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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:25:06 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The fact that someone would imply that all Godly men and women throughout history who have diligently searched the scriptures but have not interpreted the scriptures as they do "blind guides, fools, blind men, hypocrites, whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness, serpents, a brood of vipers, and many other very derogatory terms" says volumes about why the opinion of those who hold to this very militant view of remarriage should not be trusted.
Those are Jesus' terms not mine, and unfortunately professing Christians have reverted back to the same system of proping up a special class of "experts" to interpret the Word of God rather than going to His Word and His Spirit to do the teaching, which has resulted in the same exact outcome of mass dissemination of false doctrine.
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When someone dismisses the faith of men like Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc... or even modern pastors like Piper (who almost agrees with you) simply because they reject their exact interpretation of these passages, that should stand as a stanch warning when considering anything they have to say, and with a quick look though this history of this thread and one will find those committed to this unique view of remarriage have questioned the faith of all of these men and more.
These men all disagree with one another on countless critical biblical doctrines so we can know for certain that at best only one of them is reliable for interpreting His Word, but the reality is that none of them do, and divorce and remarriage is only one of many examples.
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Many Godly men throughout history have disagreed with this unique view about remarriage, and many of these same men have even given their life in martyrdom because of their faith in Christ, and yet some on this thread have indicated that the faith of these men was not genuine simply because of their disagreement about this one doctrinal issue, and that tells me that a great deal of CAUTION should be exercised before considering any opinion offered by those holding this unique point of view.
Men have been martyred for a slew of contradicting doctrines throughout history, so that actually proves nothing about the accuracy of their views. A child can read the verses I posted on divorce and remarriage in my previous post and instantly see that what is being taught on this subject by the majority of so-called "experts' is false.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:26:18 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Hey, bubba, I agree with you, however if your spouse consistently cheats on you, you have a ground for divorce. I don't know if you'll be called an adulterer if you, the desposed spouse who was cheated upon, meets someone else and marries.
Don't make issues out of nothing.
In this forum, enough scriptures have been quoted to disprove your view. Logically speaking, your view does not hold water. If my spouse cheats me consistently, I should be careful so as not to be cheated. I have to correct her. If she meets some man and marries her, she commits the sin of adultery. How can you call it a marriage? She can meet thousands of men and live with one after another. That is not called a marriage. It is adultery.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:42:38 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
hello I am Dina. I am divorced. This forum has a lot of judgmental people who have not walked in our shoes. I recommend this book:
Confessions of a Good Christian Girl by Tammy Maltby
Read the chapter "It should Have Been Forever". It speaks the words of grace and hope for those who have been divorced. It doesnt condone divorce and it does not condemn people who are already divorced and hurting. There is a beautiful story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well. There is hope and healing and grace for those of us who walk this road. It is not about dotting every "I" and crossing every "T" in the theology of divorce in the Bible. In fact, Jesus condemned those who did this more than He did anyone else. He didnt scream Scripture at the woman at the well who had 5 husband, but spoke grace and healing. We dont have all the answers. Remarriage is a reality for many. Jesus still loves the divorced and remarried . I am not about to get into the babbling nonsense here. I post this so that anyone reading the posts like the one above, that only shout condemnation, to show them the grace and tender love of our Lord. Love, Dina
Dina,
Those who speak the hard truth quoting the words of the Savior are not judgmental people. Do not say that nobody had walked in your shoes. There are some who had already walked in your shoes by remarrying after divorce. They had since repented and are now with us fighting for the truth. The Samaritan woman had five husbands. Jesus had not recognized the man with whom she was living at that particular time as her legal husband. Please note this truth. Jesus called her to repentance. She did not again live with the sixth man in sin after living with the five men in sin. Grace and love are the one side of the coin. But righteousness and judgment are the other side of the same coin. The righteous God does judge the sin of adultery being committed by the people who call themselves Christians - who are saved by His grace. A Christian is one who possesses Christ in his/her life. A Christian is one who obeys the words of Jesus Christ. A Christian is one who takes up his/her cross, denies himself/herself and follows the Lord.
Who is condemning you? We do not condemn you. It is the words of our Lord Jesus Christ that expose and condemn the sin of adultery being committed by the remarried persons.
Grace does not give anyone a licence to continue to live in the sin of adultery.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:45:29 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fist.sensei
It is notable that here you call scripture "symbolic", but when it benefits your argument you take all scripture as "literal."
God being married to Israel is a symbolic marriage and is distinct from our earthly marriages in many respects; Is it not? That is simply a fact, and just because He made Laws governing our marriages to one another doesn't mean that He is subject to those Laws Himself. As a father I impose rules on my children, such as bedtimes for example, that I am not required to adhere to myself, and that doesn't make me in sin for not doing so if I don't choose to because I'm the lord of my household. Such is true of God as well if He doesn't want to follow His own rules. Beyond that I already explained how I believe He did choose to follow His own marriage Law so the whole issue is moot, and beyond that we have very clear commandments in scripture regulating our marriages so we can't apply His relationship to Israel in a way that contradicts them which is what the original poster was attempting to do.
quote:
Scripture also says: "Have nothing to do with: foolish quarrels; lists of people who lived long ago; those who make trouble and argue about the law. These things do not help people and are good for nothing." Titus 3:9
And using your own scripture: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself."
If you think discussions about God's view on marriage and divorce are "foolish" then why are you quarreling with me? You can't have it both ways.
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According to you a man should leave his wife and kids over semantics. The everyman I speak of is a man whose wife left him of her own accord, and he remarried and currently has kids. I don't think that upholds the "greatest commandments".
That is not at all what I said. I said that a man should leave the partner who Jesus calls his adulteress over "semantics." If Jesus says that second so-called "marriages" are adultery then by definition they are not legitimate marriages but rather sin, and the person who is engaging in this sin will not inherit His Kingdom unless they repent and make Him their Lord. Living in adultery is what doesn't uphold His "greatest commandments".
Romans 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." LOVE DOES NO WRONG TO A NEIGHBOR; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Just because an ungodly culture allows adulterous "marriages" doesn't mean that He recognizes them, and in fact Jesus specifically says He doesn't. Adultery by definition is the antithesis of marriage.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:48:45 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I think you missed my point, if your spouse cheats on you, shows no sign of repentance or remorse is displayed, you have the God given right to seek a divorce. It is not your job to punish her (whatever that means). You, the one who was cheated on, may remarry and will not be an adulterer.
I have heard of too many cases, where a spouse has caught STD's from a cheating partner. All in the name of "Ican't get divorced." There have being domestic murders and repeated child abuse in which the victim, all in the name of "trying to stay married because the Bible commands." I've seen partners who have engaged in homosexual behavior, clergyman! prophet india, I have correctly interpreted those scriptures. It is a misinterpretation of scripture and it shows that we haven't researched the context of the time.
In Jeremiah, YHWH gave Israel a bill of divorce because of her idolatrous ways!
quote:
AN UNSCRIPTURAL MARRIAGE SHOULD BE REPENTED, DISSOLVED AND ABDICATED. CONTINUING WITH THE SAME RELATIONSHIP IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD. BE HOLY AS YOUR GOD IS HOLY. I NEVER CONDEMN BUT LOVE YOU IN CHRIST JESUS.
Sorry this is purely unscriptural!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:49:11 AM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
Joined: 6/18/2007
From: Kansas
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SealedEternal,
I agree with your primary stance on divorce and remarriage. God made marriage as he made man and woman and joined them until death. There are, however two exceptions to that rule, and you quote them (or quote around them) in all of your posts.
Jesus said, "except for porneia." And you are correct in your position that this can include that premarital betrothal period. It would be nearly impossible for you to limit it to that time period. And even though stoning was prescribed in Old Testament law for adultery, there are also passages that seem to point to divorce as a way of handling adultery. For instance, the scripture says that a man is not to take his wife back after he has divorced her and she has been married to someone else. This points directly to one being joined in physical union with both spouses, not just betrothal. And incidentally, would preclude anyone who had been divorced, remarried, and divorced from remarrying their first spouse. (Not my opinion, but if you argue only straight OT , there you have it.)
Another exception, which you conveniently quote around is in 1 Corinthians 7. It says that if the unbelieving spouse leaves the believing spouse, they are released from their marital obligations. Arguably, then, according to your own posts, those living in adultery not inheriting the kingdom could be considered unbelievers and if they left a believing spouse that abandoned spouse would be free. (Also, not my opinion, but if you follow your own lines of argument, that is where you land.)
I hate divorce. My family has been ripped apart by it. And the two extreme viewpoints that are often presented--never divorce, and do what you want Grace--seem to do more to trap people than set them free.
Jesus obviously affirmed marriage for life as the way God intended. He also cited hardness of heart as the cause for divorce. More should be done, then, to keep hearts soft to the Holy Spirit and one's spouse if we ever want this issue resolved in our churches.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:50:46 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Sorry this is purely unscriptural!
It's purely contrary to scripture:
Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I HATE DIVORCE," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Ephesians 5:22-32 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
I Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:51:26 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Amen Lycea! I agree with this post!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:55:26 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
SealedEternal,
I agree with your primary stance on divorce and remarriage. God made marriage as he made man and woman and joined them until death. There are, however two exceptions to that rule, and you quote them (or quote around them) in all of your posts.
You haven't read dozens of my posts because i did specifically address those issues countless times.
quote:
Jesus said, "except for porneia." And you are correct in your position that this can include that premarital betrothal period. It would be nearly impossible for you to limit it to that time period. And even though stoning was prescribed in Old Testament law for adultery, there are also passages that seem to point to divorce as a way of handling adultery. For instance, the scripture says that a man is not to take his wife back after he has divorced her and she has been married to someone else. This points directly to one being joined in physical union with both spouses, not just betrothal. And incidentally, would preclude anyone who had been divorced, remarried, and divorced from remarrying their first spouse. (Not my opinion, but if you argue only straight OT , there you have it.)
The Mosaic exception in Deuteronomy 24 was for premarital fornication according to the text, and was confirmed by Jesus as just that in the Matthew passages. The Law of marriage is and always has been that a man and woman are bound by God for life at the point of marriage, and cannot be separated except by death, and this is in both covenants and from the beginning. In Old testament marriages however the marriage covenant was made well in advance of the actual marriage, and therefore the two were regarded as husband and wife during this time which was called the betrothal period, but weren't actually joined together until about a year later. We see this illustrated with Mary and Joseph:
Matthew 1:18-19 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
Joseph planned to send Mary away while they were betrothed together because he believed she was "indecent", or had committed "fornication" while they were in the betrothal period due to the pregnancy. This is what the Law of Moses allowed for:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (Hebrew lâqach) a wife and marries (Hebrew bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
"Lâqach" means to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away, and "bâ‛al" means to marry, rule over, possess, or own. Therefore the point in time being described there was a reference to the end of the betrothal period when the man would lay hold of his new bride and possess her, or in other words when he became one flesh with her. It states that at this point in time if she was found to be sexually unclean, then he had the option of divorcing the covenant and rejecting her as his wife.
That is the only point in time in which the Old Covenant Law ever permitted a divorce, and the only point in time that is permitted, and actually stated that if she was innocent of premarital fornication at that time that he absolutely could not divorce her for any reason for as long as they both lived:
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
This is also confirmed by Jesus in the New Testament when discussing the Old Covenant Law with the Pharisees:
Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
First of all, the entire claim that God allows divorce and remarriage is refuted by Jesus immediately when the Pharisees ask Him the question, because His answer was an unequivocal NO! He says it is absolutely unlawful to God for us to try to separate what He Himself has joined together, so any claim that He was making provision here for divorce and remarriage is false.
This was His answer to the fundamental question of whether divorce of married couples is ever allowable, and He said it is NOT. The Pharisees then go on to question Him about the Old Covenant Law and an apparent “exception” offered there which as I showed above was for premarital fornication during the betrothal:
Matthew 19: 7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication (Greek porneia), and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus confirms that the one cause under the Old Covenant Law was for a woman guilty of fornication, but added that all other divorces and subsequent remarriages were actually adulterous relationships. His reference was to the Law of Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1 where it allowed a man to divorce his wife if she was guilty of being unclean WHEN he "lâqach" (took her) and "bâ‛al" (took dominion over her). Jesus acknowledged this provision and then immediately rebuked the Pharisees who He was speaking to by stating that every other "divorce" and subsequent "remarriage" was actually an adulterous relationship, because both He and they knew full well that they had broadened Deuteronomy 24:1 to refer to all sorts of exceptions just as many professing Christians do today, and because of this, they were guilty of adultery and subject to stoning under the Old Covenant Law.
Just in case you want further evidence that "porneia" (fornication) was properly used to describe premarital fornication, again we can go back to the example of Jesus' Mother Mary;
John 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication (porneia); we have one Father: God."
In this text, the Pharisees give a bit of a back handed sneer at Jesus, claiming that the was born of "porneia." This claim could be made by anyone since it is obvious that Mary was pregnant before her and Joseph were married. Therefore they are accusing Jesus of being born by sexual promiscuity before his parents were married (in the betrothal period). That is the only time that "divorce" is allowed anywhere in the Bible, and doesn't apply at all to "divorce" as it is being practiced today. That's why Jesus when speaking to a New Covenant audience didn't even bother to mention this exception which is now irrelevent:
Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
Now that we don't practice betrothal periods and we are no longer under the Old Covenant, Jesus tells us that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery without exception. the Bible does not and never has allowed for divorce of fully married couples, and the Mosaic exception had nothing to do with the "divorces" being practiced today.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:01:30 AM
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fist.sensei
Posts: 31
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
SealedEternal,
I agree with your primary stance on divorce and remarriage. God made marriage as he made man and woman and joined them until death. There are, however two exceptions to that rule, and you quote them (or quote around them) in all of your posts.
Jesus said, "except for porneia." And you are correct in your position that this can include that premarital betrothal period. It would be nearly impossible for you to limit it to that time period. And even though stoning was prescribed in Old Testament law for adultery, there are also passages that seem to point to divorce as a way of handling adultery. For instance, the scripture says that a man is not to take his wife back after he has divorced her and she has been married to someone else. This points directly to one being joined in physical union with both spouses, not just betrothal. And incidentally, would preclude anyone who had been divorced, remarried, and divorced from remarrying their first spouse. (Not my opinion, but if you argue only straight OT , there you have it.)
Another exception, which you conveniently quote around is in 1 Corinthians 7. It says that if the unbelieving spouse leaves the believing spouse, they are released from their marital obligations. Arguably, then, according to your own posts, those living in adultery not inheriting the kingdom could be considered unbelievers and if they left a believing spouse that abandoned spouse would be free. (Also, not my opinion, but if you follow your own lines of argument, that is where you land.)
I hate divorce. My family has been ripped apart by it. And the two extreme viewpoints that are often presented--never divorce, and do what you want Grace--seem to do more to trap people than set them free.
Jesus obviously affirmed marriage for life as the way God intended. He also cited hardness of heart as the cause for divorce. More should be done, then, to keep hearts soft to the Holy Spirit and one's spouse if we ever want this issue resolved in our churches.
Very well said.
I've found in my spiritual growth that God commands nothing that doesn't show love for yourself and others...
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:02:19 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Another exception, which you conveniently quote around is in 1 Corinthians 7. It says that if the unbelieving spouse leaves the believing spouse, they are released from their marital obligations. Arguably, then, according to your own posts, those living in adultery not inheriting the kingdom could be considered unbelievers and if they left a believing spouse that abandoned spouse would be free. (Also, not my opinion, but if you follow your own lines of argument, that is where you land.)
This one I have dealt with many times as well, but it hasn't been brought up recently:
1 Corinthians 7: 10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
Here is Paul’s teaching to all married people. He says first of all, that we should never separate for any reason just as Jesus did. Then He adds that if any separations should occur, we have two options and two only:
1. remain unmarried
2. be reconciled
Could he have stated this any clearer? Next he adds that this applies whether or not the spouse is a believer:
1 Corinthians 7: 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
Again, this is about as clear as can be, whether or not the spouse is an unbeliever is irrelevant as to whether the believer is to keep their covenant. We are commanded to always honor it regardless of the actions of our spouse.
You're trying to create a loophole by taking the next verse out of context and trying to claim that it eliminates everything else Paul just said, as well as the rest of scripture, and gives a provision to divorce an unbeliever and remarry without committing adultery. Of course they are completely adding this to the text, and Paul has never said anything of the sort:
1 Corinthians 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.
If we limit the text to what it actually says, it only permit’s a believer to allow an unbeliever to depart for the sake of peace, if they refuse to dwell with us. We need to remember the context of this statement:
1. "she consents to live with him"
2. "he consents to live with her"
3. "if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave"
The text itself only permits allowing an unbeliever to depart for the sake of peace if they refuse to dwell with the believer. If however they do not refuse then the believer must honor the covenant they made, and if they refuse we still must honor it and remain unmarried or else reconcile with them. The scriptures are consistent throughout when we don’t try to add what is not there.
Beyond that, Paul himself refutes the idea that this bondage is anything but dwelling together, by stating that the marriage bond itself is only dissolvable by death:
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
If your claim that marriage is dissolved by an unbeliever departing were correct, then Paul would have to be schizophrenic as well as being in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Obviously you are taking his words out of context and creating a loophole that isn’t there. Beyond that you are contradicting what you claim Jesus said was the only allowance, so He and Paul are teaching contradictory loopholes according to you, as well as both of them contradicting themselves.
Romans 7:1-3 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:05:49 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fist.sensei
I've found in my spiritual growth that God commands nothing that doesn't show love for yourself and others...
And you consider divorcing and remarrying as showing love for others? To me nothing is more unforgiving, unloving, and hard hearted as perminently casting away the person who God has joined us to as one flesh for life.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:17:26 AM
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Lycea
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SealedEternal
I have read your posts enough to recognize that you pretty much copied and pasted that last one.
As for Deuteronomy 24:1-4
1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Very clearly in this passage, the husband is sending the wife away from HIS HOUSE. That is not the betrothal period, because she would not have been in his house until after the marriage was consummated. This is present in both instances of being given a certificate of divorce, from husband #1 and husband #2.
And, you most certainly did not answer the exception in 1 Corinthians 7:10-15
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.
I find it very interesting that you denounce those who are arguing cited material from someone else, and yet you yourself must follow a teacher/author/scholar who argues as you do. Why is your teacher superior to another who also studies scripture with the intent to discover its meaning, not personal opinion?
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:18:36 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
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First, there is a BIG difference between the authority of God's word and the authority of your interpretation of God's word, unfortunately some don't seem to understand the difference.
Second, Jesus NEVER used these terms to refer men and women who were honestly seeking God, it is you and not Jesus that used these term that way.
Last, the fact that you would so openly question the faith i.e. salvation of so many Godly men whose impact in history is a clear reflection of their faith in God simply because they disagree with your very questionable interpretation of the scriptures about divorce and remarriage should cause anyone reading your posts to approach them with a great deal of CAUTION.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The fact that someone would imply that all Godly men and women throughout history who have diligently searched the scriptures but have not interpreted the scriptures as they do "blind guides, fools, blind men, hypocrites, whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness, serpents, a brood of vipers, and many other very derogatory terms" says volumes about why the opinion of those who hold to this very militant view of remarriage should not be trusted.
Those are Jesus' terms not mine, and unfortunately professing Christians have reverted back to the same system of proping up a special class of "experts" to interpret the Word of God rather than going to His Word and His Spirit to do the teaching, which has resulted in the same exact outcome of mass dissemination of false doctrine.
quote:
When someone dismisses the faith of men like Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc... or even modern pastors like Piper (who almost agrees with you) simply because they reject their exact interpretation of these passages, that should stand as a stanch warning when considering anything they have to say, and with a quick look though this history of this thread and one will find those committed to this unique view of remarriage have questioned the faith of all of these men and more.
These men all disagree with one another on countless critical biblical doctrines so we can know for certain that at best only one of them is reliable for interpreting His Word, but the reality is that none of them do, and divorce and remarriage is only one of many examples.
quote:
Many Godly men throughout history have disagreed with this unique view about remarriage, and many of these same men have even given their life in martyrdom because of their faith in Christ, and yet some on this thread have indicated that the faith of these men was not genuine simply because of their disagreement about this one doctrinal issue, and that tells me that a great deal of CAUTION should be exercised before considering any opinion offered by those holding this unique point of view.
Men have been martyred for a slew of contradicting doctrines throughout history, so that actually proves nothing about the accuracy of their views. A child can read the verses I posted on divorce and remarriage in my previous post and instantly see that what is being taught on this subject by the majority of so-called "experts' is false.
SealedEternal
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:47:19 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
The Mosaic exception in Deuteronomy 24 was for premarital fornication according to the text, and was confirmed by Jesus as just that.
This is an opinion NOT shared by most biblical scholars or pastors, nor is there any evidence that it was understood as such by the Jewish people to whom it was written.
You are absolutely correct, which is why Jesus called the Jewish "experts" "blind guides", "fools and blind men", "hypocrites", "whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness", "serpents", "a brood of vipers, and many other very derogatory terms. It is also evidence for why He said that the many who call him Lord Lord have never known Him, while only a few of those who call him Lord with their lips actually do know Him and are His children. In terms of Bible hermeneutics, God has made it clear that being in the majority or in line with the experts isn't necessarily a good sign, and that actually the truth is difficult for mankind to accept, so the popular positions are often the false ones, and the popular experts are often the ones who pervert his Word the most.
I still contend that this interpretation of Deuteronomy 24 is the only one that fits the text and harmonizes with the other verses I posted above, while every other interpretation I've seen cannot be consistently harmonized with them without constant contradiction, so there is no doubt that those are in error. You yourself have admitted that this one is plausible, and have been unable to show how your interpretation will fit with the rest of the scriptures on the subject which it obviously contradicts, so I don't see how your position could possibly be true.
SealedEternal
Greetings,
quote:
so the popular positions are often the false ones, and the popular experts are often the ones who pervert his Word the most.
the only one that fits the text and harmonizes with the other verses
Here is another that fits also...
We should take Jesus by His word, which is the word of God, where we find also in the scriptures that God the Father desires mercy, "not sacrifice", and furthermore that we are to go and learn what that means.
The other side in this conversation suggests by popular O, and says, mercy "cannot be" inherited until one makes a sacrifice, in this case divorcing a current spouse and reconciling (remarrying) to the first....who may just as well be married also, which was forbidden in Deut 24.
The other side in this conversation seems to be suggesting divorcing a spouse is justified when coming to the knowledge of the truth and exposing a past adultery in order to gain the Lords favor by keeping His commandments, which is noble....
Except for the one hindrance that we cannot go back and un-commit what was committed, as somehow is would diminish one sin by committing another,
Therefore that type of reasoning IMHO is not of "Christian faith", but a matter of works.
Because the Bible says that the SON OF MAN has the power to forgive sin,
Another inconsistency in the POP O is...
The Bible shows us in Jesus own words that “without the helper” one cannot even come to that knowledge of the truth until their sins be forgiven in the first place ...so it is safe to assume that the helper can not move in until the sin is forgiven first.
Otherwise, it would be like Jesus uniting with a harlot...according to the same scriptures...
I believe Jesus when speaking here, to the quote:
"blind guides", "fools and blind men", "hypocrites", "whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness", Jesus is speaking directly to that type of harlotry called legalism.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 12:20:05 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
SealedEternal
I have read your posts enough to recognize that you pretty much copied and pasted that last one.
As for Deuteronomy 24:1-4
1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Very clearly in this passage, the husband is sending the wife away from HIS HOUSE. That is not the betrothal period, because she would not have been in his house until after the marriage was consummated.
That is what I explained to you in my post:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (Hebrew lâqach) a wife and marries (Hebrew bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house
"Lâqach" means to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away, and "bâ‛al" means to marry, rule over, possess, or own. Therefore the point in time being described there was a reference to the end of the betrothal period when the man would lay hold of his new bride and possess her, or in other words when he became one flesh with her. It states that at this point in time if she was found to be sexually unclean, then he had the option of divorcing the covenant and rejecting her as his wife.
That is the only point in time in which the Old Covenant Law ever permitted a divorce, and the only cause that is permitted, and actually stated that if she was innocent of premarital fornication at that time that he absolutely could not divorce her for any reason for as long as they both lived:
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
The text gives one cause only for divorce which is sexual indecency, and only allows for divorce if it is found "When the man would lay hold of his new bride and possess her. After that point in time it would be expected that she not be a virgin and the issue is moot.
quote:
This is present in both instances of being given a certificate of divorce, from husband #1 and husband #2.
Yes, she has been divorced because her husbands discovered her indecent when they laid hold of their new bride and possessed her, and they both were permitted to give her a certificate of divorce for this cause. It is then stated that the husband divorcing his bride for premarital fornication cannot demand her back after she joined to another.
quote:
And, you most certainly did not answer the exception in 1 Corinthians 7:10-15
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.
I find it very interesting that you denounce those who are arguing cited material from someone else, and yet you yourself must follow a teacher/author/scholar who argues as you do. Why is your teacher superior to another who also studies scripture with the intent to discover its meaning, not personal opinion?
I did answer this issue in my next post, and I do believe that my teachers Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul are superior to the modern so-called experts who contradict them.
SealedEternal
< Message edited by SealedEternal -- 3/7/2008 12:39:36 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 12:33:08 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
First, there is a BIG difference between the authority of God's word and the authority of your interpretation of God's word, unfortunately some don't seem to understand the difference.
The difference is that I believe God makes Himself clear and that His Word isn't open to private interpretations. My opinions are irrelevent but the scriptures I posted that deny the allowance of divorcing and remarrying, and state that doing so is committing adultery, are not irrelevent, so those "experts" that contradict those verses are denying the authority of God's Word.
quote:
Second, Jesus NEVER used these terms to refer men and women who were honestly seeking God, it is you and not Jesus that used these term that way.
He was referring to self proclaimed experts who twisted and contradicted what His Word said, and anyone who denies that divorce and remarriage is adultery is doing just that:
Luke 16:18 "EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Whatever "interpretation" one comes up with with other verses of scripture must harmonize with this one and the countless others I have been posting on this subject, or we can know for absolute certainty that their "interpretation" is false, or we must assume the Bible is self refuting and therefore irrelevent which I do not accept.
quote:
Last, the fact that you would so openly question the faith i.e. salvation of so many Godly men whose impact in history is a clear reflection of their faith in God simply because they disagree with your very questionable interpretation of the scriptures about divorce and remarriage should cause anyone reading your posts to approach them with a great deal of CAUTION.
All I said is that they are false teachers which must be true if they all contradict each other. At best only one of them could be teaching the truth of God's Word, and the issue of marriage perfectly illustrates this because I don't believe that any two of them agreed. I could be wrong because I ignore self proclaimed "experts" and get my doctrines from God's Word, but I know that these men are false teachers based on comparing their words with God's.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 1:20:12 PM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
Joined: 6/18/2007
From: Kansas
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Very clearly, the Levitical passage calls for stoning no matter when the sexual immorality took place (more specifically, if she was sexually active before marriage, she was to be taken to her father's house and stoned at the door). Sexual impurity at the time of consummation was grounds for stoning, not divorce if you read those passages in full. So your argument that divorce was only valid at the time of consummating the marriage is not consistent. In either case, adultery after marriage or fornication before marriage, the proscribed punishment is stoning, not divorce.
Back to the 1 Corinthians passage, you use the latter verse: "I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord." to disqualify the previous verse: "15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace." The problem with this line of reasoning is that it takes verse 39 out of context. The wider view of the verse is this: "39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." Paul is saying in the wide scope of things, it is better to not remarry, whatever the circumstances. AND I AGREE! But that does not negate the previous statement that if the unbelieving spouse leaves, the believer is not bound. It does not stop at saying let them leave, but very specifically says they are not bound.
As for reconciling Paul and Jesus and their teachings. The assumption is that they are in conflict. I don't think they are. If the unbelieving spouse leaves, they will surely either remarry themselves or enter into a sexually immoral lifestyle. That produces a circumstance of adultery, which allows for divorce and remarriage on the part of the believing spouse.
All that being said, I do believe that the best thing possible is for divorced people to either stay single or reconcile with their estranged spouses. I simply do not believe this will be accomplished by stating and restating "the rules." Instead, let us point people to the grace, mercy, and redemption of Jesus so that they will have reason to live by the "rules." Remember that when Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman, he did not say "You are a big sinner destined for hell. These are the rules you are not following. Go reconcile with your first husband." No, he said, "you have had several husbands...if you drink the living water I give you you will thirst no more...I who speak to you am he (the messiah) go and sin no more." I don't know what that meant for her, "Go and be single?" "Go and marry the man you are living with now?" "Go and reconcile with your last husband?" There is no easy answer because divorce is messy, destructive, and sinful.
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It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 1:25:01 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
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He didn't say, "Go, get a divorce and come follow me."
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 1:51:12 PM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
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Very true.
And it is important to note that with the exception of the Israelites being told to divorce their foreign spouses, which God did not tell them to do but their leaders, God never tells people that they ought to get a divorce.
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It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 2:50:47 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Very clearly, the Levitical passage calls for stoning no matter when the sexual immorality took place (more specifically, if she was sexually active before marriage, she was to be taken to her father's house and stoned at the door). Sexual impurity at the time of consummation was grounds for stoning, not divorce if you read those passages in full. So your argument that divorce was only valid at the time of consummating the marriage is not consistent. In either case, adultery after marriage or fornication before marriage, the proscribed punishment is stoning, not divorce.
That is incorrect. That was the original provision, but an additional regulation allowing for divorce rather than stoning was added in Deuteronomy 24 for premarital fornication. The difference is that there was never such a provision offered for adultery.
quote:
Back to the 1 Corinthians passage, you use the latter verse: "I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord." to disqualify the previous verse: "15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace."
You obviously didn't read what I wrote, because the context of the bondage in these two cases is entirely different.
1 Corinthians 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.
If we limit the text to what it actually says, the context of this bondage only permit’s a believer to allow an unbeliever to depart for the sake of peace, if they refuse to dwell with us. We need to remember the context of this statement:
1. "she consents to live with him"
2. "he consents to live with her"
3. "if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave"
The text itself only permits allowing an unbeliever to depart for the sake of peace if they refuse to dwell with the believer. If however they do not refuse then the believer must honor the covenant they made, and if they refuse we still must honor it and remain unmarried or else reconcile with them. The scriptures are consistent throughout when we don’t try to add what is not there.
On the other hand, Paul himself refutes the idea that this bondage is anything but dwelling together, by stating that the marriage bond itself is only dissolvable by death:
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
This verse is in the context of the marriage bond itself rather than dwelling together, If your claim that marriage is dissolved by an unbeliever departing were correct, then Paul would have to be schizophrenic as well as being in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Obviously you are taking his words out of context and creating a loophole that isn’t there. Beyond that you are contradicting what you claim Jesus said was the only allowance, so He and Paul are teaching contradictory loopholes according to you, as well as both of them contradicting themselves.
Romans 7:1-3 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
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The problem with this line of reasoning is that it takes verse 39 out of context. The wider view of the verse is this: "39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." Paul is saying in the wide scope of things, it is better to not remarry, whatever the circumstances. AND I AGREE!
Verse 39 is in the context of the marriage bond, and specifically says that only death can break it. You're twisting his words and adding to what he said. He didn't say she is happier if she doesn't divorce and remarry, what he said is that she is happier "staying as she is" which refers back to his broader point about fathers giving their virgin daughters in marriage. Your interpretation is causing Him to seem schizophrenic and saying that the marriage bond is for life and then that it isn't, and that we may not leave and then we can leave, and that we must remain unmarried and then we don't have to, etc.
The problem is that you're not looking at the context of the two types of bondage. He says that the marriage bond is binding for as long as both of them shall live, while we are not bound to dwell with an unbeliever who refuses to dwell with us because God has called us to peace. His message is consistent when you don't try add provisions that aren't there, and in fact he never offers a provision to divorce and remarry anywhere in this chapter, and actually says it is unlawful.
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But that does not negate the previous statement that if the unbelieving spouse leaves, the believer is not bound. It does not stop at saying let them leave, but very specifically says they are not bound.
Yes, but not bound to what?:
1. "she consents to live with him"
2. "he consents to live with her"
3. "if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave"
The context is to dwelling together and NOT the marriage bond, while the verse that specifically refers to the marriage bond states that you absolutely cannot break the bondage except by death, which is also reinforced in Romans 7:
Romans 7:1-3 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
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As for reconciling Paul and Jesus and their teachings. The assumption is that they are in conflict. I don't think they are. If the unbelieving spouse leaves, they will surely either remarry themselves or enter into a sexually immoral lifestyle. That produces a circumstance of adultery, which allows for divorce and remarriage on the part of the believing spouse.
But you already said that divorce separates the union so according to you remarrying isn"t adultery despite the fact that Jesus says it is. You can't have it both ways. If "leaving" dissolved the marriage bond then adultery could no longer be an issue since you claim there isn't a marriage anymore. If there's no marriage then by definition there cannot be adultery. That position however contradicts the teachings of both Jesus and Paul. Also, if adultery dissolves a marriage as you claim, then the adulterer is also free to remarry which makes Jesus' whole teaching illogical, and makes all divorce and remarriage legal because they are adulterous. Anyway you look at it your own loopholes are self refuting.
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All that being said, I do believe that the best thing possible is for divorced people to either stay single or reconcile with their estranged spouses. I simply do not believe this will be accomplished by stating and restating "the rules."
Of course not, it will only be accomplished when people determine to make Jesus Christ their Lord, and I cannot force them to do that, but I can explain to them what He expects. those who regard Him as their Lord will adhere to His commandments and not find them burdensome, while those who reject Him will do as they will.
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Instead, let us point people to the grace, mercy, and redemption of Jesus so that they will have reason to live by the "rules."
The Bible isn't given as a list of pointless "rules" it is given to show us our sin and need for a Savior. If we will not submit to His "rules" then by definition He is not our Lord and He isn't going to be our Savior either. He only dwells in the hearts of those who welcome Him on His terms and does not offer any grace, mercy, or redemption to those who choose to willfully rebel against Him and refuse to repent.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 2:55:25 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
He didn't say, "Go, get a divorce and come follow me."
No, but He did say stop practicing sin such as adultery and come follow me:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
You're confusing what He calls adultery with what an ungodly culture calls "marriage." By definition they are mutually exclusive concepts. Adultery is the sin of a married person having relations with someone they are not married to while being married to someone else. Therefore if Jesus says that those who divorce and remarry are committing adultery, then by definition the second couple are not married, and therefore have no need of a "divorce."
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 3:27:35 PM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
Joined: 6/18/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
But you already said that divorce separates the union so according to you remarrying isn"t adultery despite the fact that Jesus says it is.
Ummm... No, don't remember saying that. I, in fact, have not said that the covenant is broken by any action such as adultery, or divorce. I'm not sure that breaking a covenant made with God as one of the covenant makers is possible.
I have said that there are exceptions to the divorce and remarriage= adultery rule.
The allowances are for adultery (marital unfaithfulness) and abandonment by an unbelieving spouse.
Neither of these things breaks the covenant, but both are circumstances under which a person might be released from their obligations to the covenant and may remarry without being judged an adulterer.
Neither circumstance requires that the faithful/abandoned spouse must remarry, or must give up on the covenant. It does release them from further obligation to their duties as covenant members. (Otherwise abandoned spouses ought to continue to offer their bodies to their unfaithful/uncommitted spouses.)
If a person believes God is calling them to stand for their marriage covenant in the face of the adultery/abandonment, then they ought to do so. (My mother is doing just that, while my father is on his third marriage.) But they are not obligated by the law to do so.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 4:42:27 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1511
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fist.sensei
And using your own scripture: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself."
According to you a man should leave his wife and kids over semantics. The everyman I speak of is a man whose wife left him of her own accord, and he remarried and currently has kids. I don't think that upholds the "greatest commandments".
If a man loves his neighbor, he will encourage his neighbor's wife to have a heart for the man she was joined to by God. He will NOT take her as his own.........
If a man truly loves his neighbor, he will not take his neighbor's children as his own...........
If a man loves his neighbor, he will not desire to be the cause of his neighbor's wife entering into sin by committing adultery with her..............
If a man loves his neighbor as he loves himself, he will desire to see his neighbor and spouse reconciled and the family GOD joined together as ONE, walking in unity.............
THESE are the heart of God towards one's neighbor.........
One last thing: If a man loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, strength and mind, he will not commit sin against His God and come between what His God has joined together as One...........
Can it honestly be said that one who DOES the above truly loves his neighbor or love the Lord?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 7:08:02 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
quote:
But you already said that divorce separates the union so according to you remarrying isn"t adultery despite the fact that Jesus says it is.
Ummm... No, don't remember saying that. I, in fact, have not said that the covenant is broken by any action such as adultery, or divorce. I'm not sure that breaking a covenant made with God as one of the covenant makers is possible.
I have said that there are exceptions to the divorce and remarriage= adultery rule.
The allowances are for adultery (marital unfaithfulness) and abandonment by an unbelieving spouse.
I misunderstood you because you're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim that abandonment is grounds for divorce, but then you also imply that it isn't by stating that you presume the one abandoning will eventually remarry which Jesus says is adultery. If abandonment dissolved the marriage then the one abandoning by definition is free from the marriage bond and could lawfully remarry, and adultery couldn't be an issue. If the marriage is not dissolved by the abandonment, then the abandoned party would not be free to remarry without committing adultery either.
In other words it takes two to be married, so either they both are or they both aren't. According to your reasoning if adultery or abandonment occur the marriage may be dissolved which means that both parties are now single. To hold that position you can't then claim that the one abandoning is committing adultery to remarry. Of course Jesus specifically said that neither party is free to remarry after a divorce, and even added that the one marrying the divorcee is also committing adultery for marrying another person's spouse.
Jesus said there was one cause and one cause only for divorce, and that was an Old Covenant provision, so it has nothing to do with New Covenant marriages. He also said the cause was for fornication and not adultery, so it never applied to any of the "divorces" being practiced today anyway. He also said when speaking in the context of the New Covenant that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" so there are no provisions whatsoever to anyone today. He made a similar statement to the Old Covenant Pharisees to the fundamental question about whether divorce was allowed saying "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate". This has always been the Law of marriage except for the premarital fornication clause for old Covenant adherents.
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Neither of these things breaks the covenant, but both are circumstances under which a person might be released from their obligations to the covenant and may remarry without being judged an adulterer.
You can't have it both ways. They can't be both bound by covenant and released from their obligations to the covenant and free to remarry at the same time.
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Neither circumstance requires that the faithful/abandoned spouse must remarry, or must give up on the covenant. It does release them from further obligation to their duties as covenant members. (Otherwise abandoned spouses ought to continue to offer their bodies to their unfaithful/uncommitted spouses.)
If there is still a valid covenant as Jesus and Paul both says there is, then there can't be remarriage under any circumstances without committing adultery against the other person. That's why both of them specifically said it is adultery to remarry. That means by definition that the first marriage is still binding after the divorce. If there is a still valid binding marriage then there can't be a remarriage until the person being bound to has died, which again is exactly what Paul and Jesus both said.
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If a person believes God is calling them to stand for their marriage covenant in the face of the adultery/abandonment, then they ought to do so. (My mother is doing just that, while my father is on his third marriage.) But they are not obligated by the law to do so.
Your position is in direct contradiction to most of the New Testament scriptures on the subject:
1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Ephesians 5:22-32 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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