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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 1:07:51 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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Actually He does in Matthew, he says that if we divorce EXCEPT for adultery we are commiting adultery by remarrying. Except means EXCEPT.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 2:13:48 PM
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Isaiah331516
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Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Jesus says this to men, not to women. He says about the divorced woman, that if a man remarries her, he is commiting adultery.
Matthew 5:32
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mark 10:12
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Mark 10:11
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
there is more teaching on this regarding Matthew and the betrothal period...
as a side note:
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 5:20:40 PM
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lovenHim
Posts: 8
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
Actually He does in Matthew, he says that if we divorce EXCEPT for adultery we are commiting adultery by remarrying. Except means EXCEPT.
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
So, in Matthew 5:32 if a woman is innocent of "fornication" and is put away, and she marries another, she is quilty of "adultery" and so is the man who marries her. And in Matthew 19:9 we learn that the man who does just that, divorces a woman who is innocent of "pornia," and he himself remarries another woman, he is guilty of adultery also. So the innocent party can not remarry, and the quilty party can not remarry, and a third party that comes along and remarries is just as quilty as they are. What is it about this that is difficult to understand?
herestorsmysoul, Jesus spoke neither English nor Greek (as far as we know). I humbly suggest you carefully read what Greek words Matthew chose to write to correctly translate what Matthew meant to say Jesus said. Much depends on it.
_____________________________
Praise the Lord, Oh my soul, and all that is within me. Praise His Holy Name!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 6:31:48 PM
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Scottinla57
Posts: 64
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Matthew 5:27, 28 (New American Standard Bible)
27"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
So who of us hasn't committed adultery?
_____________________________
Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion, That I not be full and deny You and say, "Who is the LORD?" Or that I not be in want and steal, And profane the name of my God.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 8:04:26 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1460
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lovenHim
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
Actually He does in Matthew, he says that if we divorce EXCEPT for adultery we are commiting adultery by remarrying. Except means EXCEPT.
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
So, in Matthew 5:32 if a woman is innocent of "fornication" and is put away, and she marries another, she is quilty of "adultery" and so is the man who marries her. And in Matthew 19:9 we learn that the man who does just that, divorces a woman who is innocent of "pornia," and he himself remarries another woman, he is guilty of adultery also. So the innocent party can not remarry, and the quilty party can not remarry, and a third party that comes along and remarries is just as quilty as they are. What is it about this that is difficult to understand?
herestorsmysoul, Jesus spoke neither English nor Greek (as far as we know). I humbly suggest you carefully read what Greek words Matthew chose to write to correctly translate what Matthew meant to say Jesus said. Much depends on it.
The word used is 'pornea' which means many different types of sexual sin including fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality and incest to name but a few.It is used elsewhere in the Bible to describe some of these other sexual sins and was never meant to mean just fornication or just adultery.(which is why Jesus used this particular word).
So for example if one spouse has sex with a person of the same sex that is pornea. if one spouse sexually abuses his children or other children that is pornea. If one spouse has sex with a person of the opposite sex who isnt their spouse that is pornea. It is word which has a much wider meaning than just one sexual sin.Any of these thinsg that I have described make divorce allowable( and thus remarriage).
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 8:46:40 PM
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lovenHim
Posts: 8
Joined: 11/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: lovenHim
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
Actually He does in Matthew, he says that if we divorce EXCEPT for adultery we are commiting adultery by remarrying. Except means EXCEPT.
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
So, in Matthew 5:32 if a woman is innocent of "fornication" and is put away, and she marries another, she is quilty of "adultery" and so is the man who marries her. And in Matthew 19:9 we learn that the man who does just that, divorces a woman who is innocent of "pornia," and he himself remarries another woman, he is guilty of adultery also. So the innocent party can not remarry, and the quilty party can not remarry, and a third party that comes along and remarries is just as quilty as they are. What is it about this that is difficult to understand?
herestorsmysoul, Jesus spoke neither English nor Greek (as far as we know). I humbly suggest you carefully read what Greek words Matthew chose to write to correctly translate what Matthew meant to say Jesus said. Much depends on it.
The word used is 'pornea' which means many different types of sexual sin including fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality and incest to name but a few.It is used elsewhere in the Bible to describe some of these other sexual sins and was never meant to mean just fornication or just adultery.(which is why Jesus used this particular word).
So for example if one spouse has sex with a person of the same sex that is pornea. if one spouse sexually abuses his children or other children that is pornea. If one spouse has sex with a person of the opposite sex who isnt their spouse that is pornea. It is word which has a much wider meaning than just one sexual sin.Any of these thinsg that I have described make divorce allowable( and thus remarriage).
Please look again. You are upside down on what is written here due to your eyes only seeing what you expect to see, mainly because that is all you are looking for. In Matthew 5:32 it is not the woman who is divorced for "pornia" no matter what pornia means, that remarries, who becomes guilty of adultery. No way! It is the woman who is not divorced because of pornia that commits adultery if she remarries after being divorced by her husband. Matthew 5:32 makes it sin for the "innocent" party (woman in this case) to remarry. Matthew 19:9 extends the ruling to the man. Your permission and license, as you see it, is your prohibition and warning, as Matthew saw it.
< Message edited by lovenHim -- 10/31/2009 8:55:30 PM >
_____________________________
Praise the Lord, Oh my soul, and all that is within me. Praise His Holy Name!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 9:44:35 PM
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Anon101
Posts: 181
Joined: 10/21/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lovenHim
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: lovenHim
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
Actually He does in Matthew, he says that if we divorce EXCEPT for adultery we are commiting adultery by remarrying. Except means EXCEPT.
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
So, in Matthew 5:32 if a woman is innocent of "fornication" and is put away, and she marries another, she is quilty of "adultery" and so is the man who marries her. And in Matthew 19:9 we learn that the man who does just that, divorces a woman who is innocent of "pornia," and he himself remarries another woman, he is guilty of adultery also. So the innocent party can not remarry, and the quilty party can not remarry, and a third party that comes along and remarries is just as quilty as they are. What is it about this that is difficult to understand?
herestorsmysoul, Jesus spoke neither English nor Greek (as far as we know). I humbly suggest you carefully read what Greek words Matthew chose to write to correctly translate what Matthew meant to say Jesus said. Much depends on it.
The word used is 'pornea' which means many different types of sexual sin including fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality and incest to name but a few.It is used elsewhere in the Bible to describe some of these other sexual sins and was never meant to mean just fornication or just adultery.(which is why Jesus used this particular word).
So for example if one spouse has sex with a person of the same sex that is pornea. if one spouse sexually abuses his children or other children that is pornea. If one spouse has sex with a person of the opposite sex who isnt their spouse that is pornea. It is word which has a much wider meaning than just one sexual sin.Any of these thinsg that I have described make divorce allowable( and thus remarriage).
Please look again. You are upside down on what is written here due to your eyes only seeing what you expect to see, mainly because that is all you are looking for. In Matthew 5:32 it is not the woman who is divorced for "pornia" no matter what pornia means, that remarries, who becomes guilty of adultery. No way! It is the woman who is not divorced because of pornia that commits adultery if she remarries after being divorced by her husband. Matthew 5:32 makes it sin for the "innocent" party (woman in this case) to remarry. Matthew 19:9 extends the ruling to the man. Your permission and license, as you see it, is your prohibition and warning, as Matthew saw it.
So if your interpretation of scripture is correct and scripture prohibits divorce and remarriage under any circumstance except death, what are you saying to those who are remarried? Are you saying they are committing adultery? Can you understand how that is a heavy yoke of bondage to put around someone's neck? Jesus said in Matthew 11:28 "come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest."
Also, Matthew 5:21-47 has a whole list of "shall nots" that we as believers are guilty of like anger = murder, calling someone a fool = hell. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." None of us are perfect and we are all guilty of murder according to Matthew if we've been angry with our brother, yet the divorce passage is pulled out of the list of sins and put on the top like it is worse than the others. James 2:10 says "If someone obeys all of God's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them" so according to James if we have anger toward our brother (which is sin because murder is a sin) WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL THE LAWS and therefore WE ARE ALL ADULTERERS.
I believe Christ said "you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" because he knows that is impossible and therefore we need Him. Therefore by the grace of God go I everyday....
We are all guilty of breaking all of the laws everyday.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 4:09:01 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1460
Joined: 3/13/2009
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Lorilynn there are hundreds of different thoughts on what God does or doesnt want when it come to divorce and remarriage. I stopped taking any notice of them long before I was even divorced myself. They all think they are right and they all say different things.many think they are qualified to tell God what He should or shouldnt do and I think He just laughs and says I will do what I like despite your views.(and thank Him that He does)
I have heard many learned and spirit filled Christians who have studied this at length ( for years and years)say that for certain reasons we are allowed to remarry after a divrce.
Also The Holy Spirit led me to remarry and as he has done for countless others. Both dh and I are divorced for biblcal reassons and God clearly led us to marry. We have had words from people who dont even know us, that our marriage will be blessed, and God is using us and our marriage in amazing ways. People have come to Christ through our marriage. We are so blessed.
Dont let him or anyone else condemn or confuse you, God doesnt so why let man?
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 11/1/2009 9:43:00 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 10:00:30 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
Actually this is an entirely false argument. 'porneia' is used in Greek to refer to a broad spectrum of sexual sins; it does not refer to just the sexual sins of the unmarried. Additionally, in KJV English 'fornication' also referred to a broad spectrum of sexual sins and not just to the sin of the unmarried. In 'The Book of the Knight of La Tour-Landry [Knt.Tour-L.]" there is a reference to King David's sin with Bathsheba and it says: "Dauid..fell into auowtry and fornicacion with her." Clearly, in the 15th century Englishman understood that "fornication" was a sin that a married man (like David) was capable of committing. The idea that "fornication" refers only to sexual relations of unmarried people is a modern misunderstanding of both the Greek and the KJV English. This kind of misunderstanding clearly demonstrates why it is important to look at versions written in MODERN ENGLISH.
ESV Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
NAS Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
NET Matthew 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery."
NIV Matthew 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
NKJ Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
NLT Matthew 19:9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery-- unless his wife has been unfaithful. "
RSV Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 10:03:05 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lorilynn777
So if your interpretation of scripture is correct and scripture prohibits ... remarriage under any circumstance except death, what are you saying to those who are remarried? Are you saying they are committing adultery?
Yes, I'm saying that ... but God said it first.
NO, that is not exactly what God said, it is a gross misrepresentation of what God said.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 12:15:55 PM
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lovenHim
Posts: 8
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
Actually this is an entirely false argument. 'porneia' is used in Greek to refer to a broad spectrum of sexual sins; it does not refer to just the sexual sins of the unmarried. Additionally, in KJV English 'fornication' also referred to a broad spectrum of sexual sins and not just to the sin of the unmarried. In 'The Book of the Knight of La Tour-Landry [Knt.Tour-L.]" there is a reference to King David's sin with Bathsheba and it says: "Dauid..fell into auowtry and fornicacion with her." Clearly, in the 15th century Englishman understood that "fornication" was a sin that a married man (like David) was capable of committing. The idea that "fornication" refers only to sexual relations of unmarried people is a modern misunderstanding of both the Greek and the KJV English. This kind of misunderstanding clearly demonstrates why it is important to look at versions written in MODERN ENGLISH.
ESV Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
NAS Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
NET Matthew 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery."
NIV Matthew 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
NKJ Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
NLT Matthew 19:9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery-- unless his wife has been unfaithful. "
RSV Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."
You miss the point. Your many words and proliferate multi-language quotes throughout this thread seemingly profound your words and confuse simple issues to the easily impressed, by obscuring simple truths. The woman so described in the discussed passage in Matthew 5:32 that is deemed to be in adultery upon remarriage after divorce was not one who was divorced because of "pornia," whatever it means.
She was innocent of that charge according to the context. That is the point sir. ALL your precedent and subsequent conclusions that her "pornia" justifies or permits divorce and remarriage is entirely and completely without foundation in fact in this scripture, notwithstanding your persistent eloquent assertion to the contrary.
_____________________________
Praise the Lord, Oh my soul, and all that is within me. Praise His Holy Name!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 12:32:26 PM
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northstar
Posts: 189
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Scottinla57
Matthew 5:27, 28 (New American Standard Bible)
27"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
So who of us hasn't committed adultery?
So does that mean it's ok to keep doing it? The idea is that you gain control of your eyes and thoughts and don't do it again.
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 12:35:46 PM
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northstar
Posts: 189
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
I would not tell someone that divorce and remarriage is wrong if they were cheated on, as that isnt what the Bible says. Also I would NEVER tell anyone that they must divorce their second spouse and go back to their first spouse becuase the Bible tells us that IS wrong.
In that case, do you also follow Deuteronomy 19, 20, 21, 22,23, 25 etc etc...or just the pieces that suit?
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 12:59:24 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1460
Joined: 3/13/2009
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Anyone who says that those in godly second marriages where their previous spouse committed serious sexual sin are way off beam and they are condemning those who God does not.Serious stuff.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 1:09:20 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1460
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
I would not tell someone that divorce and remarriage is wrong if they were cheated on, as that isnt what the Bible says. Also I would NEVER tell anyone that they must divorce their second spouse and go back to their first spouse becuase the Bible tells us that IS wrong.
In that case, do you also follow Deuteronomy 19, 20, 21, 22,23, 25 etc etc...or just the pieces that suit?
I think we are tatlking about divorce and remarriage here. The word abomination is pretty strong. NO WHERE does the Bible say that a person who had been divorced should go back to their ex spouse.for any reason.Therefore I cannot understand why anyone should teach that.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 4:18:40 PM
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northstar
Posts: 189
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lorilynn777
So if your interpretation of scripture is correct and scripture prohibits divorce and remarriage under any circumstance except death, what are you saying to those who are remarried? Are you saying they are committing adultery? Can you understand how that is a heavy yoke of bondage to put around someone's neck? Jesus said in Matthew 11:28 "come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest."
Also, Matthew 5:21-47 has a whole list of "shall nots" that we as believers are guilty of like anger = murder, calling someone a fool = hell. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus says "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." None of us are perfect and we are all guilty of murder according to Matthew if we've been angry with our brother, yet the divorce passage is pulled out of the list of sins and put on the top like it is worse than the others. James 2:10 says "If someone obeys all of God's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them" so according to James if we have anger toward our brother (which is sin because murder is a sin) WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL THE LAWS and therefore WE ARE ALL ADULTERERS.
I believe Christ said "you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" because he knows that is impossible and therefore we need Him. Therefore by the grace of God go I everyday....
We are all guilty of breaking all of the laws everyday.
This IS the remarriage after divorce thread. If it was a thread on murder/hatred, then the sin that gets 'pulled out of the list', would be murder/hatred.
When Jesus said, 'come to me all you who are heavy burdened and I will give you rest', I believe that taking the passage in context, he was speaking to the Jewish people who were under the 'yoke' of the Pharisees, who demanded a whole plethora of man made laws to be kept, which they had put in place to put a hedge around God's laws so that a person wouldn't break God's laws by accident. Hence the Rabbis say that one cannot eat meat and dairy together...the reason for that is the law of God which says not to boil a goat in its mother's milk...and the reason you can't eat meat and dairy together is just in case you eat a piece of meat and a piece of cheese which happens to have been made from the milk of the mother of the meat that you are eating, and they might touch each other.
This is what Jesus was referring to - taking away that extra biblical protective 'hedge', and getting back to the proper laws of God, which is a light yoke, and not the heavy yoke that everyone else at the time was demanding.
quote:
I believe Christ said "you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" because he knows that is impossible and therefore we need Him. Therefore by the grace of God go I everyday....
I believe Christ said 'be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect' because He meant it. We need Him for sure, He is the reason we can be reconciled to God. But to say that we are unable to stop sinning is to deny the power of the Creator of the universe. If God is all-powerful, and sends His Spirit to dwell in us, then through our trust in Him and faith in Jesus, we can do anything, and overcome anything. To say that we can't stop sinning is to deny the power of God. We CAN do the right thing and we should be determined to do what is right, in any circumstance, even at the cost of ourselves. Jesus did not die to save us IN our sins, but FROM our sins, and in 1 John it says that anyone who continues to sin is not born of God. We should be improving day by day, minute by minute, and not using the grace of God as a license to sin.
quote:
So if your interpretation of scripture is correct and scripture prohibits divorce and remarriage under any circumstance except death, what are you saying to those who are remarried? Are you saying they are committing adultery? Can you understand how that is a heavy yoke of bondage to put around someone's neck?
Actually it's the Bible which says that, so if you think that's a heavy yoke then you need to take that up with God.
quote:
We are all guilty of breaking all of the laws everyday.
Then we had better put our all into changing that.
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 4:31:57 PM
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northstar
Posts: 189
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
I would not tell someone that divorce and remarriage is wrong if they were cheated on, as that isnt what the Bible says. Also I would NEVER tell anyone that they must divorce their second spouse and go back to their first spouse becuase the Bible tells us that IS wrong.
In that case, do you also follow Deuteronomy 19, 20, 21, 22,23, 25 etc etc...or just the pieces that suit?
I think we are tatlking about divorce and remarriage here. The word abomination is pretty strong. NO WHERE does the Bible say that a person who had been divorced should go back to their ex spouse.for any reason.Therefore I cannot understand why anyone should teach that.
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I know what we are talking about - I just want to clarify that those who use Deut 24 as the reason not to go back, follow the rest of the laws of God too. Do you personally?
Or if you believe that we are under the new covenant, then really you ought to apply it to divorce and remarriage too.
I think the reason that people teach that the person should go back is because in 1 Corinthians it says that if a woman leaves her husband she must remain single or be reconciled...no other option.
Also, the NT says that remarriage is adultery...adultery against who? Against the original spouse. If adultery is sex committed by a married person with someone other than their spouse, and God says that remarriage is adultery, then it follows that God does not see remarriage as an actual marriage, but as two (government sanctioned) people committing adultery against their original spouses, in which case one should stop the adultery and go back to the person that God sees as being one's actual spouse. If God sees a remarriage as being adultery, then He obviously thinks that the person is still in a lifelong covenant with their original spouse, otherwise how could it be called adultery? If divorce means the marriage is dissolved in God's eyes, why does He say that remarriage equals adultery? Both cannot be true.
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Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 5:32:41 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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Northstar,
quote:
I believe Christ said 'be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect' because He meant it. We need Him for sure, He is the reason we can be reconciled to God. But to say that we are unable to stop sinning is to deny the power of the Creator of the universe. If God is all-powerful, and sends His Spirit to dwell in us, then through our trust in Him and faith in Jesus, we can do anything, and overcome anything. To say that we can't stop sinning is to deny the power of God. We CAN do the right thing and we should be determined to do what is right, in any circumstance, even at the cost of ourselves. Jesus did not die to save us IN our sins, but FROM our sins, and in 1 John it says that anyone who continues to sin is not born of God. We should be improving day by day, minute by minute, and not using the grace of God as a license to sin.
I want to invite you to come post in my thread concerning this topic. All I can say is AMEN! God bless you.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 6:48:56 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lovenHim
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Actually, He doesn't, and adultery is not what is designated "except for." The word Matthew used to indicate what Jesus meant to be an exception for is pornia which is properly rendered "fornication" in KJV English, not mochia which is always rendered "adultery." The presence of both words within this same narrow context is countradistinctive to adultery being the meaning for both. The most likely intended meaning was reference to familiar cases where a bethrothed bride is guilty of pre-martial sex (think Mary and Joseph).
Actually this is an entirely false argument. 'porneia' is used in Greek to refer to a broad spectrum of sexual sins; it does not refer to just the sexual sins of the unmarried. Additionally, in KJV English 'fornication' also referred to a broad spectrum of sexual sins and not just to the sin of the unmarried. In 'The Book of the Knight of La Tour-Landry [Knt.Tour-L.]" there is a reference to King David's sin with Bathsheba and it says: "Dauid..fell into auowtry and fornicacion with her." Clearly, in the 15th century Englishman understood that "fornication" was a sin that a married man (like David) was capable of committing. The idea that "fornication" refers only to sexual relations of unmarried people is a modern misunderstanding of both the Greek and the KJV English. This kind of misunderstanding clearly demonstrates why it is important to look at versions written in MODERN ENGLISH.
ESV Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
NAS Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
NET Matthew 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery."
NIV Matthew 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
NKJ Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
NLT Matthew 19:9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery-- unless his wife has been unfaithful. "
RSV Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."
You miss the point. Your many words and proliferate multi-language quotes throughout this thread seemingly profound your words and confuse simple issues to the easily impressed, by obscuring simple truths.
This is a great example of trying to kick the dirt up in order to obscure the fact that the question raised is one for which you have no answer. In debate they call this a "strawman" and it is considered a dishonest debate tactic. Wikipedia defines a strawman as "a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic."
quote:
The woman so described in the discussed passage in Matthew 5:32 that is deemed to be in adultery upon remarriage after divorce was not one who was divorced because of "pornia," whatever it means.
She was innocent of that charge according to the context. That is the point sir.
No, that is not the point sir. The majority of Christian scholars believe that Jesus was demonstrating that divorce for unbiblical reasons does not allow a person to remarry and those who do remarry in ONLY that circumstance would be committing an act of adultery. However, even in that circumstance that act of adultery would break the marriage covenant (according to the exception that Jesus made in Mt. 5 and 19) and subsequently free the innocent spouse to remarry because there would have then been an act of 'porniea'. Additionally, any remarriage would mean that restoration to an original spouse would itself be a sinful act. Duet. 24:1-4; not only would the innocent spouse be free from the previous marriage, but they would also be prohibited by Scripture from ever returning to their former spouse.
Here are a few of the FALSE doctrines taught by some modern (cultish) churches that are NEVER taught in Scripture:
Lie 1: All remarriages are continuous adultery.
Lie 2: Those who have remarried will go to hell unless they divorce before they die or their spouse dies first.
Lie 3: A second marriage covenant is invalid before God.
Lie 4: Divorce is a means or sign of repentance.
quote:
ALL your precedent and subsequent conclusions that her "pornia" justifies or permits divorce and remarriage is entirely and completely without foundation in fact in this scripture, notwithstanding your persistent eloquent assertion to the contrary.
Realize that the "strawman" you raised in the beginning of your post has not obscured the fact that you have not even attempted to address the objections that I raised about your invalid interpretation of "porniea" or your invalid interpretation of the KJV's use of "fornication;" I even provided a reference quote from 15th Century English literature that demonstrates that your interpretation of the KJV's use of "fornication" is invalid. Unless you can provide clear objective reasons that demonstrate that both the KJV translators and the translators of EVERY modern version of the bible have misunderstood the use of "porniea" in first century Greek, your entire argument fails and no amount of kicking up the dust will obscure that fact.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/1/2009 7:39:14 PM >
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 6:53:06 PM
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Anon101
Posts: 181
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
When Jesus said, 'come to me all you who are heavy burdened and I will give you rest', I believe that taking the passage in context, he was speaking to the Jewish people who were under the 'yoke' of the Pharisees, who demanded a whole plethora of man made laws to be kept, which they had put in place to put a hedge around God's laws so that a person wouldn't break God's laws by accident. Hence the Rabbis say that one cannot eat meat and dairy together...the reason for that is the law of God which says not to boil a goat in its mother's milk...and the reason you can't eat meat and dairy together is just in case you eat a piece of meat and a piece of cheese which happens to have been made from the milk of the mother of the meat that you are eating, and they might touch each other.
This is what Jesus was referring to - taking away that extra biblical protective 'hedge', and getting back to the proper laws of God, which is a light yoke, and not the heavy yoke that everyone else at the time was demanding.
To infer that a widely used scripture is not applicable today because "technically" it was the Pharisees He was speaking to is splitting hairs in order to make your point. Pastors use plenty of passages that Christ spoke to a specific audience, but His words are applicable to us (a different audience) today. Regarding the use of the 'come to me..." passage and the Pharisees, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for teaching the laws so tightly and without mercy he actually called them "whitewashed tombs" because on the outside they seemed perfect and sinless but inside, their hearts were full of sin. He called their teaching "heavy loads," which they tied up and put on men's shoulders thereby unduly burdening them. Those who accepted such the Pharisee's interpretation or unappeasable laws were considered to be under the yoke of the Pharisee’s teaching and thereby their disciples. Those who try to impose such a yoke are said to "test God" (Acts 15:10). Therefore Jesus invites all people who labor under the yoke of unappeasable rules and regulations to come to him so he can give them two things: rest and a new yoke—his way of discipleship—which is easy and light because the rest he provides is the supernatural, divine rest of intimacy with him that refreshes and strengthens those who like Jesus approach God with meek and humble hearts. Jesus' words "I will give you rest" echo the words "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest" in Exodus 33:14.
quote:
I believe Christ said 'be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect' because He meant it.
We can and should daily try to do the right thing. Our goal should always be to be more like Christ. I never insinuated anything else. But I disagree that Christ, knowing he was going to die on the cross for our sins because we can't and never will be perfect would turn around and tell people he expects them "to be perfect" in adherence to every law. This "be perfect" statement was in the context of the previous scriptures that dealt with love. I do not believe that Christ was telling us that God expects perfection from us because if we could be perfect, Christ died needlessly. We can't get into heaven even if we were able to keep every law and commandment. That is works. No amount of works is going to get you into heaven, so Christ saying "be perfect" is not only impossible, it will not get you into heaven. Only accepting Christ as your savior and being justified by and because of Christ's sacrificial death gets you into heaven, not any amount of trying to 'be perfect'. Christ knew that we can't be perfect the passage is meant to show us that we need HIM and he is the ONLY way, ONLY truth, and the only way we will go to heaven. Many, many Godly pastors and scholars have taught on this subject.
quote:
Actually it's the Bible which says that, if you think that's a heavy yoke then you need to take that up with God.
Yes, this idea of being in a "state" of perpetual sin because you remarry after a divorce is a horrible yoke to put around someone's neck. Once you are divorced and you remarry and you've asked for forgiveness, you are forgiven.
I'm not going to change your mind on the "exception clause" in Matthew so I'm not even going to try. The porneia vs. moicheia has been debated by both sides ad nauseum. I will just say that the thing God hates is divorce, not marriage. God believes in marriage, even, the marriage of those who have been divorced. It is wrong to ship divorced people to the island of celibacy so they can spend the rest of there years burning w/lust (Paul says it is better to marry than to burn w/lust). Instead, we should rejoice when people get married, the past is the past and if they are reconciled w/God, the sin (if it even was a sin [exception clause], is forgiven. God forgives, so why should we hold a past divorce against people or not forgive? As far as I know there is only ONE unforgivable sin. I am not telling people "go ahead and sin, God forgives", so please don't respond with that. As Christians we have a renewed heart and we are to work out our salvation everyday and let the Holy Spirit guide our hearts and minds.
< Message edited by Lorilynn777 -- 11/1/2009 11:01:11 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 7:09:58 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
I know what we are talking about - I just want to clarify that those who use Deut 24 as the reason not to go back, follow the rest of the laws of God too. Do you personally?
Or if you believe that we are under the new covenant, then really you ought to apply it to divorce and remarriage too.
Actually, it is pretty clear, with a little bit of study, that the question being debated by Jesus and the Pharisees in Mt. 19 was the interpretation of Duet. 24:1-4; the first century debates about how this passage was interpreted by Hillel and Shammai are well documented, and it is clear that the pharisees that confronted Jesus were presenting the interpretation of Hillel. Jesus corrected the misinterpretation of 'ervat devar'/'nakedness of a thing' that had been proposed by Hillel, but he showed NO disagreement with the interpretation of the remaining part of that passage.
quote:
I think the reason that people teach that the person should go back is because in 1 Corinthians it says that if a woman leaves her husband she must remain single or be reconciled...no other option.
When their is NO issue of infidelity, no intervening remarriage, etc..., this is a valid interpretation; however, to apply this to cases where there has been an intervening marriage is to go against Scripture.
quote:
Also, the NT says that remarriage is adultery...adultery against who? Against the original spouse. If adultery is sex committed by a married person with someone other than their spouse, and God says that remarriage is adultery, then it follows that God does not see remarriage as an actual marriage, but as two (government sanctioned) people committing adultery against their original spouses, in which case one should stop the adultery and go back to the person that God sees as being one's actual spouse. If God sees a remarriage as being adultery, then He obviously thinks that the person is still in a lifelong covenant with their original spouse, otherwise how could it be called adultery? If divorce means the marriage is dissolved in God's eyes, why does He say that remarriage equals adultery? Both cannot be true.
This is true ONLY when there has been no biblical grounds for the divorce in the first place. Jesus did clearly state that there is an exception to this rule in both Mt. 5 and 19.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 12:13:27 AM
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Anon101
Posts: 181
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
People say that God sees the second set of vows as binding, and that a person should stay in their current marriage, but they forget that God sees their first set of vows as binding, so they mustn't leave their first marriage in the first place. And if they do, then Paul says in 1 Corinthians to stay single or be reconciled...
So if second marriages are not binding or invalid, why did Jesus Christ say to the woman at the well "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband"? Obviously, Jesus refers to marriage #2, #3, #4, #5 as husbands so he acknowledges her other marriages/husbands. If he didn't He would have said "you have had one husband and six adulterous relationships (because the current relationship she is in is not a marital relationship). He also tells her to "go and sin no more". If the only way for her to stay out of a state of perpetual adultery is to reconcile with her husband(s). Christ acknowledged them as "husbands" not me. Then Christ goes on to say "go and sin no more". I believe he was referring to her present state when he said go and sin no more, convicting her of her current situation (she has a man, but not a husband). He never says go and be reconciled to husband #1, or any of the other husbands she had.
I'm strictly writing to those with the school of thought that Jesus doesn't recognize, acknowledge, validate, any marriage other than the first marriage.
I am in no way telling people to get divorced or lessening the value God puts on marriage, I'm am simply saying that those of you telling people that their second marriages are invalid, take notice that Christ himself acknowledges remarriage and calls them all equally "husbands" and this is a woman he is speaking to. I underline woman because there are a few people in here that say that men can remarry, but women cannot.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 5:46:33 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1460
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
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Lorilynn
Many who teach that Jesus only recognises our first marriages must hate that passage from the story of the women at the well. I have quoted that passage several times but it is always ignored or twisted when really, what is there in that that can be misunderstood? Jesus recognised ALL of her marriages as being marriages and ALL of her husbands as being husbands, NOT just the first one. This is why it ic clear that a divorce does end a marriage and that remarrying does mean that you have a new husband or wife and thus are not committing adultery.
Divorce and remarriage is the most misunderstood and misused subject in the church it seems to me, there are about 20 different schools of thought and everyone thinks that have the truth.All they have to do is to read the story of this women and it makes it a clear.I loves Gods simplicity.
God doesnt wnat any of his children ot have to go through the terrible pain if a divorce but if they have to then they are no longer married and if God blesses them with another spouse they can remary wihtout committing adultery.
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