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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2007 3:06:15 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
If I were to summarize this whole passage, what I see is that the focus of the Pharisees had come to the point where they were looking for every possible way to “biblically” get out of a marriage i.e. “What will God permit?”, but Jesus was trying to change the focus to “What does God desire?” The difference between these questions where our heart is. Is it hard i.e. selfishly looking to its own desires first, or is it looking to submit to God’s will regardless of the cost. Like you, I to believe that far too often when I hear this debate, it seems to me that the heart of the issue resembles more closely that of the Pharisees rather than the heart of Christ. Yes, I do think that remarriage is permitted in the case of adultery, but far too often this seems to be viewed as the “Free ticket” out of a marriage, and I find it hard to believe that it is really God’s desire that we abandon our spouse because they committed adultery. In Eph. 5:25 God calls husbands to “love your wives, just has Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, …”, something to think about is that Christ “gave himself up” for a people who had already rejected him. Some food for thought is that the marriage God used to give us a picture of his love for his people was the marriage of Hosea and Gomer. Hosea endured many years of infidelity, separation and maybe even divorce, and yet he was called by God to reconcile. If this is the picture God has given us of how he loves his people, and he has told us that we are to love our wives in the same way, do we really look at divorce with the same heart as God does?
Hi Benelchi,
I agree with your conclusions highlighted above. I however, must ask you this: Given you believe Gomer/Hosea is a picture for a Christian on marriage principles, how do you then say you believe remarriage is permittable for a Christian? If it is, God is saying that we CANNOT love as Christ loves........then we are back to the Pharisee's hard-heartedness.
For me, either God allows ALL Christians to divorce/remarry for adultery or He does not. If He does allow this, then that must mean the original bond HE joined together is now dissolved, freeing BOTH parties to pursue other relationships.
I have heard it said many times that for some the Lord calls them to stand for marriage restoration and for others, the Lord releases them to pursue another marriage with a different partner. I personally do not believe the Lord binds SOME to the mate they were joined to, yet frees others to join with a different mate. How do we reconcile such teachings with scripture? Romans 7:2-3 shows that even in the face of adultery, Paul teaches the marriage bond endures---til death. I believe this is what we see with Hosea and Gomer. The bond endured, even in spite of her adulteries. God wanted Hosea to endure to...........being faithful to his wife and walking in forgiveness towards her. This is what I believe ALL Christians are called to. If a man is free to marry another woman due to her adultery, then is he walking out the "gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word"? Just a thought. Blessings......
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2007 3:51:59 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4613
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
I agree with your conclusions highlighted above. I however, must ask you this: Given you believe Gomer/Hosea is a picture for a Christian on marriage principles, how do you then say you believe remarriage is permittable for a Christian? If it is, God is saying that we CANNOT love as Christ loves........then we are back to the Pharisee's hard-heartedness.
lastblast,
thanks for your reply.
I believe that there are two requirements that must be met before a remarriage is permitted. First, reconciliation must not be possible. I think the standards are pretty high on this one, but the most common reasons for this would be the death of a spouse, the remarriage of a spouse, or abandonment of an unbelieving spouse. Although I believe that almost always the spouse who initially remarries is in sin when they choose to remarry, I do believe that leaving the door open to reconciliation at this point is wrong because it would require the breaking of a new marriage covenant in order to restore the old one. I think this is really the heart of the passage in Deut. 24:1-4. Second, I believe that their must be complete repentance and a history that reflects that repentance before even "dating", let alone remarrying.
I think the theologically difficult questions are: are there any other circumstances could make reconciliation impossible?; one, one extreme example that could fall in to this category would be a spouse who commits murder and is sent to prison for life. How long must someone be abandoned before remarriage is permitted? or, Who decides whether the spouse who is abandoning a marriage is a believer?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2007 5:44:18 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 670
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
This is the only exception in scripture, and really isn't an exception at all to those of us who do not practice betrothal covenants. It only served as an anulment of a marriage covenant to those who did, if the woman was found sexually unchaste before they were married. There is no provision anywhere in scripture for those under the Old or New covenants, or anyone else, to practice the type of "divorce" that we know of today. That is why Jesus said it is adultery to do so.
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
The usual practice of the Pharisees was to undermine God's Laws by twisting His words so that they could violate them while claiming to be righteous. That is what Jesus was exposing in Matthew 19, and was condemning them as adulterers for illegally divorcing their wives and then taking new ones. The penalty for adultery under the Old Covenant was death, so that was a harsh judgment Jesus was leveling against these Pharisees by essentially calling them adulterers worthy of death.
Here is the other verse where He mentions this so-called exception:
Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Here He is quoting Deuteronomy 24, and again it is a condemnation against the Jewish people for their perversion of the Old Covenant Laws. Again His audience was being told that their illegal divorces apart from betrothal fornication, and subsequent remarriages were actually adulterous affairs which made them worthy of death according to this Law.
You'll notice also that Jesus tells them that a woman who was innocent of betrothal fornication, and was divorced by her husband, was made to commit adultery by her husband unlawfully divorcing her. This shows how serious God takes the covenant when an innocent victim of divorce by a treacherous husband is guilty of adultery if she is forced to join to another man for survival.
You'll also notice that Jesus says here "whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Clearly therefore a woman's "divorce" does not end the marriage covenant, because otherwise it couldn't be adultery to marry her. Adultery by definition is the sin of a married person having sexual relations with someone who is not their spouse.
The whole of scripture only makes sense when one takes into account the context of the statements. When Jesus is speaking to Old Covenant Jews He mentions the provision to divorce for betrothal fornication, and when He is speaking to those entering the New Covenant He says there are no exceptions. Those who claim there are exceptions for New Covenant believers cause Jesus to seem to contradict Himself.
SealedEternal
All of what you wrote is well spoken, Sealed. I only quoted some due to space.
Jesus says it so clearly....that to marry a divorced woman is to commit adultery. That to be a divorced woman, however it happens, and to marry another, is adultery.
There is no provision anywhere in scripture for those under the Old or New covenants, or anyone else, to practice the type of "divorce" that we know of today. That is why Jesus said it is adultery to do so.
I requote you here as this is the tension point. I am meeting people sometimes DAILY that are in some form or woundedness from this type of sin. Some weeks it may be only one or two, but others it is more frequent.
It is important to remember that sin is exponentially destructive, not just hurting our lives but the lives we have been charged to safekeep.
It seems that Jesus emphasized the man's responsibility, perhaps because men were doing the divorcing and there was the hebrew word for husband, owner that implied it was more about property.
Would you comment, Sealed, on the woman's responsibility in remaining married/not commiting adultery through marriage to another while her spouse still lives?
1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
comes to mind....
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2007 9:52:36 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
the most common reasons for this would be the death of a spouse, the remarriage of a spouse, or abandonment of an unbelieving spouse. Although I believe that almost always the spouse who initially remarries is in sin when they choose to remarry, I do believe that leaving the door open to reconciliation at this point is wrong because it would require the breaking of a new marriage covenant in order to restore the old one.
Ok, let me ask you this: what is the difference in EXTRA-MARITAL adultery before/after a divorce and the adultery that occurs with a remarriage. The definition of adultery does not change........in both cases it means to have unlawful relations with someone who is NOT your spouse. In regards to the marriage vows taken in a remarriage, if they are in adultery that means they are joining with someone who is NOT their spouse. Do you believe taking a vow one is not free to take nullifies the original vow?
quote:
I think this is really the heart of the passage in Deut. 24:1-4 .
I don't agree with that interpretation of Deut. 24. The wife is not defiled by the second marriage, the defilement was supposedly BEFORE the original divorce took place. It was THAT reason, and the allowance for the man to put away this defiled woman, that he was not allowed to take her again---------OT law, not applicable for New Covenant peoples.
quote:
Second, I believe that their must be complete repentance and a history that reflects that repentance before even "dating", let alone remarrying .
What is repentance? Is it not only a heart change, but also forsaking sin? If one is in an adulterous relationship, doesn't true repentance require stopping the adultery?
quote:
I think the theologically difficult questions are: are there any other circumstances could make reconciliation impossible?; one, one extreme example that could fall in to this category would be a spouse who commits murder and is sent to prison for life. How long must someone be abandoned before remarriage is permitted? or, Who decides whether the spouse who is abandoning a marriage is a believer?
I think scripture is pretty clear in this situations, though many will not follow God's commands, but would rather "reason" why they SHOULD be allowed to transgress the Lord's Word to them. The Lord commanded, through Paul, that in such cases a woman/man should REMAIN UNMARRIED or be reconciled. If a woman's husband is in jail, she needs to walk out Mt. 25 towards him...........not abandon him for another man. That is what we ALL have been called to-----as ministers of reconciliation. 
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2007 11:31:20 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1247
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
It seems that Jesus emphasized the man's responsibility, perhaps because men were doing the divorcing and there was the hebrew word for husband, owner that implied it was more about property.
Would you comment, Sealed, on the woman's responsibility in remaining married/not commiting adultery through marriage to another while her spouse still lives?
1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
comes to mind....
That verse says it pretty clearly. These are good as well:
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Jesus does address women's responsibility also:
Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
You are correct about Jesus emphasizing the man's responsibility primarily, which was probably because the Hebrew culture was very male dominant. As you said, one of the Hebrew terms for husband was "ba‛al" which literally meant master, lord, or owner. In the same way, in the New Testament He says that the man should be the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church. I think this is why He said that a husband could make his wife an adulteress by unjustly divorcing her, even if she had done nothing to deserve it:
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
We can set aside the debate over what "unchastity" He was referring to here because this woman was innocent of it. Jesus says that this man was making her commit adultery by divorcing her unjustly. Again this was probably because in the male dominated culture there, a woman who was thrown out of her husbands home would normally look for another man to support her. Yet Jesus still says she is guilty of adultery even though it was her husband who put her in that predicament by unjustly divorcing her. And then He went on to say that the man who married her was also now an adulterer for marrying another man's wife, even though that man had just divorced her. This illustrates how seriously God takes this issue, and that there are no exceptions to His commands.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 12:21:21 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 438
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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Hi benelchi,
Welcome to this thread in Jesus' Name.
quote:
I believe that there are two requirements that must be met before a remarriage is permitted. First, reconciliation must not be possible. I think the standards are pretty high on this one, but the most common reasons for this would be the death of a spouse, the remarriage of a spouse, or abandonment of an unbelieving spouse.
The only justification for remarriage is the death of a spouse. The other grounds for remarriage i.e. failure of reconciliation and the abandonment of an unbelieving spouse are not justified at all.
Failure of reconciliation
Just because the reconciliation has failed, the aggrieved spouse is not supposed to commit the sin of adultery by way of remarriage. Suppose the aggrieved spouse concerned remarries another person after the reconciliation process has failed. Let us presume that again the remarried spouse concerned faces the same problem of cruelty or harassment from the other spouse. Again, the process of reconciliation has failed in this remarriage also. Will it justify remarriage? How many times a person can remarry? Please tell me. If one time it is allowed, why cannot be allowed umpteen times?
Abandonment of an unbelieving spouse
Please note that according to I Cor.7:15, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases but God hath called us to peace" (I Cor.7:15). I believe you are arguing on the basis of this verse. Let him depart from that person whom he had married. The brother or the sister who wants to depart from the unbelieving spouse is not under bondage to live with the unbelieving spouse. It is a mere separation from the unbelieving spouse. When the unbelieving spouse accepts Jesus Christ as the Savior, then the believing spouse can come and rejoin the other spouse. Please note that the word "divorce" is not used. You have to read it in conjunction with the verses 12 and 13 wherein it is written clearly that the unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believing spouse. If the believing spouse is not able to tolerate the unbelieving spouse any longer, the former can depart from that house to live separately. Please note that if the believing spouse remarries during the life time of the other spouse, then the former commits the sin of adultery.
Yes, if the unbelieving spouse and the believing spouse cannot live together peacefully, there will be turmoil. That is why Paul writes to the believing spouse to depart and to live separately. He did not exhort the believing spouse to remarry after seeking a formal divorce from the court of law. Do not add anything to the Pauline epistle.
You cannot just pick up one verse and read it out of context. The word "But" which begins the verse 15 is very important. The unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the life of the believing spouse when both of them live together. But if the unbelieving spouse decides to depart due to the unbearable persecuction, let him do so. You cannot force the unbelieving spouse who wants to leave your house. The unbellieving spouse can depart. The word "depart" does not mean "going away" once and for all. If I am departing from my house for my office, I will come back to my house. I will not stay back in my office for ever. The house of the believing spouse is still open to the unbelieving spouse. Just because the unbelieving spouse has departed from the house, the believing spouse is not free to choose another guy as her husband. Where is the word "divorce" used here? Do you mean to say that the word "depart" means "divorce"?
Please note that the believing sister or the believing brother is not under bondage to this unbelieving spouse who is persecuting the believing spouse on account of the faith. For example, a married couple who were Hindus before their marriage have heard the glorious gospel. One of them has accepted Jesus Christ and the other spouse has not accepted the same. The unbelieving spouse does not feel comfortable in the house wherein the believing spouses practices his/her new faith in Jesus Christ. If this unbelieving spouse wants to leave the house, then the believing spouse cannot physically prevent the former from leaving the house because the believing spouse is not under bondage to the unbelieving spouse. This does not mean that the believing spouse can immediately remarry once the unbelieving spouse leaves the house. Faith in Jesus Christ does not lead us to sin but to righteousness. Is the act of divorce and remarriage righteous in the sight of God? How can you justify divorce and remarriage in this regard?
quote:
Although I believe that almost always the spouse who initially remarries is in sin when they choose to remarry, I do believe that leaving the door open to reconciliation at this point is wrong because it would require the breaking of a new marriage covenant in order to restore the old one. I think this is really the heart of the passage in Deut. 24:1-4. Second, I believe that their must be complete repentance and a history that reflects that repentance before even "dating", let alone remarrying.
I again repeat here that the failure of a reconciliation process is not the ground for remarriage. Marriage is for life. No man can separate whom God has put together. Only death separates them. The widow or the widower is free to marry another person (not a divorcee with a living spouse) in the Lord. The passage in Deut. 24:1-4 is not applicable to the believers of the Covenant of Grace. It was applicable only to the Pharisees of the Old Testament who wanted to divorce their wives. Where are the Pharisees today in our midst? Please show me them today.
quote:
I think the theologically difficult questions are: are there any other circumstances could make reconciliation impossible?; one, one extreme example that could fall in to this category would be a spouse who commits murder and is sent to prison for life. How long must someone be abandoned before remarriage is permitted? or, Who decides whether the spouse who is abandoning a marriage is a believer?
If the spouse concerned who is in jail for life can be forgiven through the Blood of Jesus Christ, why cannot the other believing spouse divorce the condemned prisoner for whom Christ has died, and take the extreme step of marrying another person? Just because the condemned prisoner is in jail, will it abrogate the husband-wife relationship? According to you, the prisoner had committed a murder and not the sin of adultery. A husband or a wife may be a life convict. Will this alter the marital status of the other spouse? There are thousands of married prisoners languishing in jails all over the world. Do you want their spouses to divorce them and to remarry other persons?
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/19/2007 12:43:35 AM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 12:27:34 AM
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fallcolors
Posts: 8
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
It seems that Jesus emphasized the man's responsibility, perhaps because men were doing the divorcing and there was the hebrew word for husband, owner that implied it was more about property.
Would you comment, Sealed, on the woman's responsibility in remaining married/not commiting adultery through marriage to another while her spouse still lives?
1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
comes to mind....
That verse says it pretty clearly. These are good as well:
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Jesus does address women's responsibility also:
Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
You are correct about Jesus emphasizing the man's responsibility primarily, which was probably because the Hebrew culture was very male dominant. As you said, one of the Hebrew terms for husband was "ba?al" which literally meant master, lord, or owner. In the same way, in the New Testament He says that the man should be the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church. I think this is why He said that a husband could make his wife an adulteress by unjustly divorcing her, even if she had done nothing to deserve it:
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
We can set aside the debate over what "unchastity" He was referring to here because this woman was innocent of it. Jesus says that this man was making her commit adultery by divorcing her unjustly. Again this was probably because in the male dominated culture there, a woman who was thrown out of her husbands home would normally look for another man to support her. Yet Jesus still says she is guilty of adultery even though it was her husband who put her in that predicament by unjustly divorcing her. And then He went on to say that the man who married her was also now an adulterer for marrying another man's wife, even though that man had just divorced her. This illustrates how seriously God takes this issue, and that there are no exceptions to His commands.
SealedEternal
Interesting thread
Just some food for thought
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Ex20:14
We should not commit adultery as to go against a commandment but people do it everyday including believers. Who do you know that has never broken this commandment? Have you ever lusted? If so you have broken this commandment. We can asks for forgiveness and God will forgive. There is not one in this world who has not broken the ten commandments. There is forgeivness for all sins including adultery.
He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. Mr 10:11
Here is the way I read this if any man divorces and marries another woman he would be committing adultery against her {his wife} because of the vows he made to her before God and he would be going against Gods original plan for marriage. One should have remorse for sinning {committing adultery} they should repent. If they do repent God will forgive them. Even adulterers. I do not see remarriage as a continual state of adultery like some of you do.
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mt 19:6
Again here I see this as one should not go against Gods original plan for marriage because the two become one so the two should not let any man-woman put the marriage asunder. But if they do there is still forgiveness here also.
1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command not I, but the Lord: A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Yes again here the married couple should not separate and if she does she should remain as unmarried {not having sexual relations with other men} while she is still married. She should be reconciled to her husband as soon as possible so she would not be tempted to fall into sin with other men. A man should not divorce his wife he should do everything to save his marriage first.
Gods original plan for marriage is not to divorce if possible {they should remain married till death do them part} they should uphold the vow they made to one other before God. Divorce brings so much disorder, hurtful feelings, childrens hearts are broken and so on this is why God hates divorce. If divorce is committed and people repent and later remarry I believe there is forgiveness for these people. What sin does the blood of Jesus not cover when someone truly repents? Please tell me?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 1:26:45 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4613
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
Do you believe taking a vow one is not free to take nullifies the original vow?
Yes, I do believe that taking a new vow of marriage after a divorce nullifies the original vow; however, I believe very strongly that the choice to do so would be wrong i.e. sin, but the fact that the vow was entered in sin does not nullify that vow. I think we both agree that someone cannot by vow be bound to two different spouses, the question is which vow takes precedence. My opinion on this is that the choice to make such a vow while reconciliation is still a possibility can only be done by someone while in rebellion towards God, and with the full intent to break the original vow or the assumption that they had already broken it.
quote:
I don't agree with that interpretation of Deut. 24. The wife is not defiled by the second marriage, the defilement was supposedly BEFORE the original divorce took place. It was THAT reason, and the allowance for the man to put away this defiled woman, that he was not allowed to take her again---------OT law, not applicable for New Covenant peoples.
First, I see no indication in this passage that the 2nd marriage was "defiled" nor do I see any indication that would suggest that the 2nd marriage covenant was invalid.
Second, I believe that the OT law is applied differently to new covenant people, but I don't believe that it is irrelevant to them. Jesus himself drew from both this passage, and the passage in Gen. when dealing with the Pharisees on this issue, he did not seem to believe that it was irrelevant, and most of the NT authors drew heavily from the Old Testament. Additionally, Jesus states in Mt. 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
quote:
What is repentance? Is it not only a heart change, but also forsaking sin? If one is in an adulterous relationship, doesn't true repentance require stopping the adultery?
I agree with your definition of repentance, but not the definition of adultery that you used here. The difference is that I believe strongly that the covenant of a 2nd marriage is binding even when it was entered into in sin. Requiring someone to break that covenant would be wrong, so breaking that covenant couldn't be required as an act of repentance. The point I was making about repentance; however, was not directed towards the spouse who broke the covenant, but at the spouse who was now unable to reconcile the marriage because the vow was broken.
quote:
I think scripture is pretty clear in this situations, though many will not follow God's commands, but would rather "reason" why they SHOULD be allowed to transgress the Lord's Word to them. The Lord commanded, through Paul, that in such cases a woman/man should REMAIN UNMARRIED or be reconciled. If a woman's husband is in jail, she needs to walk out Mt. 25 towards him...........not abandon him for another man. That is what we ALL have been called to-----as ministers of reconciliation.
I agree with you that more times than not, people when choosing to sin will try to "reason" their way around God's word in order justify actions that they know are sinful, but I also know that many people who have no particular stake in this debate, either because they married only once or they have never been married, still struggle with interpreting some of these passages and understanding their application. Sometimes these passages are difficult to interpret because of what was not said, for example, in 1 Co. Paul makes provisions for a believer who is abandoned by an unbelieving spouse. Is the declaration by the unbelieving spouse about their intent to leave enough to break the vow, or does some amount of time need to pass before the vow is irrevocably broken? Does there need to be a "certificate of divorce" or is abandonment enough? If some amount of time needs to pass, how long is it? Is this only applicable when a non-believer becomes a believer and their spouse does not, or does this include cases where a believer (in sin) chose to marry an unbeliever? What is pretty clear in this passage is that Paul made an allowance when an unbeliever leaves a marriage, but the details of this are something we are going to have to struggle with. My point is that not everyone who disagrees with your interpretation of these passages does so with the intent to circumvent God's command's, many are honestly trying to understand what he has said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 1:50:20 AM
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fallcolors
Posts: 8
Status: offline
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quote:
My point is that not everyone who disagrees with your interpretation of these passages does so with the intent to circumvent God's command's, many are honestly trying to understand what he has said.
I agree with you. Many are seeking the truth. I being one of them. I appreciate your humble approach.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 2:36:50 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4613
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From: California
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quote:
Just because the reconciliation has failed, the aggrieved spouse is not supposed to commit the sin of adultery by way of remarriage.
I agree with you, but what I had said in my original post was that reconciliation was not possible, not that it had simply failed. When there continues to be an opportunity to seek reconciliation, I do not believe remarriage is an option. I do believe however that there are circumstances where seeking reconsideration would be wrong such as when a spouse has already remarried; it is in those circumstances I believe that reconciliation is not possible.
quote:
The word "depart" does not mean "going away" once and for all. If I am departing from my house for my office, I will come back to my house. I will not stay back in my office for ever.
The question here really is how did the original recipients of this letter understand "depart" or "a believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances", yes context is always important, but that context must include the culture and time period in which the letter was written. Most of what I have read would suggest a different understanding than what you have given. Even the conclusion of this passage makes it hard support the maybe he/she will return interpretation because Paul concludes with "Or, How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?", that doesn't seem like the kind of thing you would say to someone you were encouraging to stay and wait for the conversion and return home of their unbelieving spouse.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 3:02:06 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 438
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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fallcolors,
quote:
God's original plan for marriage is not to divorce if possible {they should remain married till death do them part} they should uphold the vow they made to one other before God. Divorce brings so much disorder, hurtful feelings, children's hearts are broken and so on this is why God hates divorce. If divorce is committed and people repent and later remarry I believe there is forgiveness for these people. What sin does the blood of Jesus not cover when someone truly repents? Please tell me?
What matters here is not merely the act of repentance one makes after the divorce. After repentance, the spouse concerned should not remarry at all. If the spouse concerned is remarried, what is the fate of the children born to the spouse concerned during the earlier marriage? Apart from the aspect of the sin of adultery to be committed by way of this remarriage, the act of remarriage by the spouse concerned will definitely affect the moral and spiritual life of the children as rightly pointed out by you. As a single mother/a single parent, she/he can take care of her/his children without committing the folly of remarriage.
Yes, the Blood of Jesus Christ covers the sin of adultery committed by a spouse. As such, the sin of adultery should not be a ground for divorce under the Covenant of grace.
Please note that the act of divorce is not a sin at all. If someone has divorced his spouse, it is an act of iniquity. Of course, a spouse who has committed this iniquity can repent of this. After repentance, he or she should not commit the sin of adultery by remarriage. If any remarried spouse repents of her/his sin of adultery committed by way of remarriage, the Blood of Jesus Christ does cover this sin and the spouse concerned should not live with the same mate after repentance. We have already discussed threadbare this issue in our earlier posts. Please take time to read the same prayerfully with an open mind.
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/19/2007 3:11:40 AM >
_____________________________
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:00:07 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
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quote:
He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. Mr 10:11
Here is the way I read this if any man divorces and marries another woman he would be committing adultery against her {his wife} because of the vows he made to her before God and he would be going against Gods original plan for marriage. One should have remorse for sinning {committing adultery} they should repent. If they do repent God will forgive them. Even adulterers. I do not see remarriage as a continual state of adultery like some of you do.
Hello fallcolors,
Let's interpret this verse in a more simplified way. Instead of restating what you believe this to mean, let's just insert the definition of adultery into that and leave everything else the same.
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another has unlawful intercourse"................and if we add that to what is said in Mt. 19:9 and Lk. 16:18, we get this: "Anyone who marries one put away has unlawful intercourse with another's wife"..........
So, I think it's plain to see, alongside what Paul teaches in Rom. 7, that the adultery consists of being in an unlawful relationship with SOMEONE ELSE'S spouse----in God's sight. We may "think" we are lawfully married to someone, but what does God say? He says in the very act of marriage, we are committing adultery----having unlawful relations with someone who is NOT our spouse. How can one then think this person IS their spouse, when the very definition of adultery disputes that this is the person one is married to? With that thought then, how would it be that one can STAY in such a relationship and believe themself to truly be walking out repentance?
quote:
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mt 19:6
Again here I see this as one should not go against Gods original plan for marriage because the two become one so the two should not let any man-woman put the marriage asunder. But if they do there is still forgiveness here also.
This is a command. If one does not abide by it, it does not mean God is obliged to dissolve what He joined together. He has already stated HOW a marriage is to be dissolved that He joined together (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). If one does not choose to follow the Lord's commands in this, they will commit adultery by joining with another----because they have not been freed by God to be with another.
quote:
1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command not I, but the Lord: A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Yes again here the married couple should not separate and if she does she should remain as unmarried {not having sexual relations with other men} while she is still married.
There is dispute about what "remain unmarried" means, but I think the clear meaning here is that such a woman is NOT free to be with any man other than her husband. If she disregards this---and marries another man, she will be as the woman spoken of in Rom. 7:2-3, an adulteress. How does an adulteress repent? She forsakes the relationship that is adultery. In Rom. 7:2-3, we see that she will remain an adulteress until her LAWFUL husband dies................then, and only then will she be free to be with another man.
quote:
Gods original plan for marriage is not to divorce if possible
God's original plan was no divorce, not "if possible".
quote:
Divorce brings so much disorder, hurtful feelings, childrens hearts are broken and so on this is why God hates divorce.
Actually, when God speaks that He hates divorce, it is in regards to the putting away of one's COVENANT(lawful) spouse......and yes, in those cases, it is VERY destructive----to the people involved and to society as a whole.
quote:
If divorce is committed and people repent and later remarry I believe there is forgiveness for these people. What sin does the blood of Jesus not cover when someone truly repents? Please tell me?
There is no sin that cannot be forgiven when one TRULY repents. To repent from adultery is to forsake the adulterous relationship. To repent does not mean to say "I'm sorry", feel bad, then go right back into the relationship God said was sin. Does that work with relationships God says are fornication? Does that work with relationships God says are homosexual? Does that work with other kinds of adultery (extramarital and just plain lusting (pornography, etc)? If we can say, "sorry", then go right back to doing what we were doing before that was sinful, we are not truly walking out repentance, are we? If we could find scripturally that somehow verbal confession/acknowledgement of sin/sorrow over sin, etc changes the very nature of that sin, then I would agree that the repentance you speak of was right. However, I have been unable to find ANY scripture to prove that a relationship that GOD defined as adulterous can be remained in while one has a living spouse........ever.
< Message edited by lastblast -- 9/19/2007 8:24:27 AM >
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:17:15 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
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quote:
Yes, I do believe that taking a new vow of marriage after a divorce nullifies the original vow; however, I believe very strongly that the choice to do so would be wrong i.e. sin, but the fact that the vow was entered in sin does not nullify that vow. I think we both agree that someone cannot by vow be bound to two different spouses, the question is which vow takes precedence. My opinion on this is that the choice to make such a vow while reconciliation is still a possibility can only be done by someone while in rebellion towards God, and with the full intent to break the original vow or the assumption that they had already broken it.
Well, I have to disagree with that stance because I don't believe it to be biblically based. AFTER a divorce, Jesus says that the parties commit adultery. To me, that says Jesus did NOT recognize a divorce as dissolving what HE joined together. If it is still joined then, ANY relationship entered into is adultery.........and that is exactly what He states in regards to remarriage. This is also what Paul teaches in Rom. 7:2-3 when he uses marriage in his analogy/illustration.
quote:
First, I see no indication in this passage that the 2nd marriage was "defiled" nor do I see any indication that would suggest that the 2nd marriage covenant was invalid.
I agree with you here. There is no indication that the second marriage is viewed as invalid. Actually, quite the opposite. So, if she is not "defiled" from the second marriage, then your view that she cannot return to the 1st husband does not make sense in light of what Jesus taught in the Gospels. In Deut. 24 the divorce IS recognized as freeing the woman to be with another. In the NT, divorce is NOT recognized as freeing a woman/or man to be married again without "being defiled"(committing adultery). Deut. 24 then is NOT relevant to what Jesus taught on MDR.
quote:
I agree with your definition of repentance, but not the definition of adultery that you used here. The difference is that I believe strongly that the covenant of a 2nd marriage is binding even when it was entered into in sin. Requiring someone to break that covenant would be wrong, so breaking that covenant couldn't be required as an act of repentance. The point I was making about repentance; however, was not directed towards the spouse who broke the covenant, but at the spouse who was now unable to reconcile the marriage because the vow was broken.
What in scripture leads you to believe that the second vow, made one when is NOT free to vow, is binding? Do you believe David was sinning in taking back his wife Michal from her second husband?
quote:
I agree with you that more times than not, people when choosing to sin will try to "reason" their way around God's word in order justify actions that they know are sinful, but I also know that many people who have no particular stake in this debate, either because they married only once or they have never been married, still struggle with interpreting some of these passages and understanding their application.
Yes, my husband and I are two of those...........we used to NOT understand what God spoke on marriage and accepted the current practices of the day in the church as OK. Then for some reason, the Lord put a strong desire in BOTH of us to study this out. We STRUGGLED to understand the truth of this issue, so I do understand that this is not an EASY thing to understand. I don't believe it's complicated due to the Word, but due to the accepted practices in the church today. What we see all around us has NUMBED us to God's TRUTH as written in His Word. Many find it difficult to rationally reason what is written before them in black and white/red. When we see Jesus saying that two who enter into a remarriage/another marriage commit adultery, what is He saying? Is it hard for people to see that Jesus did not recognize the divorce as dissolving the first marriage, and THAT is why the second is adultery?
quote:
Sometimes these passages are difficult to interpret because of what was not said, for example, in 1 Co. Paul makes provisions for a believer who is abandoned by an unbelieving spouse. Is the declaration by the unbelieving spouse about their intent to leave enough to break the vow, or does some amount of time need to pass before the vow is irrevocably broken? Does there need to be a "certificate of divorce" or is abandonment enough? If some amount of time needs to pass, how long is it? Is this only applicable when a non-believer becomes a believer and their spouse does not, or does this include cases where a believer (in sin) chose to marry an unbeliever? What is pretty clear in this passage is that Paul made an allowance when an unbeliever leaves a marriage, but the details of this are something we are going to have to struggle with. My point is that not everyone who disagrees with your interpretation of these passages does so with the intent to circumvent God's command's, many are honestly trying to understand what he has said.
Personally, I would rather err on the side of NOT sinning. If scripture IS clear that marriage endures until the death of one spouse........even in the face of adultery (Rom. 7:2-3), then I would rather NOT end up committing adultery. I would rather "remain unmarried"...........and serve the Lord wholeheartedly with a clean heart and clean conscience.
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 9:20:09 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of Remarriage After Divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 10:45:44 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4613
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Actually, when God speaks that He hates divorce, it is in regards to the putting away of one's COVENANT(lawful) spouse......and yes, in those cases, it is VERY destructive----to the people involved and to society as a whole.
quote:
If divorce is committed and people repent and later remarry I believe there is forgiveness for these people. What sin does the blood of Jesus not cover when someone truly repents? Please tell me?
There is no sin that cannot be forgiven when one TRULY repents. To repent from adultery is to forsake the adulterous relationship. To repent does not mean to say "I'm sorry", feel bad, then go right back into the relationship God said was sin. Does that work with relationships God says are fornication? Does that work with relationships God says are homosexual? Does that work with other kinds of adultery (extramarital and just plain lusting (pornography, etc)? If we can say, "sorry", then go right back to doing what we were doing before that was sinful, we are not truly walking out repentance, are we? If we could find scripturally that somehow verbal confession/acknowledgement of sin/sorrow over sin, etc changes the very nature of that sin, then I would agree that the repentance you speak of was right.
quote:
However, I have been unable to find ANY scripture to prove that a relationship that GOD defined as adulterous can be remained in while one has a living spouse........ever.
I think that you will find that it is equally hard to find any scripture that explicitly calls for divorcing a spouse because the marriage is considered "illegitimate". One of the difficulties with the view that some marriages are not binding is that the few scriptures that we have that refer to a 2nd marriage (like Duet. 24), don't seem to call into question the legitimacy of those marriages. You have made an assumption that the marriage covenant is "invalid" based on the fact that it was entered into in sin, but I can not find any scripture that supports this claim. I think we all agree that divorce is wrong (sin), and it seems that everyone here would agree that a remarriage that takes place while there is still a possibility for reconciliation is sin. Where we differ is in how we view the status of a marriage that was entered into in sin, and what we believe about the status of the original marriage covenant after that sin was committed. I don't see anywhere in scripture the idea that you put forward that God only hates divorce when a 1st marriage is involved, you have to make a lot of assumption to arrive at that conclusion. I personally believe that asking someone to divorce would be not only be encouraging sin, but would also be involving me in their sin. This is the reason why I believe that a willingness to reconcile with a spouse that has remarried is wrong; when that marriage begins to have struggles (and it will), you may end up providing an easy escape and ultimately encourage a divorce that should not have happened. I think this is why there is this prohibition in Duet. 24
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 12:31:41 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 438
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Just because the reconciliation has failed, the aggrieved spouse is not supposed to commit the sin of adultery by way of remarriage.
I agree with you, but what I had said in my original post was that reconciliation was not possible, not that it had simply failed. When there continues to be an opportunity to seek reconciliation, I do not believe remarriage is an option. I do believe however that there are circumstances where seeking reconsideration would be wrong such as when a spouse has already remarried; it is in those circumstances I believe that reconciliation is not possible.
Even if we assume that reconciliation is not possible, remarriage is not the solution. Even if the other spouse is remarried, restoration of marriage is still possible as our God can bring back the remarried spouse to his/her original spouse like the prodigal son. The prodigal son was dead but was revived. There are many instances wherein the remarried spouse after repentance came back to the original covenant spouse. The whole world will not come to an end for the aggrieved spouse after the remarriage of his/her spouse. Our God is a God of impossibility.
quote:
quote:
The word "depart" does not mean "going away" once and for all. If I am departing from my house for my office, I will come back to my house. I will not stay back in my office for ever.
The question here really is how did the original recipients of this letter understand "depart" or "a believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances", yes context is always important, but that context must include the culture and time period in which the letter was written. Most of what I have read would suggest a different understanding than what you have given. Even the conclusion of this passage makes it hard support the maybe he/she will return interpretation because Paul concludes with "Or, How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?", that doesn't seem like the kind of thing you would say to someone you were encouraging to stay and wait for the conversion and return home of their unbelieving spouse.
No doubt, during the time when Paul wrote his epistles, he did not deal with the issue of divorcee being remarried after divorce. In his epistle, he addressed to the unmarried, widows, etc. and not to divorcees. Divorce and remarriage was not an issue during the New Testament days. In the Corinthian church, he dealt with a man who lived with his father's wife. During the Acts of the apostle also, there were widows in the churches and not single parents/divorcees.
Paul was right in saying that a wife cannot save her husband. But he says that through her conduct her husband is sanctified. In India, there are a number of women who have become believers while their husbands are still Hindus. They have not divorced their husbands. They have not even thought of departing from their homes on account of their new faith. You people just pick up this single verse to prove that Paul permitted the unbelieving spouses to depart or to divorce. The same Paul has written that even if the husband and the wife can live separately for a season, both of them should rejoin and none of them should remarry. If your argument is accepted, then the believing spouses can leave their unconverted spouses and remarry other persons. First of all tell me, whether this is an act of righteousness in the sight of God? I can divorce my unconverted spouse and then marry another person!
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/19/2007 12:56:33 PM >
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http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 12:49:05 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 438
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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benelchi
quote:
I think that you will find that it is equally hard to find any scripture that explicitly calls for divorcing a spouse because the marriage is considered "illegitimate". One of the difficulties with the view that some marriages are not binding is that the few scriptures that we have that refer to a 2nd marriage (like Duet. 24), don't seem to call into question the legitimacy of those marriages. You have made an assumption that the marriage covenant is "invalid" based on the fact that it was entered into in sin, but I can not find any scripture that supports this claim. I think we all agree that divorce is wrong (sin), and it seems that everyone here would agree that a remarriage that takes place while there is still a possibility for reconciliation is sin. Where we differ is in how we view the status of a marriage that was entered into in sin, and what we believe about the status of the original marriage covenant after that sin was committed. I don't see anywhere in scripture the idea that you put forward that God only hates divorce when a 1st marriage is involved, you have to make a lot of assumption to arrive at that conclusion. I personally believe that asking someone to divorce would be not only be encouraging sin, but would also be involving me in their sin. This is the reason why I believe that a willingness to reconcile with a spouse that has remarried is wrong; when that marriage begins to have struggles (and it will), you may end up providing an easy escape and ultimately encourage a divorce that should not have happened. I think this is why there is this prohibition in Duet. 24
Even if the sin of adultery is committed after the original marriage covenant was entered, this sin can be forgiven through the Blood of Jesus Christ. You are talking about the second marriage here. The New Testament books talk about one marriage only. Even the Old Testament books, except the lone passage in the book of Duet. (which permitted divorce and remarriage in the case of Israeli people) do not talk about second marriage. If you justify 2nd marriage, why cannot be there 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th marriages? I came to know that a woman in America was divorced about 10 times and then remarried. Divorce and remarriage was made by man and not by God. Where is the justification for divorce under the Covenant of grace. It is nothing but the sin of adultery as pointed out by Jesus Christ when He conversed with the Pharisees. If there is marital discord, the spouse concerned has to seek the help of the Holy Spirit and to preserve the marriage bond. Where it is written in the Bible that she or he can divorce his/her spouse and marry another person if the reconciliation is not possible?
Please do not quote the Deut. 24 which is not applicable to us. Are we following the sundry laws and commandments given by God to the Israeli people about the food habits, dressing code, etc.? Please tell me.
_____________________________
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 1:11:41 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
I think that you will find that it is equally hard to find any scripture that explicitly calls for divorcing a spouse because the marriage is considered "illegitimate".
To be honest, there is MUCH more scripture to justify the leaving of a adulterous union/marriage than there is of leaving fornication, homosexuality, etc..........yet most in the church would have no problem at telling those engaged in that type of immorality to forsake those unions. Why then is there such a move to tell those whom Jesus says are in adultery, that they should STAY in those relationships. Again, if one is to put a vow as the be all end all, then it needs to be proven that a vow made, while not free to make it, supercedes the original vow.........the one God honors as lawfully made. And, in another vein, one would need to prove, biblically, that God joins this new "union" He calls sinful. If He doesn't join it, then the two are not ONE in marriage in God's sight.
quote:
One of the difficulties with the view that some marriages are not binding is that the few scriptures that we have that refer to a 2nd marriage (like Duet. 24), don't seem to call into question the legitimacy of those marriages. You have made an assumption that the marriage covenant is "invalid" based on the fact that it was entered into in sin, but I can not find any scripture that supports this claim.
I gave you an example: David and Michal. She married again and David took her back. Did he sin? I will give you another example: Mal. 2:14-17. AFTER the man had put away his wife and married another, who does the Lord call "the wife of the covenant"? Does God speak in the past tense or the present tense? If God accepts verbal repentance as true repentance, why does He reject the man at the altar?
In the NT, since we certainly see that there is a big diff from what is spoken in Deut. 24 regarding marriage after a divorce, can you find ANYWHERE where a second marriage(where one has a living spouse) is shown to be "blessed" and not sinful?
quote:
I think we all agree that divorce is wrong (sin), and it seems that everyone here would agree that a remarriage that takes place while there is still a possibility for reconciliation is sin. Where we differ is in how we view the status of a marriage that was entered into in sin, and what we believe about the status of the original marriage covenant after that sin was committed. I don't see anywhere in scripture the idea that you put forward that God only hates divorce when a 1st marriage is involved
No, not all of us believe ALL divorce is wrong in the sight of God. Some of us believe divorce in the case of those whom HE joined together is wrong/sin. The only passage we can find in scripture in which God says that He hates divorce is in regards to a man putting away his FIRST wife and then marries another (Mal. 2).
quote:
you have to make a lot of assumption to arrive at that conclusion.
I believe it takes much more assuming to say that the relationship God calls adultery changes into a lawful relationship when there is not 1 scripture to justify such a position, don't you?
quote:
I personally believe that asking someone to divorce would be not only be encouraging sin, but would also be involving me in their sin. This is the reason why I believe that a willingness to reconcile with a spouse that has remarried is wrong;
I hope then that you are confident to be able to share the scriptures which such people who can see scripture teaching that divorce did not nullify/dissolve their marriage in the sight of God and that He calls the second relationship, adultery. I don't think one can, in good conscience, try to point a person to Deut. 24 when that passage does NOT show adultery in the case of a remarriage.
quote:
when that marriage begins to have struggles (and it will), you may end up providing an easy escape and ultimately encourage a divorce that should not have happened. I think this is why there is this prohibition in Duet. 24
Ah, there is a problem in that regard with even using Deut. 24 because it speaks about a man putting away his wife because he "hates" her..............in such cases, it appears she can marry again. Is this the case with Jesus' teachings? Deut. 24 and Mt. 5, 19, Mk. 10, and Lk. 16 are not apples to apples. Jesus taught something VERY different than we see in Deut. 24............Jesus taught what we see in Hosea/Gomer's case......a case in which she DID return to her 1st husband.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 1:31:57 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4613
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From: California
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quote:
Well, I have to disagree with that stance because I don't believe it to be biblically based. AFTER a divorce, Jesus says that the parties commit adultery. To me, that says Jesus did NOT recognize a divorce as dissolving what HE joined together. If it is still joined then, ANY relationship entered into is adultery.........and that is exactly what He states in regards to remarriage. This is also what Paul teaches in Rom. 7:2-3 when he uses marriage in his analogy/illustration.
We both agree the Jesus teaches that divorcing a spouse and them marrying another constitutes adultery and is wrong; the question is whether that is an act that happens at a point in time, or something that continues indefinitely nullifying the vow that was taken. This is something that is not stated clearly in scripture. In the story of the woman at the well, Jesus speaks about the woman having five previous husbands before living with someone who was not her husband. Here he seems to be acknowledging the validity of the previous five vows, and I believe it would be a stretch to believe that all of the other husbands died before each remarriage took place.
quote:
First, I see no indication in this passage that the 2nd marriage was "defiled" nor do I see any indication that would suggest that the 2nd marriage covenant was invalid.
I agree with you here. There is no indication that the second marriage is viewed as invalid. Actually, quite the opposite. So, if she is not "defiled" from the second marriage, then your view that she cannot return to the 1st husband does not make sense in light of what Jesus taught in the Gospels. In Deut. 24 the divorce IS recognized as freeing the woman to be with another. In the NT, divorce is NOT recognized as freeing a woman/or man to be married again without "being defiled"(committing adultery). Deut. 24 then is NOT relevant to what Jesus taught on MDR.
If we agree that there was no defilement in the second marriage, and we agree that in the OT case the second marriage covenant was valid, there still remains the question about why there was a prohibition about remarrying the first husband. My view is because that it is because it makes it much easier to break the second vow, when the first husband is willing and maybe trying to persuade his wife to return to him.
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What in scripture leads you to believe that the second vow, made one when is NOT free to vow, is binding? Do you believe David was sinning in taking back his wife Michal from her second husband?
I think the issue is that I can find no scriptural support for an idea that a second marriage covenant is invalid, and in those instances where a second marriage is alluded to in scripture, there does not seem to be any indication that the covenant is considered invalid. What is condemned very strongly in scripture is the divorce and remarriage, but not the covenant of the marriage itself.
Yes, David was wrong i.e. sinning when he took back Michal. He was clearly under the OT Law, and clearly subject to the requirements of Duet. 24. We can debate how that pertains to us who are under the NT covenant, but there cannot really be much debate about how that scripture pertained to David. One of the things that is unique to the bible (as opposed to religious books of other faiths) is that the bible does not try to white wash the sins of its "saints". David was a man of God, but he also blew it many times (remember Bathseba?)
quote:
Personally, I would rather err on the side of NOT sinning. If scripture IS clear that marriage endures until the death of one spouse........even in the face of adultery (Rom. 7:2-3), then I would rather NOT end up committing adultery. I would rather "remain unmarried"...........and serve the Lord wholeheartedly with a clean heart and clean conscience.
Because you are advocating that a spouse who has remarried divorce so that they may be reconciled to their first husband/wife, it is not quite so simple to declare that you err on the side of not sinning. If the divorce that you are advocating is sinful because the covenant is valid then you are actually participating in sin when you advocate that someone should choose to divorce a spouse from a second marriage. I do respect that you view this second covenant as invalid, but it is the proverbial straw man to suggest that this is only erring on the side of not sinning.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 4:18:22 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
We both agree the Jesus teaches that divorcing a spouse and them marrying another constitutes adultery and is wrong; the question is whether that is an act that happens at a point in time, or something that continues indefinitely nullifying the vow that was taken. This is something that is not stated clearly in scripture. In the story of the woman at the well, Jesus speaks about the woman having five previous husbands before living with someone who was not her husband. Here he seems to be acknowledging the validity of the previous five vows, and I believe it would be a stretch to believe that all of the other husbands died before each remarriage took place.
Jesus also acknowledges that people "marry" in the Gospel teachings on marriage, divorce, remarriage..........yet what does He say? He says those who marry another commit adultery. As for the woman at the well, many try to use that event to say Jesus honored the woman's previous marriages as legitimate. There is just no evidence of this. All we do know is that she was PRESENTLY in sin. We also cannot assume that all her husbands DIDN'T die as the text does not say one way or the other. To me, this passage does not lean one way or the other for either side of this issue.
One thing to consider: if we are to assume the woman at the well's previous marriages were condoned by God and that they were "unbiblical" marriages, then we must allow for those who could use the argument that polygamy is honored by God because the women marry a man and are called husbands/wives. Is this ok with the Lord or are those relationships (the "marriages" entered into AFTER the first) adultery to the Lord?
quote:
If we agree that there was no defilement in the second marriage, and we agree that in the OT case the second marriage covenant was valid, there still remains the question about why there was a prohibition about remarrying the first husband. My view is because that it is because it makes it much easier to break the second vow, when the first husband is willing and maybe trying to persuade his wife to return to him.
Absolutely, it is "easier" to break a second vow if one's first husband is willing to reconcile..........as it should be, in my opinion, since I don't believe a second vow overrules the first one honored by God. I think though, emotionally, many will suffer. However, in the long run God will be glorified by such acts of repentance, as it is HIS will that covenant couples return to their covenant---the one HE entered into and rejoin the one He joined them to---for life.
What you said above makes no sense to me in light of what we read there in Deut. 24.........even if the second husband dies, she is prohibited to return to her first, so she would not be treating her second vow flippantly if that marriage was dissolved anyways, would she?
My view on Deut. 24 is that BECAUSE the husband put away his wife for being defiled, it was HIS PUNISHMENT to never again be able to have her. See, even if she is free from her second husband, she cannot return to him. I believe that was to discourage frivilous divorce.........to make a man KNOW, he shall NEVER, EVER have his wife back, should he chuck her away. I have read some interesting studies on this passage. It has been said that in that day, the man received quite a nice dowry from his bride's family. If a man put away his wife, he lost the dowry. Some may have been tempted to again try to regain the money that came with this wife---hence to prohibition to marry her again. I dont' know about that as it is merely speculation.
In any case, what we do know is that in the NT, adultery DOES occur with a new marriage and it doesn't appear anywhere that as long as the 1st spouse lives, the second marriage is anything but adultery.
quote:
I think the issue is that I can find no scriptural support for an idea that a second marriage covenant is invalid, and in those instances where a second marriage is alluded to in scripture, there does not seem to be any indication that the covenant is considered invalid. What is condemned very strongly in scripture is the divorce and remarriage, but not the covenant of the marriage itself.
Well, I can't convince you to take Jesus' words to heart on the nature of that remarital relationship. For me, it's pretty clear though. It is an invalid relationship in the Lord's eyes...........a sinful relationship because the Lord sees the original couple as still bound together----by Him.
quote:
Yes, David was wrong i.e. sinning when he took back Michal. He was clearly under the OT Law, and clearly subject to the requirements of Duet. 24.
David didn't divorce his wife................she actually was committing bigamy by joining herself with another husband. David took her back because she was HIS wife, irregardless that she had taken another husband. The point in bringing that situation out is this: in the OT it "appears" that divorce gave allowance for remarriage to take place..........maybe it was a form of polygamy, etc.......I don't know. All I do know is that in the NT, Jesus gives no such allowance. He clearly shows that divorce does NOT dissolve what He has joined together, hence the new relationship is adultery.
quote:
Because you are advocating that a spouse who has remarried divorce so that they may be reconciled to their first husband/wife, it is not quite so simple to declare that you err on the side of not sinning. If the divorce that you are advocating is sinful because the covenant is valid then you are actually participating in sin when you advocate that someone should choose to divorce a spouse from a second marriage. I do respect that you view this second covenant as invalid, but it is the proverbial straw man to suggest that this is only erring on the side of not sinning.
Yes, as for advocating the forsaking of an adulterous union, I will do that...........just like I will advocate a fornicating couple to end the fornication...........just like I would advocate a person who is in a homosexual relationship to forsake that relationship..........etc, etc.
You see the "covenant" of a second union as valid, thus forsaking that union is sin, but you have not provided any scripture which shows that what God declares is sin, is no longer a sinful relationship. What changes an adulterous marriage into a lawful, 2 joined into 1 union by God? In other words, at what moment, does the illicit relationship turn into a lawful one---in God's sight?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 4:33:16 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1530
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Inspired_Art
Romans 7:2 - 3 (Study Notes) Please DO read.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=ro&chapter=7#Ro7_2
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=ro&chapter=7#Ro7_3
The law of matrimony, he says, is this, that as long as the husband lives, the marriage remains binding, but if he is dead, the woman may marry again.
7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be a called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(a) That is, she will be an adulteress, by the consent and judgment of all men.
7:39 18 The wife is bound by the law(m) as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the (n) Lord.
(18) That which he spoke of a widower, he speaks now of a widow, that is, that she may marry again, but that she does it in the fear of God. And yet he does not hide the fact that if she still remains a widow, she will be free of many cares.
(m) By the law of marriage.
(n) Religiously, and in the fear of God.
Paul taught the "law" of marriage to two different churches. The "law" stated that a man/wife were joined until death and that if one joins with another before that time, they will carry the label of adulteress/adulterer---obviously because the bond is still in force until the death of a spouse.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 5:21:06 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
It seems that Jesus emphasized the man's responsibility, perhaps because men were doing the divorcing and there was the hebrew word for husband, owner that implied it was more about property.
Would you comment, Sealed, on the woman's responsibility in remaining married/not commiting adultery through marriage to another while her spouse still lives?
1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
comes to mind....
That verse says it pretty clearly. These are good as well:
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Jesus does address women's responsibility also:
Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
You are correct about Jesus emphasizing the man's responsibility primarily, which was probably because the Hebrew culture was very male dominant. As you said, one of the Hebrew terms for husband was "ba‛al" which literally meant master, lord, or owner. In the same way, in the New Testament He says that the man should be the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church. I think this is why He said that a husband could make his wife an adulteress by unjustly divorcing her, even if she had done nothing to deserve it:
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
We can set aside the debate over what "unchastity" He was referring to here because this woman was innocent of it. Jesus says that this man was making her commit adultery by divorcing her unjustly. Again this was probably because in the male dominated culture there, a woman who was thrown out of her husbands home would normally look for another man to support her. Yet Jesus still says she is guilty of adultery even though it was her husband who put her in that predicament by unjustly divorcing her. And then He went on to say that the man who married her was also now an adulterer for marrying another man's wife, even though that man had just divorced her. This illustrates how seriously God takes this issue, and that there are no exceptions to His commands.
SealedEternal
Thank you for your response. I appreciate how clearly you have presented the clear teaching of Jesus on the matter.
The Word of God is convicting and also shows a promise of God to honor and provide since He does not tempt, but desires that we obey Him in all things.
I agree. God does take this issue very seriously. He is kind to make things clear and not confusing. It is we who can add to things our own limited reasoning and so present things confusingly.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 5:46:38 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallcolors
If divorce is committed and people repent and later remarry I believe there is forgiveness for these people. What sin does the blood of Jesus not cover when someone truly repents? Please tell me?
You are right, not one of us is righteous in ourselves. WE have brokenthe commandments. You aren't suggesting that we should make provision for ourselves to continue to break commands?
The appropriation of any one sinner to the gift of forgiveness is intimately tied to repentance. That means to leave the sin.
The one-flesh that Jesus taught says let no one put asunder. There is not a clause, as you infer, "but if one does put this asunder then there is an excuse or kind of a blanket and future forgiveness that will cover all future sin"
You speak of a man doing everything that he can to save his marriage. Obviously, him divorcing and remarrying is not every thing he can do. What doesn't work this month may be a different situation next month, or next year. We are not instructed to give time limits to God that if He does not work a reconciliation, we can quit when we feel we have "done enough". God gives us the satisfaction of not able to do more when we or our spouse dies as HE says that a woman is bound to her husband as long as she lives.
God does hate divorce, He does hate what it does to families. He wants us to be like Him.
God will forgive any repentant sinner. Remaining in sin is not repentance, not at all.
If we know that one must leave the sin in all other kinds of sin, why do we deceive ourselves that the sin of remarriage-type adultery is one that keeps going on and on, and somehow, because we wish it, not because He teaches us this, we make it somehow "not sin" but we are doing the same thing? Why are you implying that others who respect His commands re: this sin are somehow minimizing Jesus' blood?
I do not see God morphing any sins into not sin, except the sins we have fully left behind in repentance and He washes clean from us. He suffered for all of our sins. But we can only have His gift when we agree with Him about what is wrong and turn from our wicked ways.
There is no forgiveness if we willingly keep sinning. It isn't God's lack of understanding, but it is our willfulness.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 6:26:58 PM
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cadz
Posts: 152
Joined: 9/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
You see the "covenant" of a second union as valid, thus forsaking that union is sin, but you have not provided any scripture which shows that what God declares is sin, is no longer a sinful relationship. What changes an adulterous marriage into a lawful, 2 joined into 1 union by God? In other words, at what moment, does the illicit relationship turn into a lawful one---in God's sight?
Cindy,
I've noticed that you have asked this question a lot throughout this whole thread. No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
Any more good stuff for my marriage divorce remarriage FAQ?
_____________________________
Cheryl
Why I repented of an adulterous remarriage &
cadz FAQ about Divorce & Remarriage
http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
Discuss Divorce & Remarriage at TALKBACK
http://talkback.spiritofhosea.com
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