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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/15/2008 9:07:50 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings,
Hey Cindy! Its been a while..
"and whosoever marries her that is divorced, commits adultery"
I know what the scripture is saying, however there are 2 points that we should be keeping in mind.
The pharse above uses the words "is divorced" meaning in context as Jesus presented it, that the women was on the receiving end of a divorce by those words "is divorced" meaning that someone divorced her, and that is not suggesting that the women or man divorced the other, "and whosoever marries her that "is divorced", is saying that the women who is divorced can only be divorced on the ground of SI. therefore whosoever marries her that is divorced, commits adultery"
The second point is Jesus was speaking of the same matter, where He first raised that allowence for SI, ....so on that ground the women/man is not divorced, the women/man divorced the other.
Hi Gypsy,
Yes, I agree Jesus is speaking of a woman who is divorced---meaning she is on the receiving end, not the seeking end. We also have Jesus telling us that the husband who puts her away is now committing adultery. You say that in cases where SI takes place, the divorced CAN marry again. Jesus gives us the example in Mt. 19:9, this is not the case----that whoever marries such a woman (who was put away innocently by a husband who afterwards commits adultery by marrying another) is committing adultery. Again, who is the new man committing adultery against if the wife is truly free from her adulterous husband???
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/16/2008 12:15:33 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings,
Hey Cindy! Its been a while..
"and whosoever marries her that is divorced, commits adultery"
I know what the scripture is saying, however there are 2 points that we should be keeping in mind.
The phrase above uses the words "is divorced" meaning in context as Jesus presented it, that the women was on the receiving end of a divorce by those words "is divorced" meaning that someone divorced her, and that is not suggesting that the women or man divorced the other, "and whosoever marries her that "is divorced", is saying that the women who is divorced can only be divorced on the ground of SI. Therefore whosoever marries her that is divorced, commits adultery"
The second point is Jesus was speaking of the same matter, where He first raised that allowance for SI, ....so on that ground the women/man is not divorced, the women/man divorced the other.
Hi Gypsy,
Yes, I agree Jesus is speaking of a woman who is divorced---meaning she is on the receiving end, not the seeking end. We also have Jesus telling us that the husband who puts her away is now committing adultery. You say that in cases where SI takes place, the divorced CAN marry again. Jesus gives us the example in Mt. 19:9, this is not the case----that whoever marries such a woman (who was put away innocently by a husband who afterwards commits adultery by marrying another) is committing adultery. Again, who is the new man committing adultery against if the wife is truly free from her adulterous husband???
Greetings,
quote:
Yes, I agree Jesus is speaking of a woman who is divorced---meaning she is on the receiving end, not the seeking end. We also have Jesus telling us that the husband who puts her away is now committing adultery.
Yes but what was the reason?, Jesus defined the reason and the cause, so telling us that the husband who puts her away is now committing adultery….the only way that could be in that scenario was because than man had no cause to divorce… and is now committing adultery against her.
And in the same matter when someone marries her who was divorced because that man had no cause to divorce….then they both are still married, which now causes” the her and him to commit adultery.
This was the flaw in Moses allowance that Jesus was telling the Pharisees that was not that way since the beginning.
quote:
You say that in cases where SI takes place, the divorced CAN marry again.
I haven’t said anything; I am using the scriptures.
It applies to whom it applies.
I know personally many, who were divorced by adulterers.
But being divorced by an adulterer by the Biblical definition, that divorce is void….and divorce is never void according to the exception.
The principal rides on the same principal … whereby I can agree where one who was divorced “without cause”, that both should remain single …and by that absolute in Jesus explanation without saying a word, dictates that they should remain single; unless one dies.
And by that same word... nothing is said to the contrary that the one who divorced the other for SI commits adultery, for reason it makes no mention as causing the one that was divorced for SI to commit…. its just not there...,
However the only time it is mentioned as causing is when the divorce was not for SI....
“both” in this instance simply can not apply as it would to the above… because of the difference in the cause factor “that they should remain single” it is just not there.
Paul uses the word "loosed" Greek for G3089 ,"from" a wife... meaning the wife was still living, and to be loosed in the first place the divorce in order to be loosed has to be proven as SI, and not for any reason.
That was the flaw in Moses allowance for divorce that Jesus was telling the Pharisees which was not that way since the beginning, because it was causing a lot of adultery that no one was aware of until Jesus came to tell them.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/16/2008 3:50:40 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
And in the same matter when someone marries her who was divorced because that man had no cause to divorce….then they both are still married, which now causes” the her and him to commit adultery.
This was the flaw in Moses allowance that Jesus was telling the Pharisees that was not that way since the beginning.
Jesus didn't say there was a "flaw" in Moses' allowance of divorce to take place. Jesus made it very clear that divorce was not instituted by God---it was instituted by man due to man's hard-heartedness. Jesus was not trying to make it "fair" for the wife who wasn't permitted to remarry. He was making it clear that adultery did not give permission for ANY to marry without committing adultery.
quote:
Paul uses the word "loosed" Greek for G3089 ,"from" a wife... meaning the wife was still living, and to be loosed in the first place the divorce in order to be loosed has to be proven as SI, and not for any reason.
"loosed" means nothing of the sort, Gypsy. That is YOUR insertion of what you believe it means based upon your interpretation which allows people with living spouses to be joined with others. I do not read I Cor. 7:27 that way and though I don't care about "popular" opinion, most all of the commentaries I've read on that passage believe Paul is speaking about NEVER been married men or widowers, NOT the divorced as you assume.
quote:
That was the flaw in Moses allowance for divorce that Jesus was telling the Pharisees which was not that way since the beginning, because it was causing a lot of adultery that no one was aware of until Jesus came to tell them.
There was NO provision for divorce due to adultery in the law, Gypsy. The LORD commanded death!! While Jesus walked the earth, the law was still in effect----the thing was that the Jew was not abiding in the law, but many had gone their own ways (much like the church of today). There were to be no "living moms/dads" in the picture. There were no conflicts between living parents and the step parent situation as we see it today.
Jesus, when He came upon the woman caught in adultery, did not offer divorce as a solution to the sin, He offered mercy and forgiveness through REPENTANCE..........this is the "new" thing........LIFE instead of death. Not divorce instead of death.............not unforgiveness instead of forgiveness, not hardheartedness instead of mercy. He brought marriage back to the creation intent for marriage---NO LONGER TWO, but ONE FLESH---joined by God---until death does part (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/17/2008 12:14:59 AM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 424
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
The problem you and other divorce-remarriage advocates have is that you remove the "landmark": Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. By permitting divorce and remarriage you are teaching just the opposite: Thou shalt commit adultery ... for the second marriage-this-side-of-death is nothing more that what Augustine called: "Adulterous-Marriage. Martin Luther opposed divorce and remarriage to the point that he preferred "polygamy". You can't have it both ways ... you cannot have remarriage-this-side-of-death without adultery.
Those of us who teach remarriage = adultery have a compassion to be used by the Lord to SAVE the lost. Yes, we believe that Ex. 20:14 clearly states: Thou shalt not commit adultery. That is the ONLY LEGALISM in our doctrine of forgiveness-salvation-reconcilation.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
Greetings
quote:
The problem you and other divorce-remarriage advocates have is that you remove the "landmark": Ex 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. By permitting divorce and remarriage you are teaching just the opposite: Thou shalt commit adultery ...
I have no problem with the truth…even with the half offered above, so we will offer the other half
Jesus related the innocent one as the one to whom adultery was “committed against”.
I suppose for the sake of argument that those advocates as you mentioned are those who have received a righteous judgment against the other?
Correct?
Loyal Gypsy
Greetings Gypsy,
We began by discussing "reconciliation" and its virtues towards salvation ... you have now moved the discussion to the innocent partner ... we will get back to the dynamics of reconciliation but for now:
First: What is half about the truth I offered?
Second: What is the reason for your conclusion regarding the idea of "righteous judgment" in matters of the doctrine of marriage and divorce as being the pesonal dynamic of those "advocates" that I refer to?
Those advocates do not express personal righteous judgment in their discussion of marriage and divorce. The Biblical context of my post which you have partially quoted above was supported by Jesus' Doctrine of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. My advocates only persuade for Jesus' teaching regarding marriage and divorce and nothing else.
I mentioned that the innocent partner had a vital role to play in the spiritual reconcilation of the guilty adulterous partner. You countered with an objection with your interjected idea of the "responsibility" of the innocent partner. I then objected to your interjection of the idea responsibility and then I argued that the innocent partner's dynamic was not one of responsibility but one of vicarious love. I then supported this by quoting Isa. 53 the 1Pet. on the Vicarious Atnonement of Christ and the admoniton that we should follow Christ in our love to our wives:
quote:
quote:huckfinn The innocent partner is vital to the resolution of the sinning partner’s crime of adultery
quote:
quote Gypsy: That is a slight contradiction, where is such a thing written?
I believe that Paul revealed that the one who leaves especially… is to remain unmarried for the other partner to be vital to the resolution.
And where does the Bible suggest that we are responsible for anyone else’s sin… other than our own??
So tells us, how does it come to pass… as you said, “that the innocent one”…how is it that the innocent one is now somehow responsible to the resolution of the sinning partner’s crime….when one has just said that they are innocent?
That makes absolutely no sense
LOL!
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Now you have chose to discuss the innocent partner in Jesus' pericope of divorce.
The idea of an "innocent" partner is the vocabulary of us who discuss this subject. Jesus did not use the term "innocent partner" ... He left that term to us. The only thing He said was:
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
The advocates I refer to see Jesus teaching "permanency" ... which is explained as:
No-Remarriage-This-Side-Of-Death.
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2008 8:40:22 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
The problem you and other divorce-remarriage advocates have is that you remove the "landmark": Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. By permitting divorce and remarriage you are teaching just the opposite: Thou shalt commit adultery ... for the second marriage-this-side-of-death is nothing more that what Augustine called: "Adulterous-Marriage. Martin Luther opposed divorce and remarriage to the point that he preferred "polygamy". You can't have it both ways ... you cannot have remarriage-this-side-of-death without adultery.
Those of us who teach remarriage = adultery have a compassion to be used by the Lord to SAVE the lost. Yes, we believe that Ex. 20:14 clearly states: Thou shalt not commit adultery. That is the ONLY LEGALISM in our doctrine of forgiveness-salvation-reconcilation.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
Greetings
quote:
The problem you and other divorce-remarriage advocates have is that you remove the "landmark": Ex 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. By permitting divorce and remarriage you are teaching just the opposite: Thou shalt commit adultery ...
I have no problem with the truth…even with the half offered above, so we will offer the other half
Jesus related the innocent one as the one to whom adultery was “committed against”.
I suppose for the sake of argument that those advocates as you mentioned are those who have received a righteous judgment against the other?
Correct?
Loyal Gypsy
Greetings Gypsy,
We began by discussing "reconciliation" and its virtues towards salvation ... you have now moved the discussion to the innocent partner ... we will get back to the dynamics of reconciliation but for now:
First: What is half about the truth I offered?
Second: What is the reason for your conclusion regarding the idea of "righteous judgment" in matters of the doctrine of marriage and divorce as being the pesonal dynamic of those "advocates" that I refer to?
Those advocates do not express personal righteous judgment in their discussion of marriage and divorce. The Biblical context of my post which you have partially quoted above was supported by Jesus' Doctrine of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. My advocates only persuade for Jesus' teaching regarding marriage and divorce and nothing else.
I mentioned that the innocent partner had a vital role to play in the spiritual reconcilation of the guilty adulterous partner. You countered with an objection with your interjected idea of the "responsibility" of the innocent partner. I then objected to your interjection of the idea responsibility and then I argued that the innocent partner's dynamic was not one of responsibility but one of vicarious love. I then supported this by quoting Isa. 53 the 1Pet. on the Vicarious Atnonement of Christ and the admoniton that we should follow Christ in our love to our wives:
quote:
quote:huckfinn The innocent partner is vital to the resolution of the sinning partner’s crime of adultery
quote:
quote Gypsy: That is a slight contradiction, where is such a thing written?
I believe that Paul revealed that the one who leaves especially… is to remain unmarried for the other partner to be vital to the resolution.
And where does the Bible suggest that we are responsible for anyone else’s sin… other than our own??
So tells us, how does it come to pass… as you said, “that the innocent one”…how is it that the innocent one is now somehow responsible to the resolution of the sinning partner’s crime….when one has just said that they are innocent?
That makes absolutely no sense
LOL!
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Now you have chose to discuss the innocent partner in Jesus' pericope of divorce.
The idea of an "innocent" partner is the vocabulary of us who discuss this subject. Jesus did not use the term "innocent partner" ... He left that term to us. The only thing He said was:
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
The advocates I refer to see Jesus teaching "permanency" ... which is explained as:
No-Remarriage-This-Side-Of-Death.
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
quote:
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Greetings,
quote:
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
quote:
I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment"
Yes I understand that, and you probably wont, ….I believe that is based on the rule that we the living epistles can not give such testimony, so in return we can not put into words how God moved in such situations of divorce and marrying again…..as it seems many of them seem to get kicked off the thread by doing so,
So we have to use the word of God(Jesus), and the Law of God…..
However I believe if we were to wager, and testimony was allowed then other side wound most likely be out numbered, 20,000 to 1
SO we have to stick to the topics which I believe begins as follows
quote:
Welcome to the one stop thread on the topic of marriage after divorce.
Please join the discussion as the thread takes us through the topic of marrying after divorce.
Is it ok to get married when one is divorced?
.
And the second is quite different
quote:
Should a person who has been divorced and since re-married be allowed to serve as pastor/deacon/elder/minister/etc.?
Well the Bible says this again and again, and is depending on the cause of the divorce, if one was divorced for adultery (which is the only reason) and never attempted reconciliation then the word says NO.
quote:
I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Since you raised 2 point here…I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment
and ......how that applies to Jesus' doctrine of MDR
One
It’s always about the righteous judgments…is there any other?
A righteous judgment for one may not be for another, but it is still righteous.
Joh 5:30 - Show Context
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous , because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
That’s just the way it is…Its His Kingdom under His Lordship.
Two
quote:
I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
As prophesied in
Isa 2:3
Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He (Jesus)will teach us His (Gods) ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord (=the interpretation = messiah) from Jerusalem.
Since you asked, I'll work up what the Bible has to say about Jesus' doctrine of MDR, if I can find it, and if I do, it never will and never does contradict what the Father had established in the beginning.
But first, before we start…..one should study up and learn what these 2 things mean, that is if one wishes an un understanding, so we can come to that understanding….
Its not that hard, the whole Book is based on it
Opposites
For example.
But I say unto you, “Love” your “enemies”, “bless” them “that curse” you, do “good” to them “that hate” you, and “pray for them” which “despitefully use you”, and persecute you;
Here we see by definition that an opposite =“not conforming” to the usual type “or expected pattern” …which is obvious.
AND
Constants
In the example below we see constants ... by definition means = remaining the same and not varying with change in “other things”
God never changes.
Here is a little nugget for ya, which I am sure no one has ever shown to you
….. "Whenever" Jesus speaks the Father in the Gospels, He speaks in constants, not opposites. When He speaks of His Messiah-ship , he speaks in opposites , which is the way back.
Because the name of the game is reconciliation to the Father,
A constant by definition means = remaining the same and not varying with change this means that what God joins together or separates never changes in different circumstances.
as The scriptures relates mentions this as God is no respecter of persons
Example:
Example of a constant…..But if ye do not “forgive”, “neither will your Father”
which is in heaven “forgive” your trespasses.
The Bible is loaded with these 2 comparisons, because it is The Law of God…and the Word of the Law of Christ, which is the only way back..... As mentioned in Isa 2:3
What God.. has joined together… Marriage (=Established in the Beginning)
1 Absolute disassociation = (divorce) or the termination of association between God and Man…
2 Absolute reconciliation…or the ending of conflict (the messiah)
These 3 are all in the Fathers control, not ours, and were prophesied and established ….in the Beginning.
Enjoy…looking up those and other comparisons, and when your ready to continue, let me know??
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 2/18/2008 8:59:05 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2008 11:57:42 PM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 424
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
The problem you and other divorce-remarriage advocates have is that you remove the "landmark": Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. By permitting divorce and remarriage you are teaching just the opposite: Thou shalt commit adultery ... for the second marriage-this-side-of-death is nothing more that what Augustine called: "Adulterous-Marriage. Martin Luther opposed divorce and remarriage to the point that he preferred "polygamy". You can't have it both ways ... you cannot have remarriage-this-side-of-death without adultery.
Those of us who teach remarriage = adultery have a compassion to be used by the Lord to SAVE the lost. Yes, we believe that Ex. 20:14 clearly states: Thou shalt not commit adultery. That is the ONLY LEGALISM in our doctrine of forgiveness-salvation-reconcilation.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
Greetings
quote:
The problem you and other divorce-remarriage advocates have is that you remove the "landmark": Ex 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. By permitting divorce and remarriage you are teaching just the opposite: Thou shalt commit adultery ...
I have no problem with the truth…even with the half offered above, so we will offer the other half
Jesus related the innocent one as the one to whom adultery was “committed against”.
I suppose for the sake of argument that those advocates as you mentioned are those who have received a righteous judgment against the other?
Correct?
Loyal Gypsy
Greetings Gypsy,
We began by discussing "reconciliation" and its virtues towards salvation ... you have now moved the discussion to the innocent partner ... we will get back to the dynamics of reconciliation but for now:
First: What is half about the truth I offered?
Second: What is the reason for your conclusion regarding the idea of "righteous judgment" in matters of the doctrine of marriage and divorce as being the pesonal dynamic of those "advocates" that I refer to?
Those advocates do not express personal righteous judgment in their discussion of marriage and divorce. The Biblical context of my post which you have partially quoted above was supported by Jesus' Doctrine of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. My advocates only persuade for Jesus' teaching regarding marriage and divorce and nothing else.
I mentioned that the innocent partner had a vital role to play in the spiritual reconcilation of the guilty adulterous partner. You countered with an objection with your interjected idea of the "responsibility" of the innocent partner. I then objected to your interjection of the idea responsibility and then I argued that the innocent partner's dynamic was not one of responsibility but one of vicarious love. I then supported this by quoting Isa. 53 the 1Pet. on the Vicarious Atnonement of Christ and the admoniton that we should follow Christ in our love to our wives:
quote:
quote:huckfinn The innocent partner is vital to the resolution of the sinning partner’s crime of adultery
quote:
quote Gypsy: That is a slight contradiction, where is such a thing written?
I believe that Paul revealed that the one who leaves especially… is to remain unmarried for the other partner to be vital to the resolution.
And where does the Bible suggest that we are responsible for anyone else’s sin… other than our own??
So tells us, how does it come to pass… as you said, “that the innocent one”…how is it that the innocent one is now somehow responsible to the resolution of the sinning partner’s crime….when one has just said that they are innocent?
That makes absolutely no sense
LOL!
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Now you have chose to discuss the innocent partner in Jesus' pericope of divorce.
The idea of an "innocent" partner is the vocabulary of us who discuss this subject. Jesus did not use the term "innocent partner" ... He left that term to us. The only thing He said was:
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
The advocates I refer to see Jesus teaching "permanency" ... which is explained as:
No-Remarriage-This-Side-Of-Death.
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
quote:
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Greetings,
quote:
In regards to marriage and divorce, I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment" ... I only see the teaching of Christ. I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
quote:
I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment"
Yes I understand that, and you probably wont, ….I believe that is based on the rule that we the living epistles can not give such testimony, so in return we can not put into words how God moved in such situations of divorce and marrying again…..as it seems many of them seem to get kicked off the thread by doing so,
So we have to use the word of God(Jesus), and the Law of God…..
However I believe if we were to wager, and testimony was allowed then other side wound most likely be out numbered, 20,000 to 1
SO we have to stick to the topics which I believe begins as follows
quote:
Welcome to the one stop thread on the topic of marriage after divorce.
Please join the discussion as the thread takes us through the topic of marrying after divorce.
Is it ok to get married when one is divorced?
.
And the second is quite different
quote:
Should a person who has been divorced and since re-married be allowed to serve as pastor/deacon/elder/minister/etc.?
Well the Bible says this again and again, and is depending on the cause of the divorce, if one was divorced for adultery (which is the only reason) and never attempted reconciliation then the word says NO.
quote:
I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
Since you raised 2 point here…I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment
and ......how that applies to Jesus' doctrine of MDR
One
It’s always about the righteous judgments…is there any other?
A righteous judgment for one may not be for another, but it is still righteous.
Joh 5:30 - Show Context
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous , because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
That’s just the way it is…Its His Kingdom under His Lordship.
Two
quote:
I truly do not understand your statement regarding "righteous judgment against the other" in matters of the Jesus' doctrine of MDR.
As prophesied in
Isa 2:3
Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He (Jesus)will teach us His (Gods) ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord (=the interpretation = messiah) from Jerusalem.
Since you asked, I'll work up what the Bible has to say about Jesus' doctrine of MDR, if I can find it, and if I do, it never will and never does contradict what the Father had established in the beginning.
But first, before we start…..one should study up and learn what these 2 things mean, that is if one wishes an un understanding, so we can come to that understanding….
Its not that hard, the whole Book is based on it
Opposites
For example.
But I say unto you, “Love” your “enemies”, “bless” them “that curse” you, do “good” to them “that hate” you, and “pray for them” which “despitefully use you”, and persecute you;
Here we see by definition that an opposite =“not conforming” to the usual type “or expected pattern” …which is obvious.
AND
Constants
In the example below we see constants ... by definition means = remaining the same and not varying with change in “other things”
God never changes.
Here is a little nugget for ya, which I am sure no one has ever shown to you
….. "Whenever" Jesus speaks the Father in the Gospels, He speaks in constants, not opposites. When He speaks of His Messiah-ship , he speaks in opposites , which is the way back.
Because the name of the game is reconciliation to the Father,
A constant by definition means = remaining the same and not varying with change this means that what God joins together or separates never changes in different circumstances.
as The scriptures relates mentions this as God is no respecter of persons
Example:
Example of a constant…..But if ye do not “forgive”, “neither will your Father”
which is in heaven “forgive” your trespasses.
The Bible is loaded with these 2 comparisons, because it is The Law of God…and the Word of the Law of Christ, which is the only way back..... As mentioned in Isa 2:3
What God.. has joined together… Marriage (=Established in the Beginning)
1 Absolute disassociation = (divorce) or the termination of association between God and Man…
2 Absolute reconciliation…or the ending of conflict (the messiah)
These 3 are all in the Fathers control, not ours, and were prophesied and established ….in the Beginning.
Enjoy…looking up those and other comparisons, and when your ready to continue, let me know??
LG
Greetings Gypsy,
quote:
(Quote Huck) I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment"
quote:
(Quote Gypsy) Yes I understand that, and you probably wont, ….I believe that is based on the rule that we the living epistles can not give such testimony, so in return we can not put into words how God moved in such situations of divorce and marrying again…..as it seems many of them seem to get kicked off the thread by doing so,
quote:
Quote Gypsy) What God.. has joined together… Marriage (=Established in the Beginning)
1 Absolute disassociation = (divorce) or the termination of association between God and Man…
2 Absolute reconciliation…or the ending of conflict (the messiah)
These 3 are all in the Fathers control, not ours, and were prophesied and established ….in the Beginning.
From my entrance onto this forum I have read your ONE constant analogy that Jesus doctrine of divorce is based on the sin of Adam and his explusion from the Garden or the Fall. You have clearly stated that again above as:
(Quote Gypsy) Absolute Disassociation. (DIVORCE) or the termination of association between God and man.
IMHO I believe that you do not have Biblical "authority" to equate the sin of Adam with Jesus' teaching of divorce. Jesus does not teach this lesson anywhere in the Scriptures. I have objected to your position on this analogy (Fall = Divorce). I believe it is fallacious. I believe you are permitting husbands to exterminate or "terminate the associaton" of their wives ... as I told you before you are copying the Westminister Confession regardng divorce ... i.e. the guilty adulterous spouse is to be considered "dead."
As I have labored to reveal the heart of man ... that man believes he is a King and that as King of his own Castle he has a God given right to exterminate and expel and unwanted wife from his kingdom-castle.
Jesus clearly taught that man and woman become one ... they twain shall be ONE FLESH ... and that one flesh is inseparable and permanent ... Let not man put asunder ... divorce is a Myth in the doctrine of Jesus.
My words are not righteous-judgment ... they are what I truly believe that Jesus taught ... I have never used any disparaging words to explain this ... I have never even used the common forum righteous-judgment as the harmful derogation ( LOL ).
Thus I totally reject the Doctrine of the Fall = the Ultimate-Divorce. I believe that you are the only source of this doctrine in Christian literature. I believe that such a doctrine is harmful to the Gospel of Christ.
Sincerely ... All for His Glory,
Huckfinn
< Message edited by huckfinn327 -- 2/19/2008 12:10:57 AM >
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2008 9:20:02 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
Greetings Gypsy,
quote:
(Quote Huck) I don't see anything posted here on this forum by "these advocates" of personal "righteous judgment"
quote:
(Quote Gypsy) Yes I understand that, and you probably wont, ….I believe that is based on the rule that we the living epistles can not give such testimony, so in return we can not put into words how God moved in such situations of divorce and marrying again…..as it seems many of them seem to get kicked off the thread by doing so,
quote:
Quote Gypsy) What God.. has joined together… Marriage (=Established in the Beginning)
1 Absolute disassociation = (divorce) or the termination of association between God and Man…
2 Absolute reconciliation…or the ending of conflict (the messiah)
These 3 are all in the Fathers control, not ours, and were prophesied and established ….in the Beginning.
From my entrance onto this forum I have read your ONE constant analogy that Jesus doctrine of divorce is based on the sin of Adam and his expulsion from the Garden or the Fall.
You have clearly stated that again above as:
(Quote Gypsy) Absolute Disassociation. (DIVORCE) or the termination of association between God and man.
IMHO I believe that you do not have Biblical "authority" to equate the sin of Adam with Jesus' teaching of divorce. Jesus does not teach this lesson anywhere in the Scriptures. I have objected to your position on this analogy (Fall = Divorce). I believe it is fallacious. I believe you are permitting husbands to exterminate or "terminate the association" of their wives ... as I told you before you are copying the Westminister Confession regarding divorce ... i.e. the guilty adulterous spouse is to be considered "dead."
As I have labored to reveal the heart of man ... that man believes he is a King and that as King of his own Castle he has a God given right to exterminate and expel and unwanted wife from his kingdom-castle.
Jesus clearly taught that man and woman become one ... they twain shall be ONE FLESH ... and that one flesh is inseparable and permanent ... Let not man put asunder ... divorce is a Myth in the doctrine of Jesus.
My words are not righteous-judgment ... they are what I truly believe that Jesus taught ... I have never used any disparaging words to explain this ... I have never even used the common forum righteous-judgment as the harmful derogation ( LOL ).
Thus I totally reject the Doctrine of the Fall = the Ultimate-Divorce. I believe that you are the only source of this doctrine in Christian literature. I believe that such a doctrine is harmful to the Gospel of Christ.
Sincerely ... All for His Glory,
Huckfinn
Greetings,
Hey Huck, did you look up any of those things yet?
quote:
as I told you before you are copying the Westminster Confession regarding divorce
I need to straighten out a few things first,
I remember you bringing up this way back when, but unfortunately it is no longer searchable in the threads so I can verify my reply, and I believe I said back then that I never heard of this doctrine.
But then again I looked it up again, and this is as far as I will go because you did not offer much as to what that doctrine adheres to… that I assumed to be copying.
The Westminster Confession of Faith is a Reformed confession of faith, in the Calvinist theological tradition. Although drawn up by the 1646 Westminster Assembly largely of the Church of England, it became, and remains the 'subordinate standard' of doctrine in the Church of Scotland and has been influential within Presbyterian churches worldwide (with various changes it has also been adopted by some Congregationalists and even Baptists).
Like I said before, Gypsy and religious people do not mix.
Since this looks like a Calvinistic reformation…. it is not fitting to discuss that in this thread,
I believe there is a thread for this, and if I adhered to that then I guess I would be posting in that thread, which I haven’t to the best of my knowledge... nor will I!
This thread suggests RE: Remarriage “”After Divorce”” - One Stop Thread, I guess Fritz meant marrying again after one is DIVORCED… which is supposed to be the topic…unless I am mistaken??
….so one would assume that the divorce had already occurred... which is even more my ONE constant analogy, along with the word remarriage, which not found in the scriptures.
But I fail to see the simplest logic in attempting to keep people who are already divorced from divorcing. Noble but a little late…IMO don’t ya think! LOL!
The way I see it is One stop= divorce for those considering, marrying again “after” divorce-one stop.
= It’s just too confusing. For others, relating the two,
quote:
From my entrance onto this forum I have read your ONE constant analogy that Jesus doctrine of divorce is based on the sin of Adam and his expulsion from the Garden or the fall.
, but for some reason the other side since they entered into this thread has changed it into IMO a one stop DIVORCE thread. In which I believe there is another thread to discuss what it is you are bringing to the table, about Jesus preventative doctrine of divorce such as you mentioned,
About Jesus doctrine of divorce, as I mentioned and as I believe does not change what the Father has already brought to the table.
Even by Jesus own words… Mt 10:24 - Show Context
That A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a “servant” (Jesus) above his master.
However the Hebrew scripture related the Genesis account to the Law, Jesus most definitely did not raise himself above His master, which is God.
So that is what I believe that is also found in the scriptures, the same as your Jesus doctrine of divorce is found.
quote:
From my entrance onto this forum I have read your ONE constant analogy that Jesus doctrine of divorce is based on the sin of Adam and his expulsion from the Garden or the fall.
Well then let me explain…first it is definitely not my analogy and I appreciate the praise, but it is the OT analogy, according to “Jewish” Doctrine…which Jesus Himself… I believe quoted from, as well as Rabbis today,
which is simply Moses in writing the forerunner for the Law in Genesis… showed us that one can not associate “flesh with the Spirit”, “Salvation and Sin”, all subject to and = to divorce= the termination of association =from one another.
And the definition I offered is that…a definition
Absolute disassociation = (the definition of divorce) the termination of association…. I believe it was taken from the Encarta, under lookup… in MSWord 2003.
What is wrong with that…. is it not Biblically correct?
quote:
IMHO I believe that you do not have Biblical "authority" to equate the sin of Adam with Jesus' teaching of divorce.
Absolutely correct!
Because in this thread…I believe there is absolutely nothing to equate…. because divorce has already occurred.
Since the day I was led to this thread, the other side has been in their own ONE constant analogy… in that Jesus doctrine of divorce says and therefore teaching … that one should “divorce” and return to the other, which is just “as you said”, a doctrine that is harmful to the Gospel….and may I add a contradiction to that scenario…IMHO!
LOL!
Which one is worse Huck who is teaching who …what?…IYO?
quote:
I believe you are permitting husbands to exterminate or "terminate the association" of their wives ...... i.e. the guilty adulterous spouse is to be considered "dead."
Where did I say that?
quote:
As I told you before you are copying the Westminister Confession regarding divorce
quote:
Thus I totally reject the Doctrine of the Fall = the Ultimate-Divorce.
I can respect that…. but what does that have to do with this thread?
We all have to pickup our own mats and do what “the Father” has told us to do, which is why I have not been led to post in the Calvinist thread, or limited to the divorce thread…I have been led here.
quote:
I believe “that you are” the only source of this doctrine in Christian literature. I believe that such a doctrine is harmful to the Gospel of Christ.
Now here is where things become confusing….. You have just said that I was copying the doctrine…which I have never read… and now I am the only source of this doctrine in Christian literature
….I’m all for respecting the beliefs of others, that is until it reaches the point where they seem to be “telling” one what is not true
Come on Huck….make up you mind so we can get on with the topic….
In case you haven’t noticed the congregation has left the building…LOL!
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 2/22/2008 9:28:30 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 7:52:45 PM
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lostsomuch
Posts: 160
Joined: 3/1/2008
Status: offline
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So, as an example, the general concensus on the teaching of MDR seems to be that adultery aside; if you get divorced from someone who is abusing your children and you, admittedly and is unrepentant.
If that same spouse refuses to abide by scripture in any way (even just in one way knowingly and refusing repentance, claiming to believe in God, even when the pastors at their church and counselors try to instruct them otherwise.. their spouse (and children) is/are bound to be with them for life (never filing a divorce) and be subject so such abuse or file a permanent separation and be a spinster for life, still dealing with the abuse.
Is that right?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 7:58:12 PM
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lostsomuch
Posts: 160
Joined: 3/1/2008
Status: offline
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The consensus seems to be that divorce is a sin. Remarriage is a sin unless your spouse commits physical adultery and even in some cases of that. Marriage is until death do you part and committing adultery separates you from God and causes you to lose your salvation. Is that right? I am sorry, I couldn't read all three-hundred and seven pages so I just skimmed here or there. This is the gist of what has been written to this point, is it not?
I thought all we had to do to be saved was to believe in the Lord? Knowing we needed a Saviour because we are not perfect and would slip up, how could slipping up cost us our salvation?
Isn't that back to the seven deadly sins stuff?
I thought the only unforgivable sin was blasphemy against the spirit?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/2/2008 8:08:00 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2539
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
the general concensus on the teaching of MDR
The only problem with the general concensus is that it really isn't. There are quite a few of us who have given up the debate from shear redundency.
The best way to agrue our point is to live our lives as we believe that God would have us live it.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/2/2008 9:45:44 AM
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lostsomuch
Posts: 160
Joined: 3/1/2008
Status: offline
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I am trying to finish reading your statements at Cadz.net.
You make a good case.
However, what about the Matt 18:15-20 process? I hear a lot of, let scripture speak for itself and since God did not say we could, then we can't. Well, likewise, if God did not say we can not, then we can (i.e. apply Matt 18).
If you apply Matt 18 through the church, and your spouse calls themselves a believer but acts as though an unbeliever, then, they are to be treated as one. We told not to be unequally yoked to an unbeliever. So, what does that mean?
Abuse is no less a sin than adultery but neither one excuses the other. Salvation is based on grace of God alone. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Spirit, according to the Word. We are also saved by grace, not by works - although our faith is evidenced by our heart which dictates our words and actions, it does not mean that we are condemned eternally for our failings - lest none of us would be saved, with or without Christ as our Saviour.
So there are a lot of things that are brought into this discussion. The bible is one whole, not individual parts.
While God is the God over ALL and not just the saved, He condemns those who refuse His ways. In fact, He said:
quote:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2008 4:01:09 AM
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Lionroot
Posts: 2
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
There was NO provision for divorce due to adultery in the law, Gypsy. The LORD commanded death!! While Jesus walked the earth, the law was still in effect----the thing was that the Jew was not abiding in the law, but many had gone their own ways (much like the church of today).
Your absolutely right, and to that end I would like to point out two things.
1) There is no provision in the Torah for a woman to divorce her husband.
2) In the NT when a woman is said to divorce her husband, it is a legal divorce that is being spoken of.
Hope that sheds some light on the discussion.
God Bless,
Robert
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 11:08:56 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
[Edited by Admin.]
First of all there is no provision for him to divorce her or vice versa anywhere in the Bible, except for those under the Old Covenant Law of Moses for the cause of premarital fornication which has no application today. God says the two are joined by Him into one flesh and that no man can separate this union for any cause, and if separation occurs both are to remain unmarried or else reconcile, and if either remarries they have entered into an adulterous affair due to the fact that the first marriage is still valid despite their attempts to divorce:
Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I HATE DIVORCE," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Ephesians 5:22-32 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
I Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
We see certain principles emerge here:
1. God is involved in the marriage covenant, and He joins the two into one flesh.
2. God hates divorce
3. Only death may end the marriage covenant
4. People who "divorce" are still companions by covenant and therefore subsequent "marriages" are adulterous affairs.
5. Adulterers (those who divorce and remarry) will be judged by God, and cannot inherit His Kingdom.
The scriptures paint a clear and consistent message on the subject, that differs greatly from the ungodly culture in which we live. Beware of those who try to claim that these verses don't mean what they say, because God has said that those who divorce and remarry will have no place in His Kingdom.
SealedEternal
< Message edited by Fritzpw_Admin -- 3/4/2008 11:34:54 AM >
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 11:20:00 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: losingsomuch
I am trying to finish reading your statements at Cadz.net.
You make a good case.
However, what about the Matt 18:15-20 process? I hear a lot of, let scripture speak for itself and since God did not say we could, then we can't. Well, likewise, if God did not say we can not, then we can (i.e. apply Matt 18).
If you apply Matt 18 through the church, and your spouse calls themselves a believer but acts as though an unbeliever, then, they are to be treated as one. We told not to be unequally yoked to an unbeliever. So, what does that mean?
God specifically said in his Word that adhering to the covenant of His joining two into one flesh supercedes the command not to be bound with unbelievers:
1 Corinthians 7:10-14 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
As Christians we definitely shouldn't seek marriage to an unbeliever to begin with, but if the situation does occur for whatever reason, we are commanded to illustrate the love, grace, and forgiveness of Christ through our commitment to our covenant regardless of circumstances, if for no other reason than as a testimony to our children and potentially converting the unbelieving spouse. To divorce on the other hand would show an unchristlike attitude of conditional love, unforgiveness, and lack of grace, which God obviously doesn't want us to convey.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 11:31:26 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 8024
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of Remarriage After Divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 2:08:53 PM
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Lionroot
Posts: 2
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
First of all there is no provision for him to divorce her or vice versa anywhere in the Bible, except for those under the Old Covenant Law of Moses for the cause of premarital fornication which has no application today.
I love absolute statements that are followed by reversals in the same sentence. Your exception disproves your rule...
quote:
Deuteronomy 24:1
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,
This is the exception that you spoke of in the OT. Which you claim has no application today.
Divorce was less of an issue in the OT, because most sexual sins resulted in execution. Certainly the widower was free to marry.
quote:
Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
So when such "marital unfaithfulness" does exist clearly he can marry another without commiting adultery. So now you have two provisions.
There is only one divorce recorded in the Bible.
quote:
Isaiah 50:1a
This is what the LORD says: "Where is your mother's certificate of divorce with which I sent her away?
quote:
Jeremiah 3:8
I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries.
Yes, the LORD hates divorce, and yet here He is having one.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 6:09:13 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 279
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
the general concensus on the teaching of MDR
The only problem with the general concensus is that it really isn't. There are quite a few of us who have given up the debate from shear redundency.
The best way to agrue our point is to live our lives as we believe that God would have us live it.
Well said and so true! 
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 6:49:24 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: losingsomuch
I am trying to finish reading your statements at Cadz.net.
You make a good case.
However, what about the Matt 18:15-20 process? I hear a lot of, let scripture speak for itself and since God did not say we could, then we can't. Well, likewise, if God did not say we can not, then we can (i.e. apply Matt 18).
If you apply Matt 18 through the church, and your spouse calls themselves a believer but acts as though an unbeliever, then, they are to be treated as one. We told not to be unequally yoked to an unbeliever. So, what does that mean?
As Christians we definitely shouldn't seek marriage to an unbeliever to begin with, but if the situation does occur for whatever reason, we are commanded to illustrate the love, grace, and forgiveness of Christ through our commitment to our covenant regardless of circumstances, if for no other reason than as a testimony to our children and potentially converting the unbelieving spouse. To divorce on the other hand would show an unchristlike attitude of conditional love, unforgiveness, and lack of grace, which God obviously doesn't want us to convey.
SealedEternal
Greetings,
Falling short of coming to the knowledge of the truth, when two unbelievers are caught up in a second marriage... and “one” of them therefore comes to lord… and is now a brother or a sister; in general the scriptures "say" that the sin "was forgiven".
1 Corinthians 7:10-14 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, "he must not divorce her."
And a woman who has an unbelieving husband and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. (Which means kick the bum out of the house!)
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her ""believing""" husband;
Does this passage apply or not, to them?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 12:35:33 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lionroot
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
First of all there is no provision for him to divorce her or vice versa anywhere in the Bible, except for those under the Old Covenant Law of Moses for the cause of premarital fornication which has no application today.
I love absolute statements that are followed by reversals in the same sentence. Your exception disproves your rule...
No, the Mosaic exception qualified the rule. The rule is and always has been that a man and woman are bound by God for life at the point of marriage. In Old testament marriages however the marriage covenant was made well in advance of the actual marriage, and therefore the two were regarded as husband and wife during this time which was called the betrothal period, but weren't actually joined together until about a year later. We see this illustrated with Mary and Joseph:
Matthew 1:18-19 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
Joseph planned to send Mary away while they were betrothed together because he believed she was "indecent", or had committed "fornication" while they were in the betrothal period due to the pregnancy. This is what the Law of Moses allowed for:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (Hebrew lâqach) a wife and marries (Hebrew bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
"Lâqach" means to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away, and "bâ‛al" means to marry, rule over, possess, or own. Therefore the point in time being described there was a reference to the end of the betrothal period when the man would lay hold of his new bride and possess her, or in other words bcome one flesh with her. It states that at this point in time if she was found to be sexually unclean, then he had the option of divorcing the covenant and rejecting her as his wife.
That is the only point in time in which the Old Covenant Law ever permitted a divorce, and actually stated that if she was innocent of premarital fornication at that time that he absolutely could not divorce her for any reason for as long as they both lived:
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
This is also confirmed by Jesus in the New Testament when discussing the Old Covenant Law with the Pharisees:
Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
First of all, the entire claim that God allows divorce and remarriage is refuted by Jesus immediately when the Pharisees ask Him the question, because His answer was an unequivocal NO! He says it is absolutely unlawful to God for us to try to separate what He Himself has joined together, so any claim that He was making provision here for divorce and remarriage is false.
This was His answer to the fundamental question of whether divorce of married couples is ever allowable, and He said it is not. The Pharisees then go on to question Him about the Old Covenant Law and an apparent “exception” offered there which as I showed above was for premarital fornication during the betrothal:
Matthew 19: 7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication (Greek porneia), and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus confirms that the one cause under the Old Covenant Law was for a woman guilty of fornication, but added that all other divorces and subsequent remarriages were actually adulterous relationships. His reference was to the Law of Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1 where it allowed a man to divorce his wife if she was guilty of being unclean WHEN he "lâqach" (took her) and "bâ‛al" (took dominion over her). Jesus acknowledged this provision and then immediately rebuked the Pharisees who He was speaking to by stating that every other "divorce" and subsequent "remarriage" was actually an adulterous relationship, because both He and they knew full well that they had broadened Deuteronomy 24:1 to refer to all sorts of exceptions just as many professing Christians do today, and because of this, they were guilty of adultery and subject to stoning under the Old Covenant Law.
Just in case you want further evidence that "porneia" (fornication) was properly used to describe premarital fornication, again we can go back to the example of Jesus' Mother Mary;
John 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication (porneia); we have one Father: God."
In this text, the Pharisees give a bit of a back handed sneer at Jesus, claiming that the was born of "porneia." This claim could be made by anyone since it is obvious that Mary was pregnant before her and Joseph were married. Therefore they are accusing Jesus of being born by sexual promiscuity before his parents were married (in the betrothal period). That is the only time that "divorce" is allowed anywhere in the Bible, and doesn't apply at all to "divorce" as it is being practiced today. That's why Jesus when speaking to a New Covenant audience didn't even bother to mention this exception which is now irrelevent:
Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
Now that we don't practice betrothal periods and we are no longer under the Old Covenant, Jesus tells us that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery without exception.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 4:59:04 AM
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lostsomuch
Posts: 160
Joined: 3/1/2008
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Yes, SealedEternal. I think, after reading all the bible has to say on MDR, you are right. I read the resources at Cadz.net.
And, another thing;
When we give up on something (giving up on a marriage, per se, would be divorce) then we are saying that something is beyond God, aren't we?? I mean, if we truly believe He is a God of miracles, second chances, resurrection, then we must believe He can raise any and all from the dead - including those of us walking in sin (death) and including those marriages that are in death (not in the physical sense, but in other senses).
It would be so nice to say otherwise, but it's just not the case - yes, even in the cases that hurt our hearts so much because we would love for our spouses, friends, family or selves to be safe or saved from so much pain.
I don't believe that you are in a perpetual statement of adultery, though. I don't believe the bible says that ANYWHERE. And if divorce is a sin because it is breaking the commandment not to do it for any other reason, then to commit divorce with a second marriage would also be sin. But no where is a perpetual state of sin spoken of as some would say. So, if it's sola scriptura.. then, we have to go what the Word says and not add to it.
I think once we turn to God, admit what we've (general "us", meaning believers, not me) done now that our eyes have opened, respectively, the Lord has mercy on us and forgives us. I don't think or see anywhere that He requires reparation (i.e. divorce) from a second marriage. I think teaching that is a sin in itself, if it causing our brothers to stumble into sin - really anything that causes our brothers to stumble is a sin, isn't it?
Also, as Christians, isn't knowingly walking into any sin (including that of within our marriages) somehow worse?
< Message edited by losingsomuch -- 3/5/2008 5:09:57 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 6:59:30 AM
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DrummerMan5000
Posts: 9
Joined: 9/29/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lionroot
There is only one divorce recorded in the Bible.
Wrong. In addition to the Jeremiah 3 verse you posted, please consider Ezra 9-10, Malachi 2, Herodias's divorce of Philip and "marriage" to Herod in Matthew 14:1-12, and Joseph's near-divorce of Mary in Matthew 1:18-19.
Blessings...
< Message edited by DrummerMan5000 -- 3/5/2008 7:06:35 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:54:46 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: losingsomuch
I don't believe that you are in a perpetual statement of adultery, though. I don't believe the bible says that ANYWHERE.
Do you think adultery is only wrong on the first time it is committed or is it adultery every time? It is adultery for as long as you continue in the behavior, and Jesus Himself did say that. Because God has joined the two into one for life, then all subsequent relationships are adultery and continue to be so for as long as the relationship is continued, and won't cease to be until the person stops committing it.
quote:
And if divorce is a sin because it is breaking the commandment not to do it for any other reason, then to commit divorce with a second marriage would also be sin.
No, you're confusing marriage with adultery. If God recognizes the first marriage as binding for life and the second so-called marriage as an adulterous affair, then it is not wrong to end the second adulterous relationship. Just because an ungodly culture allows adulterous marriages doesn't mean that God ever regarded them as marriages, and He Himself specifically said He doesn't. Adultery by definition is a married person having sexual relations with someone who is not his or her spouse, so God has said that He never recognized it as a marriage. Therefore to end the relationship is to repent of an adulterous affair which God not only permits but commands.
quote:
But no where is a perpetual state of sin spoken of as some would say. So, if it's sola scriptura.. then, we have to go what the Word says and not add to it.
It's you that is attempting to change the Word of God by redefining adultery and calling it marriage when He said it wasn't.
quote:
I think once we turn to God, admit what we've (general "us", meaning believers, not me) done now that our eyes have opened, respectively, the Lord has mercy on us and forgives us.
If we repent of sins such as adultery and make Him the Lord of our lives then He will come into our hearts and sanctify us to Himself, but if we insist on remaining in sins such as adultery then we will never come to know Him because He will not be associated with rebellious adulterers who deny Him as Lord.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 11:57:30 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Let me chime in, having not read the 300+ pages in this thread as my time or limited attention span will not allow for me to read through all.
The word "and" in the Bible carry a lot of different meanings depending on the context. We typically see it as a conjuctive or a word that joins to clauses together, however it does have different shades of meaning. It can mean "but", "however", "in order to"
I think Jesus links adultery with divorce in order to reveal intent. If a man divorces his wife and marries another...he commits adultery. They had a pratices in Oral Torah that a man could part ways with his wife if she burnt his food! And the practice of divorcing your wife in order to marry someone else was prevalent as well. God hates divorce! It's treacherous to Him if we mistreat another person in order to satisfy our own cravings
It could but translated "in order to" and it would harmonize well with the text. The people had adopted cruel things it Moses' and Christ times and divorce became rampant. SealedEternal gave a thorough explain and I will not continue.
Thanks for a wonderful exposition.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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