her wants/desires to be the husband's wants desires. He was a "mess" because he knew what his wife was speaking to him was right.........and he was under conviction as well.
The reason he was struggling with forgiveness without reconciliation is because he KNOWS that this idea is not scriptural in regards to marriage. What God has joined together, let man NOT separate. Even to those who teach adultery gives right to the INNOCENT one to pursue divorce, they would agree: this situation does NOT fit that, and anyone who marries in the above circumstances COMMITS ADULTERY.
PUYM,
What you stated about "having your eye on someone" as being WRONG/SIN, that is EXACTLY what happened in this situation. If the "third" party would not have inserted herself into this marriage, this couple would have worked it out..........in time, as the Lord did a work in them. Instead, she, even after being rebuked for being in the middle, even after knowing the wife (a Christian sister) wanted her husband to return home to his family, insisted she had a right to this man...........that he had made up his mind that he didn't want his wife, but instead wanted her. WOW!!! My mind cannot even fathom this kind of twisted logic coming from a professed Christian. My mind cannot fathom a Christian actually believing and teaching others that all one needs to do is confess they no longer want to be married, then it is quite ok to be with another person............again, WOW!!!!
quote:
BTW - we cannot deal with homosexual marriages in here.
Keepingfaith never mentioned homosexual MARRIAGES, he/she said homosexual RELATIONSHIPS. They were speaking of ANY sinful relationship and the proper response to repentance.
< Message edited by lastblast -- 9/14/2007 3:34:52 PM >
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 3:23:21 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
In this case, can another man, who is her friend, take her from him? You can rebuke me if you like but I am not willing to say that because a woman or man haven't gotten their official divorce papers signed yet and may have met someone that they are not intimate with, they are committing adultery. From what I'm learning an adulterous heart is the one that divorces for the express purpose of being with another they had their eye on. That involves the heart lust Jesus spoke of. That speaks to motives as well as manifestation. We don't know the motives of a man's heart all the time and we can't always judge by what we see. That is not what I see happening most of the time. If I were to advise I would tell them don't even look the part because folk are going to automatically ascribe sin to you. Get the divorce and then move on from there. But that's me. I have no problem with folk disagreeing with that either.
That's true we can't know the motives of another's heart. When getting involved with someone who is on their way out of a marriage- or is even divorced...we can't know the REAL reasons they left their marriage.
One could be told all kinds of "stories" from one who claims to be a "victim". I could be getting involved with someone who tells me their ex was unfaithful, blah, blah. and they could have had a fairytale marriage- but they were just ready for something different. I have witnessed this deceptiveness many times...
I don't want to be the one coming in the middle of a family when it's God's will that they are restored. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE. MIRACLES HAPPEN IN THE WORST OF THEM!!!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 3:45:40 PM
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dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
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lastblast,
I think all of us are guilty of saying stuff we question ourselves about later when we get passionate about something!
I'm on the last page of this thread, so I can't refer back to everything you said. I do agree with what you were saying on feminism, though. I think with unplanned pregnancies, men are blamed for all of it...when the woman wasn't being responsible, either. What infuriates me is when they demand child support, but don't want the father to see his child ( I can see it in abuse cases, something like that...but some women are just mad).
I do think the right to abortion (which is murdering a child) has caused a lot of problems, too.
I guess the whole movement caused a lot of problems, like we said, huh?
I have noticed a lot of women say it's a "challenge" to pursue a married man, and men saying they get hit on more when they have a wedding ring. That is sad.
I think the hardest thing can be forgiving in our heart when we don't see any remorse or repentance. It does seem like a lot of things that used to be respected aren't anymore. 
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 3:54:36 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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Assumptions are very dangerous lastblast  . If your comfortable with passing on the private info of others that you are not really privy to and could be very wrong about, then that's on you. Unless you are saying you know all these people involved and you were present during these conversations and decisions, etc. If you were not, then it's pretty safe to assume you are posting this to try to divert attention from the true issue (whether this doctrine is Biblical or not), by getting folks caught up in an emotional drama that may not be true at all. Shame on you for that! Classic behavior however when one finds themselves hard-pressed to refute what has been presented from Scripture. That's not the way to reason together when it comes to Scripture. That's just mud-slinging. I won't entertain you any longer on that.
In this thread we are discussing doctrine and not your personal beliefs or even what you think you know about someone else's life. Like I said, if you can refute what I have offered biblically so far, then do so.
At any rate, I stand by my statements regarding divorce, marriage, remarriage and forgiveness.
It occurs to me that you are putting out the actions of the ex-wife you are trying to defend. I wonder if she's comfortable knowing that you are exposing her sin on this forum. Why aren't you trying to cover her? What your doing is very wrong and you should stop. This reminds me so much of the Pharisees and the woman caught in adultery. He didn't expose her like this and she was really wrong! After they walked away, He dealt with her - in private. He did not do as they had done, trying to expose her to anyone who would listen in order to illicit condemnation. Do you really think exposing someone's else sin/private life is going to help correct what you think is sin in others? I can tell you, it will never work. That's really bad behavior and it sad to me that one would feel the need to stoop to this level in order to prove anything. If one has to do all that then truly this doctrinal position must be on quite shaky ground. 
Deal with the purpose of this thread  .
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 4:48:10 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 4:11:48 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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quote:
That's true we can't know the motives of another's heart. When getting involved with someone who is on their way out of a marriage- or is even divorced...we can't know the REAL reasons they left their marriage. And I trust that when it comes to the Christian they are seeking the Lord and asking HIM what is going on. The only thing I will say, is that most Christians I know who are divorce have done so biblically.
quote:
One could be told all kinds of "stories" from one who claims to be a "victim". I could be getting involved with someone who tells me their ex was unfaithful, blah, blah. and they could have had a fairytale marriage- but they were just ready for something different. I have witnessed this deceptiveness many times... I absolutely agree with that and I believe God exposes because He says He does not want us to be ignorant. I really believe the Christian who wants to make sure they are okay with God will take the time to make sure matters are as they should be and are true as to what is said. In regards to this doctrine. If the divorce was sound, the remarriage is sound. That's the end of it for me. If it's not, God can handle it. But to teach that in every case, every remarried couple needs to divorce is still biblically unsound and can't be supported Scripturally.
quote:
I don't want to be the one coming in the middle of a family when it's God's will that they are restored. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE. MIRACLES HAPPEN IN THE WORST OF THEM!!! True and I hope you don't but what does that have to do with teaching that every remarried couple should get divorced? If one of them has gotten remarried, the miracle did not happen.
And let me say this, you nor I know whether it is God's will for a couple to be restored and that can especially be true when God told that couple not to marry and they did so anyway. That is important to consider as well when it comes to the doctrine we teach. No one can say it's God's will for a woman to stay married to the repeated offender (insert the sins we've mentioned in this post). This is what's pointed to many times. These people have a relationship with God and He is more than able to lead them in what they should do. Your doctrinal position doesn't allow for remarriage but there are many testomonies of folk who will tell you that they sought the Lord, genuinely and wholeheartedly and they are at peace in their marriages and are not under condemnation.
My challenge is for you as well. I have posted many Scriptures and what I have learned from them. If you can refute them, do so. We are talking about dividing the Word correctly.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 4:39:08 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 4:55:44 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
I think the hardest thing can be forgiving in our heart when we don't see any remorse or repentance. It does seem like a lot of things that used to be respected aren't anymore.
Yes, you are right on both fronts. Forgiving is much easier when we see some element of remorse, but the thing is, no matter what anyone does to offend us, we have to be careful to allow the Lord to enable us to have soft hearts, so forgiveness is there when it is sought by the offender.
Yes, and I agree, it seems that many do not respect marriage anymore. I remember when I worked in a male dominated work place. I could not believe the amount of men who would ask me for dates KNOWING I was married........I think it is because more and more women are having affairs, so more and more men think married women are available. Married women used to be "off limits" because men respected other men's wives and I think because more women stayed home and raised their chidren, there were far less temptations than now when women are working side by side with men who are not their husbands.
.........more fallout from the freedom touted in women's lib, I think. It's a real shame this destructive mindset has infiltrated the church. If we all walked what the Lord taught, "let every man have his OWN wife and every woman have her OWN husband", this discussion, at least as pertaining to the church, would not be happening...
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 5:18:20 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
Assumptions are very dangerous lastblast .
I agree, that's why I only stated what has been shared with me by parties on both sides, not my assumptions and keeping names/etc out of it. We are dealing with divorce/remarriage and whether it is biblical or not. You keep bringing scenerios in to prove your assertion that ANY cause of a divorce (if one doesn't WANT to be with their spouse, then it is no longer a marriage) makes a remarriage NOT adultery. Jesus disagreed with your stance. He said that EVERYONE who divorces their spouse and marries another commits adultery. I shared the very words of the woman who was/is committing adultery with another woman's husband---a scenerio which very much does pertain to this discussion. I did not add anything to her words.
By your words, you seem to agree with what this woman did, do you not? If you do, can you provide scripture to show how it is that just because a man doesn't want his wife, he can then be free to involve himself with another woman? Can you show that WANT/DESIRE or lack thereof defines what marriage is to GOD? Can you show where in scripture that God thinks it a GOOD thing for a "Christian" woman to insert herself in between a husband and wife..........taking that husband as her own? Is this not "adultery" as defined by Jesus?
quote:
It occurs to me that you are putting out the actions of the ex-wife you are trying to defend. I wonder if she's comfortable knowing that you are exposing her sin on this forum.
I have not mentioned any names at all, so my "sharing" is no different than your scenerios, which very possibly are based upon real-life people. In any case, if the wife saw my posts, she would know that I am on her side in this. If you have issue with me speaking on a situation in which no names have been named, do you also have issue with the other woman posting derogatory things about the wife to justify her own sinful actions with another woman's husband(and the other woman even posted her real name in her original post)  ?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 5:20:45 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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quote:
I suggested to him that when he speaks to her he should be very clear that he is not looking for reconciliation if that is his true heart.
When I gave him the advice I did it was because I feel that she is manipulative and if he would tell her the truth, state clearly that he is not looking to come back and has moved on, he would see what this "repentance" was really about.
I just don't know what to say to him sometimes and I really need advice. What do you (anyone)think I can share with him to help him see things clearly or is it me? He struggles with forgiveness without reconciliation and I know this is hard because he is a Christian. "
BTW, if the situation is as you said, great advice! One thing most don't realize is the manipulative nature of someone who is abusive especially when the other party has determined to divorce. I think many can attest to the fact that this is the point where you get all the tears and apologies but it is usually short-lived but that only comes out once they return, yet again.
Hoepfully you are correct when you said she said, "if that is your true heart". That doesn't quite sound like she's trying to take him but rather an encouragement to be honest. I have heard of folk giving this advice to others in abusive marriages simply because the abused goes back and forth so many times and in a way they are not doing right by the spouse in this. They are sending mixed messages. Scripture says let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything else comes from the evil one.
I think many Christians who have been abused or been cheated on struggle with forgiveness and reconciliation when they decide to divorce. Most on this forum will tell you that they wanted to be reconciled and tried everything in their power but ultimately the marriage didn't work out. It's no surprise he would have struggled with this either if the case is as your presenting it.
If you've ever been abused, trust me you now the signs and you know the typical behavior when you see it but those who are being abused are usually the last to know. That's why they stay so long even when everyone is trying to help them. They just don't see it and thank God for friends who are willing to help them understand certain things.
Do you think she was the only one speaking to this brother? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure if the case is as you have exposed, then many others knew what was going on since they were married that long and were advising him as well. I'm sure the ex-wife didn't just sit around and do nothing while all this was going on. I guess you assume they were advising him to stay but it has been my experience that when Christians contemplate divorce and even remarriage, there are many who surround them offering counsel to stay or to go depending on how much they know about what's going on. That's what usually happens.
The point to all of this is that Scripture says to the pure all things are pure. It just seems like your taking something and presenting in a very bad light in order to make it appear to be a way that it might not have been. I would be very careful of that because you can wind up doing great damage to someone's name and that's not really fair. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone to do that to you.
Peace
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 5:39:37 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 5:36:03 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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lastblast,
quote:
By your words, you seem to agree with what this woman did, do you not? If you do, can you provide scripture to show how it is that just because a man doesn't want his wife, he can then be free to involve himself with another woman? Can you show that WANT/DESIRE or lack thereof defines what marriage is to GOD? Can you show where in scripture that God thinks it a GOOD thing for a "Christian" woman to insert herself in between a husband and wife..........taking that husband as her own? Is this not "adultery" as defined by Jesus?
If that's what you got out of what I said, then I'm not communicating very well. What I'm saying is that because you don't know the whole story, then you should refrain from making assumptions. If the situation occurred as you are posting it, then no I do not agree with what has occurred.
quote:
If you have issue with me speaking on a situation in which no names have been named, do you also have issue with the other woman posting derogatory things about the wife to justify her own sinful actions with another woman's husband(and the other woman even posted her real name in her original post)?
If you are referring to what you just wrote, I just posted on that. I'm sorry but I don't see it the same way you do. Since the advice is something I'm familiar with when it comes to these cases, I don't see the adultery your claiming to exist in that. Perhaps in her attempt to get advice she used her name. Not the brightest idea in the world!  Probably said things she shouldn't. I don't know about you but when I witness people I care about being mistreated in anyway, I get upset with the person doing it. I think that's how we are with our friends. Aren't you that way? Again not particularly bright. Even so, I'm sure she'd be saddened to see that someone is using this to discredit her and charge her with all that you are. To speak evil of what someone may have been doing for good is really not what Jesus has taught us to do . I still say this is bad behavior lastblast and only goes to show what can happen when we try to act like we are all-knowing like God.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 6:04:07 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 5:39:23 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
I suggested to him that when he speaks to her he should be very clear that he is not looking for reconciliation if that is his true heart.
When I gave him the advice I did it was because I feel that she is manipulative and if he would tell her the truth, state clearly that he is not looking to come back and has moved on, he would see what this "repentance" was really about.
I just don't know what to say to him sometimes and I really need advice. What do you (anyone)think I can share with him to help him see things clearly or is it me? He struggles with forgiveness without reconciliation and I know this is hard because he is a Christian. "
BTW, if the situation is as you said, great advice!
Wow, you say, "Great advice!" knowing this is being spoken by a woman who is involved with a married man..........that is very sad
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 5:48:44 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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quote:
Wow, you say, "Great advice!" knowing this is being spoken by a woman who is involved with a married man..........that is very sad
Lastblast, does every relationship between a separated married man/woman and another have to be "involved" in your mind's eye? There is a such thing as Christian friendship. There is a such thing as pure motives and maybe that was the case. You'll never know which is why judgment should be left to God. That's my opinion. It kind of goes back to what I said to another poster. Folk always have something to say about someone else and their marriages/remarriages if it doesn't quite look right to them. That's just how folks do. Why we feel the need to try and sully the reputation of another believer based on very little facts, twisted perceptions and the like, is really beyond me but that's life too.
It's the same thing when it comes down to remarriage and this doctrine. Somehow it's assumed that the one divorcing is the one with the hard-heart and then you go off on that. It's assumed they are divorcing because they ultimately desire to be with another and then you go off on that. It's been said over and over again that you simply don't know, so when you present this doctrine and you try to prove it's validity by attempting to charge those who have divorced with ungodly motives, you wind up judging incorrectly and it's wrong. Then that leads to destroying legit marriages (for those who accept this) and that is just not God's way.
So having said all that, let's get back to the Bible...
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 6:01:46 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 6:33:59 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
by keepingfath:
I don't want to be the one coming in the middle of a family when it's God's will that they are restored. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE. MIRACLES HAPPEN IN THE WORST OF THEM!!!
by pickupyour mat:
True and I hope you don't but what does that have to do with teaching that every remarried couple should get divorced? If one of them has gotten remarried, the miracle did not happen.
THAT is my point! The miracle did not happen because of the OTHER person who stood in the way of that. Who are we to "judge" whether someone else's marriage is beyond hope- and that it is our "right" to step in and take their spouse?
As far as you saying many "appear" to be blessed in their marriages? I know many who are living in rebellion to God, who left a faithful Christian spouse for another person. They appear very happy and blessed to the world- is that God blessing their actions?
For the short while that I thought I could remarry as the "innocent" party, I had determined that I would not marry a divorced person 1) because I would be standing in the way of a family possibly being restored 2) because I would be relying on someone's word, that they had a biblical divorce and I was not committing adultery. Not rolling those dice...
Yes, let's get back to the Bible...Please tell me why these don't mean what they say.
Romans 7:2-3 For a woman is bound by law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband dies, she is free from the law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Matthew 5:31-32 But I (Jesus) say unto you, That WHOSOEVER shall put away his wife, except for fornication, causes her to commit adultery; and WHOSOEVER shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.
Matthew 19:9 And I (Jesus) say unto you, WHOSOEVER shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery: and WHOSOEVER marries her which is put away commits adultery.
Mark 10:11 And He (Jesus) said to them, WHOSOEVER shall put away his wife, and marry another, commits adultery against her.
Luke 16:18 WHOSOEVER puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and WHOSOEVER marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery.
1 Corinthians 7:10-11: To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband)—and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
1 Corinthians 7:39: A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. If the husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 9/14/2007 6:45:15 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 6:35:57 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
Do you think she was the only one speaking to this brother? I find that hard to believe.
It doesn't matter who was speaking to him. The fact that a woman involved with a married man is advising him on what to do, is WRONG. She did not have "pure", Godly-driven motives. If you want to argue that from a scriptural standpoint, I think you will come up on the short end of the stick.
quote:
I guess you assume they were advising him to stay but it has been my experience that when Christians contemplate divorce and even remarriage, there are many who surround them offering counsel to stay or to go depending on how much they know about what's going on. That's what usually happens.
I agree with you here. Most counsel on what they know............not what they know God's Word to say on a matter. Most counsel is emotion/experience driven. It is not driven by the desire to come into line with what the Lord commands on a matter. That is why we see the destruction to families we are now seeing......."I feel/you feel, therefore I react/counsel ". This is not of God.
quote:
The point to all of this is that Scripture says to the pure all things are pure. It just seems like your taking something and presenting in a very bad light in order to make it appear to be a way that it might not have been.
Ok, in the situation I presented, a woman got involved with a MARRIED man. What you seem to be saying is that this is ok, in some situations. My question would be: where ANYWHERE in scripture can you justify your position that such a relationship would EVER be ok in the sight of the Lord(and to be sure, it matters not what I think or what you think, but what HE thinks, since He will judge ALL of mankind)?
quote:
I would be very careful of that because you can wind up doing great damage to someone's name
Again, I didn't mention anyone's name, so your point is moot. We all, including you, give scenerios to point out scriptural truth or scriptural falsities.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 6:49:45 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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If adultery breaks the covenant of marriage, why do we not have to keep having another wedding and remarrying our spouse who cheats on us?
Why would one be "free" and one still be bound to the covenant- is that POSSIBLE? One is bound to the other- but not vice versa? 
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 6:52:59 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
Lastblast, does every relationship between a separated married man/woman and another have to be "involved" in your mind's eye? There is a such thing as Christian friendship. There is a such thing as pure motives and maybe that was the case. You'll never know which is why judgment should be left to God.
Here are some more excerpts from the other woman's post---on a public forum:
"I am currently involved with a wonderful man who was abused in his marriage of (16 years)."
"I just need help dealing because I love him but I'm watching him, in my opinion, be manipulated by this woman. "
"She asked him has he thought about what he's doing to her. She used the bible to defend her position. As I listened, I felt knots in my stomach. He stayed with her for 16 years after being abused and he finally decided to leave because of it and she is trying to twist it around and make it seem like he is the bad guy here."
I think by her own words, we can throw out the "Christian friendship" argument because that is just false. I think we can also throw out "pure motives" because her own words expose her as not being "pure" in motive. She is clearly upset that the man is waivering.........and clearly upset that the wife is bringing forth scripture to try and bring her husband back.............the other woman sees the use of scripture as "manipulative". I guess I would bring those accusations against the wife too, if I were the one going against what God said and was blame shifting.
The Lord calls us to judge the OUTWARD ACTIONS among ourselves (those who profess to know Christ). That is all I am doing. I leave the ultimate judgment up to God concerning what motivates persons to come between what God has joined together.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 8:23:02 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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lastblast,
quote:
I think by her own words, we can throw out the "Christian friendship" argument because that is just false. I think we can also throw out "pure motives" because her own words expose her as not being "pure" in motive. She is clearly upset that the man is waivering.........and clearly upset that the wife is bringing forth scripture to try and bring her husband back.............the other woman sees the use of scripture as "manipulative".
I don't see that. I'll give you an example. This is a good friend of mine both the woman and man. The brother divorced his wife for biblical reasons and about a year later married his best friend. She had been his friend before he married and during. I'm quite sure she loved him but that doesn't mean she was trying to break up his marriage. I'm sure, and I say I'm sure because I got to know her very well as a result of working together, she gave advice to this brother before the marriage, during the marriage and during the divorce. One thing I would never charge her with is trying to break up their marriage though. The reason is because if you really love someone and you love God, you wouldn't do that for fear of God. If your a real friend, you would counsel according to what's right, no matter what that meant for you. That's if the person loves God.
You won't be able to convince me that a person can't have a wayward heart and still do right. That's Christianity. You may want to with every fiber of your being to tell somebody off but you don't when the opportunity presents itself. That's cause you love God. That's what it's about.
Again, if you were not there during conversations, you have no idea what was said. Let's just say this is how she felt. How do you know what she said to this man? For example, I have seen women who have been abused and they have decided to return to their husband believing that things were going to change and work out. In my spirit, I thought that was a bad move but because this was the choice of that woman, I had to support her. But keep in mind that inside, I didn't think it was going to work out but I still prayed with her because I'm not God and I don't know. Same thing is possible. It's your mindset that is so troubling to me and how you view Christians. You just assume so much about people you don't know. You don't judge people's hearts rightly at all if you don't know them. You don't seem to be able to think the best about someone even if it's look bad. Same thing with this doctrine. Same mindset.
There have been men who have loved me and been involved in my life during the good and the very bad (they knew the serious details). Women too! Should I conclude that they were all after me  ? Again, it just seems like you are bent on charging with ill-intent and that is your right to do. If it's float your boat, have at it.
I'm sorry but I just can't get with you on this one because you see things, in my opinion, in a very shady way and I don't. To me it's like you tint most things with evil and I personally don't think that's good at all. If that's how you see and interpret things, God bless ya but I can't. You do the same thing with this doctrine. You seem to have to charge the innocent (who may have remarried) with wrongdoing no matter what they say was the cause of their divorce. Legit or not, it simply doesn't matter to you. So what can anyone say to you on that? You've made up your mind and you believe your judgments are 100% accurate. No one can tell you anything at that point. They can't point out inconsistencies with this doctrine. They can't point out the ramifications of this doctrine.
No one can tell you anything because your right about everything especially concerning these matters! Dangerous place to be...
So again I say if this is what you have to do in order to prove that you are doctrinally sound, then you should really question your doctrine a little more.
Is this gonna be your soapbox or are you ever going to go back to the Bible and deal with what's written? If so, that's cool but I'm finished with this one because I want to complete what I started with prophet_india where I can reason with someone when it comes to Scripture.
Latah!
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 9/14/2007 8:51:37 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2007 11:39:26 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I think by her own words, we can throw out the "Christian friendship" argument because that is just false. I think we can also throw out "pure motives" because her own words expose her as not being "pure" in motive. She is clearly upset that the man is waivering.........and clearly upset that the wife is bringing forth scripture to try and bring her husband back.............the other woman sees the use of scripture as "manipulative
quote:
I don't see that.
I know you don't. That's the problem.
quote:
The reason is because if you really love someone and you love God, you wouldn't do that for fear of God. If your a real friend, you would counsel according to what's right, no matter what that meant for you. That's if the person loves God.
Oh, I agree with that..........IF the person loves God. And if the person loves God, they would not take what belongs to a sister or brother IN CHRIST.
quote:
You may want to with every fiber of your being to tell somebody off but you don't when the opportunity presents itself. That's cause you love God. That's what it's about.
Absolutely! And one wouldn't dare want to take another person's spouse as their own, much as they desire that person..............IF they love God, and IF they love their brother/sister in Christ.
quote:
It's your mindset that is so troubling to me and how you view Christians. You just assume so much about people you don't know. You don't judge people's hearts rightly at all if you don't know them. You don't seem to be able to think the best about someone even if it's look bad. Same thing with this doctrine. Same mindset.
I don't have to assume anything about a person when I can SEE that their OUTWARD actions are in contradiction to the Word of God. Talk is cheap..........saying one does not "understand" someone else's heart, thus therefore should not judge, does not align with what scripture teaches about judging righteous judgment. If a brother or sister sins, they ARE to be confronted, in love, desiring to see such a one depart from their sin. I did that..........and saw nothing but justification, excuses, etc. It mattered not to this "Christian" woman that she was hurting another sister in Christ.........it only mattered that she got what she wanted. I think the quotes I posted from her speak loud and clear.
quote:
You've made up your mind and you believe your judgments are 100% accurate. No one can tell you anything at that point. They can't point out inconsistencies with this doctrine. They can't point out the ramifications of this doctrine.
Yes, I have made my mind up on what is the truth concerning marriage because of God's Word on the matter. I don't have to justify my beliefs because they can be found in Jesus' own words. What I find troubling is that you seem to make up your beliefs based upon wants/desires to be married to a person. I can't seem to find that teaching anywhere in scripture. You say: If a man doesn't love his wife anymore, doesn't want to reconcile with her, he can then divorce her and marry another woman----who has already expressed her love for him even WHILE He is still married in the eyes of the law.
quote:
Is this gonna be your soapbox or are you ever going to go back to the Bible and deal with what's written?
I think I have dealt quite at length with what scripture teaches on divorce/remarriage. I think you have quite a bit explaining to do in regards to explaining the belief you hold that marriage is based upon want/desire and if that is no longer there, you feel it quite ok to divorce and marry another. As I said earlier, concerning PROOF of this belief, you will come up with the short end of the stick.....and that is not me being arrogant, it is truth because your view is not found in God's Word, it is found in sinful man's head/heart.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 1:18:20 AM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
In this case, can another man, who is her friend, take her from him? You can rebuke me if you like but I am not willing to say that because a woman or man haven't gotten their official divorce papers signed yet and may have met someone that they are not intimate with, they are committing adultery. From what I'm learning an adulterous heart is the one that divorces for the express purpose of being with another they had their eye on. That involves the heart lust Jesus spoke of. That speaks to motives as well as manifestation. We don't know the motives of a man's heart all the time and we can't always judge by what we see. That is not what I see happening most of the time. If I were to advise I would tell them don't even look the part because folk are going to automatically ascribe sin to you. Get the divorce and then move on from there. But that's me. I have no problem with folk disagreeing with that either.
That's true we can't know the motives of another's heart. When getting involved with someone who is on their way out of a marriage- or is even divorced...we can't know the REAL reasons they left their marriage.
One could be told all kinds of "stories" from one who claims to be a "victim". I could be getting involved with someone who tells me their ex was unfaithful, blah, blah. and they could have had a fairytale marriage- but they were just ready for something different. I have witnessed this deceptiveness many times...
I don't want to be the one coming in the middle of a family when it's God's will that they are restored. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE. MIRACLES HAPPEN IN THE WORST OF THEM!!!
The greater the trial, the greater the testimony!
The christian dating websites are full of those who paint themselves as the victim....while they are looking for the next one to deal with their unfinished business.
And don't forget, when you are around those who are divorcing or justifying their divorce or adulterous relationships.....there is SO MUCH confusion around these things. Just who is wrong and how much, and what is that crazy stuff they are saying and how can they and did they really mean that and is what they said yesterday real or is what they said today the real thing?
Why all the confusion? Because, dear brethren, the author of confusion is satan himself. The father of lies! That is who is behind the giving up on each other! He operates in lies, and uses the flesh of those who are hurt, offended, in sin or just ignorant and causes great confusion and chaos!!! Can we not see this in the many, many posts on the other threads in this forum???? Can we not detect confusion and people believing lies??/
And we counsel them to give up and get out and get lawyers and somehow teach them there is no hope for the power of faith and obedience to God?
Don't be ignorant of the wiles of the devil in marriage turmoil! Resist cooperating with the REAL culprit!
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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