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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2008 10:58:52 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
No, the Law never said that. If he hadn't accused her of fornication on that night then he would have been bound to her legally for life and couldn't divorce her all his days either. Scripture (Torah, 5 books of Moses) please.
Genesis 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." 24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days. "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
Even under the Old Covenant it says that God joins the two together for as long as both shall live, and if a man "divorced" his wife she was still regarded as his wife by covenant. It also says that if she wasn't proven to have committed fornication at the end of the betrothal, then he could not divorce her all his days. Jesus of course confirmed that this was in fact what the Law was in Matthew, and added that if a man divorced for any other reason, that he was making her commit adultery as well as committing it himself by remarrying, and that if a man married the divorced woman that that man was himself committing adultery as well. Therefore it is absolutely clear that any divorce outside of a woman divorced for lack of virginity at the end of the betrothal was not recognized by God, and led to adultery to everyone involved who went on to join to another, because she was still regarded as his one flesh wife by covenant, joined by God for life.
The New Testament absolutely hammers this point home lest their be any confusion:
Ephesians 5:28-33 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that EVERYONE who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
1 Corinthians 7: 10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
This fact is absolutely clear from Genesis through the New Testament and has never changed, with the exception in the Law of Moses for a specific cause that occured prior to the marriage, which has nothing to do with "divorce" as it is practiced today.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2008 8:43:23 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
Divorce was allowed for reasons of sexual immorality.
I thought Jesus said not to cast stones...using the very example of an adulteress.
And not to seek revenge, to turn the other cheek. To give grace/mercy, love and forgive as many times as we have to...
Wouldn't that cause Him to contradict Himself and His very nature that we are to reflect?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2008 8:53:15 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2228
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Context Context Context.
"Is it lawful to divorce a wife FOR ANY REASON?" What is the context of "for any reason?"
This was at the end of the betrothal period when the man took His wife and took dominion of her from her parents. It was at that time that she was found sexually unclean and he could decide to divorce her. If she wasn't guilty at that point however, the Law said that she was to remain his wife for as long as they both lived:
Deuteronomy 22:16-19 "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
That is the full context of this passage.
SealedEternal
Greetngs
quote:
That is the full context of this passage.
What is? .LOL!
And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days
???
The point in that passage is that they were already married, the women had no repercussion to begin against the accusation that the man made against her but to prove her virginity,
Therefore, she shall remain his “wife”; = in the object of the provision allotted to a wife by a husband under the covenant.
Women were not given the right of divorce under the Law,
The stipulation was that the man “cannot” divorce her all his days… because “he” publicly defamed a virgin of Israel.
quote:
That is the full context of this passage.
This passage takes away all rights from that man given under the Law of Moses concerning divorce according to the commandment 16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
The crime fits the punishment; or an eye for an eye,
Therefore, the man who sought to be free by false accusation would bear that false accusation for the rest of his life, and that price was…. he cannot divorce “her” and must provide for her all his days
quote:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that EVERYONE who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Paul reiterates this passage also to the married in…
1Co 7:27 - Show Context
Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed.
Because …..The only way to “seek” to be loosed; is to create “false” accusation. (any reason)
However…on the other hand one is not seeking to be loosed when the other is committing SI, because they have a “valid accusation”
31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality F22 causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
This passage is the same today as it was yesterday and tomorrow…if the women was divorced for any reason, then Jesus said that any reason “is not a reason”… therefore it “causes” that women to commit adultery “when” she marries, and in like manner… the one who marries her.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2008 2:52:47 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Divorce was allowed for reasons of sexual immorality.
I thought Jesus said not to cast stones...using the very example of an adulteress.
And not to seek revenge, to turn the other cheek. To give grace/mercy, love and forgive as many times as we have to...
Wouldn't that cause Him to contradict Himself and His very nature that we are to reflect?
You are right, keepingfaith, He did. We are to be like Him....
We are not called to bring our mates consequences but to allow God to do His work, while remaining faithful to Him ourselves. When we put ourselves up at the judge, jury and jailer, we error and take on a role that is not ours.
A sinning spouse needs our prayers!
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2008 3:20:01 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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the motivation of our hearts.......
When an atheist mocks and ridicules a christian leader (have seen this on Larry King live, for example) because he has heard that this leader believes the literalness of Scripture that those who do not obey, nor honor Christ as Lord and Redeemer, are destined to hell, what should that leader say to that sneering accusation?
Calmly, and with respect, that leader can say, "the problem you have sir, is the same that we are all born into....that is...the sin problem. We all have to face it. It affects us all, no matter how "good" we are. So God moved towards us to take on sin Himself, and make a way, through His suffering, for us to have reconciliation with God"
And when the atheist sneers, "So God wants me to burn in hell for eternity, and you want me to BELIEVE that God is love???"
And the leader can say, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 timothy 2:4), and because this is His desire and attitude, I too want all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".
His motive is everything.
He could emphasize the wish for the atheist to burn (and all atheists) as he thinks they should. He could emphasize his desire for that one's punishment. You know, that IS what the world thinks that ALL christians believe...that we desire others to suffer hell...and this is because they do not know nor understand the truth about God.
This relates to praying for a sinning mate, or sister or brother. If one is caught up in sin, what should our attitude be? "Divorce them!" "Let 'em burn in hell!' "They made their bed, now they can lie in it!"
Or, like the Father of lights, shall we have an attitude that says we want all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (walking with God in agreement with what He has revealed in Christ)?
Shall we "stand in the gap" for those who have become deceived through sin? Or shall we say, "let 'em burn. Serves 'em right! They deserve all they might suffer. In fact, lets bring further suffering (divorce, remarriage) upon them since they hurt us" ?
That is just one of the many reasons I think that divorce is wrong. It goes against the very motivations of God. If He wants all men to be saved, shouldn't we too?
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2008 4:35:52 PM
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Favored4Life
Posts: 43
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: The Land of Snow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
quote:
Shall we "stand in the gap" for those who have become deceived through sin? Or shall we say, "let 'em burn. Serves 'em right! They deserve all they might suffer. In fact, lets bring further suffering (divorce, remarriage) upon them since they hurt us" ?
That is just one of the many reasons I think that divorce is wrong. It goes against the very motivations of God. If He wants all men to be saved, shouldn't we too?
I am of the belief that God should come first in ones life. And too often one spouse wants to "save" the other from themselves and does want to stand in the gap for a spouse steeped in sin. But I do believe that at some point the spouse (not in sin) can become a crutch for the other and literally be in the middle of that spouse and God. There are times in our lives that God just needs to deal with us one on one Father to child.
We can't save someone, regardless of how much we love them, from the consequences of their actions. God is love, He is merciful and fair, but he is also just.
Marriage is to be honored, respected and cherished. But so are our lives, hanging on to a spouse who wants more to do with the world than God is physically, emotionally and can be spiritually draining and can eat away years of a life that could have been better used. I know that my God wants his children whole and healthy in all areas of their lives.
I don't believe that any parts of the Bible can be discounted simply to suit our purposes. We must take God's word as a whole..................all of it! Not just excerpts of Luke and Mark, forgetting about Matthew or vice versa. it all serves a purpose.
And who says that to be apart from someone means you have to be bitter and stop praying for their souls? Who says that you stop interceding? Simply because you function more effectively away from someone than with them?
_____________________________
In Jesus I Trust!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2008 6:06:21 PM
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blessednw
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Favored4Life
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
quote:
Shall we "stand in the gap" for those who have become deceived through sin? Or shall we say, "let 'em burn. Serves 'em right! They deserve all they might suffer. In fact, lets bring further suffering (divorce, remarriage) upon them since they hurt us" ?
That is just one of the many reasons I think that divorce is wrong. It goes against the very motivations of God. If He wants all men to be saved, shouldn't we too?
We can't save someone, regardless of how much we love them, from the consequences of their actions. God is love, He is merciful and fair, but he is also just.
And who says that to be apart from someone means you have to be bitter and stop praying for their souls? Who says that you stop interceding?
I am in agreement with you. Bitterness is not recommended.
I have seen a fair share of bitterness, though, as I mentioned in my post. There has been, unfortunately, very little faith for situations in prodigals' hearts to change. It has hit families hard, both in marriage and parenting.
I think there is a strong case for spouses and parents to see their prayers as part of their calling from God when their loved ones are in rebellion to the Lord.
As I mentioned, I have seen a real attitude of, "let the sinner rot in hell, he or she deserves it" . I had this thought a while ago about someone, and I was immediately convicted. It always brings us back to our own need for mercy.... because none of us deserves mercy or forgiveness.
I advocate standing in the gap, not standing in the way! Lol!
God's circumstances for seeds sown are in place.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
I am talking about prayer that brings repentance, and exposes the enemy's stronghold in the minds of the hard hearted people in our lives. How can they repent when they don't see the lies they believe?
Where would any sinner be without the mercy of God opening their eyes to the need for the Savior? We who walk in this gift did not deserve it, just as the ones we pray for do not deserve mercy, or forgiveness. May God open eyes and convict hearts.
I post in favor of praying for hardened loved ones. I am so glad someone prayed for me when I was darkened in my understanding of God. I was literally reaping destruction then.
I see praying for hardhearted loved ones as invigorating, not draining, not in any way. Prayer is a privilege and honor, and was used in bringing me to salvation.
I love that the Father wants all men to be saved. This truth informs my prayer.
_____________________________
This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2008 9:08:03 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
I am of the belief that God should come first in ones life. And too often one spouse wants to "save" the other from themselves and does want to stand in the gap for a spouse steeped in sin. But I do believe that at some point the spouse (not in sin) can become a crutch for the other and literally be in the middle of that spouse and God. There are times in our lives that God just needs to deal with us one on one Father to child.
We can't save someone, regardless of how much we love them, from the consequences of their actions. God is love, He is merciful and fair, but he is also just.
Marriage is to be honored, respected and cherished. But so are our lives, hanging on to a spouse who wants more to do with the world than God is physically, emotionally and can be spiritually draining and can eat away years of a life that could have been better used. I know that my God wants his children whole and healthy in all areas of their lives.
I don't believe that any parts of the Bible can be discounted simply to suit our purposes. We must take God's word as a whole..................all of it! Not just excerpts of Luke and Mark, forgetting about Matthew or vice versa. it all serves a purpose.
And who says that to be apart from someone means you have to be bitter and stop praying for their souls? Who says that you stop interceding? Simply because you function more effectively away from someone than with them?
Thanks for posting!
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2008 11:49:11 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Favored4Life
And who says that to be apart from someone means you have to be bitter and stop praying for their souls? Who says that you stop interceding? Simply because you function more effectively away from someone than with them?
I believe when one is "remaining unmarried" (I Cor. 7:10-11), they SHOULD be using that time to intercede for their wayward spouse.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 12:03:48 AM
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Favored4Life
Posts: 43
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: The Land of Snow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Favored4Life
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessednw
quote:
Shall we "stand in the gap" for those who have become deceived through sin? Or shall we say, "let 'em burn. Serves 'em right! They deserve all they might suffer. In fact, lets bring further suffering (divorce, remarriage) upon them since they hurt us" ?
That is just one of the many reasons I think that divorce is wrong. It goes against the very motivations of God. If He wants all men to be saved, shouldn't we too?
We can't save someone, regardless of how much we love them, from the consequences of their actions. God is love, He is merciful and fair, but he is also just.
And who says that to be apart from someone means you have to be bitter and stop praying for their souls? Who says that you stop interceding?
I am in agreement with you. Bitterness is not recommended.
I have seen a fair share of bitterness, though, as I mentioned in my post. There has been, unfortunately, very little faith for situations in prodigals' hearts to change. It has hit families hard, both in marriage and parenting.
I think there is a strong case for spouses and parents to see their prayers as part of their calling from God when their loved ones are in rebellion to the Lord.
As I mentioned, I have seen a real attitude of, "let the sinner rot in hell, he or she deserves it" . I had this thought a while ago about someone, and I was immediately convicted. It always brings us back to our own need for mercy.... because none of us deserves mercy or forgiveness.
I advocate standing in the gap, not standing in the way! Lol!
God's circumstances for seeds sown are in place.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
I am talking about prayer that brings repentance, and exposes the enemy's stronghold in the minds of the hard hearted people in our lives. How can they repent when they don't see the lies they believe?
Where would any sinner be without the mercy of God opening their eyes to the need for the Savior? We who walk in this gift did not deserve it, just as the ones we pray for do not deserve mercy, or forgiveness. May God open eyes and convict hearts.
I post in favor of praying for hardened loved ones. I am so glad someone prayed for me when I was darkened in my understanding of God. I was literally reaping destruction then.
I see praying for hardhearted loved ones as invigorating, not draining, not in any way. Prayer is a privilege and honor, and was used in bringing me to salvation.
I love that the Father wants all men to be saved. This truth informs my prayer.
It's not praying for someone that is draining, having our prayers heard is a priviledge as well as our responsibility. But dealing with someone else's choice to be in a lifestyle of sin is extremely draining, especially when there are children involved. Marriage is meant to be the foundation of a family, and Christ the foundation of the marriage. When the foundation is strong you can build upon it. Which would be the raising of God fearing children who are healthy physically, emotionally and spiritually.
When the foundation is weak because of a spouses choice to not aid in the strengthening of that foundation things get out of order..............it's no longer God first, spouse second and children third, not when the time and effort spent on a spouse cemented in sin hurts the very children who should be guided and swathed in security by that order.
There is a point when children must come 2nd after God. They didn't ask to be born, didn't ask to have a parent who has taken themselves out of order. They need at least one parent whose eyes are focused on them rather than the world or their own wants.
I'm not taking this off topic, but in my decision to divorce my husband on grounds of unrepentant adultery, the question I asked myself was. "Would I rather be married but in effect have no spouse, or would I rather be single for the rest of my life, if that be God's will?" I choose the latter. I would much rather have my children raised in a secure home with an example of being single and living godly than to have them live in a household with two different examples, having them growing up thinking that they have a choice as to which road to follow.
Having an attitude of unforgiveness is not Christ-like. Wishing someone would not enter into the family of God is not Christ-like. I thank God that I have not encountered any of the attitudes you speak of Blessednw.
_____________________________
In Jesus I Trust!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 9:14:00 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
Shall we "stand in the gap" for those who have become deceived through sin? Or shall we say, "let 'em burn. Serves 'em right! They deserve all they might suffer. In fact, lets bring further suffering (divorce, remarriage) upon them since they hurt us" ?
Like Favored4Life, I have never run across this attitude among Christians. Neither have I seen Christians who engage in serial divorce and remarriage. Rather, I have seen and experienced men and women pray for decades for their marriages and their spouses. When those faithful ones are then abandoned and subsequently divorced, they do not cease praying for the ex-spouse, especially if there are children involved. I think it's kind of strange that the innocent and abandoned spouse is continually portrayed in this thread as disobedient, hardhearted, sinful and going against the motivation of God. When in truth, the abandoned man or woman continues to be faithful to God, continues to pray for the parent of their children, continues to live sacrificially for the good of those children and to be a living testimony to the forgiveness God calls them to.
As to the reconciliation issue ~ hypothetically, if a person commits adultery, abandons their spouse, divorces and then goes on to become involved with multiple other partners, the ex-spouse would have to be an idiot to reconcile and be exposed to whatever STDs the unfaithful one has come into contact with.
Do remarriage=adultery proponents believe that reconciliation is optional or is it mandated according to your interpretation? How would this scenario play out in real life? Would reconciliation be dependent upon medical testing and a clean bill of health? Would the innocent one be accused of hardheartedness and sin if he/she refused reconciliation without it?
When you think about real life, it's ridiculous. The innocent one continues to be punished through no fault of his/her own. It is extreme man-made legalism.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 10:49:25 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
Do remarriage=adultery proponents believe that reconciliation is optional or is it mandated according to your interpretation? How would this scenario play out in real life? Would reconciliation be dependent upon medical testing and a clean bill of health? Would the innocent one be accused of hardheartedness and sin if he/she refused reconciliation without it?
I don't advocate being with someone who does not have a clean bill of health. I believe it is God's will to heal and restore all marriages and His will is one marriage for life. I believe we should always seek and desire to do His will.
I don't believe reconciliation is required, but the only other option I see in scripture is to remain unmarried. In cases where the wayward spouse is repentant and walking with the Lord- I believe the goal should be reconciliation. His word is clear that if someone is repentant we are commanded to forgive them. When we realize that our wayward spouse is not the enemy- Satan is...that is easier to accept.
Reconciliation is always God's heart and it's the heart of the Bible. We can know that is always His will...
I don't see it as punishment to remain faithful and follow the Lord's commands. He says His commands are not burdensome if we love Him. There are trials in our lives for a reason and He always has a purpose and a plan and we can count on the promises of Jer 29:11 even when we can't see them.
I also think many of the trials in our lives are to test our obedience to Him... are we really willing to take up our cross? It's much easier to say, surely God doesn't expect me to do this... I thought that for a second before I remembered the sacrifice Jesus made for me.
Satan is the only one who wins when another family is destroyed. Which would bring more glory to God? Which is the greater testimony...
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 2/3/2008 11:01:58 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 11:01:57 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
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quote:
I don't believe reconciliation is required, but the only other option I see in scripture is to remain unmarried. In cases where the wayward spouse is repentant and walking with the Lord- I believe the goal should be reconciliation. His word is clear that if someone is repentant we are commanded to forgive them.
So, is it commanded that, if the wayward spouse is repentant, there must be reconciliation?
Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought it was clear that we are to forgive whether someone is repentant or not.
I don't believe forgiveness and reconciliation are the same thing. They often go hand in hand but are not synonymous.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 11:49:58 AM
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SealedEternal
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Matthew 19:10-12 The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
We can always come up with an infinite number of excuses why we shouldn't follow His commandments and we can always find someone else to blame for why we shouldn't have to, rather than just submitting to Him and saying "Yes Lord, your will not mine." Those to whom it has been given will accept His Word as Law because we hear His voice and follow Him, and we do the will of His Father who is in Heaven rather than looking for excuses not to.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 12:15:09 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
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quote:
We can always come up with an infinite number of excuses why we shouldn't follow His commandments and we can always find someone else to blame for why we shouldn't have to, rather than just submitting to Him and saying "Yes Lord, your will not mine." Those to whom it has been given will accept His Word as Law because we hear His voice and follow Him, and we do the will of His Father who is in Heaven rather than looking for excuses not to.
If this is in response to me and my questions, Sealed, you are quite mistaken. I have no need of an excuse for anything. I was just wondering how you would counsel someone whose spouse had deserted them, divorced them and been with many partners since then. Do you insist that, if the wayward spouse desires it, reconciliation is required?
< Message edited by CoeurdeLeon -- 2/3/2008 12:21:14 PM >
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 12:56:14 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
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quote:
I think it's kind of strange that the innocent and abandoned spouse is continually portrayed in this thread as disobedient, hardhearted, sinful and going against the motivation of God. When in truth, the abandoned man or woman continues to be faithful to God, continues to pray for the parent of their children, continues to live sacrificially for the good of those children and to be a living testimony to the forgiveness God calls them to.
Cour,
That is just not true. The only "innocent/abondonded" ones that anyone could consider unfaithful to the Lord are those who disobey the Lord once they are abandoned. If they walk in love/forgiveness towards their erring spouse, teach their children about God's kind of love, longsuffering, and faithfulness----exhibiting such to their children, how could anyone say this person is disobedient?
quote:
As to the reconciliation issue ~ hypothetically, if a person commits adultery, abandons their spouse, divorces and then goes on to become involved with multiple other partners, the ex-spouse would have to be an idiot to reconcile and be exposed to whatever STDs the unfaithful one has come into contact with.
An idiot? Now who is making judgments that cannot be supported by God's Word? Is God not a restoring God? Is God not able to cleanse that which is "dirty" and bring renewal?
quote:
Do remarriage=adultery proponents believe that reconciliation is optional or is it mandated according to your interpretation? How would this scenario play out in real life? Would reconciliation be dependent upon medical testing and a clean bill of health? Would the innocent one be accused of hardheartedness and sin if he/she refused reconciliation without it?
Reconciliation is ALWAYS the Lord's will. If reconciliation does not occur, it is due to hardness of heart on one or both person's part. If one has a disease that is incurable (and really, is there such a thing with the Lord????), then that is a whole separate issue apart from reconciliation. There are many couples who reconcile their marriage but do not have sexual relations for one reason or another.
quote:
When you think about real life, it's ridiculous. The innocent one continues to be punished through no fault of his/her own. It is extreme man-made legalism.
The commands of the Lord are not budensome to those who love Him. For those who love Him, it is a pleasure to bring Him glory through obedience and faithfulness.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 2:21:40 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
If this is in response to me and my questions, Sealed, you are quite mistaken. I have no need of an excuse for anything. I was just wondering how you would counsel someone whose spouse had deserted them, divorced them and been with many partners since then. Do you insist that, if the wayward spouse desires it, reconciliation is required?
I think it would be hard hearted and unchristlike to deny a spouse who came back repentantly and begged for forgiveness and reconciliation to tell them that they have committed the unpardonable sin and they therefore unredeemable and deserve no grace. I'm glad Jesus isn't so cold hearted or none of us would be saved.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 2:29:51 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
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quote:
That is just not true. The only "innocent/abondonded" ones that anyone could consider unfaithful to the Lord are those who disobey the Lord once they are abandoned. If they walk in love/forgiveness towards their erring spouse, teach their children about God's kind of love, longsuffering, and faithfulness----exhibiting such to their children, how could anyone say this person is disobedient?
I wonder that as well, lastblast...
quote:
Is God not able to cleanse that which is "dirty" and bring renewal?
He is able but I have only to look around me to see that it often isn't His will to do so.
quote:
Reconciliation is ALWAYS the Lord's will. If reconciliation does not occur, it is due to hardness of heart on one or both person's part.
So, you insist that reconciliation must take place and that the originally abandoned spouse is the hardhearted/sinful one if they don't reconcile with someone carrying disease? You say they must reconcile and live in a marriage without physical intimacy if there are health dangers from the unfaithful spouse?
One person (I think it was keepingfaith) says that these trials are sent to test our obedience, you say that these things are not burdensome. Which are they? Trials or pleasures?
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
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Eutychus
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 2:38:27 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
If this is in response to me and my questions, Sealed, you are quite mistaken. I have no need of an excuse for anything. I was just wondering how you would counsel someone whose spouse had deserted them, divorced them and been with many partners since then. Do you insist that, if the wayward spouse desires it, reconciliation is required?
I think it would be hard hearted and unchristlike to deny a spouse who came back repentantly and begged for forgiveness and reconciliation to tell them that they have committed the unpardonable sin and they therefore unredeemable and deserve no grace. I'm glad Jesus isn't so cold hearted or none of us would be saved.
SealedEternal
Who said anything about unpardonable sin? What does what I asked have to do with salvation? You would tell someone that if they don't reconcile that they are sending their ex-spouse to hell? I wonder about your choice of words, I really do.
As I said, forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. We do forgive honestly and wholeheartedly whether the unfaithful spouse is ever repentant or ever seeks reconciliation. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon the unfaithful spouse's attitude or actions. To say that without reconciliation we are not forgiving is utterly false.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 3:03:32 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Who said anything about unpardonable sin? What does what I asked have to do with salvation? You would tell someone that if they don't reconcile that they are sending their ex-spouse to hell? I wonder about your choice of words, I really do.
You're missing my point completely. God has said that when we marry we become one flesh with the other person because He joins us and we cannot separate, and He uses our marriages to illustrate our relationship to Him. Christ has forgiven all of us a multitude of sins, and has never turned His back on us when we came to Him on our knees and repentantly asked Him to, yet you claim that certain sins are unpardonable from your point of view, that the person is unredeemable to you, and that one would have to be an idiot to forgive them and reconcile. Do you realize what you're saying about Him, and that your spirit is the antithesis of His?
quote:
As I said, forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. We do forgive honestly and wholeheartedly whether the unfaithful spouse is ever repentant or ever seeks reconciliation. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon the unfaithful spouse's attitude or actions. To say that without reconciliation we are not forgiving is utterly false.
So if when we sinned against Christ and He said "I forgive you" verbally but your sin is unpardonable, you are absolutely unredeemable, I never want to reconcile with you no matter what; then you would consider that forgiveness? His forgiveness is patient, longsuffering, and full of grace and mercy while yours quite frankly doesn't seem to be any of these.
SealedEternal
< Message edited by SealedEternal -- 2/3/2008 3:10:31 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 4:23:21 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
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quote:
I wonder that as well, lastblast...
I'm still not quite sure who you were speaking of in regards to the "innocent" you spoke of. When I said what I did, it was in regards to those who do not disobey the Lord and take for themselves another spouse due to their abandonment/unrepentant spouse. As I said, noone would lay blame on a abandoned spouse who WAS walking obediently with the Lord (remaining unmarried) who IS praying for their wayward spouse to return to the Lord.
quote:
He is able but I have only to look around me to see that it often isn't His will to do so.
But see, we don't know who will or who won't be changed in an instant with the Lord, do we? That is why we are called to be longsuffering and to walk in: "hope never fails"........... if one's hope does fail before the last breath of a person, they are not "abiding" in Him as they should be-----because what Jesus speaks should be manifested in our lives, if He is in us. If it is not being manifested in us, we need to go to the Lord and ask Him to reveal why we are not walking in that.
quote:
So, you insist that reconciliation must take place and that the originally abandoned spouse is the hardhearted/sinful one if they don't reconcile with someone carrying disease? You say they must reconcile and live in a marriage without physical intimacy if there are health dangers from the unfaithful spouse?
Yes, I do believe in reconcilation..........and I believe in healing. I believe that first and foremost that couples that have departed from each other (those God joined together), have to repent to God and each other for their sin in putting space between what God has joined together. After that, they then can work on the physical intimacy issues. Like I said, even people in intact marriages can have issues in their marriages in which physical intimacy is a problem.
quote:
One person (I think it was keepingfaith) says that these trials are sent to test our obedience, you say that these things are not burdensome. Which are they? Trials or pleasures?
It is a pleasure to serve a God who did so much for us, though many times in serving Him we have to endure many VERY painful ordeals. I think how each of us views our service(with joy or grudging obedience) depends on where we are in our walk with Him and how much we have walked through various tribulations/trials. For me, it is absolutely amazing when I read about saints in Africa/India/Asia who are suffering terrible persecution and in the midst of the pain are singing praises to the Lord. Personally, I'm not there yet, but I know that I need to grow towards that attitude of praise through tribulation.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 4:28:00 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
You seem to equate forgiveness with reconciliation. In which case, a person cannot forgive until the unfaithful spouse is repentant and desires reconciliation. I don't think we are told to hold a person's offense against them until such time as they show us that they are repentant. They are to be forgiven regardless of whether they desire forgiveness.
I've never said that you can't forgive someone who isn't willing to reconcile. What I did say is that if someone is repentant and asking to be reconciled, then true forgiveness would not be saying ok fine I forgive you, but go away and I never want to see you or speak to you again. That isn't the type of forgiveness that Christ illustrates towards us, and to me isn't true forgiveness at all.
quote:
Um, what are you saying about my spirit here, Sealed? You're not accusing me of being in direct opposition to God and therefore unsaved are you?
I'm saying that your position that it is idiotic to reconcile with someone who comes to you on their knees begging for forgiveness is not christlike and is not the spirit that He taught us to exhibit. To most people it is idiotic to get yourself nailed to a cross for someone elses lawless deeds, but to God this is true love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness. From a selfish unregenerate human point of view a lot of things Christ taught seem foolish like loving your enemies and turning the other cheek, but this is the agape love that He illustrated and that He bestows upon His children.
quote:
quote:
His forgiveness is patient, longsuffering, and full of grace and mercy while yours quite frankly doesn't seem to be any of these.
What it seems like to you and what God knows it is are, apparently, two entirely different things.
It seems to me that He allowed Himself to be brutally murdered for crimes that He was totally innocent of committing because he loved the world enough that He was willing to suffer the penalty for those who transgressed against Him, and who repented and begged to be reconciled to Him. I'm not hearing that same posture from you.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 4:31:12 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
I'm still not quite sure who you were speaking of in regards to the "innocent" you spoke of. When I said what I did, it was in regards to those who do not disobey the Lord and take for themselves another spouse due to their abandonment/unrepentant spouse. As I said, noone would lay blame on a abandoned spouse who WAS walking obediently with the Lord (remaining unmarried) who IS praying for their wayward spouse to return to the Lord.
I understand what you meant, lastblast.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2008 4:39:52 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
I'm still not quite sure who you were speaking of in regards to the "innocent" you spoke of. When I said what I did, it was in regards to those who do not disobey the Lord and take for themselves another spouse due to their abandonment/unrepentant spouse. As I said, noone would lay blame on a abandoned spouse who WAS walking obediently with the Lord (remaining unmarried) who IS praying for their wayward spouse to return to the Lord.
I understand what you meant, lastblast.
ok. 
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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