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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 5:48:45 PM
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DerWeg
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Ohh nevermind I get it. You were giving me the Greek definition of 'depart'. My bad, sorry.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 5:53:09 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
Well Corinthians says pretty bluntly that a man must not put away his wife, and a wife must not leave her husband.
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
So how do we make this compatible with what Jesus says in Matthew? That if a man remarries after divorcing, he commits adultery, unless his wife has already committed adultery. Maybe he's not saying it's OKAY for the husband to divorce her for adultery. It sounds like he's simply saying if he does, and he remarries, he's not committing adultery, because she has already done so in the first place.
Maybe divorce for adultery is not acceptable after all? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
Hi, when Jesus is talking to the Pharasees and Scribes in Matt 19:9 this is not the gospel of Grace but concerning the intpretation of the Law of Moses correctly. According to sexual law if a man did put away his wife and she did commit sexual immorality in the marriage, he would not be committing adultery by marrying another. But Jesus has a new command for us Christians... for the Law of Moses was given because the "hardness" of a man's heart. But we christians have been given the ability to forgive our spouses with extraordiary, godly forgiveness. So, as much as it is in the Chritians power we are not to divorce our spouses for any reason. for only the permission of divorce was given because of the weakness of the man's heart. WE have a new heart in Christ Jesus. God did not divorce adulterous Judah in Jer 3:1-9 but because she returned God stayed married to her. God divorced Israel because although she too commited adultery in the marriage she was unwilling to continue in the covenant of God Jer 31:31-33 and therefore God "allowed" her to go... but God will remarry her once she repents and acknowledges her sin Jer 3:12-14 and 'Returns' Jer 3:1 (at the end). Christians are not to divorce their spouses.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 5:58:50 PM
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DerWeg
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I would almost agree completely, but what about where it talks about letting the unbelieving spouse depart, if he or she wishes to. Why would God let them depart (which according to benelchi's post means divorce)....if divorce is entirely unacceptable? He said no brother or sister was in bondage if their unbelieving spouse wanted to leave them.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 6:17:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
Well Corinthians says pretty bluntly that a man must not put away his wife, and a wife must not leave her husband.
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
So how do we make this compatible with what Jesus says in Matthew? That if a man remarries after divorcing, he commits adultery, unless his wife has already committed adultery. Maybe he's not saying it's OKAY for the husband to divorce her for adultery. It sounds like he's simply saying if he does, and he remarries, he's not committing adultery, because she has already done so in the first place.
Maybe divorce for adultery is not acceptable after all? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
Hi, when Jesus is talking to the Pharasees and Scribes in Matt 19:9 this is not the gospel of Grace but concerning the intpretation of the Law of Moses correctly. According to sexual law if a man did put away his wife and she did commit sexual immorality in the marriage, he would not be committing adultery by marrying another. But Jesus has a new command for us Christians... for the Law of Moses was given because the "hardness" of a man's heart. But we christians have been given the ability to forgive our spouses with extraordiary, godly forgiveness. So, as much as it is in the Chritians power we are not to divorce our spouses for any reason. for only the permission of divorce was given because of the weakness of the man's heart. WE have a new heart in Christ Jesus. God did not divorce adulterous Judah in Jer 3:1-9 but because she returned God stayed married to her. God divorced Israel because although she too commited adultery in the marriage she was unwilling to continue in the covenant of God Jer 31:31-33 and therefore God "allowed" her to go... but God will remarry her once she repents and acknowledges her sin Jer 3:12-14 and 'Returns' Jer 3:1 (at the end). Christians are not to divorce their spouses.
The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus clearly contrasts what he has said here to their understanding of the OT Law as interpreted by Hillel. The influence of Hillel can be seen in the questions the Pharisees asked (Mt. 19.3) i.e. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?" Jesus' answer contrasts their understanding of Due. 24:1-4 with one that truly reflects the heart of God i.e (Mt. 19.8-9) i.e. "Moses said ... But I say..." Because of the structure of this passage, it makes no sense to assume Jesus was simply reiterating their understanding of the OT command with no intention that anyone should follow it. Why would he contrast his words against those of Moses if that were his purpose?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 10:17:43 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
I would almost agree completely, but what about where it talks about letting the unbelieving spouse depart, if he or she wishes to. Why would God let them depart (which according to benelchi's post means divorce)....if divorce is entirely unacceptable? He said no brother or sister was in bondage if their unbelieving spouse wanted to leave them.
Hi, ok... first of all it is Paul who speaks after 1 Cor 7:12.. to the "rest" I say.. what this means is Jesus the "lord" commanded all christians everywhere they are not to depart/separate (common use for divorce) or leave (divorce as well but meant a different way) in 1 cor 7:10-11. Now when it says "rest" it is speaking to those who included in the group of 1 Cor 7:10-11 but have a "certian" cercomstance that is other than ordinary. Now it says according to Acts 1:2 "apostles" were taught by the "Holy Spirit".... which was Paul :) As Paul answers according to 1 Cor 7:40 and I think I also have the Holy Spirit... Paul gave his 'opinion' in 1 Cor 7:40 about a widow will be "happier" if she remains single, but otherwise Paul spoke as guided by the Holy Spirt 1 Cor 7:25 "no commandment I have from the Lord". Jesus said what they "apostles" bind on earth shall be bound in heaven... for judgement. To give doctrines and instruction to the church (which is said in the last chaper of 2 tim and 2 thes 'if anyone does not obey the instructions' commands doctrines that we give them... separate from them. :)
So, will all of this jumbo. Paul said he allowed christians who are "only" married to unbelievers that if the unbeliever "separates" 1 Cor 7:15 to "let them separate" as you can see the unbeliver was the one to initate the divorce. It tells us why... for God has call "us" all to peace (to live in peace with the unbelivers whenever possible). By Paul telling the christian they are "not in bondage" he is not saying they are released to marry other spouses.. but they are released from the responsibility of 1 Cor 7:10-11 not to "depart/separte" or "leave" their spouses. For remarrige they 1 Cor 7:15 is to see other instructions. to be "loosed" or "released" as 1 Cor 7:26-27.... by the way there is a difference between "not in bondage" of 1 Cor 7:15 and "loosed/released" in order to marry again. The "not in bondage" of vs. 15 means they are not in "slavery" to obey. and not the meaning to be "loosed" from being "bound" to the other spouse. I hope this made somewhat sense.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/10/2009 12:22:36 AM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
Well Corinthians says pretty bluntly that a man must not put away his wife, and a wife must not leave her husband.
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
So how do we make this compatible with what Jesus says in Matthew? That if a man remarries after divorcing, he commits adultery, unless his wife has already committed adultery. Maybe he's not saying it's OKAY for the husband to divorce her for adultery. It sounds like he's simply saying if he does, and he remarries, he's not committing adultery, because she has already done so in the first place.
Maybe divorce for adultery is not acceptable after all? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
Hi, when Jesus is talking to the Pharasees and Scribes in Matt 19:9 this is not the gospel of Grace but concerning the intpretation of the Law of Moses correctly. According to sexual law if a man did put away his wife and she did commit sexual immorality in the marriage, he would not be committing adultery by marrying another. But Jesus has a new command for us Christians... for the Law of Moses was given because the "hardness" of a man's heart. But we christians have been given the ability to forgive our spouses with extraordiary, godly forgiveness. So, as much as it is in the Chritians power we are not to divorce our spouses for any reason. for only the permission of divorce was given because of the weakness of the man's heart. WE have a new heart in Christ Jesus. God did not divorce adulterous Judah in Jer 3:1-9 but because she returned God stayed married to her. God divorced Israel because although she too commited adultery in the marriage she was unwilling to continue in the covenant of God Jer 31:31-33 and therefore God "allowed" her to go... but God will remarry her once she repents and acknowledges her sin Jer 3:12-14 and 'Returns' Jer 3:1 (at the end). Christians are not to divorce their spouses.
The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus clearly contrasts what he has said here to their understanding of the OT Law as interpreted by Hillel. The influence of Hillel can be seen in the questions the Pharisees asked (Mt. 19.3) i.e. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?" Jesus' answer contrasts their understanding of Due. 24:1-4 with one that truly reflects the heart of God i.e (Mt. 19.8-9) i.e. "Moses said ... But I say..." Because of the structure of this passage, it makes no sense to assume Jesus was simply reiterating their understanding of the OT command with no intention that anyone should follow it. Why would he contrast his words against those of Moses if that were his purpose?
Thants a good thought. Well, Jesus was contridicting the thoughts of the Pharasees and Scribes... You say but I say... By saying "if not for..." Jesus was not reiterating what they said about divorce but was primarly saying a man is not to put away his wife Matt 19:9a. But the "permission" had to mean something according to the law reguarding "sin" according to the Law. For since the PHarasees and Jewish leaders were divorcing their wifes for the "any clause" (as primarly shown and said here) Jesus was convicting them of breaking the Law of Moses Deut 24:1 and "causing " their wives to commit adultery and they themselves by marrying another (committed adutlery)... they are full of dead man's bones. I hope (I belive) I have everything correct here. :)
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/12/2009 6:50:26 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
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The permission of Moses to “put away” their wives was only allowed for the man to initiate the divorce Deut 24:1 “When a man…”
When Paul says in Rom 7:1 “for I speak to those who know the law” he was only referring to what he said next… “, that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives.” For the next part he talks about a woman being under the “law” of her husband and speaks to the men in vs.1 about a man being under the law. Then Paul goes on and states some simple truths that have dominion over, “law of sin” vs. 7:23, 25 “law of God”, “law of husband” vs. 2-3, “I find a law that is evil is present with me” vs. 21, “law of my mind” vs. 23, and “law of sin and death” 8:2.
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
Paul tells this to the Gentile and Jewish Church in 1 Cor 7:39 “A woman has been bound by law for as long a time as lives the husband of her, if but “sleeps” the husband of her, free she is to who she desires to be married, only in the Lord.” Which is further said of the Christian women, “Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man” 1 Tim 5:9. The “has been” in Greek shows once in her life time, or as long as a husband of her was still living.
1 Cor 7:10-11 all is wrapped up in this “command” by our “Lord” Jesus towards all Christians, “a woman is not to separate from her husband, if separated let her remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband.” And to the men, “a man is not to leave his wife”. These commands are for any reason or purpose. The reason Paul uses the word “separate” towards the woman is, they did not have a right to ‘leave’ their husbands on account of sexual immorality according to the Law (this church was struggling with commands of the Law of Moses as shown 1 Cor 7:19 “circumcision,” and vs. 12-14 from the command of Ezra chap 9-10). The only ‘exception clause’ is said latter by Paul to the “rest” in vs. 15 giving permission to separate, “If but the unbeliever separates, let be separated.” They have not been put into bondage to remain married to them to try and “save” their husband or wife latter 1 Cor 7:16, but to let them go for ‘peace’ sake.
Only the Law of Moses gave permission to divorce your wife, not Jesus (Jesus restating the Law of Moses in Matt 19:9). We are not allowed to live according to the Law any longer, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them” Gal 3:10.
But if the man found himself divorced from his wife and “released” from her, according to scripture, then he may remarry and this would not be “sin” 1 Cor 7:27-28.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/12/2009 6:56:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 12:51:33 AM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
Marriages were done at home (Jacob and Rachel/Leah) and were not to be contested and the same thing for divorce (two or three witnesses). This story is not about the woman (she was already found uncleanliness in her, thus not cosidered walking according to the covenant like Hos 3:3). By telling the Godly man "after that she was defiled" meant she commited "adultery" against the "law" of her spouse as Rom 7:2-3 says and about improper marriages of Matt 5:32 etc...
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 1:13:48 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
Marriages were done at home (Jacob and Rachel/Leah) and were not to be contested and the same thing for divorce (two or three witnesses). This story is not about the woman (she was already found uncleanliness in her, thus not cosidered walking according to the covenant like Hos 3:3). By telling the Godly man "after that she was defiled" meant she commited "adultery" against the "law" of her spouse as Rom 7:2-3 says and about improper marriages of Matt 5:32 etc...
Can you cite any reference from the first century or earlier that demonstrate this understanding. None of the early commentaries i.e. Mishnah, etc.. on this verse that I am aware of support this understanding.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 9:49:51 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
Marriages were done at home (Jacob and Rachel/Leah) and were not to be contested and the same thing for divorce (two or three witnesses). This story is not about the woman (she was already found uncleanliness in her, thus not cosidered walking according to the covenant like Hos 3:3). By telling the Godly man "after that she was defiled" meant she commited "adultery" against the "law" of her spouse as Rom 7:2-3 says and about improper marriages of Matt 5:32 etc...
Can you cite any reference from the first century or earlier that demonstrate this understanding. None of the early commentaries i.e. Mishnah, etc.. on this verse that I am aware of support this understanding.
We have scripture... like the marriage of Isaac and Rebecca.. he just took her in the tent and they were married. Deut 21 it was all about paying the bridal price and entering into a covenant togeather like Adam and Eve... there were no commandments of marriage certificates. But they did submit after they were married for cencus and for the roman cencus, probably.... every contract is confirmed by 2 to 3 witnesses.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 10:55:18 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
Marriages were done at home (Jacob and Rachel/Leah) and were not to be contested and the same thing for divorce (two or three witnesses). This story is not about the woman (she was already found uncleanliness in her, thus not cosidered walking according to the covenant like Hos 3:3). By telling the Godly man "after that she was defiled" meant she commited "adultery" against the "law" of her spouse as Rom 7:2-3 says and about improper marriages of Matt 5:32 etc...
Can you cite any reference from the first century or earlier that demonstrate this understanding. None of the early commentaries i.e. Mishnah, etc.. on this verse that I am aware of support this understanding.
We have scripture... like the marriage of Isaac and Rebecca.. he just took her in the tent and they were married. Deut 21 it was all about paying the bridal price and entering into a covenant togeather like Adam and Eve... there were no commandments of marriage certificates. But they did submit after they were married for cencus and for the roman cencus, probably.... every contract is confirmed by 2 to 3 witnesses.
These scriptures do not support the claims you made above. And again the writing of the Jewish people clearly indicate that they understood these scriptures quite differently. You might want to look at the requirements given in the Mishnah for a valid certificate of divorce (based on the Duet. 24:1-4 passage) for example.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/14/2009 12:30:59 AM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
Marriages were done at home (Jacob and Rachel/Leah) and were not to be contested and the same thing for divorce (two or three witnesses). This story is not about the woman (she was already found uncleanliness in her, thus not cosidered walking according to the covenant like Hos 3:3). By telling the Godly man "after that she was defiled" meant she commited "adultery" against the "law" of her spouse as Rom 7:2-3 says and about improper marriages of Matt 5:32 etc...
Can you cite any reference from the first century or earlier that demonstrate this understanding. None of the early commentaries i.e. Mishnah, etc.. on this verse that I am aware of support this understanding.
We have scripture... like the marriage of Isaac and Rebecca.. he just took her in the tent and they were married. Deut 21 it was all about paying the bridal price and entering into a covenant togeather like Adam and Eve... there were no commandments of marriage certificates. But they did submit after they were married for cencus and for the roman cencus, probably.... every contract is confirmed by 2 to 3 witnesses.
These scriptures do not support the claims you made above. And again the writing of the Jewish people clearly indicate that they understood these scriptures quite differently. You might want to look at the requirements given in the Mishnah for a valid certificate of divorce (based on the Duet. 24:1-4 passage) for example.
I do not understand what you are asking? which claims? I am just using the bible for what the bible says is clear. as far as their laws apart from the Law of Moses I am not sure for even they did not understand Deut 24:1 as they questioned "any reason" to Jesus. I can tell you what the bible says about this topic (for the most part).
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/14/2009 10:30:25 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was defiled, by marrying the second husband.
The problem with this interpretation is the passage appears to indicate that she was defiled only because of the accusation of "something indecent" made by the first husband and she was permitted to remarry anyone other than her first husband.
Marriages were done at home (Jacob and Rachel/Leah) and were not to be contested and the same thing for divorce (two or three witnesses). This story is not about the woman (she was already found uncleanliness in her, thus not cosidered walking according to the covenant like Hos 3:3). By telling the Godly man "after that she was defiled" meant she commited "adultery" against the "law" of her spouse as Rom 7:2-3 says and about improper marriages of Matt 5:32 etc...
Can you cite any reference from the first century or earlier that demonstrate this understanding. None of the early commentaries i.e. Mishnah, etc.. on this verse that I am aware of support this understanding.
We have scripture... like the marriage of Isaac and Rebecca.. he just took her in the tent and they were married. Deut 21 it was all about paying the bridal price and entering into a covenant togeather like Adam and Eve... there were no commandments of marriage certificates. But they did submit after they were married for cencus and for the roman cencus, probably.... every contract is confirmed by 2 to 3 witnesses.
These scriptures do not support the claims you made above. And again the writing of the Jewish people clearly indicate that they understood these scriptures quite differently. You might want to look at the requirements given in the Mishnah for a valid certificate of divorce (based on the Duet. 24:1-4 passage) for example.
I do not understand what you are asking? which claims? I am just using the bible for what the bible says is clear. as far as their laws apart from the Law of Moses I am not sure for even they did not understand Deut 24:1 as they questioned "any reason" to Jesus. I can tell you what the bible says about this topic (for the most part).
and thus the heart of God.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/15/2009 9:20:22 PM
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mrsselig
Posts: 4
Joined: 1/15/2009
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what about people, who divorce. maybe the divorce is NOT their choice. later they remarry. and all the while, they were UNSAVED. yep. did not know God. did not HAVE salvation.
hmm. so they remarry, and then they get saved, find Christ. . . .. and what. their re-marriage is suddenly NOT sanctioned. not blessed. it is adulterous and wrong and illegal. immoral. riiiiight. i seriously DOUBT that God who loves EACH of us like a parent loves a cherished child. . . . . . (i have two. no matter WHAT i love them, throughout eternity) and His LOVE IS more perfect even than my own love for my own children! the God i know and worship does NOT condemn for remarriage. God forgives. He removes our sins as far as the east is from the west. He even FORGETS our sins.
_____________________________
all posts my humble opinion only
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/16/2009 6:59:13 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsselig
what about people, who divorce. maybe the divorce is NOT their choice. later they remarry. and all the while, they were UNSAVED. yep. did not know God. did not HAVE salvation.
hmm. so they remarry, and then they get saved, find Christ. . . .. and what. their re-marriage is suddenly NOT sanctioned. not blessed. it is adulterous and wrong and illegal. immoral. riiiiight. i seriously DOUBT that God who loves EACH of us like a parent loves a cherished child. . . . . . (i have two. no matter WHAT i love them, throughout eternity) and His LOVE IS more perfect even than my own love for my own children! the God i know and worship does NOT condemn for remarriage. God forgives. He removes our sins as far as the east is from the west. He even FORGETS our sins.
In the story of John the Baptist preaching repentence towards King Harod,, he had his brothers wife, which was unlawful, thus he was told to put her away,, for it is unlawful and very sinful to do so. So, in the case of Christians being married to their blood sister or brother, or some sick thing they should stay in the state they are in 1 Cor 7:27 if bound to a marriage, stay married, if single stay single (unless you are released biblically-such as a woman becoming a widow 1 Cor 7:39, or a man who's former wife has committed sexual immorality in the marriage Matt 19:9, or has remarried another Deut 24:4).
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/18/2009 6:16:46 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
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The only ‘exception clause’ is said latter by Paul to the “rest” in vs. 15, giving Christians permission to separate, “If but the unbeliever separates, let be separated.” “If” implying that the divorce has not occurred yet, and the Greek word of the unbeliever who “separates” is used in the reflexive mode. They have not been put into bondage for the responsibility to remain married to these unbelievers and try and “save” some of them 1 Cor 7:16, but to let them go for ‘peace’ sake (for all “us” Christians are to strive to live in peace with unbelievers when ever possible).
The Law of Moses gave permission to divorce a wife in Matt 19:9. Jesus did not give this permission to His follows, but corrected the Law of Moses to the Pharisees and Scribes concerning “adultery”. For the carnal mind is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can it be Rom 8:7. Jesus taught his followers, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so” Matt 19:8 and man should not “separate what God has joined together”. For those living under the Law, divorce was permitted, but we have been given a “new heart” and a “new spirit” Eze 36:26 in Christ Jesus, and no longer live in the hardheartedness of sin Heb 3:8-13 in order to “put away” our wives, but to “walk in the Spirit” obeying Christ in all righteousness.
We are commanded to be Holy as God is Holy. Jer 3:8, 9 God gives us His example of staying married when His wife Judah was unfaithful to Him (as 1 Cor 7:11b) and only divorcing Israel when she would not return to Him (as 1 Cor 7:15). We are not to live according to the Law of Moses which gave us “permission” to put away our wives for “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them” Gal 3:10 but to fulfill the “righteous requirements of the Law” Rom 8:4 and that is to “love” our neighbor and “forgive” their trespasses.
As God has forgiven you, forgive others Matt 18:33 for the measure you use against others shall be used against you vs. 35 if you do not forgive them from your “heart”.
Paul acknowledges Deut 24:1-4 by saying if a man “has been bound to a wife, seek not to be loosed/released” in 1 Cor 7:27. Stating a man can divorce his wife for the case of sexual immorality, but that a Christian man should not take advantage of this “permission” (though it would not be sexually immoral for him to do so). But if the man found himself divorced from his wife and “loosed/released” from her, according to scripture, then he may marry another while his wife was still living, and this would not be considered “sin” 1 Cor 7:28.
“The Cure 4 Divorce” booklet http://cure4divorcemichael.blogspot.com/
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2009 11:29:09 AM
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hatsofftou
Posts: 80
Joined: 1/17/2009
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Is Divorce a option? Sometimes it is exspecially when that mate loses the love or feelings he or she once had for you. Or if you cheated on them or visa versa. Then yeah by all means it is a option.
Does The Lord hate Divorce? Yes, he does.... it wasn't really meant to be but he saw that peolpe had harden their hearts towards their mates for certian things they did... The only reason divorce was brought up was for if someone committed adultry. That was it was intended for, but these days its become much more then that! You divorce cause your mate didn't have enough money... or cause he or she didn't want children... the craziest things you could think of they divorce over! It is really sad.
Can Divorce keep you from being in a mininstry? No, you can still minister to peolpe... I think you could be a decon still if you would like.. I mean my dad was married before and he divorced and remarried and is a decon at the church we are attending now! Alot of peolpe I know are. You repented of your sins, asked Jesus into your heart and life you have started a new... why couldn't do this? your living for him now.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2009 6:33:53 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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Divorce
The permission of Moses to “put away” their wives was only allowed for the man to initiate the divorce Deut 24:1 “When a man…” God does not follow the ungodly woman who “committed sexual immorality” against her husband, but gave instruction to the godly man only vs. 2-4 (Jer 3:1).
The meaning of “law of husband”
When Paul says in Rom 7:1 “for I speak to those who know the law” he was only referring to what he said next to these gentlemen… “, that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives.” Paul goes on and states some general concepts (rule of thumb) that have dominion over another “law” vs. 23. Paul speaks of the: “law of husband” vs. 2-3, “another law” vs. 23, “law of sin” vs. 23, “law of God” vs. 25, “I find a law that is evil is present with me” vs. 21, “law of my mind” vs. 23, “law of Spirit” 8:2, “law of sin and death” vs.3 and briefly spoken of earlier the “law of faith” 3:26.
Paul uses a physical truth “For…” Rom 7:2 to bring a conclusion “Therefore…” Rom 7:3 to explain its spiritual truth Rom 7:4 “So…” how they are released from the Law of Moses to “come to another” and not be an “adulteress”. So, the “law of the husband,” spoken by Paul in Rom 7:2-3 and latter in 1 Cor 7:39, is not referring to the Law of Moses, but “another law” that has “dominion over” her as long as he “lives”.
(The “law of the husband” Rom 7:2 were known by Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” For, the 1st husband was not allowed to remarry his wife after she was “defiled” from her marrying the second husband. She committed “adultery” against the “law” of her husband Rom 7:3).
1 Corinthians 7
Paul tells this to the Gentile and Jewish Church in 1 Cor 7:39 “A woman has been bound by law for as long a time as lives the husband of her, if but “sleeps” the husband of her, free she is to who she desires to be married, only in the Lord.” Which is further said of the Christian women, “Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man” 1 Tim 5:9. The “has been” in Greek shows once in her life time, or as long as a husband of her was still living.
1 Cor 7:10-11 all is wrapped up in this “command” by our “Lord” Jesus towards all Christians, “a woman is not to separate from her husband, if separated let her remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband.” And to the men, “a man is not to leave (some translations have dismiss) his wife”. These commands are for any reason or purpose. The reason Paul uses the word “separate” towards the woman is the Jew’s (who taught the Law) already knew the women did not have a right to ‘leave’ their husbands on account of ‘uncleanliness’ according to the Law of Moses (this church was struggling with obeying commands in the Law of Moses 1 Cor 7:19 “circumcision,” and vs. 12-14 from the command of Ezra chap 9-10 where they got the concept to put away their unclean spouse and children). The only ‘exception clause’ is said latter by Paul to the “rest” in vs. 15, giving Christians permission to separate, “If but the unbeliever separates, let be separated.” They have “not been put into bondage” for the responsibility to remain married to these unbelievers to “save” them 1 Cor 7:16, but to let them go for ‘peace’ sake (for all “us” Christians are to strive to live in peace with unbelievers whenever possible).
Matt 19:9
Only the Law of Moses gave permission to divorce a wife in Matt 19:9. Jesus did not give this permission to His follows only corrected the Law of Moses to the Pharisees and Scribes concerning “adultery”. For the carnal mind is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can it be Rom 8:7. Jesus said, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so” Matt 19:8 and man is not to “separate what God has joined together”. For those living under the Law, divorce was permitted, but we have been given a “new heart” and a “new spirit” Eze 36:26 in Christ Jesus, and no longer live in the hardheartedness of sin Heb 3:8-13 to “put away” our wives, but “walk in the Spirit” to obey Christ in all righteousness.
Be Holy
We are commanded to be Holy as God is Holy. Jer 3:8, 9 He gives us His example of staying married when His wife Judah was unfaithful to Him (as 1 Cor 7:11b), and only divorcing Israel when she would not return to Him (as 1 Cor 7:15). We are not to follow in the Law of Moses which gives us “permission” to put away our wives, but Christ alone. “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them” Gal 3:10.
As God has forgiven you, forgive others Matt 18:33 for the measure you use against others shall be used against you vs. 35 “in the heart”.
Remarriage of the man, only
Paul acknowledges Deut 24:1-4 by saying if a man “has been bound to a wife seek not to be loosed/released” in 1 Cor 7:27. Stating a man can divorce his wife for the case of sexual immorality, but that a Christian man should not take advantage of this “permission” (though it would not be sexually immoral for him to do so). But if the man found himself divorced from his wife and “loosed or released” from her, according to scripture, then he may marry another while his wife was still living, and this would not be considered “sin” 1 Cor 7:28.
From the booklet “The Cure 4 Divorce” (title by Stratton Wells).
http://cure4divorcemichael.blogspot.com/.
And help from a word by a friend, Adam (knowingly or unknowingly, I am not sure).
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2009 6:35:17 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hatsofftou
Is Divorce a option? Sometimes it is exspecially when that mate loses the love or feelings he or she once had for you. Or if you cheated on them or visa versa. Then yeah by all means it is a option.
Does The Lord hate Divorce? Yes, he does.... it wasn't really meant to be but he saw that peolpe had harden their hearts towards their mates for certian things they did... The only reason divorce was brought up was for if someone committed adultry. That was it was intended for, but these days its become much more then that! You divorce cause your mate didn't have enough money... or cause he or she didn't want children... the craziest things you could think of they divorce over! It is really sad.
Can Divorce keep you from being in a mininstry? No, you can still minister to peolpe... I think you could be a decon still if you would like.. I mean my dad was married before and he divorced and remarried and is a decon at the church we are attending now! Alot of peolpe I know are. You repented of your sins, asked Jesus into your heart and life you have started a new... why couldn't do this? your living for him now.
for 1 Tim 3:2 it is talking about having more than one wife (at this time) polyigamy.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2009 3:09:52 PM
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DivorceInChurch
Posts: 3
Joined: 1/27/2009
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Seems premature to me to debate whether divorce is good, bad, medium, or extra salty when we in the church are visiting the marriage water closet (flushing) as much as our secular friends. In fact it can very easily be asserted that we are setting up an environment in which we preach kinda sorta against divorce, the figuratively grab the hands of those looking to file one and walk them past and around all the things that may create some discomfort in that decision.
Meanwhile we stay quite exercised over those "other sins" that we are famous for.
No fault divorce is a blight on the church, for so many reasons, and it breaks Gods heart. Usually it means someone didn't want the divorce. One person wants to work it out. Imagine that, in a no violence or infidelity marriage, one person says they want to go....the other, and the kids if there are some, they want the family to remain intact. One person...alone....can decide nope, they want to sever all that. Ive read that the pain of divorce rivals a death of a child or spouse. So we the church, we say from the pulpit, "we are about marriages lasting"....then we say "pick up your literature for divorce care on the way out today, the place where unilateral divorce filers can come every Thursday evening and leave some of that guilt behind so you can move on with your life....I mean really, God doesn't want you to hurt right?"
Unless and until we see it and act like it is what it is....embracing the divorcED in love and acceptance, but STRONGLY discouraging those yet to file, and definitely not walking them through it pain free for petes sake...we will suffer the social pathologies that result...and we grieve our Lord.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2009 8:35:24 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DivorceInChurch
Seems premature to me to debate whether divorce is good, bad, medium, or extra salty when we in the church are visiting the marriage water closet (flushing) as much as our secular friends. In fact it can very easily be asserted that we are setting up an environment in which we preach kinda sorta against divorce, the figuratively grab the hands of those looking to file one and walk them past and around all the things that may create some discomfort in that decision.
Meanwhile we stay quite exercised over those "other sins" that we are famous for.
No fault divorce is a blight on the church, for so many reasons, and it breaks Gods heart. Usually it means someone didn't want the divorce. One person wants to work it out. Imagine that, in a no violence or infidelity marriage, one person says they want to go....the other, and the kids if there are some, they want the family to remain intact. One person...alone....can decide nope, they want to sever all that. Ive read that the pain of divorce rivals a death of a child or spouse. So we the church, we say from the pulpit, "we are about marriages lasting"....then we say "pick up your literature for divorce care on the way out today, the place where unilateral divorce filers can come every Thursday evening and leave some of that guilt behind so you can move on with your life....I mean really, God doesn't want you to hurt right?"
Unless and until we see it and act like it is what it is....embracing the divorcED in love and acceptance, but STRONGLY discouraging those yet to file, and definitely not walking them through it pain free for petes sake...we will suffer the social pathologies that result...and we grieve our Lord.
sorry, I don't know how to send this to your inbox. You may want to read this with your call name "divorce" in it.
The Cure 4 Divorce
Moses permitted divorce, Jesus DOES NOT.
The Law of Moses
Deut 24:1-4
Sin on the land
The permission of Moses to “put away” their wives, only allowed for the man to initiate the divorce Deut 24:1 “When a man…” Moses did not give 'permission’ for the ungodly woman who committed “sexual immorality” (Matt 5:32), to remarry again in (Deut 24:2) but Moses was using this illustration to give instruction to the men of Israel (“Then her former husband…” vs. 4) not to marry again their “defiled” wife. For that is an “abomination” before the Lord to bring “sin on the land”. In Jer 3:1 God used the illustration of Deut 24:1 “They say, ‘If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him, and becomes (marries) another man’s, may her return to her again?” to reveal “Would not that land be greatly polluted?” how defiled Israel had become “But you have played the harlot with many lovers”. The Lord wishes them (His “children” vs. 14) to “acknowledge your iniquity” vs. 13, before the Lord that they “transgressed against the Lord your God…and you have not obeyed My voice’ says the Lord” and “Return” vs. 1, 14. The wife had become defiled by marrying the second husband, “after she has been “defiled” Deut 24:4.
The meaning of “law of husband”
Rom 7:1-4
Rom 7:2 starts off by says in NKJV, “For the woman who has a husband…” but in actuality this sentence says in Greek, “For the under-man woman (wife) to the living man (husband) being bound law.”
Subject and Silent
1 Cor 14:34-35
1 Cor 14:34, “women keep silent in the Churches…but let them be subject, even as also the Law says”, Paul uses the law in Gen 3:16 (of the women to be subject to their husbands) as why the women are to remain silent in the Church. Paul next said, if these women want to “learn” something, to ask their husbands (where the law originates too) at “home”. So, the “law” in Rom 7:2-3 and 1 Cor 7:39 Paul is referring to looks to be the law of God of Gen 3:16, “husband desire, rule over you” (God spoke this law into existence).
1 Tim 2:11-14
It also gives another reason the woman is to be “subject” to the man “Adam was first formed than Eve” 1 Tim 2:13 (creation account also in 1 Cor 11:2-12). And why the woman is to remain “silent” in the Church “Adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived fell into transgression” 1 Tim 2:14 (also said 2 Cor 11:3 “serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness”).
Design of God
God designed the woman for the man “help meet”, but the punishment of the woman is that man shall “rule” over her in it. God designed the woman to have children “be fruitful and multiply”, but the punishment caused this to be in great “pain”. Man was in the garden of the Lord to “tend and keep it” Gen 2:15, but his punishment made him toil his own ground by the “sweat” of his brow “shall eat bread”. The “punishment” made these designs of God with pain.
Law of God
We “were made dead to the law (of Moses)” Rom 7:4, and we are “not under law” Rom 6:15, but we are “not without law to God” 1 Cor 9:21 but “under-law of Christ”. For living in the Spirit we fulfill the “righteousness of the law” Rom 8:4, that is the whole “law of God” Rom 7:22 and 8:7. We get the concept for the man to be head of his wife, and the woman to be submissive to her husband from both the creation account (Adam was formed first than Eve) and the law (“rule over her”).
Definition of law
When Paul says in Rom 7:1 “for I speak to those who know law (the Law of Moses),” referring to the general concept…“that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives (its governing principles)”. Paul goes on and states some other “laws”, to explain to have dominion over: “another law” vs. 23, “law of sin” vs. 23, “law of God” vs. 25, “I find a law that is evil is present with me” vs. 21, “law of my mind” vs. 23, “law of Spirit” 8:2, “law of sin and death” vs.3 and briefly spoken of earlier the “law of faith” 3:26.
Adulteress
Paul uses a physical truth “For…” Rom 7:2 (being bound by the law to her husband), to bring a conclusion “Therefore…” Rom 7:3 (called an adulteress), to explain the spiritual truth “So…” Rom 7:4 (in how they were released from the Law of Moses to be joined to “another”). Paul in Rom 7:2-3 was using the general concept of the “law” spoken in Rom 7:1c by its governing principles by using a known and excepted teaching as an ‘example’. The letter to the Romans was written to both Jews (chap 2-7 primary) and then the Gentiles (Rom 11:13) was written after he wrote the letter to the Corinthians.
(The “law of the husband” Rom 7:2, is seen in Deut 24:4 “after that she has been defiled.” She was “defiled” by marrying the second husband. She committed “adultery” against the “law” of her husband, and is “called an adulteress” Rom 7:3 becoming “defiled”).
Remarriage of the woman “Widow”
Paul tells this to the Gentile and Jewish Church in 1 Cor 7:39 “A woman has been bound by law for as long a time as lives the husband of her, if but “sleeps” the husband of her, free she is to who she desires to be married, only in the Lord.” Which is further said of the Christian women, “Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man” 1 Tim 5:9. The “has been” in Greek shows once in her life time, or as long as a husband of her was still living. “But I say to the unmarrieds and the widows…” 1 Cor 7:8-9.
Paul says the “law” in 1 Cor 7:39 as coming into the state of “being bound”, “on” the case of the life of the husband. Which would conclude the “law” of the husband is, in fact, a concept Paul would be teaching the Church to obey.
“Command/Charge”
1 Cor 7:10-11 all is wrapped up in this “command” by our “Lord” Jesus towards all Christians, “a woman is not to separate from her husband, if separated let her remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband.” And to the men, “a man is not to leave (some translations have dismiss) his wife”. These commands are for any reason or purpose. The reason Paul uses the word “separate” towards the woman is the Jew’s in the Church already taught the women did not have a right to ‘leave’ their husbands on account of ‘uncleanness’ according to the Law of Moses. For this was the main teaching of-the-day Matt 19:3 as spoken by the Pharisees and Scribes (Religions Rulers) to Jesus concerning divorce (Matt 19:9). Although possibly a few influential women “put away” their husbands (Mark 10:12) in that day.
Do not touch what is unclean
Many Churches were struggling with obeying commands in the Law of Moses Acts 15:5 (Gal 2:4). In 1 Cor 7:19 it spoke of “circumcision,” and 1 Cor 7:12-13 they were “leaving” their spouses due to the command of Ezra chap 9-10:3 (Nem 13:27) due to the “law” of marrying the 7 abominable Nations Deut 7:3-4 they drove out before them Nem 13:23-26, and not to “touch” what is “unclean” but to be “separate” from them Is. 52:11 (as 2 Cor 6:17). Paul addresses them in 1 Cor 7:14 because according to this logic their “children” would also be “unclean” (requiring according to the “law” to put away their children, as well Ezra 10:3). But now, through the Holy Spirit, their spouses have been “sanctified” making the children “holy”.
1 Cor 7:15 “Not in bondage”
The only ‘exception clause’ is said latter by Paul to the “rest” (vs. 12) in 1 Cor 7:15 giving Christians permission to separate in “this case”, “If but the unbeliever separates, let be separated” as long as the unbelievers were not willing to remain in the marriage. They have “not been put into bondage” for the responsibility to remain married to try and “save” them 1 Cor 7:16. But to let them go for ‘peace’ sake (for all “us” Christians are to strive to live in peace with unbelievers, whenever possible).
Matt 19:9
and
Matt 5:31-32
Only the Law of Moses gave permission to divorce a wife in Matt 19:9. Jesus did not teach this as a permission to his Disciples to take advantage of, only addressed the adultery in remarriage (we are commanded as Gentiles to abstain from “sexual” sin Acts 15:29), and causing the innocent party to sin Matt 5:32 if the “man” divorced his wife without the known “reason” or case of “sexual immorality”. For the carnal mind is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can it be Rom 8:7.
New Heart
Jesus said, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so” Matt 19:8 and man is not to “separate what God has joined together”. For those living under the Law, divorce was permitted, but we have been given a “new heart” and a “new spirit” Eze 36:26 in Christ Jesus, and no longer live in (unforgiveness) the hardheartedness of sin Heb 3:8-13 to “put away” our wives, but “walk in the Spirit” to obey Christ in all righteousness.
“Be Holy”
We are commanded to be Holy as God is Holy. Jer 3:8, 9 He gives us His example of staying married when His wife Judah was unfaithful to Him (as 1 Cor 7:11b), and only divorcing Israel when she would not return to Him (as 1 Cor 7:15). We are not to follow in the Law of Moses which gives us “permission” to put away our wives, but Christ alone. “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them” Gal 3:10.
As God has forgiven you, forgive others Matt 18:33, for the measure you use against others shall be used against you, vs. 35 “in the heart”.
Remarriage of the man “Loosed”
Paul acknowledges to be “loosed” as Deut 24:1-4 by saying if a man “has been bound to a wife seek not to be loosed/released” in 1 Cor 7:27. Stating a man can divorce his wife for the case of sexual immorality, but that a Christian man should not take advantage of this “permission” (though it would not be sexually immoral for him to do so). But if the man found himself divorced from his wife and “loosed or released” from her, according to scripture, then he may marry another while his wife was still living, and this would not be considered “sin” 1 Cor 7:28.
(The Cure 4 Divorce - title by Stratton Wells)
And help from a word by a friend, Adam (knowingly or unknowingly, I am not sure).
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 9:14:35 AM
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DivorceInChurch
Posts: 3
Joined: 1/27/2009
Status: offline
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My view on the mechanics of divorce lines up with my view on divorce policy.
If , in no abuse no infidelity scenarios (and I also think those folks should try and try to make it work out....incidentally I have a divorce way back in my past...and I do not condemn anyone) one spouse wants to leave...and this is the scenario that accounts for by far the majority of divorces, then fine...the law shouldn't force a person to be married. BUT, the law should make the one leaving leave with what they came into the marriage with,....leaving all other assets for the other person. If however they embark on a long waiting period and counseling and an attempt to fix it.....then things could be different.
The problem is, there is no cost, nor stigma....zero negative pressure.
What a shame that the church AND the law grease the skids of divorce. The church unknowingly absolutely eases the divorce process, and IF....IF the preacher ever speaks against divorce, be sure he will fall all over himself apologizing for saying it because he fears offending the divorcED. Tragic...and much nees to be done....if we'd pay half the attention to divorce that we do abortiona dn same sex marriage, we'd drop the rate in 5 years
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2009 11:18:28 PM
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mikesayen
Posts: 477
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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The "law" of her husband Paul is speaking about in 1 Cor 14:34 was written in their law of Gen 3:16, "desire husband, rule over you". For Moses wrote the first 5 books, Torah, and earlier a quote in 1 Cor 14 quoted Isa. about toungs and was said to be in the "law" also...which was in the Prophets and not the Law of Moses. This "law" affected the women when they married a husband, "being bound law" in 1 Cor 7:39, and Rom 7:2-3 binding them to their husbands until they died. For only the Law of divorce given by Moses, was to the man only to initiate the divorce.
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