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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 8:03:22 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
quote:
But you already said that divorce separates the union so according to you remarrying isn"t adultery despite the fact that Jesus says it is.
Ummm... No, don't remember saying that. I, in fact, have not said that the covenant is broken by any action such as adultery, or divorce. I'm not sure that breaking a covenant made with God as one of the covenant makers is possible.
I have said that there are exceptions to the divorce and remarriage= adultery rule.
The allowances are for adultery (marital unfaithfulness) and abandonment by an unbelieving spouse.
Neither of these things breaks the covenant, but both are circumstances under which a person might be released from their obligations to the covenant and may remarry without being judged an adulterer.
Neither circumstance requires that the faithful/abandoned spouse must remarry, or must give up on the covenant. It does release them from further obligation to their duties as covenant members. (Otherwise abandoned spouses ought to continue to offer their bodies to their unfaithful/uncommitted spouses.)
If a person believes God is calling them to stand for their marriage covenant in the face of the adultery/abandonment, then they ought to do so. (My mother is doing just that, while my father is on his third marriage.) But they are not obligated by the law to do so.
Greetings
quote:
I have said that there are exceptions to the divorce and remarriage= adultery rule.
The allowances are for adultery (marital unfaithfulness) and abandonment by an unbelieving spouse.
Exactly, there are 2 resurrections, one to life and one onto death
Let’s look at the division in Matthew 22:23-33
23 The same day the Sadducees, “”who say there is no resurrection””, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying:
Boy are they going to be in for a surprise!
"Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brothers.
The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother.
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh.
27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."
Now here are the divisions
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
1 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry “nor” are given (betrothed) in marriage
28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be?
Jesus flat out says it is as if marriage never happened… not even to the first one. (..Very important!)
2 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead,
Jesus said God is not the God of the dead….but of the resurrection of the living…. which brings us right back to # 1
LOL!
Which means that the resurrection “when living”….is whereby we accept Christ… and are “born again” and is when that slate seems to be wiped totally clean……….because when one is dead…it is too late!
33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were “astonished” at His teaching.
Falling short saying of an opinion… it appears Jesus knocked the legalists right on their backsides…LOL!.
Romans 9:25-29 -read context
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." F30 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
Romans 7:1-6
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
So then if….,
while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress;
“but if” her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, =(the slate is wiped clean) …. that we should bear fruit to God
Go Jesus!
The resurrection in Matt 22:29 - 32 is synonymous to Romans 7:3-4 in like manner as Lazarus was loosed from his grave clothes,
Whereby Paul….not trying to bind us… said in 1 Corinthians 7
27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. (a No No! and very Good advice!)
Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. ( a little too late, but still Good advice!)
Now here is the clincher…..
28 But even if you do marry,…. “you” have not sinned;
So there seems to be a type of connection to the resurrection and one being loosed, therefore
And
…along with! (= another subject)
if a virgin marries, she has not sinned.
So there also seems to be a type of connection to the resurrection and one being loosed and the slate being wiped clean in like manner to a virgin who has never married ...and does not sin when they marry
….Now A virgin does not apply to one who has been loosed from a husband or a wife even if they were married… because of the consummation, they are generally not a virgin anymore…IMHO!
So what Paul is showing us here is there is the likeness to one who was loosed by the resurrection in reference to Matt 22:23-33, and a virgin,
Nevertheless such
= (such…. meaning those who were loosed from a spouse by the resurrection and the other choose not to stay with the believer, who now is a virgin)
“and” therefore married again…
SUCH
will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you.
And…. as we can see here in this thread, as that witness…Paul seems to be correct in that statement….
Because… it is verification that that word is true.
In my Biblical Opinion…now how that is abbreviated….
IMBO….
Thank God for the oil of Joy!
LOL!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 8:21:23 PM
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DinaS
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/5/2008
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All that being said, I do believe that the best thing possible is for divorced people to either stay single or reconcile with their estranged spouses. I simply do not believe this will be accomplished by stating and restating "the rules." Instead, let us point people to the grace, mercy, and redemption of Jesus so that they will have reason to live by the "rules." Remember that when Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman, he did not say "You are a big sinner destined for hell. These are the rules you are not following. Go reconcile with your first husband." No, he said, "you have had several husbands...if you drink the living water I give you you will thirst no more...I who speak to you am he (the messiah) go and sin no more." I don't know what that meant for her, "Go and be single?" "Go and marry the man you are living with now?" "Go and reconcile with your last husband?" There is no easy answer because divorce is messy, destructive, and sinful.
[/quote]
Very good post you made. Does anyone honestly think the woman at the well went back, found her first husband (after five different men), found him willing to accept her and they lived as husband and wife till they died? I dont think so. You are so right. Divorce is messy and sinful. And people are often hurting human beings who have endured years of grief with an obnoxious, unrepentant spouse. Some of these are Christians who act in odd ways due to depression, anxiety, selfishness. Perhaps due to unresolved childhood issues. Who knows? Its often impossible to reconcile with them. And many simply do not agree one has to remain single for life. Jesus didnt beat her over the head with Scripture or tell her she would go to hell unless she returned to husband number one. Nor did He demand she remain single the rest of her life. He gave her mercy, as He gives to all us divorced Christians. We just know better how to receive that mercy, because we realize we are utterly dependent on grace. Those with extreme points of view either way usually have a personal agenda. That is between them and God and has little to do with divorce and remarriage.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 8:49:34 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Very good post you made. Does anyone honestly think the woman at the well went back, found her first husband (after five different men), found him willing to accept her and they lived as husband and wife till they died?
Does anyone have evidence that she was ever born again or even attempted to follow Christ? Is she the example we are supposed to follow? Is this supposed to nulify all of God's commandments on divorce and remarriage one way or the other? It seems to me you're just making excuses not to submit to Christ and His commandments.
quote:
I dont think so. You are so right. Divorce is messy and sinful. And people are often hurting human beings who have endured years of grief with an obnoxious, unrepentant spouse. Some of these are Christians who act in odd ways due to depression, anxiety, selfishness. Perhaps due to unresolved childhood issues. Who knows? Its often impossible to reconcile with them.
Those are rationalizations and attempts at shifting the blame. When we make a marriage covenant we are required to keep our end of it regardless of the other person's actions, and to whatever extent we fail is our sin and cannot be pinned on anyone but ourself.
quote:
And many simply do not agree one has to remain single for life.
That is true, because most people reject God and His commandments. He has made himself clear however that the person must do so or they will be committing adultery and cannot inherit his Kingdom.
quote:
Jesus didnt beat her over the head with Scripture or tell her she would go to hell unless she returned to husband number one. Nor did He demand she remain single the rest of her life. He gave her mercy, as He gives to all us divorced Christians. We just know better how to receive that mercy, because we realize we are utterly dependent on grace.
He did in fact call her out on her sin and He did not condone it. He did offer her forgiveness through repentance of that sin and following Him, which would have meant that she would have been forbidden from entering a subsequent "marriage" because she would have understood that doing so is adultery. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says that a person can live in adultery and be saved, and in fact it says that they cannot, and Jesus never implied to her that she could.
quote:
Those with extreme points of view either way usually have a personal agenda. That is between them and God and has little to do with divorce and remarriage.
Either you believe what He says and live by it or you deny Him and do what you want. I do have an agenda and it is to live by His Word and encourage others to do the same, and I make no apology for that.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:04:29 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Does anyone have evidence that she was ever born again or even attempted to follow Christ? Is she the example we are supposed to follow? Is this supposed to nulify all of God's commandments on divorce and remarriage one way or the other? It seems to me you're just making excuses not to submit to Christ and His commandments.
She is NOT making excuses, but stating solid biblical reason's why one should not submit to YOUR command's. Most Christians understand Christ's commands on divorce and remarriage very differently than you do, and believe that submitting to YOUR commands would require disobedience to Christ i.e. when you ask them to divorce a spouse in order to supposedly obey what you have told us God commanded.
We have already seen your argument i.e that everyone throughout history who has not interpreted this as you do is not saved; it is an argument that I absolutely reject!
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:17:01 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
She is NOT making excuses, but stating solid biblical reason's why one should not submit to YOUR command's. Most Christians understand Christ's commands on divorce and remarriage very differently than you do, and believe that submitting to YOUR commands would require disobedience to Christ i.e. when you ask them to divorce a spouse in order to supposedly obey what you have told us God commanded.
So you're claiming that separating from second "marriages" that Jesus considers to be adulterous affairs is disobedience to Christ, but separating from first marriages that He says He Himself joins into one flesh for as long as they both live is allowable?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:25:24 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
She is NOT making excuses, but stating solid biblical reason's why one should not submit to YOUR command's. Most Christians understand Christ's commands on divorce and remarriage very differently than you do, and believe that submitting to YOUR commands would require disobedience to Christ i.e. when you ask them to divorce a spouse in order to supposedly obey what you have told us God commanded.
So you're claiming that separating from second "marriages" that Jesus considers to be adulterous affairs is disobedience to Christ, but separating from first marriages that He says He Himself joins into one flesh for as long as they both live is allowable?
SealedEternal
NO, but you already know that because we have discussed it many times before. Choosing to divorce in either case is always a result of sin by at least one spouse, and divorce is just as wrong the second time as it was the first. Divorce should never be advocated whether it is for a first or second marriage.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:39:35 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
NO, but you already know that because we have discussed it many times before. Choosing to divorce in either case is always a result of sin by at least one spouse, and divorce is just as wrong the second time as it was the first. Divorce should never be advocated whether it is for a first or second marriage.
Choosing to leave first marriages is always wrong, and getting remarried is always sin by both parties involved because Jesus says that doing so is adultery:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Jesus says that all second marriages are adultery, and adultery by definition is the sin of having sexual relations with someone who is not ones spouse while married, so by definition second so-called "marriages" are not and never have been legitimate marriages in the eyes of God according to His own proclamation. Therefore leaving a second marriage is the repentance of sin according to His perspective, and cannot be considered a "divorce" to Him since He never regarded the adulterers as married.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:44:10 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
quote:
Jesus didn’t beat her over the head with Scripture or tell her she would go to hell unless she returned to husband number one. Nor did He demand she remain single the rest of her life. He gave her mercy, as He gives to all us divorced Christians. We just know better how to receive that mercy, because we realize we are utterly dependent on grace.
He did in fact call her out on her sin and He did not condone it. He did offer her forgiveness through repentance of that sin and following Him, which would have meant that she would have been forbidden from entering a subsequent "marriage" because she would have understood that doing so is adultery. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says that a person can live in adultery and be saved, and in fact it says that they cannot, and Jesus never implied to her that she could.
SealedEternal
Greetings,
Wow was this prepared ahead of time??
LOL!
quote:
He did in fact call her out on her sin and He did not condone it. He did offer her forgiveness through repentance of that sin and following Him, which would have meant that she would have been forbidden from entering a subsequent "marriage" because she would have understood that doing so is adultery.
The reason why we don’t take your word seriously is no where in that passage, in Jesus encounter with the women at the well mentions either way… or whether or not her other husbands were dead or alive,
The word echô is used to express the five husbands, and the problem with your analogy IMHO is that an echo returns the "same sound"... and means they were actually legitimate husbands, and is Con-sistant with Jesus as that witness stating
……and 2532 he whom 3739 thou 2192 0 now 3568 hast 2192 is 2076 not 3756 thy 4675 husband 435: in that 5124 saidst thou 2046 truly 227.
The only thing mentioned in this verse is that the one she was now with was not her husband, and there is no suggestion the echo’s were not legit.
The truth of the passage suggests that the women gave up on marriage....
So… if anything a better mythology from that which was offered.... would be to suggest that the woman was actually “living in fornication”, with the “current man” ....who “was not” her husband.
Plain and simple….and by that alone, to repent would therefore be… to get married!
LOL!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:49:50 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
NO, but you already know that because we have discussed it many times before. Choosing to divorce in either case is always a result of sin by at least one spouse, and divorce is just as wrong the second time as it was the first. Divorce should never be advocated whether it is for a first or second marriage.
Choosing to leave first marriages is always wrong, and getting remarried is always sin by both parties involved because Jesus says that doing so is adultery:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Jesus says that all second marriages are adultery, and adultery by definition is the sin of having sexual relations with someone who is not ones spouse while married, so by definition second so-called "marriages" are not and never have been legitimate marriages in the eyes of God according to His own proclamation. Therefore leaving a second marriage is the repentance of sin according to His perspective, and cannot be considered a "divorce" to Him since He never regarded the adulterers as married.
SealedEternal
quote:
Therefore leaving a second marriage is the repentance of sin according to His perspective,
But the Bible says that joining to Chist is the second marriage which there is no sacrifice for sin.
quote:
and cannot be considered a "divorce" to Him since He never regarded the adulterers as married.
But God considers all who are joined married, if not...Then why all the fuss?
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 3/7/2008 9:56:34 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:50:28 PM
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DinaS
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/5/2008
Status: offline
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Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:51:58 PM
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Jude4
Posts: 146
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
To say that creational marriage proponants have claimed that "not divorced" is the deciding factor for weather one enters the kingdom of God or not, is pure misrepresentation. A spouse cannot control weather or not they are divorced as the law stands today. If one is a follower of Christ, you can choose to obey Him in all things, including His commands regarding marriage. You can't, of course, force your spouse to do the same. If a spouse is betrayed by the sin of the other, the only thing you can control is to continue to be faithful to Christ and the marriage, not returning evil for evil. Just so I am clear about what you mean by "works based salvation", could you answer the following.
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Luk 10:25-28)
My question; Do you agree with Jesus affirmation of the lawyers answer, and the promised result ie., "thou shalt live."
_____________________________
REV 21:7-8
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:28:54 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I think you missed my point, if your spouse cheats on you, shows no sign of repentance or remorse is displayed, you have the God given right to seek a divorce. It is not your job to punish her (whatever that means). You, the one who was cheated on, may remarry and will not be an adulterer.
I have heard of too many cases, where a spouse has caught STD's from a cheating partner. All in the name of "Ican't get divorced." There have being domestic murders and repeated child abuse in which the victim, all in the name of "trying to stay married because the Bible commands." I've seen partners who have engaged in homosexual behavior, clergyman! prophet india, I have correctly interpreted those scriptures. It is a misinterpretation of scripture and it shows that we haven't researched the context of the time.
In Jeremiah, YHWH gave Israel a bill of divorce because of her idolatrous ways!
quote:
AN UNSCRIPTURAL MARRIAGE SHOULD BE REPENTED, DISSOLVED AND ABDICATED. CONTINUING WITH THE SAME RELATIONSHIP IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD. BE HOLY AS YOUR GOD IS HOLY. I NEVER CONDEMN BUT LOVE YOU IN CHRIST JESUS.
Sorry this is purely unscriptural!
Under the New Covenant, you are supposed to forgive your offending spouse who is your flesh and blood. However, if you do not want to live with her/him for any reasons like the above, you are free to live separately till she/he repents or dies whichever is earlier. If she/he dies, you are free to marry another person, but not during the life time of your spouse. If your spouse has contracted AIDs or any disease like that, you can avoid living with her. Similarly, if your spouse is continuing in homosexual behavior without repentance, you can live separately till she repents or dies whichever is earlier. God has not give you permission to remarry another person. Ok, you have divorced your spouse due to any of the above reasons and remarries another woman. If that woman also contracts a disease like this, what will you do? Will you keep divorcing and remarrying other women just because the woman concerned has contracted a disease due to her sinful acts? Please answer me. Remarriage with another woman/another man during the life time of the other spouse is nothing but the sin of adultery. It is an unscriptural marriage which should be repented, dissolved and abdicated.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:39:11 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
Please do not speak about the non-Christians here. The Non-Christians in India i.e. Hindus are now learning from the Christians about divorce and remarriage. According to Hindu Scriptures, a marriage between a man and a woman is final and cannot be revoked under any circumstances. Only death separates them. Even after the death of the husband, the wife concerned prefers to remain a widow, wearing a white saree. The gospel cannot be presented in a sugar-coated pill. It is a call to repentance. It is a call to forsake the sin on accepting Christ Jesus. The gospel does not exhort one to live in the sin of adultery. The words of Jesus Christ to the Pharisee expose the sin of adultery through remarriage after divorce. If I tell someone who accepts Jesus Christ to repent of the sin of adultery, it is not a work-based salvation. It is the gospel of restoration from sin to grace.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 8:01:41 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2539
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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DinaS, I find a certain amount of tunnel vision here. They consider the "constant state of adultery" a deal breaker for salvation, but it seems that they don't concern themselves with other constant states of sin... perhaps gluttony. If someone dies while constantly overeatting does that mean they are in danger of loosing their salvation? If someone has lived in a constant state of idolitry to sports, and has a heart attack watching their third football game of the day does that mean they are in danger of loosing their place in heaven?
I have many counter arguement (stated in the long ago past) but one I have is with this "living in a constant unrepentant state of adultery" notion.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 8:16:51 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jude4
quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Luk 10:25-28)
My question; Do you agree with Jesus affirmation of the lawyers answer, and the promised result ie., "thou shalt live."
Greetings,
Then what about the other spouse, who does not agree with that statement... and loves neither God ...nor thier neighbor ?
Are we going to see them in Heaven, or is God just kidding around?
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 3/8/2008 10:01:04 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 8:37:41 AM
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fist.sensei
Posts: 31
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
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SealedEternal- I debate this subject because 1. I enjoy theological debates and 2. So the forum 'lurkers' will have more than one point of view on the subject.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 8:39:59 AM
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fist.sensei
Posts: 31
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
Please do not speak about the non-Christians here. The Non-Christians in India i.e. Hindus are now learning from the Christians about divorce and remarriage.
What are you talking about? She was speaking of the lurkers on this forum who are doing their research and trying to understand the scriptures.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 9:54:46 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I think you missed my point, if your spouse cheats on you, shows no sign of repentance or remorse is displayed, you have the God given right to seek a divorce. It is not your job to punish her (whatever that means). You, the one who was cheated on, may remarry and will not be an adulterer.
I have heard of too many cases, where a spouse has caught STD's from a cheating partner. All in the name of "Ican't get divorced." There have being domestic murders and repeated child abuse in which the victim, all in the name of "trying to stay married because the Bible commands." I've seen partners who have engaged in homosexual behavior, clergyman! prophet india, I have correctly interpreted those scriptures. It is a misinterpretation of scripture and it shows that we haven't researched the context of the time.
In Jeremiah, YHWH gave Israel a bill of divorce because of her idolatrous ways!
quote:
AN UNSCRIPTURAL MARRIAGE SHOULD BE REPENTED, DISSOLVED AND ABDICATED. CONTINUING WITH THE SAME RELATIONSHIP IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD. BE HOLY AS YOUR GOD IS HOLY. I NEVER CONDEMN BUT LOVE YOU IN CHRIST JESUS.
Sorry this is purely unscriptural!
Under the New Covenant, you are supposed to forgive your offending spouse who is your flesh and blood. However, if you do not want to live with her/him for any reasons like the above, you are free to live separately till she/he repents or dies whichever is earlier. If she/he dies, you are free to marry another person, but not during the life time of your spouse. If your spouse has contracted AIDs or any disease like that, you can avoid living with her. Similarly, if your spouse is continuing in homosexual behavior without repentance, you can live separately till she repents or dies whichever is earlier. God has not give you permission to remarry another person. Ok, you have divorced your spouse due to any of the above reasons and remarries another woman. If that woman also contracts a disease like this, what will you do? Will you keep divorcing and remarrying other women just because the woman concerned has contracted a disease due to her sinful acts? Please answer me. Remarriage with another woman/another man during the life time of the other spouse is nothing but the sin of adultery. It is an unscriptural marriage which should be repented, dissolved and abdicated.
Greetings,
quote:
Under the New Covenant, you are supposed to forgive your offending spouse who is your flesh and blood.
quote:
you are supposed to forgive your offending spouse
Absolutely, if not God will not forgive you…especially when it comes to pass at the time
He passes Judgment.
But...How is a spouse my flesh and blood??
It looks like the doctrine of transubutation is taking on a new twist...LOL!
quote:
Please do not speak about the non-Christians here. The Non-Christians in India i.e. Hindus are now learning from the Christians about divorce and remarriage.
Then why are you speaking of them??
quote:
According to Hindu Scriptures, a marriage between a man and a woman is final and cannot be revoked under any circumstances. Only death separates them. Even after the death of the husband, the wife concerned prefers to remain a widow, wearing a white saree.
I don’t see the comparisons…..
That does IMHO shed some light on a type of double mindedness….because the Bible “not Hinduism” (Legalism) says that on “accepting Christ” Jesus…. that GOD ( the real God) casts that sin…. as far as the east is from the west?
I mean even the Pharisees wore garments to express their holiness also…that proves nothing!
… other than you just associated Hindu scriptures and Christian teaching…(I mean you did say) ( Hindus are now learning from the Christians) with the wearing of a white saree.
Since you have not finished your analogy….What do they do when taught by these Christians…
Are they still wearing the white saree????
quote:
The gospel cannot be presented in a sugar-coated pill. It is a call to repentance. It is a call to forsake the sin on accepting Christ Jesus.
OK! If it is a call to forsake the sin on “accepting Christ” Jesus, all we are asking is that you show us in the “Bible” scriptures… where God says to go and get a divorce to be saved???
It seems you are calling the cart before the horse… and stealing Gods glory in the work of Christ Jesus.
quote:
The gospel does not exhort one to live in the sin of adultery.
Exactly… and in like manner we do not see Jesus and Paul in The Gospel exhort divorce, but explicitly speaks that the “only reason” for divorce is SI, so coming to the knowledge is not SI….and you still have not proven after all this time that “any” marriage is unscriptural.
quote:
AN UNSCRIPTURAL MARRIAGE SHOULD BE REPENTED, DISSOLVED AND ABDICATED. CONTINUING WITH THE SAME RELATIONSHIP IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD. BE HOLY AS YOUR GOD IS HOLY. I NEVER CONDEMN BUT LOVE YOU IN CHRIST JESUS.
Over here in the west we call this type of reasoning…an oxymoron
That is unless I am reading it wrong…LOL!
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 10:15:37 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fist.sensei
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
Please do not speak about the non-Christians here. The Non-Christians in India i.e. Hindus are now learning from the Christians about divorce and remarriage.
What are you talking about? She was speaking of the lurkers on this forum who are doing their research and trying to understand the scriptures.
Greetings,
LOL,
You'll get use to it, one has to read pass the cursing...
according to their OP....they have been called to rebuke the west for our immorality, but do not know exactly how to phrase that... in English so well...
1Ti 4:3 - Show Context
They forbid people to “marry” and order them “to abstain” from certain foods, which God created “to be received” with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.
So in the mean time we have to deal with the language barrier, so we can be rebuked properly!
LOL!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 11:02:20 AM
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ourgreatestSource
Posts: 732
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
NO, but you already know that because we have discussed it many times before. Choosing to divorce in either case is always a result of sin by at least one spouse, and divorce is just as wrong the second time as it was the first. Divorce should never be advocated whether it is for a first or second marriage.
Choosing to leave first marriages is always wrong, and getting remarried is always sin by both parties involved because Jesus says that doing so is adultery:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Jesus says that all second marriages are adultery, and adultery by definition is the sin of having sexual relations with someone who is not ones spouse while married, so by definition second so-called "marriages" are not and never have been legitimate marriages in the eyes of God according to His own proclamation. Therefore leaving a second marriage is the repentance of sin according to His perspective, and cannot be considered a "divorce" to Him since He never regarded the adulterers as married.
SealedEternal
Well..about both parties having the same standings is you who are saying it, Seal.
Clearly we see the that God hates divorce, amem! As clearly we see that a person gets defiled for many motives as when enter 2nd marriage and it is an abomination to them to return to 1st spouse..it says in Deut 24:1-4. This situation is not business as usual at all and just return and that is it, not before the Lord and not before the law of men.
If someone take the time to see what is abomination and to defiled meanings in depth, is not a lightly thing at all...The Lord is Holy! Lord have mercy on all, You Faithful One! Thank God He is God alone and see everything and the ways of men.
Jeremiah 3:1 it says:
"If a husband divorces his wife and she goes from him and belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me," declares the LORD.
The Lord sure and true is a just faithfull God and His whole counsel is truth, the whole and nothing but the truth. Amem!
_____________________________
"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 11:33:54 AM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
Joined: 6/18/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Wow,
I am trying to remember the last time I head people who considered themselves to be orthodox Christians really arguing over the means of salvation.
I am pretty sure it has been established since the church councils that salvation is by the atoning sacrifice of Christ. There may be arguments on how we receive that grace, or what our obligations are afterwards, but to say that we are saved or excluded from salvation because of certain actions flies in the face of all things Christian.
I am wondering why adultery has been picked out here as the unpardonable sin, when those same lists of things excluding people from inheriting the kingdom include common everyday sins like lying.
Adultery is not the unforgivable sin. And there is no scriptural evidence that remarriage is a "continuous state of adultery." Even if we recognize the second marriage as adultery in the first place, which I do.
When Jesus gave his teaching on divorce and remarriage, if the "continuous state" was what he wanted to convey, why did he not say, "and everyone who stays in the adulterous second marriage will be excluded from the kingdom?" or "but if you divorce your second wife, and return to the first, you will be saved?"
He didn't say it, because that is not what he was teaching.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 11:48:28 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fist.sensei
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
Please do not speak about the non-Christians here. The Non-Christians in India i.e. Hindus are now learning from the Christians about divorce and remarriage.
What are you talking about? She was speaking of the lurkers on this forum who are doing their research and trying to understand the scriptures.
DinaS has stated as below about Non-Christians reading the posts in this forum:
quote:
It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 11:52:02 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Wow,
I am trying to remember the last time I head people who considered themselves to be orthodox Christians really arguing over the means of salvation.
I am pretty sure it has been established since the church councils that salvation is by the atoning sacrifice of Christ. There may be arguments on how we receive that grace, or what our obligations are afterwards, but to say that we are saved or excluded from salvation because of certain actions flies in the face of all things Christian.
I am wondering why adultery has been picked out here as the unpardonable sin, when those same lists of things excluding people from inheriting the kingdom include common everyday sins like lying.
Adultery is not the unforgivable sin. And there is no scriptural evidence that remarriage is a "continuous state of adultery." Even if we recognize the second marriage as adultery in the first place, which I do.
When Jesus gave his teaching on divorce and remarriage, if the "continuous state" was what he wanted to convey, why did he not say, "and everyone who stays in the adulterous second marriage will be excluded from the kingdom?" or "but if you divorce your second wife, and return to the first, you will be saved?"
He didn't say it, because that is not what he was teaching.
I think that it is this issue about salvation and the advocation for divorce in second marriages that that bothers most who visit this thread. While I would disagree with you and men like John Piper who believe that remarriage is ALWAYS sinful, I do respect that opinion; however, when people begin to question the salvation of those like you, I, and John Piper simply because we don't believe or teach that all remarried people are going to HELL unless their first spouse dies or they divorce, I think the line has been crossed from orthodox to Christianity, and what is being taught is something that should be avoided at all costs.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 11:57:17 AM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Wow,
I am trying to remember the last time I head people who considered themselves to be orthodox Christians really arguing over the means of salvation.
I am pretty sure it has been established since the church councils that salvation is by the atoning sacrifice of Christ. There may be arguments on how we receive that grace, or what our obligations are afterwards, but to say that we are saved or excluded from salvation because of certain actions flies in the face of all things Christian.
I am wondering why adultery has been picked out here as the unpardonable sin, when those same lists of things excluding people from inheriting the kingdom include common everyday sins like lying.
Adultery is not the unforgivable sin. And there is no scriptural evidence that remarriage is a "continuous state of adultery." Even if we recognize the second marriage as adultery in the first place, which I do.
When Jesus gave his teaching on divorce and remarriage, if the "continuous state" was what he wanted to convey, why did he not say, "and everyone who stays in the adulterous second marriage will be excluded from the kingdom?" or "but if you divorce your second wife, and return to the first, you will be saved?"
He didn't say it, because that is not what he was teaching.
Please note that it is not adultery simpleton we are debating in this forum. It is adultery in the words of Jesus Christ being committed through remarriage after divorce during the life time of the other spouse. Adultery is a forgivable sin. The remarried spouse should repent of it and then forsake it. If the remarried spouse continues with the unscriptural relationship, it is tantamount to living in the same sin. The word of God says clearly that adulterers cannot inherit the kingdom of God. There was absolutely no need for Jesus to specify about second or third marriage when He said clearly that he who remarries after the divorce commits the sin of adultery.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 12:05:12 PM
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prophet_india
Posts: 437
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: India
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Wow,
I am trying to remember the last time I head people who considered themselves to be orthodox Christians really arguing over the means of salvation.
I am pretty sure it has been established since the church councils that salvation is by the atoning sacrifice of Christ. There may be arguments on how we receive that grace, or what our obligations are afterwards, but to say that we are saved or excluded from salvation because of certain actions flies in the face of all things Christian.
I am wondering why adultery has been picked out here as the unpardonable sin, when those same lists of things excluding people from inheriting the kingdom include common everyday sins like lying.
Adultery is not the unforgivable sin. And there is no scriptural evidence that remarriage is a "continuous state of adultery." Even if we recognize the second marriage as adultery in the first place, which I do.
When Jesus gave his teaching on divorce and remarriage, if the "continuous state" was what he wanted to convey, why did he not say, "and everyone who stays in the adulterous second marriage will be excluded from the kingdom?" or "but if you divorce your second wife, and return to the first, you will be saved?"
He didn't say it, because that is not what he was teaching.
I think that it is this issue about salvation and the advocation for divorce in second marriages that that bothers most who visit this thread. While I would disagree with you and men like John Piper who believe that remarriage is ALWAYS sinful, I do respect that opinion; however, when people begin to question the salvation of those like you, I, and John Piper simply because we don't believe or teach that all remarried people are going to HELL unless their first spouse dies or they divorce, I think the line has been crossed from orthodox to Christianity, and what is being taught is something that should be avoided at all costs.
The gift of salvation is linked to the question of sin. If a particular sin is practiced by a child of God, then she/he tramples under foot the blood of the covenant. There is no atonement of a sin which is willfully practiced after coming to the knowledge of the truth. Please read the book of Hebrews. A remarried spouse, if she/he does not repudiate his/her unscriptural relationship, it means she/he wants to practice the sin of adultery. How can a person who practices a particular sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, can enter the Kingdom of God? He or she will be beaten with many stripes because after accepting Jesus as the Savior, the soul concerned continued to practice the sin.
_____________________________
Wait on the Lord patiently for restoration of marriage. If you believe Him for restoration, God will make a way for you in the wilderness.
http://mychurch.org/gloryofhiscross
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