|
|
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 2:03:35 AM
|
|
|
prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
|
PickUpYourMat,
quote:
don't see that. I'll give you an example. This is a good friend of mine both the woman and man. The brother divorced his wife for biblical reasons and about a year later married his best friend. She had been his friend before he married and during. I'm quite sure she loved him but that doesn't mean she was trying to break up his marriage. I'm sure, and I say I'm sure because I got to know her very well as a result of working together, she gave advice to this brother before the marriage, during the marriage and during the divorce. One thing I would never charge her with is trying to break up their marriage though. The reason is because if you really love someone and you love God, you wouldn't do that for fear of God. If your a real friend, you would counsel according to what's right, no matter what that meant for you. That's if the person loves God.
First of all, please note that there are no Biblical reasons for divorce. You may rephrase the same as personal reasons. Divorcing his wife and marrying his best friend is nothing but the sin of adultery in the words of Jesus Christ.
Let us refrain from discussing the personal lives of others in this thread because we cannot give our judgments in cases which are known to us partly. We are not sitting in judgment over the private lives of people in this thread. Let us go on the track and not off the track.
WHETHER REMARRIAGE IS JUSTIFIED AFTER DIVORCE OR NOT?
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 2:29:12 AM
|
|
|
fromdeathtolife
Posts: 17
Joined: 6/13/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
fromdeathtolife,
When I've looked up "poneia" in Strong's concordance, it also means adultery.
dragonwing:
Almost all commentators seem to make the simple assumption that porneia means adultery in this context. However, The only other place besides Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 where Matthew uses the word porneiais is in 15:19 where it is used alongside of moicheia. Therefore, the primary contextual evidence for Matthew's usage is that he conceives of porneia as something different than adultery. Could this mean, then, that Matthew conceives of porneia in its normal sense of fornication or incest (l Corinthians 5:1) rather than adultery?
Also, the word porneia is used in John 8:41 where Jewish leaders indirectly accuse Jesus of being born of porneia. In other words, since they didn't accept the virgin birth, they assumed that Mary had committed fornication and Jesus was the result of this act.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 8:35:19 AM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fromdeathtolife
Almost all commentators seem to make the simple assumption that porneia means adultery in this context. However, The only other place besides Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 where Matthew uses the word porneiais is in 15:19 where it is used alongside of moicheia. Therefore, the primary contextual evidence for Matthew's usage is that he conceives of porneia as something different than adultery. Could this mean, then, that Matthew conceives of porneia in its normal sense of fornication or incest (l Corinthians 5:1) rather than adultery?
Also, the word porneia is used in John 8:41 where Jewish leaders indirectly accuse Jesus of being born of porneia. In other words, since they didn't accept the virgin birth, they assumed that Mary had committed fornication and Jesus was the result of this act.
That is absolutely correct. Also many seem to ignore the fact that the "porneia" Jesus was referring to was in the context of the Law of Moses. Therefore, first of all it has no application to those under the New Covenant. Secondly it only applied to the "porneia" that the Old Covenant Law said it applied to, which was a husband finding his wife sexually unclean "WHEN HE MARRIED HER."
The important message that Jesus was conveying to the old Covenant Jews in the Matthew passages was that when divorces were not done lawfully for premarital fornication, all subsequent "marriages" were actually adulterous affairs because the illegal divorce did not end the marriage. This was a condemnation against them because of their misuse of the Law, and was not at all meant to justify divorce or remarriage in general or give a provision for it, but was meant to illustrate the permanency of marriage and condemn the practice.
It is amazing therefore that so-called "Christians" try to use New Testament verses where Jesus condemns divorce and remarriage out of context and claim that He is providing them a justification for what He defines as adultery. This is the error of the Pharisees all over again, trying to make God's commandments conform to the will of man rather than vice versa.
God Himself has told us that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery", which means that divorce cannot end a marriage, and that all subsequent relationships are the sin of having sexual relations with someone who is not his or her spouse. Instead of submitting to the commandment not to commit this sin, many professing "Christians" look for verses to take out of context and claim that they have found a loophole to ignore God's commands, and claim they are living righteously while committing adultery. This is exactly what the Pharisees did, and why Jesus condemned them more harshly than anyone.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 3:39:29 PM
|
|
|
car2ner
Posts: 2539
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
|
quote:
It is amazing therefore that so-called "Christians"
Ah, there we go again. Your posts keep saying that real christians would never disagree with you on this. Real christians have argued over doctrine for eons, both sides often using the same scriptures just like we do. European history is full of terrible years of heretic killing.
I can understand why you take your stand. I see the scriptures you use to support your stand. I cannot agree when you use these scriptures to announce someone a "christian"... that a real christian has to agree with your understanding of scripture or else.
-sigh-
I see in the NT Jesus telling off the pharisees but I have never read of him telling off someone who was remarried.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 5:05:07 PM
|
|
|
truthwarrior
Posts: 23
Joined: 7/17/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Let us refrain from discussing the personal lives of others in this thread because we cannot give our judgments in cases which are known to us partly. We are not sitting in judgment over the private lives of people in this thread.
Agreed! Judging things we cannot see or possibly know is very dangerous and should be repented of. No one knows the heart but God. With the same judgment ye judge with ..you will be met with if it is unrighteous judgment as in ....(assumptions, accusations wicked thoughts against a brother/sister wanting to see something bad in them... etc...that may or may not even be there). This is between the person and God only and it is NOT for anyone on this board to stand as Judge over ones heart or unseen life at all. Cast the first stone those of you without sin I dare you! I said it before and I will say it again...STOP pointing fingers at Adulterers who may have repented! For the ones who have not repented LOVE them into the Kingdom of God!
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mt7:2
Let God be Judge and every man a liar!
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Ro 3:4
Jesus had a bigger picture for us to understand when He forgave the Adulterous woman... as I can clearly see even though He DID forgive her and did not condemn her at all... the people today STILL have stones aimed at those like her. The stones would have KILLED her... but it is the Love of God that could change a sinners heart. Did not that same LOVE of Jesus Christ change your own heart? Unconditional LOVE is what leads people to Jesus... Not stones!
Anyone teaching the word of God should ALSO abide by teaching others as Jesus himself did....with love, kindness, longsuffering and patience.
SW
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 5:05:10 PM
|
|
|
dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Ah, there we go again. Your posts keep saying that real christians would never disagree with you on this. Real christians have argued over doctrine for eons, both sides often using the same scriptures just like we do. European history is full of terrible years of heretic killing. Ah, there we go again.
My thoughts exactly. Thanfully, we have court system that doesn't allow that kind of craziness.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 9:40:03 PM
|
|
|
blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
quote:
Ah, there we go again. Your posts keep saying that real christians would never disagree with you on this. Real christians have argued over doctrine for eons, both sides often using the same scriptures just like we do. European history is full of terrible years of heretic killing. Ah, there we go again.
My thoughts exactly. Thanfully, we have court system that doesn't allow that kind of craziness.
There is such a thing as heresy.
there were judaizers.....Paul dealt with it in Galatians.
There were "christians" in sexual sin. Paul dealt with it throughout the NT. Jesus seriously exposed this in Revelations to the "christians" of several churches.
There are those who will say that they have done so much for God, but He will say He did not know them.
There are people that will not have obeyed. He says, "If you love me, you will obey Me"....
Unfortunately, we may well be in the end times. The characteristic of the end times is a time of great deception.
While I agree that it is good that we don't burn people at the stake, the idea of killing those in heresy came from the OT. If a son was rebellious, the parents were supposed to stone him. My Jewish friends assure me that in their history, they decided to not follow through with this command.
Aren't we glad that we are not to cast the first stone, because we are all sinners?
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 10:11:20 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
It is amazing therefore that so-called "Christians"
Ah, there we go again. Your posts keep saying that real christians would never disagree with you on this. Real christians have argued over doctrine for eons, both sides often using the same scriptures just like we do. European history is full of terrible years of heretic killing.
Is God the author of confusion or is man? I am fully convinced that His Word is clear and designed so that any honest person can understand Him, but it is us that argues with what he says because we refuse to submit to Him. That is why professing "Christians" have argued for "eons." It is not that He hasn't explained Himself clearly enough:
John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
1 John 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
European history is full of murderers who killed in His name because they never knew Him. If they were His sheep they would have followed Him and kept His commandments, but they instead directly went against His commandments not to murder people because they never knew Him and were not His children. It was not that He didn't sufficiently tell them not to murder people, or that He didn't make himself clear that it was not His will that they murder people, but it was that they ignored His commandments and twisted his word to fit their own desires. They were never His sheep and never knew Him because they were intellectually dishonest and never made Him the Lord of their lives.
quote:
I can understand why you take your stand. I see the scriptures you use to support your stand. I cannot agree when you use these scriptures to announce someone a "christian"... that a real christian has to agree with your understanding of scripture or else.
I never said that anyone has to agree with me to be a Christian, I only said they need to agree with Christ:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
Do you agree with His statement here? If you don't then you're not a Christian by definition.
quote:
-sigh-
I see in the NT Jesus telling off the pharisees but I have never read of him telling off someone who was remarried.
Then you haven't read the Gospel's carefully:
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 10:33:27 PM
|
|
|
dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
|
Why must Christian be placed into quotes on this thread, is it to display that they're not? Why is that? I was asked earlier to quote what I think is shown as an arrogant statement, and I wanted to refrain from it....but that would be it. Putting the word Christian in quotes.
With the do not judge, I believe God doesn't want us to judge another's heart....OR IF THAT PERSON IS A SAVED CHRISTIAN.
OK, enough of my soapbox on that.
The thing I noticed in Deut. 22 is that the punishment was the same for those that committed adultery as it was for a woman that claimed to be a virgin before marriage, and it was found out she was not (punishment was stoning).
In Matthew 19, some are saying that it only refers to betrothal. I find that interesting, when in Deut. the punishment is the same for both sins. (Fornication and adultery)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 11:02:35 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
Why must Christian be placed into quotes on this thread, is it to display that they're not?
Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
He Himself says that only the few enter the narrow way to eternal life, while the many who profess Him as Lord have never known Him.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2007 11:27:59 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
I was asked earlier to quote what I think is shown as an arrogant statement, and I wanted to refrain from it....but that would be it. Putting the word Christian in quotes.
A "Christian" by definition is someone who follows Christ and does what he says. There are many however who call Him Lord, Lord, and call themselves "Christians" but they do not do so. Christ for example says that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" yet many do so anyway and insist on calling themselves "Christians" nevertheless. If they were they would hear His voice and keep His commandments.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2007 12:04:41 AM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
Why must Christian be placed into quotes on this thread, is it to display that they're not? Why is that? I was asked earlier to quote what I think is shown as an arrogant statement, and I wanted to refrain from it....but that would be it. Putting the word Christian in quotes.
Hello dragonwing,
Let me explain why I use that method............it is to speak of ACTIONS of those who profess to be Christian, not toward the person themselves. I know that true Christians can sin.......in some very big ways!! However, their actions, when sinning, are NOT reflective of how a Christian SHOULD act. I personally, am not of the mindset that one who is in adultery is unsaved and then automatically when they come to knowledge of their sin and leave that sin...........poof, they become saved. I believe that Christians, true Christians can walk in deception, but I also believe that if one IS a true Christian, the Lord WILL deal with them and bring them out of the bondage of sin.
edited to add: Let me also say this: the Lord was clear that not all who say, "Lord, Lord", belong to Him, but those who do the will of His Father in heaven, so the reality is that not all(and to be scripturally accurate, probably most) who post on Christian boards are not possessors of Christ, but only professors.........that is why it is of utmost importance to show those new Christians and those seeking, Who Jesus is in regards to sin, judgment, love, and acceptance. We must be careful to show a TRUE representation of Jesus according to the Word of God.
One thing that we must remember in this discussion is that we have to compare apples to apples. Concerning the woman caught in adultery.........she knew she was guilty. She did not lie, try to make excuses, etc. She acknowledged her sin, though I'm sure she was angry/upset that judgment was falling on her alone, instead of alongside the man she was committing adultery with.
I realize though, that the Lord has to reveal the "hard things" in each of our lives that we won't acknowledge as sin-----things others can see is sin.........
And we also need to manifest longsuffering towards those who are in opposition to the truth.........an area I am not yet perfected in  . I pray the Goodness of God leads those who are in adultery to see the sin as the Lord does and they will be free from the bondage and be incredible witnesses to those the Lord sends them to. I know some of them.......and truly my heart IS towards the adulteress/adulterer who desires to "go and sin no more" as well as the spouse who was forsaken, but as Dragonwing said, it is VERY hard dealing with one who is NOT remorseful/repentant. Personally, I must remember that the war is not with flesh and blood, but is fought in the Spiritual realm.............
Thanks, Truthwarrior, for your word........I listened. 
< Message edited by lastblast -- 9/16/2007 1:27:14 AM >
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2007 10:32:14 AM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Inspired_Art
Divorce:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T207
"The text prohibits remarriage to the first husband since the woman has already been defiled. Defilement is best understood contextually as the "indecency" of verse 1, not "defilement" of adultery because of marrying the second husband. Adultery would have been punishable by death of the woman and the second husband, if such had been the case. The second marriage is not condemned, nor is a third marriage forbidden".
Interesting............
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2007 4:57:40 PM
|
|
|
dragonwing
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
|
lastblast,
I first want to say that I appreciate your approach when disagreeing with someone. I don't find it condemning or argumentative.
I agree that God somehow lets a sinning Christian know that what is going on needs to stop. I've had it happen to me before when I started backsliding shortly after I was saved. I didn't ask for His feelings on it, but He let me know.
I think in cases where someone ignores what God is saying, He allows severe consequences if you continue to willingly sin. I have seen many remarriages that I could see the love of Christ in their lives. I've seen the fruit in their lives.
I think that's what a lot of us are trying to say. When someone is remarried, is that automatically no fruit of the spirit? To me, I've tried to look at all aspects...and at times I've had to ask God for guidance because I may have been wrong about something I once believed.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2007 8:18:53 PM
|
|
|
blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: dragonwing
Why must Christian be placed into quotes on this thread, is it to display that they're not? Why is that? I was asked earlier to quote what I think is shown as an arrogant statement, and I wanted to refrain from it....but that would be it. Putting the word Christian in quotes.
Hello dragonwing,
Let me explain why I use that method............it is to speak of ACTIONS of those who profess to be Christian, not toward the person themselves. I know that true Christians can sin.......in some very big ways!! However, their actions, when sinning, are NOT reflective of how a Christian SHOULD act. I personally, am not of the mindset that one who is in adultery is unsaved and then automatically when they come to knowledge of their sin and leave that sin...........poof, they become saved. I believe that Christians, true Christians can walk in deception, but I also believe that if one IS a true Christian, the Lord WILL deal with them and bring them out of the bondage of sin.
edited to add: Let me also say this: the Lord was clear that not all who say, "Lord, Lord", belong to Him, but those who do the will of His Father in heaven, so the reality is that not all(and to be scripturally accurate, probably most) who post on Christian boards are not possessors of Christ, but only professors.........that is why it is of utmost importance to show those new Christians and those seeking, Who Jesus is in regards to sin, judgment, love, and acceptance. We must be careful to show a TRUE representation of Jesus according to the Word of God.
One thing that we must remember in this discussion is that we have to compare apples to apples. Concerning the woman caught in adultery.........she knew she was guilty. She did not lie, try to make excuses, etc. She acknowledged her sin, though I'm sure she was angry/upset that judgment was falling on her alone, instead of alongside the man she was committing adultery with.
I realize though, that the Lord has to reveal the "hard things" in each of our lives that we won't acknowledge as sin-----things others can see is sin.........
And we also need to manifest longsuffering towards those who are in opposition to the truth.........an area I am not yet perfected in . I pray the Goodness of God leads those who are in adultery to see the sin as the Lord does and they will be free from the bondage and be incredible witnesses to those the Lord sends them to. I know some of them.......and truly my heart IS towards the adulteress/adulterer who desires to "go and sin no more" as well as the spouse who was forsaken, but as Dragonwing said, it is VERY hard dealing with one who is NOT remorseful/repentant. Personally, I must remember that the war is not with flesh and blood, but is fought in the Spiritual realm.............
Thanks, Truthwarrior, for your word........I listened.
Good words, lastblast.
especially this:
I believe that Christians, true Christians can walk in deception, but I also believe that if one IS a true Christian, the Lord WILL deal with them and bring them out of the bondage of sin.
I am living proof of this....I was not "unsaved" when I was deceived. But thankfully, the Lord did deal with me and expose my sin to me! I am no longer confused, nor do I think that God is fickle and lets some get away with sin while others must obey. We shall all deal with unconfessed sin by being judged for it. Only that which we confess and repent of (turn away from) will be covered by His sacrifice.
Our God is holy. He cannot overlook sin. He will deal with it, eventually. May we not abuse our time on earth to try to get by with things that He has taught against. Instead, let us line ourselves up with His character (love, reconciliaton, or openness to it) and turn from the strong current of this world's mentality. The church has accomodated much marriage/divorce/adultery behavior through our cultural immersion.
It is swimming against the current to obey Jesus in this culture.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2007 9:32:52 AM
|
|
|
christsgirl
Posts: 2
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline
|
Obviously, I have not read through all 220+ pages of this thread. But I just have two questions for those of you who believe that remarriage is a sin. What is your response to 1) Matthew 19:9, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. " and 2) 1 Corinthians 7:15, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace"
My interpretation of these scriptures is 1) in the case of fornication, remarriage is allowed, and 2) if the unbeliever leaves, remarriage is allowed. If this is NOT your interpretation of these two particular scriptures, please tell me your interpretation and why.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2007 11:09:51 AM
|
|
|
Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 8024
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
It is amazing therefore that so-called "Christians" ...
ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
This is considered inflammatory and off-topic.
It stops now.
The next person to engage in this sort of style of participation in this thread can expect to be banned.
Adjust now please.
Thank you for your attention. Directly below this sentence is a few lines in big bold red letters. I've made them that way so that they will be read and followed. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Messages which disregard the words in red will be removed without warning and the poster may also be banned.
_____________________________
Fred "Fritz" Alberti
Director of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2007 2:43:57 PM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: christsgirl
Obviously, I have not read through all 220+ pages of this thread. But I just have two questions for those of you who believe that remarriage is a sin. What is your response to 1) Matthew 19:9, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. " and 2) 1 Corinthians 7:15, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace"
My interpretation of these scriptures is 1) in the case of fornication, remarriage is allowed, and 2) if the unbeliever leaves, remarriage is allowed. If this is NOT your interpretation of these two particular scriptures, please tell me your interpretation and why.
Hello Christsgirl,
Well, since we know that scripture interprets scripture, then we know that no one verse stands alone, if there are many other contradictory passages. The modern day popular interpreting of Mt. 19:9---to not only give permission to divorce, but also to remarry due to adultery committed within the marriage conflicts with good biblical interpreting methods.
We can look at all the other "marriage" passages and find that Jesus gives NO allowance to remarry without those remarrying committing adultery (adultery meaning joining oneself with another who is NOT your spouse---unlawful relations)----Mk. 10:1-12, Lk. 16:15-18).
We also have another "witness" in Paul's teachings----actually 2 witnesses, that marriage endures "til death"----Rom. 7:2-3, and I Cor. 7:39. Lest people say that in Rom. 7 Paul was merely teaching about the law/Christ, Paul also taught another church----the Corinthian church, that the marriage bond endures until the death of one of the spouses. For those who say in Rom that Paul was merely using a type of analogy when speaking of marriage, they do not know how to explain the fact that Paul did not just use any ol' marriage in his illustration of freedom/bondage, he used an adulterous wife as an example..........and, he maintained in such cases that the marriage bond endured til the DEATH of the spouse. Then, and only then, could the "left one" marry without committing adultery. If they did so while the spouse remained alive, they would be called an adulteress/adulterer...........
So, what does Mt. 19:9 mean? That is the question of the day, isn't it? What we do know for sure is that Jesus used 2 different words in that text---moichea (adultery) and porniea (a form of sexual immorality, including: pre-marital relations(fornication), incest, adultery, homosexuality, etc). We also know that in Matthew we find the ONLY so called "allowance" to divorce and possibly to remarry. We also know that in Matthew we are given an example of betrothal divorce (Mt. 1:18-24).
We also know that Jesus' disciples were SHOCKED at His teachings.........and they KNEW the practices of the day---putting away wives for ANY cause and putting wives away for adultery. If they knew these customs, and if they knew how the conservative applied Moses' law (only for adultery), why were they so shocked at Jesus' teachings? We must remember that some of them were followers of John the Baptist.........the same one who confronted Herod about having his brother Philip's wife! They KNEW the MOST conservative viewpoint!
As for I Cor. 7:15, I do not believe a believer is entitled to remarry. There is absolutely no evidence that the marriage bond, the one Paul just got done speaking about, is somehow dissolved. As a matter of fact, it appears that Paul's focus is on winning the lost----through peaceful means. I dont' see where he teaches anything different than what he has been teaching----the marriage endures til death. What I do see him teaching is that if an unbeliever leaves, the believer is to let them go----peacefully.....that the believer is not obligated to maintain the marital relationship (they are to "remain unmarried"). The believer is guiltless in the eyes of God. What we also know is that "remain unmarried" in I Cor. 7:10-11 does NOT entitle one(a believer) to remarry, though they are given permission to "remain unmarried(to not have to fulfill the marital obligations). Blessings..........
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2007 4:37:04 PM
|
|
|
blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: christsgirl
Obviously, I have not read through all 220+ pages of this thread. But I just have two questions for those of you who believe that remarriage is a sin. What is your response to 1) Matthew 19:9, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. " and 2) 1 Corinthians 7:15, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace"
My interpretation of these scriptures is 1) in the case of fornication, remarriage is allowed, and 2) if the unbeliever leaves, remarriage is allowed. If this is NOT your interpretation of these two particular scriptures, please tell me your interpretation and why.
Hi Christsgirl,
1) this is as it says, IF you are from the Israelites and Jesus has not come yet. Jesus was referring to fornication or betrothal adultery, and that is why it is in Matthew, the gospel to the Jews. Also, when taken as it is read, as a Gospel with a reference to Jewish betrothal practice for fornication, it can be in agreement with the other Gospels as far as what Jesus wanted.
You might read some of the 220+ pages, at least by searching for your terms. This has been addressed in the history of this thread.
2) Yes, an unbeliever should not be held down, or given church discipline, but this verse does not go on to say that the one left (assuming its a believer) is free to marry. It does not say that there is no marriage, it does not say that the action of the unbeliever nullifies the marriage. And it certainly says nothing about this action by an unbeliever putting asunder what God has put together.
That is where culture has influenced us, and people have added "extra-biblical" concepts to this verse. This has has led many people into unbiblical compromise in their life.. because:
1)Mark 10:10-12 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
and
2)Luke 16: 18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and, the most convicting of Jesus' words on divorce, in my opinion.....
3)They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
We have talked a lot about what constitutes, if anything, a biblical divorce....
Jesus teaches against divorce as a solution.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2007 9:43:57 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
1) this is as it says, IF you are from the Israelites and Jesus has not come yet. Jesus was referring to fornication or betrothal adultery, and that is why it is in Matthew, the gospel to the Jews. Also, when taken as it is read, as a Gospel with a reference to Jewish betrothal practice for fornication, it can be in agreement with the other Gospels as far as what Jesus wanted.
Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Clearly Jesus' answer to the Pharisees question about divorce was no. The Pharisees then went on to ask about the Old Covenant Law which seemed to offer a type of "divorce":
Matthew 19:7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery."
His answer to them was that there was a type of "divorce offered to the Jews because of their hard heartedness, but it was only for the cause of fornication, and therefore all other divorces ans subsequent remarriages were actually adulterous affairs. This was what the Law of Moses always allowed for which was a type of anulment of the marriage covenant if the woman was found to have commited fornication before he married her. This is where people often get confused, because in marriages back then they would make a marriage covenant about a year before the actual marriage. They were legally bound together at that point and could never separate, but they lived separate lives for a period of time called the betrothal. Then when they came together and were married, the Law allowed the man to "divorce" her if he found her sexually indecent:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
He could "divorce" her if he found her to not be a virgin, "when he married her." The process was described earlier in the Law, but with the divorce provision offered here:
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and {then} turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, {but} when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the {evidence} of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred {shekels} of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days. "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
This was the process for determining sexual indecency, and an added provision was added to divorce her rather than having her put to death in Chapter 24. This is the "fornication" that Jesus said was the lawful grounds for divorce when discussing the Law of Moses with the Pharisees. This is also what Joseph was going to use to divorce Mary when he thought she had committed betrothal fornication:
Matthew 1:18-19, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
Joseph planned to send Mary away according to Deuteronomy 24, because he believed that she was guilty of betrothal fornication.
Here is another example in scripture:
John 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication (porneia); we have one Father: God."
In this text, the Pharisees give a bit of a back handed sneer at Jesus, claiming that the was born of "porneia" which is the term that Jesus said was grounds for divorce in Matthew 19. This claim could be made by anyone since it is obvious that Mary was pregnant before her and Joseph were married. Therefore they are accusing Jesus of being born by sexual promiscuity before his parents were married (in the betrothal period).
This is the only exception in scripture, and really isn't an exception at all to those of us who do not practice betrothal covenants. It only served as an anulment of a marriage covenant to those who did, if the woman was found sexually unchaste before they were married. There is no provision anywhere in scripture for those under the Old or New covenants, or anyone else, to practice the type of "divorce" that we know of today. That is why Jesus said it is adultery to do so.
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
The usual practice of the Pharisees was to undermine God's Laws by twisting His words so that they could violate them while claiming to be righteous. That is what Jesus was exposing in Matthew 19, and was condemning them as adulterers for illegally divorcing their wives and then taking new ones. The penalty for adultery under the Old Covenant was death, so that was a harsh judgment Jesus was leveling against these Pharisees by essentially calling them adulterers worthy of death.
Here is the other verse where He mentions this so-called exception:
Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Here He is quoting Deuteronomy 24, and again it is a condemnation against the Jewish people for their perversion of the Old Covenant Laws. Again His audience was being told that their illegal divorces apart from betrothal fornication, and subsequent remarriages were actually adulterous affairs which made them worthy of death according to this Law.
You'll notice also that Jesus tells them that a woman who was innocent of betrothal fornication, and was divorced by her husband, was made to commit adultery by her husband unlawfully divorcing her. This shows how serious God takes the covenant when an innocent victim of divorce by a treacherous husband is guilty of adultery if she is forced to join to another man for survival.
You'll also notice that Jesus says here "whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Clearly therefore a woman's "divorce" does not end the marriage covenant, because otherwise it couldn't be adultery to marry her. Adultery by definition is the sin of a married person having sexual relations with someone who is not their spouse.
The whole of scripture only makes sense when one takes into account the context of the statements. When Jesus is speaking to Old Covenant Jews He mentions the provision to divorce for betrothal fornication, and when He is speaking to those entering the New Covenant He says there are no exceptions. Those who claim there are exceptions for New Covenant believers cause Jesus to seem to contradict Himself.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2007 2:31:43 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
“ it only applied to the "porneia" that the Old Covenant Law said it applied to, which was a husband finding his wife sexually unclean "WHEN HE MARRIED HER."
Although I agree with many of your points, I do think this is over simplifying the issue of remarriage. First of all the passage in Deut. 24:1 states that he finds “something indecent (ervat davar) “ and not explicitly something “sexually unclean”; although sexually unclean is likely the best understanding of this phrase in this context, it is not the only possibility. The exact same phrase is used in Deut. 23:14 (23:15 in the MT) when describing the rules about how and where to place toilets so that the camp remained clean. Additionally it is grammatically difficult to support the idea that the husband must find something indecent “WHEN HE MARRIED HER” from this passage because all of the verbs are in the future tense i.e “and it will be that she will not find favor in his eyes”. I think it is also important when looking at this issue to understand the motivation of the Pharisees. In 1st Century Judaism there was a huge debate about what constituted “something indecent”; those who followed the school of Hillel believed that this constituted almost anything including burning a husband’s food, and clearly because of the question they asked i.e.”Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” we know that those who were questioning Jesus where from the school of Hillel. I think that it is important to note; however, that the issue Moses was addressing was the issue of a remarriage of a husband to a wife he already divorced when there had been an intervening marriage. In other words the Pharisees had already taken this out of context to prove their point of view.
Jesus begins his response in by showing (from Gen.) that marriage is an institute established by God and states that “what God has joined together, let man not separate.” In response to the question about Moses, Jesus states that Moses permitted divorce because our “hearts where hard.” Looking at the disciples reaction we can be assured that the standard that Jesus set for divorce was very high because the disciples stated that “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
If I were to summarize this whole passage, what I see is that the focus of the Pharisees had come to the point where they were looking for every possible way to “biblically” get out of a marriage i.e. “What will God permit?”, but Jesus was trying to change the focus to “What does God desire?” The difference between these questions where our heart is. Is it hard i.e. selfishly looking to its own desires first, or is it looking to submit to God’s will regardless of the cost. Like you, I to believe that far too often when I hear this debate, it seems to me that the heart of the issue resembles more closely that of the Pharisees rather than the heart of Christ. Yes, I do think that remarriage is permitted in the case of adultery, but far too often this seems to be viewed as the “Free ticket” out of a marriage, and I find it hard to believe that it is really God’s desire that we abandon our spouse because they committed adultery. In Eph. 5:25 God calls husbands to “love your wives, just has Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, …”, something to think about is that Christ “gave himself up” for a people who had already rejected him. Some food for thought is that the marriage God used to give us a picture of his love for his people was the marriage of Hosea and Gomer. Hosea endured many years of infidelity, separation and maybe even divorce, and yet he was called by God to reconcile. If this is the picture God has given us of how he loves his people, and he has told us that we are to love our wives in the same way, do we really look at divorce with the same heart as God does?
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 
