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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 12:29:23 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
The gift of salvation is linked to the question of sin. If a particular sin is practiced by a child of God, then she/he tramples under foot the blood of the covenant. There is no atonement of a sin which is willfully practiced after coming to the knowledge of the truth. Please read the book of Hebrews. A remarried spouse, if she/he does not repudiate his/her unscriptural relationship, it means she/he wants to practice the sin of adultery. How can a person who practices a particular sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, can enter the Kingdom of God? He or she will be beaten with many stripes because after accepting Jesus as the Savior, the soul concerned continued to practice the sin.
However, I do not believe that the scripture teaches that all remarriage is sinful, nor do I believe that the scripture teaches that divorce is a requirement for repentance even when the choice to remarry was sinful. What I do see strongly taught in scripture is a very strong admonition against divorce of any kind i.e. first or second marriages, and the Grace of God that is able to cover a multitude of sins when we genuinely ask for his forgiveness of our trespasses. To advocate that someone MUST divorce in order to be saved is a wrong and dangerous theology!
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 1:02:22 PM
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DrummerMan5000
Posts: 9
Joined: 9/29/2006
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Lycea,
I want to obey your words and believe your position. I really do. I have my whole world to lose if I don't. But a few points you made make me wonder...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
And there is no scriptural evidence that remarriage is a "continuous state of adultery." Even if we recognize the second marriage as adultery in the first place, which I do.
If you agree the second marriage is adultery, that means the divorce didn't end the first one. Please show the Scriptures that clearly show the exact point at which a second marriage, while the original spouse lives, stops being adultery. Are they the same ones John the Baptist used when talking to Herod and Herodias?
quote:
When Jesus gave his teaching on divorce and remarriage, if the "continuous state" was what he wanted to convey, why did he not say, "and everyone who stays in the adulterous second marriage will be excluded from the kingdom?" or "but if you divorce your second wife, and return to the first, you will be saved?"
He didn't say it, because that is not what he was teaching.
So since He didn't teach specifically about abortion, that's OK? We could play the "since Jesus didn't talk about it specifically, then we can make up our own rules" game all day and not get anywhere - save for adding a few hundred more posts to this already-mammoth thread.
It comes down to this: if He says remarriage is adultery, and that I need to listen to His voice to show my love for Him and for Him to recognize me as one of His own at the last day, what more do you need?
But let's kick this down the road a bit more - what exactly WAS He teaching if it wasn't the continually adulterous state of a remarriage? That we can just breeze past His words about adultery and do what we want? That the second marriage becomes non-adultery when we say "sorry - my bad!" and show some remorse but keep doing something He calls sin? 2 Corinthians 7 has something to say about that.
With respect, you're presuming that your position and reaction is better and/or more accuate than that of the disciples who heard Jesus first hand. No offense, but the disciples are going to get the benefit of my doubt over you or any other person any day of the week. The disciples weren't confused about Jesus' stance, considering their reaction in Matthew 19. We can't overstate the importance of their reaction to what Jesus said. Jesus went BEYOND the teaching of the day to reinforce the Father's intent of marriage as one man, one woman, one flesh, for life. For many, this is as inconvenient as truth gets. But it is still true. The disciples knew it.
Sure, the disciples were, to put it kindly, a little dense and self-centered and rebellious at times. They misunderstood Jesus and His mission quite frequently. One of them killed His Savior and himself because of it. Another denied ever knowing Jesus. But I'm convinced that they had no doubt about where Jesus was coming from on this one. You look any man in the eye, talk to him about becoming a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom, and make it clear you're talking about how drop-dead serious you were about the permanence of marriage, and you're GUARANTEED to have both his attention and comprehension. Especially if it's coming from the Word Himself.
I have yet to find anyone who can adequately defend the legitimacy of second and subsequent marriages, say that the adultery occured in one point in time rather than being a continual state, AND explain why the disciples reacted the way they did right after Jesus talked about MDR in Matthew 19.
After nearly 2 years of research into this subject (not because I'm a scholar but because of my present situation), I've found that their reaction is the one that that most defenders of remarriage shy away from the most. They simply can't explain it. It is the passage of Scripture that is the least represented in any pro-remarriage debate. Those proponents can carve 1 Corinthians 7 into something unrecognizable, say Romans 7 wasn't really talking about marriage, debate the "exception clause" and "Pauline Privilege" and adultery and Deut. 24 until their keyboards break, but mention the flabbergasted reaction of the men Jesus hand-picked to change the world and there is a deafening silence.
If a really heartfelt "I'm sorry" were enough to make a second marriage legit, their reaction wouldn't make sense. John the Baptist's death wouldn't have made sense. Jesus' words about becoming a eunuch for the Kingdom wouldn't make sense. Paul's admonishments to remain alone or reconciled in the event of a divorce in 1 Corinthians 7 and Romans 7 wouldn't make sense.
Lycea, I want to say that your position makes sense. But to do so would be for me to say that John the Baptist, Paul, and Jesus were wrong. When it's my time to look the Word in His beautiful face, those aren't the words I want to use to defend myself.
< Message edited by DrummerMan5000 -- 3/8/2008 1:22:06 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 1:06:00 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
Dina,
The view that marriage IS permanent until the death of one of the spouses is very biblical and it is the EXACT position the very earliest church taught/wrote about(the 1st-3rd century church). For those of us who believe the Bible clearly teaches the marriage bond endures until death, the teaching that what Jesus called adultery is AOK, is what is evil. It is teaching that God's Grace (which is given to us to be free FROM the bondage of sin) is given to allow us to CONTINUE in relationships the LORD has deemed sinful.
To be sure, although divorcing a covenant spouse (the one GOD joined one to) is due to sin, one can be divorced and NOT be "in sin" if they repent of their part in the divorce. However, repenting of a divorce does not then free one to find another partner. Jesus said that those who are divorced commit adultery if they marry again. Paul taught in Rom. 7:2-3 and I Cor. 7:39 that DEATH frees the married to marry again. If one is divorced from the one God joined them to, they are to "remain unmarried OR be reconciled to that spouse" (I Cor. 7:10-11).
Salvation is not a "works based" issue for those who believe in marriage til death. What we see in scripture is that Paul and Jesus both taught that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now, if Jesus says to remarry AFTER a divorce is to enter into adultery, should that not give us something to be concerned about if we or those we know/love are "in" such situations?
Jesus tells us that those who confess His name but are found to be workers of lawlessness (break His laws), will be cast away from Him, though they did many works in His name (Mt. 7:21-23). Again, is that not something we should concern ourselves with?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 1:14:56 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
DinaS, I find a certain amount of tunnel vision here. They consider the "constant state of adultery" a deal breaker for salvation, but it seems that they don't concern themselves with other constant states of sin... perhaps gluttony. If someone dies while constantly overeatting does that mean they are in danger of loosing their salvation? If someone has lived in a constant state of idolitry to sports, and has a heart attack watching their third football game of the day does that mean they are in danger of loosing their place in heaven?
I have many counter arguement (stated in the long ago past) but one I have is with this "living in a constant unrepentant state of adultery" notion.
car2ner,
If the Lord says one is joining after a divorce with someone who is NOT their spouse(they are committing adultery), why does it appear you believe doing such a thing IS acceptable? Why the deflection to other sins? The Word of God is clear that practicing ANY LAWLESSNESS is unacceptable for those who will enter into His kingdom.
< Message edited by lastblast -- 3/8/2008 1:27:15 PM >
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 1:17:20 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
the Grace of God that is able to cover a multitude of sins when we genuinely ask for his forgiveness of our trespasses.
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 1:36:56 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
While God did NOT ever state that remaining in a second marriage after repentance is sin, he did specifically state that returning to a former spouse after remarriage was sinful i.e Du. 24:1-4. That being the case, I can see absolutely no reason to advocate what the bible specifically prohibits, while trying to make the case for something unsaid.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:35:47 PM
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ourgreatestSource
Posts: 732
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
While God did NOT ever state that remaining in a second marriage after repentance is sin, he did specifically state that returning to a former spouse after remarriage was sinful i.e Du. 24:1-4. That being the case, I can see absolutely no reason to advocate what the bible specifically prohibits, while trying to make the case for something unsaid.
I agree.
Benechi..do you have an ideia when Jewish stop the practice of stoning the adulteress ?
Because we can see in Lord Jesus time they were still stoning them..as Lord Jeus intervene in just that case, I think...
The divorced people in Biblical times were not the adulteress because the adulteress were senteced to die if the law was taken by the letter and etc...well, Kings and Nobility were untouchables, it seems, because if not David would be stoned too... 
_____________________________
"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:38:34 PM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
Joined: 6/18/2007
From: Kansas
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Drummerman,
You are correct that Jesus did not teach on abortion, but I did not say that Jesus did not teach on divorce and remarriage, what I said is that he did not go further in saying that second marriages must be ended in order to receive salvation. It is also important that in his subsequent discussion with the disciples, when they say "If this is the case, it is better not to marry!" Jesus says that whoever is able to accept this teaching should accept it.
I believe that divorce and remarriage in the absence of one of the allowances (adultery on the part of the other spouse, or abandonment by an unbeliever) is adultery. I don't believe adultery ends a covenant, but I do believe it gives allowance for the injured spouse to remarry (at which point ending the covenant, if that is possible).
I believe that people ought to seek God's guidance as to what their repentance entails. For some, it may very well be that they need to end the relationship they are in and return to their first spouse. For others, maybe not. It is the same with any act of repentance. If someone lived a life of crime and stole from so many people that they lost track, would they need to find every person they ever stole from and make restitution? That would be the best thing to do, but it is not necessarily possible, nor is it required for forgiveness.
Jesus paid the price for our sins so that we would not have to. I believe we ought to trust his guidance and grace for each one as they come to repentance, that he will guide them into all truth through his Holy Spirit. Ideally that will be celibacy or reconciliation, but God's Grace knows no limit. If there is one who cannot accept this teaching, I believe God's Grace can work on them anyway.
I, also do not look lightly on this issue. I believe that my father is in an adulterous relationship in his third marriage (common-law through joint property). I hope he will come to repentance, and when he does that he will reconcile with my mother. But if God chooses to direct them in another way, so be it.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:45:40 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
While God did NOT ever state that remaining in a second marriage after repentance is sin, he did specifically state that returning to a former spouse after remarriage was sinful i.e Du. 24:1-4. That being the case, I can see absolutely no reason to advocate what the bible specifically prohibits, while trying to make the case for something unsaid.
Do you find anywhere in the NT where the relationship Jesus calls adultery (because one or both are ALREADY joined to another) becomes a lawful marriage in the sight of God?
Did David sin by taking back Michal after she married another man, Benelchi? Also, are you under the Mosaic covenant?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:48:33 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
Because we can see in Lord Jesus time they were still stoning them..as Lord Jeus intervene in just that case, I think...
The divorced people in Biblical times were not the adulteress because the adulteress were senteced to die if the law was taken by the letter and etc...well, Kings and Nobility were untouchables, it seems, because if not David would be stoned too...
Jesus told the adulteress to "go and sin no more"............plainly spoken, that would mean that she is not to return to adulterous practices. If one is in a relationship that is adultery in the Lord's eyes, that would mean to stop committing adultery with that person who is NOT your spouse(in the eyes of the Lord). It matters not to the Lord that the civil law says so and so is one's spouse...........If He did not join them, they are in sin.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:50:21 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Drummerman,
You are correct that Jesus did not teach on abortion, but I did not say that Jesus did not teach on divorce and remarriage, what I said is that he did not go further in saying that second marriages must be ended in order to receive salvation. It is also important that in his subsequent discussion with the disciples, when they say "If this is the case, it is better not to marry!" Jesus says that whoever is able to accept this teaching should accept it.
Whoever is able to accept this is: "whosoever shall LOSE their life for my sake, shall find life". They are who Jesus was speaking of. To obey Him is not an option for one who says they love Jesus more than they love their life.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:57:43 PM
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DinaS
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jude4
quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
To say that creational marriage proponants have claimed that "not divorced" is the deciding factor for weather one enters the kingdom of God or not, is pure misrepresentation. A spouse cannot control weather or not they are divorced as the law stands today. If one is a follower of Christ, you can choose to obey Him in all things, including His commands regarding marriage. You can't, of course, force your spouse to do the same. If a spouse is betrayed by the sin of the other, the only thing you can control is to continue to be faithful to Christ and the marriage, not returning evil for evil. Just so I am clear about what you mean by "works based salvation", could you answer the following.
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Luk 10:25-28)
My question; Do you agree with Jesus affirmation of the lawyers answer, and the promised result ie., "thou shalt live."
He was trying to get the young man to think. Jesus seldom answered directly, He usually made the person think. Do you think the young man was perfect and was saved by the law? Is that what you are implying??? Surely not. We all know what is meant by works based salvation. Its earning your way to heaven by being good, which none of us can do. It has to be by grace. That includes the divorced and the married till death do us part folks.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 3:58:37 PM
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ourgreatestSource
Posts: 732
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
Because we can see in Lord Jesus time they were still stoning them..as Lord Jeus intervene in just that case, I think...
The divorced people in Biblical times were not the adulteress because the adulteress were senteced to die if the law was taken by the letter and etc...well, Kings and Nobility were untouchables, it seems, because if not David would be stoned too...
Jesus told the adulteress to "go and sin no more"............plainly spoken, that would mean that she is not to return to adulterous practices. If one is in a relationship that is adultery in the Lord's eyes, that would mean to stop committing adultery with that person who is NOT your spouse(in the eyes of the Lord). It matters not to the Lord that the civil law says so and so is one's spouse...........If He did not join them, they are in sin.
Yes Lasblast..I understand that, as it is clear in the NT what the Lord said.
But men mess up the law of good big time. He said strong words to the fariseus, scribes, saduceus ...the way the interpreted and added to the law of God..because "in the beggining" by God it was all perfect. It is old situation as religious men saying they were talking for God did not even reckognized when He lived among them.
Lord have mercy. And sure the Lord Himself intervened and stepped Himself in history, forever, His is the last word for any matter as His Word remains!
_____________________________
"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 4:01:14 PM
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DinaS
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/5/2008
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Dina,
The view that marriage IS permanent until the death of one of the spouses is very biblical and it is the EXACT position the very earliest church taught/wrote about(the 1st-3rd century church). For those of us who believe the Bible clearly teaches the marriage bond endures until death, the teaching that what Jesus called adultery is AOK, is what is evil. It is teaching that God's Grace (which is given to us to be free FROM the bondage of sin) is given to allow us to CONTINUE in relationships the LORD has deemed sinful.
To be sure, although divorcing a covenant spouse (the one GOD joined one to) is due to sin, one can be divorced and NOT be "in sin" if they repent of their part in the divorce. However, repenting of a divorce does not then free one to find another partner. Jesus said that those who are divorced commit adultery if they marry again. Paul taught in Rom. 7:2-3 and I Cor. 7:39 that DEATH frees the married to marry again. If one is divorced from the one God joined them to, they are to "remain unmarried OR be reconciled to that spouse" (I Cor. 7:10-11).
Salvation is not a "works based" issue for those who believe in marriage til death. What we see in scripture is that Paul and Jesus both taught that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now, if Jesus says to remarry AFTER a divorce is to enter into adultery, should that not give us something to be concerned about if we or those we know/love are "in" such situations?
Jesus tells us that those who confess His name but are found to be workers of lawlessness (break His laws), will be cast away from Him, though they did many works in His name (Mt. 7:21-23). Again, is that not something we should concern ourselves with?
[/quote]
That is nothing but a works based salvation point of view. If you are saying we must keep the law to be saved, then you had better take me out and stone me for being divorced. that is also in the Law. Are you under law or grace? Praise Him! Its by grace.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 4:05:05 PM
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DinaS
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet_india
quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
Please do not speak about the non-Christians here. The Non-Christians in India i.e. Hindus are now learning from the Christians about divorce and remarriage. According to Hindu Scriptures, a marriage between a man and a woman is final and cannot be revoked under any circumstances. Only death separates them. Even after the death of the husband, the wife concerned prefers to remain a widow, wearing a white saree.
What non Christians? I have no idea what you mean and I live in the US. I have no idea why you are refering to Hindu customs?
The gospel cannot be presented in a sugar-coated pill. It is a call to repentance. It is a call to forsake the sin on accepting Christ Jesus. The gospel does not exhort one to live in the sin of adultery. The words of Jesus Christ to the Pharisee expose the sin of adultery through remarriage after divorce. If I tell someone who accepts Jesus Christ to repent of the sin of adultery, it is not a work-based salvation. It is the gospel of restoration from sin to grace.
I have no idea what you are trying to say frankly.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 4:42:42 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
While God did NOT ever state that remaining in a second marriage after repentance is sin, he did specifically state that returning to a former spouse after remarriage was sinful i.e Du. 24:1-4. That being the case, I can see absolutely no reason to advocate what the bible specifically prohibits, while trying to make the case for something unsaid.
Do you find anywhere in the NT where the relationship Jesus calls adultery (because one or both are ALREADY joined to another) becomes a lawful marriage in the sight of God?
No, but I don't see anywhere in the NT where Jesus or any other author calls those in a second marriage to divorce. What I do see is the allowances for divorce given by Jesus (Mt. 5 and 19), and Paul (1 Co. 7)
quote:
Did David sin by taking back Michal after she married another man, Benelchi?
David did not divorce Michal.
quote:
Also, are you under the Mosaic covenant?
No, but just as so many of the moral principles of the OT do still apply i.e. lying, steeling, coveting, are all still prohibited, there is no reason to believe that God changed his mind regarding divorce and remarriage. In the Sermon on the mount (Mt. 5) where Jesus was addressing the misinterpretation of many of the OT Laws and how they apply to us who are under the NT, he specifically addressed the issue of adultery as a exception.
However, all these things aside. I think the far bigger issue is that those holding to the theology of divorce and remarriage that you have advocated reject the validity of the faith in Christ of all those who disagree. When a person's theology requires one to reject the validity of the faith of Godly men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, as well as almost every modern pastor, a lot of WARNING flags should be raised telling us that something is very wrong.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 5:12:48 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2234
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Dina,
The view that marriage IS permanent until the death of one of the spouses is very biblical and it is the EXACT position the very earliest church taught/wrote about(the 1st-3rd century church). For those of us who believe the Bible clearly teaches the marriage bond endures until death, the teaching that what Jesus called adultery is AOK, is what is evil.
It is teaching that God's Grace (which is given to us to be free FROM the bondage of sin) is given to allow us to CONTINUE in relationships the LORD has deemed sinful.
To be sure, although divorcing a covenant spouse (the one GOD joined one to) is due to sin, one can be divorced and NOT be "in sin" if they repent of their part in the divorce. However, repenting of a divorce does not then free one to find another partner. Jesus said that those who are divorced commit adultery if they marry again. Paul taught in Rom. 7:2-3 and I Cor. 7:39 that DEATH frees the married to marry again. If one is divorced from the one God joined them to, they are to "remain unmarried OR be reconciled to that spouse" (I Cor. 7:10-11).
Salvation is not a "works based" issue for those who believe in marriage til death. What we see in scripture is that Paul and Jesus both taught that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now, if Jesus says to remarry AFTER a divorce is to enter into adultery, should that not give us something to be concerned about if we or those we know/love are "in" such situations?
Jesus tells us that those who confess His name but are found to be workers of lawlessness (break His laws), will be cast away from Him, though they did many works in His name (Mt. 7:21-23). Again, is that not something we should concern ourselves with?
Greetings,
quote:
Salvation is not a "works based" issue for those who believe in marriage til death. What we see in scripture is that Paul and Jesus both taught that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Actually it was not Jesus,
Jesus said He “did not come” to condemn, so that would be a slight contradiction to His word by saying that any particular sinner cannot inherit the kingdom of God, …being that He came to save them.
And we do not see in the scriptures Him condemning anyone,
Truthfully…the proper context is the “full” context… so let us add the rest.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Now this Paul speaking….
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous ( = those without the righteousness of Christ…)
Will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, F14 nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Now here comes the three …buts
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Truthfully, it wasn’t Paul either….I do not see here where Paul is saying anything you have mentioned above, concerning adulterers, unless his he didn’t mean 11 And such “were” some of you??
The rest of 1 Cor 6 Is simply Paul’s reiteration and anger concerning what He said in verse 1?
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?
So Paul “was not speaking to the Saints”, but of the Saints bringing their issues before the “’unrighteous.””
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 5:16:29 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2234
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Dina,
That is nothing but a works based salvation point of view. If you are saying we must keep the law to be saved, then you had better take me out and stone me for being divorced. that is also in the Law.
LOL!
What do you think is happening...its called being stoned ..in Love!
LOL!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 5:24:49 PM
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DinaS
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
DinaS, I find a certain amount of tunnel vision here. They consider the "constant state of adultery" a deal breaker for salvation, but it seems that they don't concern themselves with other constant states of sin... perhaps gluttony. If someone dies while constantly overeatting does that mean they are in danger of loosing their salvation? If someone has lived in a constant state of idolitry to sports, and has a heart attack watching their third football game of the day does that mean they are in danger of loosing their place in heaven?
I have many counter arguement (stated in the long ago past) but one I have is with this "living in a constant unrepentant state of adultery" notion.
It has to be by grace or none of us would make it to heaven, for who is good enough? None of us.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 5:24:55 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2234
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
While God did NOT ever state that remaining in a second marriage after repentance is sin, he did specifically state that returning to a former spouse after remarriage was sinful i.e Du. 24:1-4. That being the case, I can see absolutely no reason to advocate what the bible specifically prohibits, while trying to make the case for something unsaid.
Do you find anywhere in the NT where the relationship Jesus calls adultery (because one or both are ALREADY joined to another) becomes a lawful marriage in the sight of God?
No, but I don't see anywhere in the NT where Jesus or any other author calls those in a second marriage to divorce. What I do see is the allowances for divorce given by Jesus (Mt. 5 and 19), and Paul (1 Co. 7)
quote:
Did David sin by taking back Michal after she married another man, Benelchi?
David did not divorce Michal.
quote:
Also, are you under the Mosaic covenant?
No, but just as so many of the moral principles of the OT do still apply i.e. lying, steeling, coveting, are all still prohibited, there is no reason to believe that God changed his mind regarding divorce and remarriage. In the Sermon on the mount (Mt. 5) where Jesus was addressing the misinterpretation of many of the OT Laws and how they apply to us who are under the NT, he specifically addressed the issue of adultery as a exception.
However, all these things aside. I think the far bigger issue is that those holding to the theology of divorce and remarriage that you have advocated reject the validity of the faith in Christ of all those who disagree. When a person's theology requires one to reject the validity of the faith of Godly men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, as well as almost every modern pastor, a lot of WARNING flags should be raised telling us that something is very wrong.
Greetings.
quote:
What I do see is the allowances for divorce given by Jesus (Mt. 5 and 19), and Paul (1 Co. 7)
Just for the record...
Actually Paul did not give, an allowence, his word is more of "a witness" to (Mt. 5 and 19) 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 5:26:07 PM
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Jude4
Posts: 146
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jude4
quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
Perhaps I am out of line here, and if so, please forgive me and remove this post. I am not sure what you are allowed to say and what is not allowed. I wonder why you (the board moderators) allow someone to prevent a point of view that is ABSOLUTELY non Biblical and quite frankly, rather evil. Someone repeatedly says straight out that you can only enter the kingdom of God if you are good enough (in this case, not divorced). This is not what a Christian board should be allowing over and over. It could confuse non Christians who might stumble across this, although I cant imagine them reading through the thousands of posts. AGain, I am probably out of line, I just hate to see the gospel presented as a works based salvation when its all by the grace of Jesus Christ. Thank you. To Him alone be the glory, Dina.
To say that creational marriage proponants have claimed that "not divorced" is the deciding factor for weather one enters the kingdom of God or not, is pure misrepresentation. A spouse cannot control weather or not they are divorced as the law stands today. If one is a follower of Christ, you can choose to obey Him in all things, including His commands regarding marriage. You can't, of course, force your spouse to do the same. If a spouse is betrayed by the sin of the other, the only thing you can control is to continue to be faithful to Christ and the marriage, not returning evil for evil. Just so I am clear about what you mean by "works based salvation", could you answer the following.
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Luk 10:25-28)
My question; Do you agree with Jesus affirmation of the lawyers answer, and the promised result ie., "thou shalt live."
He was trying to get the young man to think. Jesus seldom answered directly, He usually made the person think. Do you think the young man was perfect and was saved by the law? Is that what you are implying??? Surely not. We all know what is meant by works based salvation. Its earning your way to heaven by being good, which none of us can do. It has to be by grace. That includes the divorced and the married till death do us part folks.
Why not simply say, that you don't believe, that any person has to love the Lord Jesus, in order to inherit eternal life. Your answer above is only avoiding the question. I didn't imply anything, but simply asked if you agreed with the Lord's response, to the question he was asked. It is clear that you don't, so the text can mean anything you want it to. No amount of evidence from scripture, on the subject of marriage, will have any effect on your opinion, regardless of the strength of the evidence. If you are determined to believe, that one does not have to obey what Jesus commanded, in order to inherit eternal life, then there is no need to reason about marriage, or anything else. If obedience is optional, all debate is irrelevant and futile.
_____________________________
REV 21:7-8
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 6:05:30 PM
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fist.sensei
Posts: 31
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
When we GENUINELY ask for forgiveness, do we then continue in the relationship HE has stated is sin? Is this type of repentance acceptable to the Lord?
According to this logic, a man who was abandoned by a non-believer, remarried and had kids has two options:
1. "Lose his salvation" from living in "constant sin"?
2. Abandon his family, leaving his 2nd spouse to raise the children in a broken home?
So according to you, the 'obedient' and 'Christian' thing to do would be option #2?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 6:13:34 PM
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fist.sensei
Posts: 31
Joined: 2/29/2008
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I'm also curious what investment in this subject some of the repeat posters have.
-What reason do they have to be so intent on this particular 'sin'?
-Why the legalistic and merciless stance?
-Do they have any true theological training? Any anthropological training about Jewish culture 2000 - 3000 years ago? Fluent in Greek or Hebrew to try and retranslate the original meanings of the text?
It amazes me that they are willing to discard the logic and spirituality of theologins like Luther and Calvin, who shaped the very religion as it is today... but count their own interpretations of scripture are flawless.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 6:33:16 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1510
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
That is nothing but a works based salvation point of view. If you are saying we must keep the law to be saved, then you had better take me out and stone me for being divorced. that is also in the Law. Are you under law or grace? Praise Him! Its by grace.
Dina,
Being divorced was never a "stoneable" offense in the OT. Committing adultery, however, was---for both parties involved. When the Lord came and told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more", He was showing us that our sin does not bring us "death" if we choose to "go and sin no more". In other words, it is the Lord's Grace that offers us LIFE, instead of death. Many choose to not "go and sin no more", but instead "go" and then say they have embraced Grace---- and that Grace allows them to continue in what the Lord Himself has called sin (woe to those who call good evil and evil good).
The Lord has called remarriage evil(the sin of adultery) while one has a living spouse, yet many in the Western Church have called remarriage in such cases, "good". Many truly do not understand what loving your neighbor means or what the Lord means when He speaks against defrauding one's brother/sister. Some of us do understand what that means in light of the marriage bond and that is why we are encouraging others to get in His Word and to KNOW the heart of the Lord on this matter.
Concerning professing believers continuing in what the Lord has called sin, what we find in the scriptures is this: "if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live, For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God." (Rom.8:13-14)
"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, jealousies, outburts of wrath, selfish ambitions,.......................I told you in time past, that those who practice such athngs will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:19-21
It is not a "works" salvation to walk in obedience to the Lord as He reveals those areas of sin that need to be forsaken(those who love me, obey me). Obedience through repentance is the EVIDENCE of a true believer---of those who "die" so that they may LIVE eternally with Him. It is a very difficult thing to prove to oneself who has not "died" to self, that they are truly born from above..............this is why Paul tells each professed believer to "test" oneself to SEE if we are in the faith. Jesus makes it quite clear that MANY who think they are in the faith, are not, but are instead transgressors of His laws.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2008 6:43:14 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1228
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DinaS
That is nothing but a works based salvation point of view. If you are saying we must keep the law to be saved, then you had better take me out and stone me for being divorced. that is also in the Law. Are you under law or grace? Praise Him! Its by grace.
No, salvation is being freed from our sin by God's work in us through our faith in Him and making Him our Lord. We know by our fruits if we have been born of Him and are therefore His children, while He says that those who practice sins such as adultery are children of the devil and have never come to know Him:
Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? MAY IT NEVER BE! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
1 John 5:18 WE KNOW that NO ONE who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 2:3-6 BY THIS WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected.]. BY THIS WE KNOW that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Matthew 7:16-23 "YOU WILL KNOW them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
1 John 3:7-10 Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Romans 8:13-17 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
You are correct that the Bible says that we cannot be saved by our works of the Law, but it also says that we are not saved if God's Spirit has not done His Work in us and sanctified our hearts and make us His workmen who practice righteousness and cannot practice sin. He warns repeatedly for us NOT TO BE DECEIVED and think that His grace means we have a license to practice sin, and rather says that salvation is being freed from our enslavement to sin itself. That is why His apostle John told us that no one who is born of Him can practice sin, and that the one who does is a child of the devil. Therefore we know we have received His grace when His Spirit has freed us from sins such as adultery, and that those who choose to live in adultery by His proclamation "NEVER KNEW HIM."
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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