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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 7:28:01 PM
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fallcolors
Posts: 8
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quote:
No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such WERE some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (KJV)
Homosexuals and fornicators are not in a covenant marriage so one can not compare them to a husband and wife.
Husbands and wives can also be forgiven if they have committed the sin of adultery just as the homosexuals and the fornicators can be forgiven. No one here can tell me what sins the blood of Jesus does not cover in true repentance? Apparently some of you here feel adultery is a unforgivable sin even when one has repented so you are making the blood of Jesus useless! Jesus came to save sinners in the world.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:16:42 PM
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cadz
Posts: 153
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallcolors
true repentance? Apparently some of you here feel adultery is a unforgivable sin even when one has repented so you are making the blood of Jesus useless! Jesus came to save sinners in the world.
And true repentence is FORSAKING the sin of adultery(having someone else's spouse.)
Remarital adultery is just as forgivable as any other sin.
Check out my FAQ on Divorce & Remarriage is Not the Unforgivable Sin
_____________________________
Cheryl
Why I repented of an adulterous remarriage &
cadz FAQ about Divorce & Remarriage
http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
Discuss Divorce & Remarriage at TALKBACK
http://talkback.spiritofhosea.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:35:49 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cadz
Cindy,
I've noticed that you have asked this question a lot throughout this whole thread. No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
Yes, you are right and that is a scary thing because it leads us down the road to, "every man does what is right in his own sight"---which is what some in this thread are saying when they cannot give a definitive answer as to when adultery becomes a lawful marriage.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:37:38 PM
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fallcolors
Posts: 8
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quote:
And true repentence is FORSAKING the sin of adultery(having someone else's spouse.)
You forsake the sin by admitting you did it and REPENT for doing it and never do it WILLINGLY again once you have learned you did sin against God. The blood of Jesus would cover this sinner if they repented just as it would cover a MURDERER. A murder is forgiven if they repent, but they cannot willingly go on murdering people from that point on! Again you are making the blood of Jesus USELESS!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:41:22 PM
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cadz
Posts: 153
Joined: 9/18/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallcolors
quote:
And true repentence is FORSAKING the sin of adultery(having someone else's spouse.)
A murder is forgiven if they repent, but they cannot willingly go on murdering people from that point on!
And you cannot WILLINGLY keep a spouse who does not belong to you after you repent. If you are commiting adultery you are with someone who is not yours.
Check out my FAQ on marriage divorce and remarriage, these topics/questions have been covered.
< Message edited by cadz -- 9/19/2007 8:48:50 PM >
_____________________________
Cheryl
Why I repented of an adulterous remarriage &
cadz FAQ about Divorce & Remarriage
http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
Discuss Divorce & Remarriage at TALKBACK
http://talkback.spiritofhosea.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 8:42:08 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallcolors
Homosexuals and fornicators are not in a covenant marriage so one can not compare them to a husband and wife. Husbands and wives can also be forgiven if they have committed the sin of adultery just as the homosexuals and the fornicators can be forgiven. No one here can tell me what sins the blood of Jesus does not cover in true repentance? Apparently some of you here feel adultery is a unforgivable sin even when one has repented so you are making the blood of Jesus useless! Jesus came to save sinners in the world.
Yes, Jesus does forgive the husband or wive who commits adultery...........when they forsake their adultery----which is the fruit of TRUE repentance. If we want to see "false" repentance we have a picture of that in Mal. 2. The Lord rejected his offerings.........and called the first wife, the wife of the covenant. Also, Jesus does not say people who remarry are in a covenant marriage, He says they are committing adultery by joining together. It can only be adultery because He views the ones in the first marriage as still bound to each other.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 9:53:37 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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From: California
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quote:
No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
Not that it hasn't already been said before in this forum, but the covenant becomes binding at the point when someone commits themselves to a marriage covenant with another (even when doing so is in sin), but it is only not sinful when their has been repentance.
In the passage in Mt. 19:3-12 Jesus references the the original plan for marriage given in Genesis that one man and one woman be married for life i.e. this is the biblical model for marriage in both the OT and the NT. In light of the original plan for marriage that can be no doubt that the polygamy practiced by Jacob, David, Solomon, etc.. was wrong i.e. sinful, and in each of these cases these men not only had multiple wives, but they also had concubines. The bible does not seem to question the validity of the covenant made with the multiple wives, but does make clear the distinction between the status of wives and concubines. Abraham even showed favor to the children from Jacobs two wives over that of his two concubines. The validity of the marriage covenant made with the second, third, etc.. wives never seems to be called into question anywhere in the bible, and seems to have been valid the moment the covenant was made, even though these vows were clearly made in sin. The absence of any scripture (OT or NT) that clearly shows that the covenant of a second is considered invalid because it was entered into in a sinful way makes it very difficult for me to make that assumption. Because there are clear references in the bible relating to the prohibition of divorce that appear to be unqualified in regards to whether the marriage is a first or second marriage, I personally could not ever recommend that someone get a divorce.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 10:50:47 PM
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fallcolors
Posts: 8
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quote:
Yes, Jesus does forgive the husband or wive who commits adultery...........when they forsake their adultery----which is the fruit of TRUE repentance.
2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2007 11:56:44 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
Not that it hasn't already been said before in this forum, but the covenant becomes binding at the point when someone commits themselves to a marriage covenant with another (even when doing so is in sin), but it is only not sinful when their has been repentance.
In the passage in Mt. 19:3-12 Jesus references the the original plan for marriage given in Genesis that one man and one woman be married for life i.e. this is the biblical model for marriage in both the OT and the NT. In light of the original plan for marriage that can be no doubt that the polygamy practiced by Jacob, David, Solomon, etc.. was wrong i.e. sinful, and in each of these cases these men not only had multiple wives, but they also had concubines. The bible does not seem to question the validity of the covenant made with the multiple wives, but does make clear the distinction between the status of wives and concubines. Abraham even showed favor to the children from Jacobs two wives over that of his two concubines. The validity of the marriage covenant made with the second, third, etc.. wives never seems to be called into question anywhere in the bible, and seems to have been valid the moment the covenant was made, even though these vows were clearly made in sin. The absence of any scripture (OT or NT) that clearly shows that the covenant of a second is considered invalid because it was entered into in a sinful way makes it very difficult for me to make that assumption. Because there are clear references in the bible relating to the prohibition of divorce that appear to be unqualified in regards to whether the marriage is a first or second marriage, I personally could not ever recommend that someone get a divorce.
Just because a marriage covenant is made between a man and a woman, that marriage does not become scriptural and lawful automatically. The makers of the covenant are important and not the covenant as such. The parties to the covenant should be qualified to enter into the contract. When a divorcee with the living spouse enters into a marriage covenant, that covenant is not valid in the eyes of God. In the case of pologamy practiced during the Old Testament days, there was a valid covenant between the man and his wives. Though God had not originally ordained the practice of polygamy, He had allowed it. But under the New Covenant, this practice is not permitted. The marriage covenant beween a man and a wife for a polygamous marriage under the Old Covenant was valid because God allowed it. God did not treat this as a sin of adultery at all. But remarriage by a divorcee with the living spouse is considered as the sin of adultery in the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not permit the Pharisees of the Old Covenant to remarry after divorce. How can we justify remarriage under the New Covenant?
If a wrong marriage covenant has been entered into by a man and a woman amounting to the aduterous relationship, the man and the woman concerned should stop living as the husband and the wife. Of course, they can live as the brother and the sister in Christ Jesus. But they have to rescind the marriage covenant which they had entered into in the eyes of the law of the land. A dear sister after coming to the knowledge of the truth discussed the matter with her remarried husband and both of them decided to rescind the marriage covenant and then obtained a formal decree of divorce from the court of law. The wrong marriage covenant made through a court of law has to be undone through the same court of law.
< Message edited by prophet_india -- 9/20/2007 1:01:37 AM >
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:08:21 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallcolors
quote:
Yes, Jesus does forgive the husband or wive who commits adultery...........when they forsake their adultery----which is the fruit of TRUE repentance.
2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Yes, if anyone is in Christ Jesus, he is a new creature. Let us now discuss as to how can we judge whether someone is in Christ Jesus or not. Of course, the first requirement is the forgiveness of the past sins of the person concerned through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Then, the person concerned has to obey God in water baptism. Do you agree with me? Then, the person concerned has to forsake the same sins committed by him/her during the previous life. There is a line of demarcation between the old life and the new life. The new life starts the moment the person is born again in the Spirit of God. If the person concerned returns to the old sinful life committing the same sins, then what happens? Of course, the person concerned can go to the Lord and ask him for forgiveness umpteen times and the Blood of Jesus Christ continues to wash the sins of that person. But if the person concerned continues to live in that sin, there will remain no more sacrifice but a fearful judgment because the person concerned has chosen to trod under foot the covenant of the grace by which he was once sanctified. Please read the book of Hebrews in this regard.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:10:11 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallcolors
2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Regeneration does not do away with family relationships............one's covenant spouse is still their covenant spouse, one's children are still their children.........if, when we come to Christ, we are in illicit relationships, our conversion does not turn those illicit relationships into lawful ones.........If we are in adulterous unions (whether extramaritally or through a remarriage) we repent when we see that sin for what it is. If we are in relationships where we are fornicating, becoming regenerated does not change the fornication into a lawful relationship, stopping the sin is evidence of true repentance.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:22:09 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
benelchi
Not that it hasn't already been said before in this forum, but the covenant becomes binding at the point when someone commits themselves to a marriage covenant with another (even when doing so is in sin), but it is only not sinful when their has been repentance.
But benelchi,
You still have not provided any scripture to prove what you say is biblical truth. Can you explain how this new covenant supercedes the previous one? Do you feel that still applies when one of the spouses' is remaining faithful to the covenant they entered into-----until death? Do you feel that the other who IS sinning has somehow punched through a sin gauntlet and now is AOK in the Lord's sight? Do you have scripture that you can share with those who are remaining faithful, believing their spouses to be in the sin of adultery due to a new marriage, scripture that will clearly show them they are free from the bond of marriage due to their husband's new vow to another woman?
quote:
The validity of the marriage covenant made with the second, third, etc.. wives never seems to be called into question anywhere in the bible, and seems to have been valid the moment the covenant was made, even though these vows were clearly made in sin. The absence of any scripture (OT or NT) that clearly shows that the covenant of a second is considered invalid because it was entered into in a sinful way makes it very difficult for me to make that assumption. Because there are clear references in the bible relating to the prohibition of divorce that appear to be unqualified in regards to whether the marriage is a first or second marriage, I personally could not ever recommend that someone get a divorce.
The problem you are facing is that you cannot explain how the first covenant is dissolved. It is VERY clear that Jesus does not recognize divorce as dissolving the first covenant. That means the first spouse is STILL the spouse when a remarriage takes place----that is why Jesus calls it adultery. You bring in OT examples. Let's look at those. In the ones you brought forth, did the first wives cease being a wife when more wives were brought in? No. As a matter of fact, God seems to place MORE value in the marriage on the FIRST wife.
In any case, we are not speaking of polygamy.........we are speaking of a second marriage after a divorce. You seem to think a new vow supercedes the original vow, but Jesus says the very opposite of that----He says those who enter into this new marriage are committing adultery. You can't be married to a person lawfully AND committing adultery with that person at the same time. Impossible.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 3:53:02 AM
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feetareshod
Posts: 5
Joined: 6/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cadz
Cindy,
I've noticed that you have asked this question a lot throughout this whole thread. No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
Any more good stuff for my marriage divorce remarriage FAQ?
a sinful relationship only becomes sin free when it is abandoned.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 6:36:46 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2539
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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I find it intriquing that the story of marriage-death-and remarriage that Jesus gave was to illustrate our relationship with rules and regulations.
The first husband was Rules and Regs. We found it impossible to please him. He died. Jesus then brought grace. The old husband, Rules, is dead so that we cannot go back to him even if we wanted to.
So what are so many doing here? IMHO, they are trying to keep us tied to the old husband Rules and Regs while claiming to be brides of Christ.
1 Corinthians 10: 23-24. everything is lawful but not everything is beneficial.
Of course, God/ Jesus wants us to use the wisdom and leading of the Holy Spirit to find the right mate and live with grace until death do you part. Or have the parents use wisdom and grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit to arrange such a union.
When Jesus was talking to his disciples and they balked at the idea that this is the attitude you should have, he was a bit tongue in cheek when he proclaimed, " then you shouldn't get married". Just like when we say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".
<<< my two cents have been added. Returning to lurker mode >>>
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 7:35:08 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
I find it intriquing that the story of marriage-death-and remarriage that Jesus gave was to illustrate our relationship with rules and regulations.
The first husband was Rules and Regs. We found it impossible to please him. He died. Jesus then brought grace. The old husband, Rules, is dead so that we cannot go back to him even if we wanted to.
So what are so many doing here? IMHO, they are trying to keep us tied to the old husband Rules and Regs while claiming to be brides of Christ.
1 Corinthians 10: 23-24. everything is lawful but not everything is beneficial.
Of course, God/ Jesus wants us to use the wisdom and leading of the Holy Spirit to find the right mate and live with grace until death do you part. Or have the parents use wisdom and grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit to arrange such a union.
When Jesus was talking to his disciples and they balked at the idea that this is the attitude you should have, he was a bit tongue in cheek when he proclaimed, " then you shouldn't get married". Just like when we say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".
<<< my two cents have been added. Returning to lurker mode >>>
I understand where you are coming from Car2ner. However, my take on the "rules" thing is that those who are looking for and trying to justify remarriage are actually like the Pharisee, the religious of the day. God had "rules", which we know as God's LAWS, and they tried to get around those laws-------tried to take license where there was no license given(hence them putting away their wives for ANY cause)...........and as can be seen in this discussion, the same things are being done.
For those who truly believe God allows a remarriage in the case of adultery (believing remarriage includes that), do you honestly believe Jesus was giving permission for what we are seeing today???
As for "rules", the truth is, God has LAWS which are in effect whether we follow them or not, whether we like them or not. Does God want us to follow the "rules"? Yes, but more importantly, He wants us to have the right hearts so we understand the "rules" from His perspective and follow them out of love for HIM and others. Jesus did not come, give His life, be resurrected, so that we can continue to ignore His rules and say His "blood covers all".........He came to free us from the bondage of sin(including adultery).............to give us power to follow God how God wants to be followed.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 10:56:02 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
You still have not provided any scripture to prove what you say is biblical truth.
This is simply a false statement, I have provided many scriptural references throughout this discussion. You may choose not to interpret those scriptures as I do, but it simply not true to say that I did not provide any references.
quote:
The problem you are facing is that you cannot explain how the first covenant is dissolved. It is VERY clear that Jesus does not recognize divorce as dissolving the first covenant. That means the first spouse is STILL the spouse when a remarriage takes place
I did explain how I believe the covenant is dissolved; as I have stated I believe that a second marriage covenant is valid even if it began in sin i.e. adultery. The details and scripture references I have already given in previous posts. Again I accept your right not to accept my explanation, but it is untrue to say that I did not give an explanation.
quote:
In any case, we are not speaking of polygamy.
The point of showing the examples of polygamous relationships in the bible, was to show examples of marriages that began in sin, but in which the bible does not seem to question the validity of the marriage covenant. What you have not provided is an example where the bible makes clear that the covenant of a second marriage is invalid because it began in sin.
Additionally, in the passage in Mt. 19 where Jesus state a clear exception i.e. marital unfaithfulness in regards to remarriage, you have simply ignored it.
Like you I too believe that the Christian community has failed tragically in the area of divorce and remarriage, and really do appreciate much of the stand that you have taken, but I am troubled by the advocation of divorce in second marriages. I believe all divorce is wrong, and I believe that advocating another divorce will only further damage the Christian community.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 11:35:33 AM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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prophet_india,
Quick scenario/question for you.
Let us say a man divorces his wife and marries another but they are never sexually active. Health reasons does not permit this. Would you say this couple has still committed adultery? If so, how since they've never been physically intimate?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 11:40:29 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 917
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Additionally, in the passage in Mt. 19 where Jesus state a clear exception i.e. marital unfaithfulness in regards to remarriage, you have simply ignored it.
and that's the point.... They want to say that ALL marriage after divorce is adultery... but that is not the case.
_____________________________
It not that I don't think that the health care system needs reformation, but with the Gov't's track record, I fear that it will be like trying to sculpt a statute of my great-grandmother by using a shotgun.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:09:01 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
prophet_india,
Quick scenario/question for you.
Let us say a man divorces his wife and marries another but they are never sexually active. Health reasons does not permit this. Would you say this couple has still committed adultery? If so, how since they've never been physically intimate?
It is not the mere sex that matters here. It is the adulterous relationship by way of remarriage that matters here. Today health reasons do not permit them to have sex. But before the health reasons could permit sex, they had sex. After their remarriage, they had sex. Only during the period of sickness, they do not have sex. If they have repented of this sinful relationship and then decided not to have sex, then they would not be committing the sin of adultery. Both of them have already become one flesh through their sexual union. They are in this adulterous relationship.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:14:56 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
prophet_india,
Quick scenario/question for you.
Let us say a man divorces his wife and marries another but they are never sexually active. Health reasons does not permit this. Would you say this couple has still committed adultery? If so, how since they've never been physically intimate?
Adultery, in the bible, is more an issue with the heart than it is a physical act. In Mt. 19 Jesus states that when a person divorces and remarries without sexual infidelity being involved he is guilty of adultery. In Mt. 5:27-30 Jesus equates someone who lusts as being guilty of adultery. In both of these cases the physical act of sex was not involved, but both are called adultery.
I do accept the exclusion of adultery that Jesus gave in Mt. 19 as a valid reason for the ending of a marriage covenant, and so I don't agree with those in this forum that believe every act of remarriage is adulterous and call for the divorce of second marriages; however, I do believe that divorce and remarriage is a very serious problem within the Christian community; we as God's people are clearly failing in this area. When the statistics show, as they do in the USA, that those who state that they are Christians actually divorce at a higher rate than those who declare that they are not, it is clear that something is seriously wrong with they way we as Christians are handling this issue.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:26:10 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
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From: India
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quote:
The point of showing the examples of polygamous relationships in the bible, was to show examples of marriages that began in sin, but in which the bible does not seem to question the validity of the marriage covenant. What you have not provided is an example where the bible makes clear that the covenant of a second marriage is invalid because it began in sin.
Additionally, in the passage in Mt. 19 where Jesus state a clear exception i.e. marital unfaithfulness in regards to remarriage, you have simply ignored it.
Like you I too believe that the Christian community has failed tragically in the area of divorce and remarriage, and really do appreciate much of the stand that you have taken, but I am troubled by the advocation of divorce in second marriages. I believe all divorce is wrong, and I believe that advocating another divorce will only further damage the Christian community.
hi benelchi,
How do you say that the polygamous relationship began in sin? Please quote the Scriptures here. Please do not run away from this point. I will come back and discuss.
Jesus did not use the words ''marital unfaithfulness''. He used the word ''adultery''. Today, almost many of the spouses have fallen into the category of marital unfaithfulness. Do you mean to say that all these spouses are liable to be divorced?
The socalled divorce in second marriage is required to undo the wrong remarriage. It is restoration from sin. It is a journey from sin to righteousness. This another divorce will not cause any damage to the Christian community but, instead, will exalt the Christian community in the eyes of this world. The worldly people will be shaken on knowing about the Christians abiding in the truth. Of course, it will be a painful experience for the remarried couple. But their sorrow will turn into joy. There will be joy in heaven when one soul is saved from the sin. If a wrong marriage is made, then the remedy is to undo it.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:37:52 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
prophet_india,
Quick scenario/question for you.
Let us say a man divorces his wife and marries another but they are never sexually active. Health reasons does not permit this. Would you say this couple has still committed adultery? If so, how since they've never been physically intimate?
Adultery, in the bible, is more an issue with the heart than it is a physical act. In Mt. 19 Jesus states that when a person divorces and remarries without sexual infidelity being involved he is guilty of adultery. In Mt. 5:27-30 Jesus equates someone who lusts as being guilty of adultery. In both of these cases the physical act of sex was not involved, but both are called adultery.
I do accept the exclusion of adultery that Jesus gave in Mt. 19 as a valid reason for the ending of a marriage covenant, and so I don't agree with those in this forum that believe every act of remarriage is adulterous and call for the divorce of second marriages; however, I do believe that divorce and remarriage is a very serious problem within the Christian community; we as God's people are clearly failing in this area. When the statistics show, as they do in the USA, that those who state that they are Christians actually divorce at a higher rate than those who declare that they are not, it is clear that something is seriously wrong with they way we as Christians are handling this issue.
Jesus did say that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart, he has already committed the act of adultery in his heart. This means that the man concerned has committed this sin in his heart and not in his body. If this man then commits an act of adultery with another man's wife physically, he will commit this sin again his body and against God. You cannot equate both these acts i.e. the act being committed in the faculty of mind and the act being committed in the body. If you treat both these acts at par, then a husband who lusts after another woman in his heart is liable to be divorced. If you are very sincere about putting an end to this abominable act of divorce, then you have to take the bold stand of resisting the move for remarriage. If you justify remarriage after divorce, then you are supporting this monster of divorce. If you allow a remarriage as a special case, then every person will cite his/her own case as a special case to justify divorce and remarriage.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:37:59 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
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Hello prophet_india  ,
quote:
There are many people who had married prostitutes and rehabilitated them by showing compassion on them. God loves prostitutes also because Jesus died for them also on the Cross. A prostitute can be married and rehabilitated.
I will simply ask you. If you heard a voice telling you to marry that prostitute you saw on the street the other day (your single), wouldn't you begin to question that voice and whether it was really God or not?
quote:
God never asked any old testament saint to marry a divorcee. The exception was given to the men of Israel to marry women divorced by their first husbands due to some uncleaness. God did not instruct the men of Israel to marry divorced women. That was a choice they made. God never instructed an OT saint to marry a divorcee - quite true. However, God only instructed the priests not to marry a divorced woman (Leviticus 21:6-7; Ezekiel 44:22). This was not the instruction to the common Israelite man. Do you agree with this?
Note - In case some would try to make an issue and say, "see, a priests couldn't marry a divorcee". Please take note that the priest/Levite couldn't marry a widow either, which we do not disallow today. The point being that we shouldn't ascribe some uncleanness to the divorcee without knowing the grounds which we are not told.
quote:
Please note that when a man marries a prostitute, the latter becomes his wife. She is no longer a prostitute at all. A prostitute is one who is not married to any man.
This is not the biblical definition of a prostitute.
Porne - (1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses; (2)a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain; (3) any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust; (4) metaph. an idolatress; of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry.
Marriage was not an issue here. Her activity was what defined her as a prostitute or not. She may have been married and still been a temple prostitute for example, which means she was committing adultery also but that doesn't change the fact that she was considered a prostitute. Do you agree?
quote:
How can you say that Hosea had absolutely no expectation that this woman would be true to the vow of sexual faithfuless? On what basis, you stated like this? Just a little common sense. It the same thing when we advise folk on the forum. If you marry a man who was a drug addict for example, that walk down the aisle is not going to change it. Since you knew he was, it is foolish to expect him to change after your married. We see this happening enough to know it's not wise and I don't see Hosea as being anything other than a man who experiences the same emotions and thoughts. Does that make sense?
quote:
Why do you expect God not to give us an express word to marry a prostitute? A prostitute can be forgiven and restored. Any man can marry a prostitute to transform her pitiable life. Would you advise this to any brother in your congregation who told you the Lord has instructed him to marry a prostitute? If you follow this train of thought, then I suppose you don't have a problem with a believer marrying an unbeliever in the hopes of transforming his/her life?
quote:
Can you show me the particular verse from the book of Hosiah to prove that Gomer deserved divorce on the ground that she had committed adultery after marriage?
We both agreed in previous post that a man could divorce his wife on the grounds of sexual unfaithfulness during betrothal or after consummation. Therefore, there does not need to be a Scripture in Hosea making this point because it was in the law. He could have lawfully divorced her. Isn't that true?
quote:
Can you prove that Gomer had committed whoredom after her marriage to Hosea?
Hosea 1:3
So Hosea married Gomer, daughter of Diblaim. She became pregnant and had a son.
Hosea 3:2
So I brought her for 23 ounces of silver and 10 bushels of barley.
This tell me they married and then she went out and had to be purchased back. If this is to be seen as the relationship between God and His people, then it would be clear Hosea was married first, just as God entered into a covenant with His people (Mt. Sinai) and then Gomer committed adultery, just as God accused His people of doing after they had entered into a marriage covenant with Him. I'm not 100% sure if these children were Hosea's or someone else's since God says to name them "Unloved" and "Not My People". This suggest to me that these were the children of adultery. At any rate, it seems to be that she continued in her prostitution after their marriage and needed to be redeemed (bought back). Do you agree with this?
quote:
Though the Lord gave Israel the certificate of divorce, yet the Lord had not divorced her but forgave and restored her. After sending her away, the Lord restored her also...We cannot justify divorce under the Covenant of grace at all cost because God had not divorced His bride Israel under the Old Covenant.
In a previous post I addressed the issue of God divorcing Israel as a whole but will choose individuals to come into Christ. In that sense He will be restored to Israel (the individual but not the nation) Here Jeremiah 3:8, 14. Do you believe the whole nation of Israel will be restored to God and not the Remnant (just curious on this one)?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2007 12:42:47 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: feetareshod
quote:
ORIGINAL: cadz
Cindy,
I've noticed that you have asked this question a lot throughout this whole thread. No one has yet been able to say exactly when a relationship God calls sin, turns into one that is not sin.
Any more good stuff for my marriage divorce remarriage FAQ?
a sinful relationship only becomes sin free when it is abandoned.
It is abandoned by way of a formal divorce because this unscriptural marriage was entered through a court of law. Through the same court of law, this has to be nullified. Mere repentance is not enough. We have to work out our salvation with all the fear.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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