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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 4:16:40 PM
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firefly31784
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I think that although it is not mentioned in the Bible. Physical abuse is definately an acceptable reason to get a divorce.
I think divorce is a major problem among the christian community. We need to work hard to make divorced people feel accepted. It is a shame many churched do not outreach to these people.
I say that as a married individual
< Message edited by firefly31784 -- 5/9/2008 4:23:31 PM >
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 4:19:02 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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www.divorcehope.com
good site on divorce , excellent Biblical advice
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 4:27:00 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
Posts: 131
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
How can one remain faithful to the Lord and still give the other person the divorce that they want?
One doesn't have to sign the papers. If your spouse is insistent on getting a divorce, then let them..............and trust the Lord with handling your erring spouse. Only HE can really change someones heart that is bent on sin. You can remain faithful by honoring the vows you took irregardless if your spouse presently does.
But one can only get divorced if both parties sign the paperwork. At least, that's what I'm told.
you were told wrong. in some states only one can sign the papers. and its done.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 2:36:59 PM
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futuremartyr
Posts: 138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: firefly31784
I think that although it is not mentioned in the Bible. Physical abuse is definately an acceptable reason to get a divorce.
I think divorce is a major problem among the christian community. We need to work hard to make divorced people feel accepted. It is a shame many churched do not outreach to these people.
I say that as a married individual
Well the fact that you think it is a good reason doesn't mean it is acceptable. If there is physical abuse then you bring the elders of the church in on it and the law. It's not about making divorce people feel accepted, it's about what God wants. If one repents of sin that is different, if one had no choice and their unbelieving spouse left that is different.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 3:30:47 PM
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futuremartyr
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the site tells you marriage is conditional. marriage in the bible is compared to the covenant of Christ and His bride, is that covnant conditional? Do we have to do something to obtain slavation? no.. the word biblical implies it's advice from the bible, that site has twisted scriptue to make divorce ok for almost any reason.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 7:38:25 PM
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hnt
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quote:
Do we have to do something to obtain slavation? no..
Huh? What are you saying?
You are saying everyone gets salvation, and they have to do nothing to obtain it?
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 7:59:15 PM
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hnt
Posts: 543
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quote:
ORIGINAL: firefly31784
I think that although it is not mentioned in the Bible. Physical abuse is definately an acceptable reason to get a divorce.
I think divorce is a major problem among the christian community. We need to work hard to make divorced people feel accepted. It is a shame many churched do not outreach to these people.
I say that as a married individual
Actually the bible does speak of domestic violence, and it speaks of emotional and verbal abuse as well.
If you read the chapter with the famous, "God Hates Divorce' portion not to many people have actually read the chapter itself it seems otherwise they would notice the comma and how the sentence continues!  It could be they don't remember it! It speaks of attitude and behavior of men that treated their wifes in extremely sinful ways, and basically told the men he wasn't going to accept their prayers, offerings, etc due to it!
James 3 speaks of the power and danger of the tongue. The church it seems at times tends to mininize this at times. Its NOT as serious as the 'hitting' portion, and yet if you read that chapter it doesn't seem to me like God agrees with that stand. 
There are plenty of places within the bible that speaks of all kinds of forms of abuse. The spirit of God if you can feel it as you read the word should clue people in that abuse of any kind should never be tolerated.
If abuse of any kind is happening separation needs to happen. The icky part at times is that there are times in which legal separation - and at times divorce - has to happen out of plain protection against the spouse that is abusing. Recently, I read a story of a woman in FL where her husband had abandon them after he beat his children and she was left penniless. She didn't want a divorce, but state resources couldn't be handed to her until a legal separation was given. Her church didn't have the resources to give to her. Another story in another state after the legal separation he was trying to clean their clocks finanically, and the only way to stop this was to divorce him. It sounded to me like he was mad he couldn't live at their home, so he figured he would ruin them so neither he or she (or the children) could have it either. He was also physically threatening them - stalking them, etc and the orders of protection and arms of the law only would go so far to help them in this safely realm as well. I don't understand the limited timelines on orders of protection at times if married - that makes no logical sense to me. they wouldn't stop the finanical portion, because they filing of divorce had not happened yet. 
God does take those circumstances into account, and I realize not everyone would agree. That's fine with me. They have a right to their opinion.
_____________________________
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:49:07 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
If you read the chapter with the famous, "God Hates Divorce' portion not to many people have actually read the chapter itself it seems otherwise they would notice the comma and how the sentence continues! It could be they don't remember it! It speaks of attitude and behavior of men that treated their wifes in extremely sinful ways, and basically told the men he wasn't going to accept their prayers, offerings, etc due to it!
That passage says that the divorce was the extremely sinful thing he did to his wife, and also says that the two are still husband and wife and bound by covenant, even after the "divorce":
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
The text does not say that the divorce was a legitimate response to treacherous treatment, but rather that the divorce itself was the treacherous treatment. It also says that they are still husband and wife and companions by covenant even after he supposedly divorced her, so clearly man cannot separate what God has joined:
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
SealedEternal
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:17:54 PM
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NotDoneYet
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To this day I cannot believe there are people who STILL profess "no divorce" even in the face of horrendous abuse.
I would ask you to go to Ephesians 5...the great passage about marriage that starts "Wives submit to your husbands..." The rest of that passage gives the husbands the requirements to LOVE their wives as Christ loves the church...to treat the wife as they would treat their own body. SO...once again I ask...
Is marriage (licence) a legal contract, binding as long as both parties continue to hold up their ends of the contract or is it a licence to dominate another knowing that divorce is not "sanctioned"?
If a husband is beating his wife, or messing around on her, he is NOT treating his wife as he would treat himself...nor is he loving his wife as Christ loves the church. The contract is BROKEN. It's over.
If a wife is messing around, using drugs, etc, then again, the contract is BROKEN.
I hope some of you who go around touting "no divorce" end up at the funeral of the battered woman. Look into her children's eyes and tell them why you counseled her to stay.
I've lived that...and sin or no sin...I got a divorce...because I didn't want to be dead. My children and I paid the price of living in that abusive situation...
And...can't sins be forgiven? Or is the divorced Christian doomed to second class status?
_____________________________
Remember, normal is just a setting on the dryer!
Ranting and raving: diaryofaravingmom.blogspot.com
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 11:02:09 PM
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hnt
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quote:
The text does not say that the divorce was a legitimate response to treacherous treatment, but rather that the divorce itself was the treacherous treatment.
Sealed please don't put words in my mouth! I didn't say anything about it being a legitimate response to anything.
The treacherous treatment was the divorce? Ahem. I think there was a bit more to it than that. Divorce was hardly the only 'treacheous' treatment! He speaks of their whole attitude - their way of life - their way of thinking...NOT just the divorce! They act ugly out of the church, and then come into the church and play all holier than thou! What?? You don't think he was addressing that as well?
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h
Emotional abuse and Faith
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 11:16:15 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 973
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
quote:
The text does not say that the divorce was a legitimate response to treacherous treatment, but rather that the divorce itself was the treacherous treatment.
Sealed please don't put words in my mouth! I didn't say anything about it being a legitimate response to anything.
The treacherous treatment was the divorce? Ahem.
That's what the text says.
quote:
I think there was a bit more to it than that.
What in the text substantiates this claim?
quote:
Divorce was hardly the only 'treacheous' treatment!
I don't see anything else mentioned.
quote:
He speaks of their whole attitude - their way of life - their way of thinking...NOT just the divorce! They act ugly out of the church, and then come into the church and play all holier than thou! What?? You don't think he was addressing that as well?
All I see in this passage is God condemning this man for treacherously abandoning his wife. If there is something more here then please show me where.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/11/2008 11:56:32 AM
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hnt
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Seal:
Maybe you should re-read your text there! It talks about behavior as well. If all you see is divorce - you need to re-read the passage!
Malachi 2:7-17 GW "A priest's lips should preserve knowledge. Then, because he is the messenger for the LORD of Armies, people will seek instruction from his mouth. (8) "But you have turned from the correct path and caused many to stumble over my teachings. You have corrupted the promise made to Levi," says the LORD of Armies.
There is first ONE! LOL Don't worry there is MORE!
(9) "So I have made you disgusting, and I have humiliated you in front of all the people, because you have not followed my ways. You have been unfair when applying my teachings." (10) Don't all of us have the same father? Hasn't the same God created us? Why are we unfaithful to each other? And why do we dishonor the promise given to our ancestors?
(11) Judah has been unfaithful! A disgusting thing has been done in Israel and Jerusalem. Judah has dishonored the holy place that the LORD loves and has married a woman who worships a foreign god.
NOTICE the "AND" - generally AND mean in addition!
(12) May the LORD exclude anyone who does this, whoever he may be. May he exclude them from Jacob's tents and from bringing offerings to the LORD of Armies. (13) Here is another thing you do:
Notice "HERE IS ANOTHER THING YOU DO" - Generally mean in addition as well!
You cover the LORD'S altar with tears. You moan and groan because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them from you. (14) But you ask, "Why aren't our offerings accepted?" It is because the LORD is a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been unfaithful. Yet, she is your companion, the wife of your marriage vows. (15) Didn't God make you one? Your flesh and spirit belong to him. And what does the same God look for but godly descendants? So be careful not to be unfaithful to the wife of your youth. (16) "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel. "I hate the person who covers himself with violence," says the LORD of Armies. "Be careful not to be unfaithful." (17) You have tried the patience of the LORD with your words. But you ask, "How have we tried his patience?" When you say, "Everyone who does evil is considered good by the LORD. He is pleased with them," or "Where is the God of justice?"
Notice he hates he 2 things! NOT one! TWO!
I never said he didn't speak of divorce - I said he spoke of other things!
There is your
quote:
What in the text substantiates this claim?
since that was the chapter I was speaking of!
quote:
I don't see anything else mentioned.
I suggest you go back and reread it then! God is speaking of more than divorce in that chapter.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 11:22:07 AM
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TATERBUGLETTE
Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
To this day I cannot believe there are people who STILL profess "no divorce" even in the face of horrendous abuse.
I would ask you to go to Ephesians 5...the great passage about marriage that starts "Wives submit to your husbands..." The rest of that passage gives the husbands the requirements to LOVE their wives as Christ loves the church...to treat the wife as they would treat their own body. SO...once again I ask...
Is marriage (licence) a legal contract, binding as long as both parties continue to hold up their ends of the contract or is it a licence to dominate another knowing that divorce is not "sanctioned"?
If a husband is beating his wife, or messing around on her, he is NOT treating his wife as he would treat himself...nor is he loving his wife as Christ loves the church. The contract is BROKEN. It's over.
If a wife is messing around, using drugs, etc, then again, the contract is BROKEN.
I hope some of you who go around touting "no divorce" end up at the funeral of the battered woman. Look into her children's eyes and tell them why you counseled her to stay.
I've lived that...and sin or no sin...I got a divorce...because I didn't want to be dead. My children and I paid the price of living in that abusive situation...
And...can't sins be forgiven? Or is the divorced Christian doomed to second class status?
we are not second class citizens...we are daughters of the King! sins forgiven!!! Praise Him. Ignore the judgement (and twisting of scripture) by those who dont know the suffering. I suggest to them they visit the local battered womens shelter and see first hand what can happen. Really LOOK into the eyes of a battered woman and her traumatized children. See with the eyes of Jesus.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 6:53:02 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1639
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
we are not second class citizens...we are daughters of the King! sins forgiven!!! Praise Him. Ignore the judgement (and twisting of scripture) by those who dont know the suffering. I suggest to them they visit the local battered womens shelter and see first hand what can happen. Really LOOK into the eyes of a battered woman and her traumatized children. See with the eyes of Jesus.
I know MANY who are divorced and they are far from second class citizens. Yet, these same divorcees believe in the permanency of marriage. They most certainly are not speaking the same message of the destruction of God-joined marriages that many are today. These same divorcees believe the scriptures teach that divorce between those couples GOD joined together is NOT good---no matter the situation. Paul DID give an "out"(hopefully temporary)----"if a woman departs she is to remain unmarried OR be reconciled to her husband". If a woman IS being abused, the Lord DOES understand, but He does NOT want or give permission for what HE joined together to be put away----permanently. That is the flesh, not God. God desires the hardhearted (the offender as well as the offended---whatever the case may be) to repent/and or forgive.............and then for restoration of the family HE joined together to occur. Blessings.......
< Message edited by lastblast -- 5/12/2008 6:59:33 PM >
_____________________________
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 8:37:59 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
Again...as the previous poster suggested...go to a battered woman's shelter and tell THEM about "praying for restoration"...to be restored to their abusers, who don't change...then go to these women's funerals, look into their children's eyes, as their terror grows, knowing they will never, ever forget that daddy killed mommy. The sons learn this is proper behavior, the daughters learn that it's perfectly acceptable to get beaten....
And again, I know divorced abused persons who do NOT give up...........who DO believe in I Cor. 13 and LIVE it out, even if they have to live separately from the one God joined them to while the Lord is doing a work---no matter how long that "work" takes.
We all have choices to forgive and pray for one another or not to forgive and instead "move on". I think many will be sad on the day they stand before the Lord when they realize they COULD have changed circumstances through faithful, diligent prayer. Many could have ended up seeing their families healed/whole instead of broken and fragmented. Many could have seen their abusive spouses come to a place of utter brokenness and newness of life in Christ..........but they refuse to wait for that day...........they refuse to believe God could do such a thing..........
I've heard of such cases where one refused to forgive and stand in faith for their abusive partner only to see them later come to repentance AFTER they replaced them with another partner.
Concerning the ones who end up dead...........look up the stats, most of those women either end up dead during or after a divorce Or they are killed by BOYFRIENDS.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:29:38 PM
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hnt
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quote:
Concerning the ones who end up dead...........look up the stats, most of those women either end up dead during or after a divorce Or they are killed by BOYFRIENDS.
Actually the stats say that most woman get killed when attempting to leave the relationship. The stats don't go into much about how many of them are going thru the divorce.
They say the most dangerous time for a women within an abusive relationship is when she attempts to escape the danger, and shortly after she escapes. Generally, when they leave or just leave...lol they aren't filing anything but a restraining order!
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:37:27 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
if the CHURCHES would do more...maybe there'd be less of them. Why can't the churches teach the men that beating on the wife just isn't a good idea. Why don't the churches assist in the arrest and incarceration of these men? Most churches turn a blind eye. I was told to go home, beg my husband's forgiveness and attempt to control my children so they wouldn't "upset" my husband.
You are right, the churches, or who we call the supposed "church" are NOT doing what they should be doing. There is no/little accountability, towards wives who are disobedient to the Lord in how they are ministering to their husbands and families as well as towards husbands who are FAR from loving their wives like Christ loves the Church. Because early problems are not being dealt with in a loving/biblical manner, the churches then throw up their hands and ignore EVERYTHING unbiblical going on in families---including the prevaling mindset today that marriage is disposable and people are disposable due to sin. We are not rightly representing Jesus all around----in dealing with the hurt ones nor in dealing with the offender who needs to come to repentance/healing. 
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:42:59 PM
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hnt
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The most dangerous time for a woman who is being abused is when she tries to leave - States: United States Department of Justice, National Crime Victim Survey
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:46:00 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
The most dangerous time for a woman who is being abused is when she tries to leave - States: United States Department of Justice, National Crime Victim Survey
Yes, I just read that.............especially when abuse has been very recent.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:52:01 PM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
if the CHURCHES would do more...maybe there'd be less of them. Why can't the churches teach the men that beating on the wife just isn't a good idea. Why don't the churches assist in the arrest and incarceration of these men? Most churches turn a blind eye. I was told to go home, beg my husband's forgiveness and attempt to control my children so they wouldn't "upset" my husband.
You are right, the churches, or who we call the supposed "church" are NOT doing what they should be doing. There is no/little accountability, towards wives who are disobedient to the Lord in how they are ministering to their husbands and families as well as towards husbands who are FAR from loving their wives like Christ loves the Church. Because early problems are not being dealt with in a loving/biblical manner, the churches then throw up their hands and ignore EVERYTHING unbiblical going on in families---including the prevaling mindset today that marriage is disposable and people are disposable due to sin. We are not rightly representing Jesus all around----in dealing with the hurt ones nor in dealing with the offender who needs to come to repentance/healing.
I'm sure some churches due deal with things as you mention. Most of the time its ignornace of the dynamics. Its fear as well.
Churches place their heads in the sand much like the secular world when it comes to this issue, and sadly many others.
Stats also state that women within the faith realm tend to stay much longer, and are abused MUCH longer due to pressures of their places of worship. If they are staying longer - it doesn't sound like they are pressuring 'disposable' relationships to me! They just don't know how to handle them. Education is key, and yet they refuse in most cases.
The secular world most of the time does more - and yet they are far from perfect - than the faith realm in alot of ways when it comes to this. I personally was shocked when I figured this out, and actually refused to believe it for a long time. To much proof to deny it tho. Sadly.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 10:27:20 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
Why is it you mentioned the women "who are disobedient" first? Is it the woman's fault that the man uses her as a punching bag? Yes, women are to "submit"...to whatever the man wants. If he beats her, she's told she needs to be more submissive...if he beats their children, she is told that she needs to be the "Proverbs 31 woman"...
I didn't put the woman first for any particular reason, but I understand why you may focus on that. I see blame to go around in many marital relationships today---many women are warped in their thinking due to woman's lib, which has destroyed the family unit. A FEW good things came out of that, but only a FEW. When husbands started being devalued, men started devaluing their wives in turn, but that's another whole issue in itself. As far as abuse, I personally do not know anyone who believes in lifelong marriage and is opposed to divorce in those marriages that God joined together, who would counsel a woman to STAY in the same home and submit to physical abuse.
quote:
I'm not in favor of divorce "just because". But...in cases of physical, mental, emotional and sexual abuse...it's time...and adultery is a deal breaker...
Regarding "restoration"...leopards don't change their spots, and abusers don't change. They think that they are the innocent. I've heard over and over "She made me do it" or "I had to 'discipline' her". Give me a break here! Those are the most ridiculous reasons I've ever heard. True, there may be few who truly come to see the error of their ways, but the vast majority will continue to abuse.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe the "leopards don't change their spots".............if that is true, then NOONE has a chance at experiencing the NEW BIRTH in Christ, because we ALL are sinners----
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I've been there, done that...when I was gone, he turned his wrath on the 2 children I had to leave behind because I was just a "stepmom". One's now an alcoholic and the other is trying to make her way as a single mommy to a beautiful little girl.
If you married a divorced man (whose 1st wife was still living), I wouldn't have issue with your divorce anyways---under any circumstances. The fact that the children had to stay and suffer is heartbreaking, but the reality is that MANY children suffer and make very bad life choices due to ABSENT, neglectful natural parents too, so abuse is not the only thing that cause many children a lifetime of hurts.
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So...until you've walked in the battered woman's shoes...don't even presume to judge.
I was abused, but thankfully I did not marry the one who abused me. However, whether I was abused or not does not change the Word of God. That is the problem many times. Lots of Christians today make decisions based upon their circumstances or feelings and do not seek God to see what HE says/desires of them.
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Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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