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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/29/2009 12:32:52 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
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If we just stick with Scripture, then we won't know how quite a few Biblical prophecies were fulfilled. Besides, Maccabee and the Jews were there, they ought to know what was going on.
quote:
Who were the 'stars' before John and Jesus and the Disciples and the Apostles? God didn't even sen them any prophets during the vast majority of that 490 years.
The "host", in this case, would be the Jews of Jerusalem, who later fought back and restored the city and the sacrifices. Antiochus even "exerted" himself to the "prince of the host", the High Priest of the Temple, as he interrupted the daily sacrifice.
quote:
We agree for the most part, in counting would Alex be the 4th when counting from Neb? (Neb is #1)
What, exactly, are we counting?
quote:
Agreed with the stipulation that all 4 did not rule over Jerusalem. Egypt took it over 3 days after Alex's death if I remember correctly.
Ptolemy took Jerusalem 3 years after Alexander's death, in 320 BC. But yeah, same idea.
quote:
A delay is all his efforts netted. How long were things interrupted for? The destruction mentioned in Ch:8 if done by the Romans is much more permanent is it not?
The Temple services were interrupted for a little over 3 years, just as predicted (2300 mornings and evenings, Daniel 8:14).
quote:
Simple question, the end of sacrifice mentioned in Da: 8 & 9, are they the same of different. (I already know you view them as being different.) In Daniel 9:25 it says the rebuilding will carry on even in troublesome times. Those times are prior to the cross, what part of history is being referenced?
There were several times throughout history when the sacrifice at the Temple was ended. This is always a major event. Why should every prophecy have to only focus on one of those times?
And the rebuilding of Jerusalem did carry on...Antiochus just threw the whole process a bit of a curveball.
Also, I have to ask, where are all the Preterists around here? Have you guys converted them all, or something?
And no, I'm not calling myself a Preterist. I don't necessarily believe it yet, even if I am arguing in favor of it at the moment.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/29/2009 4:19:49 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Retro…a question;
God had left the temple by the time the Romans brought any defilement of it in 70AD so how could Paul’s statement of 2 Th 2:4 have any bearing on any historically event? Doesn’t this almost demand a future occurrence? That is if we are talking about an affront to God.
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
I have a really hard time accepting the concept that the AC would replace God in a spiritual way is what Paul had in mind.
Bob
Sorry, my friend; I missed your question! The problem as I see it is that one should not be making a connection between Matt. 24 and 2 Thes. 2:4! The abomination that made Isra'el desolate was NOT the AC (or rather the Beast) "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God!" They are NOT THE SAME EVENT! The abomination that made Isra'el desolate, according to Yeshua`, was their rejection of HIM:
Matt 23:1-39
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ (the JEWISH MESSIAH!); and all ye (Jews) are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ (the JEWISH MESSIAH!).
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Hebrew: "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH" from Psalm 118:26 meaning "We welcome the one who comes on the authority of YHVH," i.e., Yeshua` the Messiah Himself)
KJV
Roy
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 2:26:26 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Also, I have to ask, where are all the Preterists around here? Have you guys converted them all, or something?
And no, I'm not calling myself a Preterist. I don't necessarily believe it yet, even if I am arguing in favor of it at the moment.
I'm not sure. Theologyweb is still hard-core preterist. I'll reply to the rest in just a bit.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 1:13:58 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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Before you reply, I want to point something out...
The oldest manuscripts of the Book of Daniel give the "evenings and mornings" period as 2200 rather than 2300. Other translations have 2400, but the oldest hold to 2200.
2200 evening and morning sacrifices is 1100 days.
Maccabees reports that Antiochus IV Epiphanes set up the pagan idol and stopped the daily sacrifice on the 15th day of the 9th month (Kislev) in 167 BC. The Maccabees then restored the daily sacrifice on the 25th day of Kislev in 164 BC, 3 years later (3 years to the day, in fact, since Antiochus initiated his own pagan sacrifices).
The number of days in 167 BC, following 15 Kislev, was 102.
2 full years, of 354 days each, followed, adding 708 days.
One of the years covered by this period was likely to have been a leap-year, adding 30 days.
The number of days in 164 BC prior to (but not including) 25 Kislev was 260.
102+708+30+260 = 1100 days.
This may be off by 1 day either way, due to the complexity of the Jewish calendar, but, the point is, the interruption of the daily sacrifice by Antiochus fulfilled even the most precise of prophecies.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 2:33:03 PM
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eschaton
Posts: 1
Joined: 3/30/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sorry, my friend; I missed your question! The problem as I see it is that one should not be making a connection between Matt. 24 and 2 Thes. 2:4! The abomination that made Isra'el desolate was NOT the AC (or rather the Beast) "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God!" They are NOT THE SAME EVENT! The abomination that made Isra'el desolate, according to Yeshua`, was their rejection of HIM:
Retrobyter,
If what you say is true, then why is it the Christian fathers have always associated Matt 24 and 2 Thes 2:4 since at least the second century? I don't think anyone cared to differ until a few hundred years ago.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 3:34:42 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Before you reply, I want to point something out...
The oldest manuscripts of the Book of Daniel give the "evenings and mornings" period as 2200 rather than 2300. Other translations have 2400, but the oldest hold to 2200.
2200 evening and morning sacrifices is 1100 days.
Maccabees reports that Antiochus IV Epiphanes set up the pagan idol and stopped the daily sacrifice on the 15th day of the 9th month (Kislev) in 167 BC. The Maccabees then restored the daily sacrifice on the 25th day of Kislev in 164 BC, 3 years later (3 years to the day, in fact, since Antiochus initiated his own pagan sacrifices).
The number of days in 167 BC, following 15 Kislev, was 102.
2 full years, of 354 days each, followed, adding 708 days.
One of the years covered by this period was likely to have been a leap-year, adding 30 days.
The number of days in 164 BC prior to (but not including) 25 Kislev was 260.
102+708+30+260 = 1100 days.
This may be off by 1 day either way, due to the complexity of the Jewish calendar, but, the point is, the interruption of the daily sacrifice by Antiochus fulfilled even the most precise of prophecies.
Another part of your theory is that Rome becomes the Iron/clay. From just chapter 8 these verses would have to be fulfilled by Rome. The latter time would be the beginning of Roman rule over Jerusalem. Compared to the verses I already suggested they don't fit all that well with the way things actually went. Jesus took the power of the Holy people away when He said they would be left desolate. It was Jesus who gave Peter the vision that the Gentiles could no be preached the Gospel to. Rome gave birth to the RCC, they are still a very powerful force even today.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.
Da:8:24:
And his power shall be mighty,
but not by his own power:
and he shall destroy wonderfully,
and shall prosper,
and practise,
and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Da:8:25:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;
but he shall be broken without hand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
If we just stick with Scripture, then we won't know how quite a few Biblical prophecies were fulfilled. Besides, Maccabee and the Jews were there, they ought to know what was going on.
You should put the verses together as the Bible puts them rather than take a bit, force it to fit a certain time to support some theory. Rome wasn't destroyed by Christ coming, He used them to destroy the city and people of Jerusalem.
quote:
Who were the 'stars' before John and Jesus and the Disciples and the Apostles? God didn't even sen them any prophets during the vast majority of that 490 years.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The "host", in this case, would be the Jews of Jerusalem, who later fought back and restored the city and the sacrifices. Antiochus even "exerted" himself to the "prince of the host", the High Priest of the Temple, as he interrupted the daily sacrifice.
Most of books in the OT that are placed after Daniel were written before Daniel was alive. Jerusalem was on it's own for hundreds of Years before Jesus was born. There were no stars, both John and Jesus were anointed with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb, that would make them stars. Two chapers that are back to back nd cover the same period of time can be referencing the same event when it says sacrifice was ended. Rome took away the temple, Jesus had already taken away the need for live sacrifices.
If you have Rome being the iron then Da:11 should be just about them, anybody previous to them should be in ch:8 as even in that chapter there is a transition from the brass to the iron.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
What, exactly, are we counting?
The 8 kings mentioned in Revelation. I say the 6th one (that is) was Rome, Jerusalem is still under Gentile rule and it stays that way until the 7th trump. Who would you call the 10 men that the Beast gives power too?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The Temple services were interrupted for a little over 3 years, just as predicted (2300 mornings and evenings, Daniel 8:14).
So do these verses also belong in your reference?
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Da:12:12:
Blessed is he that waiteth,
and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
There were several times throughout history when the sacrifice at the Temple was ended. This is always a major event. Why should every prophecy have to only focus on one of those times?
And the rebuilding of Jerusalem did carry on...Antiochus just threw the whole process a bit of a curveball.
So compared to Jesus's time here already, which would be the more important event and if Jesus is the more important would God have more written about that time. I'm not asking you to drop your doctrine, I am asking that consider that some might see those two references as being very related. Yes it does change a few things but only about the path to the end.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2009 4:33:43 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
You should put the verses together as the Bible puts them rather than take a bit, force it to fit a certain time to support some theory. Rome wasn't destroyed by Christ coming, He used them to destroy the city and people of Jerusalem.
I'm placing the prophecies as they appear, to me, to have been fulfilled. If the prophecies were actually talking about different times, then I'm "forcing" nothing, I'm just figuring out what they were really talking about.
But, then, it's possible that my interpretation of how the prophecies were fulfilled is wrong.
As for Rome not being destroyed by Christ's coming...that's very true. I have an idea of what might be the reason for that apparent problem in my head, but I'll keep it there for now, until I can do more study on it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Most of books in the OT that are placed after Daniel were written before Daniel was alive. Jerusalem was on it's own for hundreds of Years before Jesus was born. There were no stars, both John and Jesus were anointed with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb, that would make them stars. Two chapers that are back to back nd cover the same period of time can be referencing the same event when it says sacrifice was ended. Rome took away the temple, Jesus had already taken away the need for live sacrifices.
If you have Rome being the iron then Da:11 should be just about them, anybody previous to them should be in ch:8 as even in that chapter there is a transition from the brass to the iron.
This is all based on our interpretation of "stars". In this case, I see the Jews of the time, who found themselves persecuted by Antiochus but were then victorious over him in the end, as being important enough to warrant them being called "stars".
Daniel 11 was very accurately fulfilled by a couple kings of Persia, followed by Antiochus, and finally by Herod the Great.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The 8 kings mentioned in Revelation. I say the 6th one (that is) was Rome, Jerusalem is still under Gentile rule and it stays that way until the 7th trump. Who would you call the 10 men that the Beast gives power too?
The Beast was the Roman Empire, with Revelation 13 focusing on the Empire during the rule of Nero. The 10 kings receiving power with the Beast were:
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. Galba
8. Otho
9. Vitellius
10. Vespasian
Nero is the 8th head (he was revealed to John specifically, after the more general "seven heads"), but he was of the seven (he was the 6th, who "is" at the time John received the vision). The other five had already fallen.
No Roman Emperor had received power to persecute the Jews (of Jerusalem, called "Mystery Babylon"), until one, Nero, was given ultimate authority to do so for a short time ("one hour", 3 and a half years).
Vespasian would be the 7th head (who "is not yet cometh"), who continued to persecute the Jews for only a little while longer...about a year.
Also, as I've mentioned before, the 3 kings during the civil war period (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) were the 3 "subdued" by Vespasian, the little horn in Daniel 7 and victor of the civil war. What I haven't mentioned before is that this civil war period is what's being described by the fragile iron-clay nature of the feet in Nebuchadnezzar's vision. The iron legs of the statue are the Roman Empire from Julius Caesar to Nero, prior to the civil war.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
So do these verses also belong in your reference?
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Da:12:12:
Blessed is he that waiteth,
and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
It seems that there were around 1290 days from the interruption of the daily sacrifice to Antiochus IV Epiphanes' death. I don't know, at the moment, where the 1335 days comes in, I've been researching that all day...it may have been fulfilled in a way that, because it was so long ago, we can never know, or it might not have been fulfilled at all, in which case I'm wrong. I'll accept either option.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
So compared to Jesus's time here already, which would be the more important event and if Jesus is the more important would God have more written about that time. I'm not asking you to drop your doctrine, I am asking that consider that some might see those two references as being very related. Yes it does change a few things but only about the path to the end.
It's greater importance doesn't mean that the later Abomination had to be the one that every single prophecy focused on.
But yeah, like you say, the end result is the same.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 12:51:24 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
I'm placing the prophecies as they appear, to me, to have been fulfilled. If the prophecies were actually talking about different times, then I'm "forcing" nothing, I'm just figuring out what they were really talking about.
Lets do a quick recap right from Daniel:2. By the end of the chapter we are aware that there will be is 4 kingdoms from that point in time until Christ is in absolute control of Jerusalem, Israel, and all Nations. That is where the vision in Da:2 ends.
The brass has this said about them.
Da:2:39:
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,
and another third kingdom of brass,
which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Your theory demands that Rome be excluded from being a contender even though the ruled over Jerusalem for 100's of years and they happened to be the law when Jesus came as high priest.
If words are important then the last kingdom before Christ applies His Laws to this world.
Da:2:40-44
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron:
forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things:
and as iron that breaketh all these,
shall it break in pieces and bruise.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,
part of potters' clay,
and part of iron,
the kingdom shall be divided;
but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron,
forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron,
and part of clay,
so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,
they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:
but they shall not cleave one to another,
even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people,
but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,
and it shall stand for ever.
Now if you compare that to what the NT says about those early times, Christians were under more persecution from the temple leaders than they were from Roman officials. At the time of the cross Rome made it pretty clear they had no interest in 'gods', they were all about taxes and profits. The revolt around 70AD would have changed that. A person might be a Christian Jew but Rome would have seen Jew and off to prison. Acts and the story of Stephen make it clear who was a threat to Christians.
Rome didn't get broken. Christ is not ruling with power and glory.
1Co:15:16:
For if the dead rise not,
then is not Christ raised:
1Co:15:17:
And if Christ be not raised,
your faith is vain;
ye are yet in your sins.
1Co:15:18:
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co:15:19:
If in this life only we have hope in Christ,
we are of all men most miserable.
The above is part of what is to occur when the end of the iron/clay comes. Rome is long dead and people who believe in God die right along the ones who could care less about any gods.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
But, then, it's possible that my interpretation of how the prophecies were fulfilled is wrong.
I've got more than one verse that has more than one option, it gets more focused depending how other ones play out. I also thing it is so finely detailed that it could never be faked, that is our hope in not being deceived.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
As for Rome not being destroyed by Christ's coming...that's very true. I have an idea of what might be the reason for that apparent problem in my head, but I'll keep it there for now, until I can do more study on it.
If Ezra and Nehemiah have a few things to say about the 70 weeks they might also cover the events you say are important in that many verses are dedicated to that specific time. Each of the 4 metal kingdoms has a chapter about it, some, like the iron one has even a few more references than just one chapter. The gold, silver, and brass all have their own specific chapters. By the end of ch:8 they have been covered, that leaves the iron. That is what ch:11 is. Events specific to the iron/clay, you have to have Rome involved in all those wars and deceptions, etc. I don't find it fits very well at all.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
This is all based on our interpretation of "stars". In this case, I see the Jews of the time, who found themselves persecuted by Antiochus but were then victorious over him in the end, as being important enough to warrant them being called "stars".
That could be the same as these ones.
M't:23:13:
But woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites!
for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:
for ye neither go in yourselves,
neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
M't:23:14:
Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses,
and for a pretence make long prayer:
therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
M't:23:15:
Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites!
for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte,
and when he is made,
ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
M't:23:16:
Woe unto you,
ye blind guides,
which say,
Whosoever shall swear by the temple,
it is nothing;
but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple,
he is a debtor!
M't:23:17:
Ye fools and blind:
for whether is greater,
the gold,
or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
M't:23:18:
And,
Whosoever shall swear by the altar,
it is nothing;
but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it,
he is guilty.
And on for another 20 verses. Would you really call them 'stars', they didn't seem to be following all that closely it seems.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel 11 was very accurately fulfilled by a couple kings of Persia, followed by Antiochus, and finally by Herod the Great.
Then it should have been covered in the chapter about the brass, Ch:8. It wasn't, this is the chapter about the iron and what it does in a 'set time' and how it fails in the last verse. (7th trump)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The 8 kings mentioned in Revelation. I say the 6th one (that is) was Rome, Jerusalem is still under Gentile rule and it stays that way until the 7th trump. Who would you call the 10 men that the Beast gives power too?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The Beast was the Roman Empire, with Revelation 13 focusing on the Empire during the rule of Nero. The 10 kings receiving power with the Beast were:
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. Galba
8. Otho
9. Vitellius
10. Vespasian
In Revelation those 10 men are all given kingdoms at the same time, your list is sequential. The Beast is given a time of 42 months, that is 3 1/2 years (1260 days). Your list probably covers close to 126 years.
The beasts of Daniel:7 say that 10 men (horns) are in control and at some point another horn overpowers 3. That cannot be done with a sequential numbers, it can be done if those 10 rule 10 separate kingdoms.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Nero is the 8th head (he was revealed to John specifically, after the more general "seven heads"), but he was of the seven (he was the 6th, who "is" at the time John received the vision). The other five had already fallen.
No Roman Emperor had received power to persecute the Jews (of Jerusalem, called "Mystery Babylon"), until one, Nero, was given ultimate authority to do so for a short time ("one hour", 3 and a half years).
The 8th is a returning king, was, is not, will be again. Did Nero ever do that?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Vespasian would be the 7th head (who "is not yet cometh"), who continued to persecute the Jews for only a little while longer...about a year.
How many kings in total if you counted all Roman rulers. At the end of the 8th it should be Christ physically ruling the earth and all that are in it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Also, as I've mentioned before, the 3 kings during the civil war period (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) were the 3 "subdued" by Vespasian, the little horn in Daniel 7 and victor of the civil war. What I haven't mentioned before is that this civil war period is what's being described by the fragile iron-clay nature of the feet in Nebuchadnezzar's vision. The iron legs of the statue are the Roman Empire from Julius Caesar to Nero, prior to the civil war.
Scripture says the clay is the 'seeds of men', that would include Romans would it not?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
So do these verses also belong in your reference?
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Da:12:12:
Blessed is he that waiteth,
and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
It seems that there were around 1290 days from the interruption of the daily sacrifice to Antiochus IV Epiphanes' death. I don't know, at the moment, where the 1335 days comes in, I've been researching that all day...it may have been fulfilled in a way that, because it was so long ago, we can never know, or it might not have been fulfilled at all, in which case I'm wrong. I'll accept either option.
I know it sure messes up a 7 year trib in that one half is 30 days longer. In my POV it would be the amount of time it would take fot the remnant of the Nations to get to Jerusalem for the fisr feast of the Tabernacles. The first few years it's looks pretty war torn. Even then it isn't the strongest argument.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
It's greater importance doesn't mean that the later Abomination had to be the one that every single prophecy focused on.
But yeah, like you say, the end result is the same.
When Jesus mentions that when the abomination was sitting where it should not be was He takling about Da:9 or 11?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2009 8:12:21 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, eschaton.
quote:
ORIGINAL: eschaton
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sorry, my friend; I missed your question! The problem as I see it is that one should not be making a connection between Matt. 24 and 2 Thes. 2:4! The abomination that made Isra'el desolate was NOT the AC (or rather the Beast) "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God!" They are NOT THE SAME EVENT! The abomination that made Isra'el desolate, according to Yeshua`, was their rejection of HIM:
Retrobyter,
If what you say is true, then why is it the Christian fathers have always associated Matt 24 and 2 Thes 2:4 since at least the second century? I don't think anyone cared to differ until a few hundred years ago.
BECAUSE, ... people have a way of getting most things wrong. It hasn't been that much of an issue because up until recently it has only been theory. NOW, however, coming down to the wire, so to speak, God has made it an issue to get us back on track before it becomes a reality. (IMO, of course.) Besides, it was the notorious 2nd century into the 3rd and 4th that introduced SO MANY errors into the "church."
And, frankly, the "Christian fathers" have NOT always associated the two. Just the most vocal of them.
Roy
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2009 1:29:20 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Daniel says in some 'future point' knowledge will increase. With an e-bible I can look up hundreds more verses than I could with a paper bible. If knowledge comes naturally from reading the Bible then (in theory) I should be able to learn more faster (in reality knowledge is when something is understood). I should be able to do in a few hours what would normally take a week or a month. With places like this chat-room theories get 'tested' much faster (and by many more eyes) than they would in a paper world.
I doubt out 'dedication' is any greater than it was for any who spent most of their lives with their noses between the pages.
That doesn't mean it is an (really) important sign, on scale with rumors of wars. The writing of the NT could have been seen (by those in Daniel's time) as 'knowledge being increased by God', even if we have some difficulty in put it all together. There being so many different versions today might be seen as a sign that even more understanding will come to us at some point in the future. The end of that would seem to be when Re:10 has the end to the mystery about God taken away.
That verse is also the same time as the 7th trump of ch:11 and the 6th seal, this is how the righteous would see His return.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 3:39:14 AM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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So, I've been going over everything with ridiculous detail. I revamped the outline of how each prophecy was fulfilled, and it's now 17 pages. It's no longer in PDF format to download, I now have it hosted directly online, on Scribd, so the link won't make you download anything.
The new outline is HERE. I believe it details things satisfactorily, to anyone with the time and the energy to actually sit down and read it through.
< Message edited by Godkin -- 4/5/2009 11:39:22 AM >
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 10:16:23 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
So, I've been going over everything with ridiculous detail. I revamped the outline of how each prophecy was fulfilled, and it's now 17 pages. It's no longer in PDF format to download, I now have it hosted directly online, on Scribd, so the link won't make you download anything.
The new outline is HERE. I believe it details things satisfactorily, to anyone with the time and the energy to actually sit down and read it through.
This wasn't the first thing that caught my eye but it will do.
"The occupation of the city by Rome, beginning AD 70, accomplishes this. The described condition of the land persists until mere decades before its rebirth as a nation.".
What exact gifts did righteous people receive at that time (after the decades) and who was punished and how were they punished? I would have to go with nothing was increased over what was put into place by the time the last words to Revelation were written down. Gentiles became Christ's people, both the gathered and the not gathered a few years after the cross so that was not increased. The Church (RCC) remained involved in politics and business as much as any local leader of Rome ever was, even more-so in that the RCC eventually gained influence in most Nations of the world. At the death of the last true Apostle the world lost direct contact with Christ, were were left with prayer and a book. How has that changed to any extent?
Are OT verses about the Messiah coming as (a fighting/healing)King made manifest long ago? For instance how did this passage get fulfilled (become real).
Eze:37:1-13
The hand of the LORD was upon me,
and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD,
and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
And caused me to pass by them round about:
and,
behold,
there were very many in the open valley;
and, lo, they were very dry.
And he said unto me,
Son of man, can these bones live?
And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Again he said unto me,
Prophesy upon these bones,
and say unto them,
O ye dry bones,
hear the word of the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;
Behold,
I will cause breath to enter into you,
and ye shall live:
And I will lay sinews upon you,
and will bring up flesh upon you,
and cover you with skin,
and put breath in you,
and ye shall live;
and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
So I prophesied as I was commanded:
and as I prophesied,
there was a noise,
and behold a shaking,
and the bones came together,
bone to his bone.
And when I beheld,
lo,
the sinews and the flesh came up upon them,
and the skin covered them above:
but there was no breath in them.
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
The chapter then goes onto what happens after they become alive. That would cover about 5 more passages that would have to fall into place with this event.
Are you sure the 12,000 furlongs is not the total circumference of the base rather than the length of each individual side?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 11:29:19 AM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
This wasn't the first thing that caught my eye but it will do.
"The occupation of the city by Rome, beginning AD 70, accomplishes this. The described condition of the land persists until mere decades before its rebirth as a nation.".
What exact gifts did righteous people receive at that time (after the decades) and who was punished and how were they punished? I would have to go with nothing was increased over what was put into place by the time the last words to Revelation were written down. Gentiles became Christ's people, both the gathered and the not gathered a few years after the cross so that was not increased. The Church (RCC) remained involved in politics and business as much as any local leader of Rome ever was, even more-so in that the RCC eventually gained influence in most Nations of the world. At the death of the last true Apostle the world lost direct contact with Christ, were were left with prayer and a book. How has that changed to any extent?
The verse in question, which I should have had listed as Deuteronomy 29:22-28, rather than just verse 23, is describing Israel's destruction by the Roman armies in AD 70; it was to become a burning, barren wasteland. This was accomplished, and lasted up until just decades before Israel was reborn, in 1948. No gifts...no punishments...no increasing of anything...just destruction, which is what happened. What gifts/punishments am I supposed to be looking for here?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Are OT verses about the Messiah coming as (a fighting/healing)King made manifest long ago? For instance how did this passage get fulfilled (become real).
Eze:37:1-13
The hand of the LORD was upon me,
and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD,
and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
And caused me to pass by them round about:
and,
behold,
there were very many in the open valley;
and, lo, they were very dry.
And he said unto me,
Son of man, can these bones live?
And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Again he said unto me,
Prophesy upon these bones,
and say unto them,
O ye dry bones,
hear the word of the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;
Behold,
I will cause breath to enter into you,
and ye shall live:
And I will lay sinews upon you,
and will bring up flesh upon you,
and cover you with skin,
and put breath in you,
and ye shall live;
and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
So I prophesied as I was commanded:
and as I prophesied,
there was a noise,
and behold a shaking,
and the bones came together,
bone to his bone.
And when I beheld,
lo,
the sinews and the flesh came up upon them,
and the skin covered them above:
but there was no breath in them.
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
The chapter then goes onto what happens after they become alive. That would cover about 5 more passages that would have to fall into place with this event.
This was mentioned in the section about Ezekiel. It was fulfilled when Israel was reborn as a nation, in 1948.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Are you sure the 12,000 furlongs is not the total circumference of the base rather than the length of each individual side?
I don't know, I just wrote what the Scriptures say ("... and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal" - Revelation 21:16, YLT). Doesn't really matter.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 12:53:42 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The verse in question, which I should have had listed as Deuteronomy 29:22-28, rather than just verse 23, is describing Israel's destruction by the Roman armies in AD 70; it was to become a burning, barren wasteland. This was accomplished, and lasted up until just decades before Israel was reborn, in 1948. No gifts...no punishments...no increasing of anything...just destruction, which is what happened. What gifts/punishments am I supposed to be looking for here?
Those verses from Eze:37 are about a physical resurrection. We are obviously well short of that mark.
You contend that the iron/clay kingdom came to pass some decades after 70AD, the Bible has a number of promises that relate to that very event, the change from the iron to Christ ruling. There should be a temple made by Christ, there should be a great fiver flowing from that temple to the Dead and Med Seas, there should be fresh water fish in the Dead Sea, there should be trees lining the bank that are for healing, there should be eternal life for anybody who drinks that water, there should be every last person who ever belonged to the 12 tribes up and walking around interacting with everybody else who is alive and all sinners should be dead and the temple, river and resurrections happen on day one of that change. You have some 6 decades where none of that has even happened.
One day that is how fast the Bible says it will happen.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Rewards and punishments like above.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
I don't know, I just wrote what the Scriptures say ("... and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal" - Revelation 21:16, YLT). Doesn't really matter.
Not at the moment no, only that 12,000/side is not carved in stone it is an interpretation by man.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 1:19:16 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Those verses from Eze:37 are about a physical resurrection. We are obviously well short of that mark.
You contend that the iron/clay kingdom came to pass some decades after 70AD, the Bible has a number of promises that relate to that very event, the change from the iron to Christ ruling. There should be a temple made by Christ, there should be a great fiver flowing from that temple to the Dead and Med Seas, there should be fresh water fish in the Dead Sea, there should be trees lining the bank that are for healing, there should be eternal life for anybody who drinks that water, there should be every last person who ever belonged to the 12 tribes up and walking around interacting with everybody else who is alive and all sinners should be dead and the temple, river and resurrections happen on day one of that change. You have some 6 decades where none of that has even happened.
One day that is how fast the Bible says it will happen.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Rewards and punishments like above.
Ezekiel is talking about the resurrection of the nation of Israel. It's a prophecy...a symbol. There's no literal resurrection of the dead mentioned here, just the return of the land of Israel to its people, to never again be divided.
Also, the promises made to them (from verses 22/23 on, as well as all other promises of eternal, peaceful prosperity) will come to pass in the new Jerusalem. Israel is a nation, but it still hasn't been fully given back its blessings from the Lord, because the Church, His Bride, is still at work.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Not at the moment no, only that 12,000/side is not carved in stone it is an interpretation by man.
I fixed that. I didn't mean to make it sound that each side was 12,000 furlongs, I was just rewriting what the verse says...it now reads "The city lies foursquare, and the length is as long as the breadth, and the height, and the measure of the city is twelve-thousand furlongs...."
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/5/2009 2:52:52 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Ezekiel is talking about the resurrection of the nation of Israel. It's a prophecy...a symbol. There's no literal resurrection of the dead mentioned here, just the return of the land of Israel to its people, to never again be divided.
Also, the promises made to them (from verses 22/23 on, as well as all other promises of eternal, peaceful prosperity) will come to pass in the new Jerusalem. Israel is a nation, but it still hasn't been fully given back its blessings from the Lord, because the Church, His Bride, is still at work.
Well no it isn't, here is their first chore,
Eze:39:7-15
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;
and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more:
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
the Holy One in Israel.
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth,
and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers,
the bows and the arrows,
and the handstaves,
and the spears,
and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
So that they shall take no wood out of the field,
neither cut down any out of the forests;
for they shall burn the weapons with fire:
and they shall spoil those that spoiled them,
and rob those that robbed them,
saith the Lord GOD.
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel,
the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea:
and it shall stop the noses of the passengers:
and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude:
and they shall call it The valley of Hamon-gog.
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them,
that they may cleanse the land.
Yea,
all the people of the land shall bury them;
and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified,
saith the Lord GOD.
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.
And the passengers that pass through the land,
when any seeth a man's bone,
then shall he set up a sign by it,
till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.
Or that this Temple doesn't get built as a sign that Christ owns the block.
Zec:6:12:
And speak unto him, saying,
Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts,
saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
and he shall grow up out of his place,
and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec:6:13:
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
and he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
and he shall be a priest upon his throne:
and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Or that the salt sea is made fresh (how wide is the river)
Eze:47:8-12:
Then said he unto me,
These waters issue out toward the east country,
and go down into the desert,
and go into the sea:
which being brought forth into the sea,
the waters shall be healed.
Eze:47:9:
And it shall come to pass,
that every thing that liveth,
which moveth,
whithersoever the rivers shall come,
shall live:
and there shall be a very great multitude of fish,
because these waters shall come thither:
for they shall be healed;
and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze:47:10:
And it shall come to pass,
that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim;
they shall be a place to spread forth nets;
their fish shall be according to their kinds,
as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
Eze:47:11:
But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed;
they shall be given to salt.
Eze:47:12:
And by the river upon the bank thereof,
on this side and on that side,
shall grow all trees for meat,
whose leaf shall not fade,
neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary:
and the fruit thereof shall be for meat,
and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Or that the dead are gathered before the living (a few chapters in the NT)
1Co:15:12:
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead,
how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co:15:13:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead,
then is Christ not risen:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
I fixed that. I didn't mean to make it sound that each side was 12,000 furlongs, I was just rewriting what the verse says...it now reads "The city lies foursquare, and the length is as long as the breadth, and the height, and the measure of the city is twelve-thousand furlongs...."
I can't be as objective as a fellow preterist would be, nice looking and easy to understand document though, for as much as I have read. I can't say for sure that it isn't 12,000/side. Here is another similar verse, who loses their lives, the teachers, the students or both?
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.
Da:11:34:
Now when they shall fall,
they shall be holpen with a little help:
but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Da:11:35:
And some of them of understanding shall fall,
to try them,
and to purge,
and to make them white,
even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 1:10:20 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Well no it isn't, here is their first chore,
Eze:39:7-15
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;
and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more:
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
the Holy One in Israel.
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth,
and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers,
the bows and the arrows,
and the handstaves,
and the spears,
and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
So that they shall take no wood out of the field,
neither cut down any out of the forests;
for they shall burn the weapons with fire:
and they shall spoil those that spoiled them,
and rob those that robbed them,
saith the Lord GOD.
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel,
the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea:
and it shall stop the noses of the passengers:
and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude:
and they shall call it The valley of Hamon-gog.
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them,
that they may cleanse the land.
Yea,
all the people of the land shall bury them;
and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified,
saith the Lord GOD.
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.
And the passengers that pass through the land,
when any seeth a man's bone,
then shall he set up a sign by it,
till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.
That's the aftermath of the Magog Invasion. Since it doesn't seem to have occurred yet (the world now, including Israel, certainly doesn't know that God is real and that He is the God of Israel, and no event in history, that I'm aware of, matches the prophecy), it's still to come. Also, it immediately follows the resurrection of Israel as a nation, so it can't have occurred any early than 1948. I identify this with the brief mention of Magog in Revelation, making it an expanded image of the Final Rebellion, just prior to the "Great White Throne" Judgment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Or that this Temple doesn't get built as a sign that Christ owns the block.
Zec:6:12:
And speak unto him, saying,
Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts,
saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
and he shall grow up out of his place,
and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec:6:13:
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
and he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
and he shall be a priest upon his throne:
and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
In the new Jerusalem, God and the Lamb are the Temple of it. This is the temple they raise in this verse.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Or that the salt sea is made fresh (how wide is the river)
Eze:47:8-12:
Then said he unto me,
These waters issue out toward the east country,
and go down into the desert,
and go into the sea:
which being brought forth into the sea,
the waters shall be healed.
Eze:47:9:
And it shall come to pass,
that every thing that liveth,
which moveth,
whithersoever the rivers shall come,
shall live:
and there shall be a very great multitude of fish,
because these waters shall come thither:
for they shall be healed;
and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze:47:10:
And it shall come to pass,
that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim;
they shall be a place to spread forth nets;
their fish shall be according to their kinds,
as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
Eze:47:11:
But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed;
they shall be given to salt.
Eze:47:12:
And by the river upon the bank thereof,
on this side and on that side,
shall grow all trees for meat,
whose leaf shall not fade,
neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary:
and the fruit thereof shall be for meat,
and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Sounds like an accurate description of the new Jerusalem to me. The new Earth has no larger seas, according to John, but, apparently, it has lesser ones of fresh water...lakes, and ponds, and, of course, a River of the Water of Life, on either side of which grows the Tree of Life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Or that the dead are gathered before the living (a few chapters in the NT)
1Co:15:12:
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead,
how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co:15:13:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead,
then is Christ not risen:
The saved dead were resurrected in AD 70. Why don't we see them? Because they were taken up into heaven. The second resurrection occurs after the Final Rebellion, at the "Great White Throne" Judgment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
I can't be as objective as a fellow preterist would be, nice looking and easy to understand document though, for as much as I have read. I can't say for sure that it isn't 12,000/side. Here is another similar verse, who loses their lives, the teachers, the students or both?
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.
Da:11:34:
Now when they shall fall,
they shall be holpen with a little help:
but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Da:11:35:
And some of them of understanding shall fall,
to try them,
and to purge,
and to make them white,
even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed.
It seems the popular way to "measure" a city was to measure its perimeter. So, to say the measure of the city is 12000 furlongs, and that it lays foursquare, is to say each side is 3000 furlongs. Also, to say "the length, and the breadth, and the height of it are equal" is likely a way of saying that each is even (perpendicular, for the length and width, or level, for the height) along its own measure...that is, the length is everywhere 3000 furlongs, the width is everywhere 3000 furlongs, and the height is everywhere 144 cubits (as we're told in the next verse). We're only told directly that the length is as long as the width, earlier in verse 16.
As for the verse in Daniel. First, as a side note, the first verse would be better suited to the original Hebrew to read "And they with the authority to cause others to understand do instruct many...," which implies that they are specially ordained teachers.
In both cases, it is the teachers who fall. In the first case (verses 33-34), they fall because of physical things - sword, flame, captivity, and spoil. In the second case (verse 35), they fall because of their attempts to help people. This is, of course, also how history records it was fulfilled.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 3:39:22 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
That's the aftermath of the Magog Invasion. Since it doesn't seem to have occurred yet (the world now, including Israel, certainly doesn't know that God is real and that He is the God of Israel, and no event in history, that I'm aware of, matches the prophecy), it's still to come. Also, it immediately follows the resurrection of Israel as a nation, so it can't have occurred any early than 1948. I identify this with the brief mention of Magog in Revelation, making it an expanded image of the Final Rebellion, just prior to the "Great White Throne" Judgment.
Those two places come to exist just after Christ's return. Gog is the new valley in which the river also flows. Israel is said to rob those who robbed them, the only way to rob a dead person is to take away their chance at salvation. By putting them in this one place they will come alive at the same time Satan is released, they will also go into the lake at the same time. The rest of men only come alive after this part is over so they cannot be Satan's followers during that little season. They is a slightly different bunch in Magog but it is also a real place that is also in Israel for the whole 1,000 years. When people come for the yearly feast they will see these places and know how much time is left before Satan is released. In the New Earth (which is required for New Jerusalem to exist) there is no memory of past events. Satan isn't going to be forgotten about until he is in the lake and Judgment Day is complete, then everything prior to the unveiling of New things can be forgotten.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Or that this Temple doesn't get built as a sign that Christ owns the block.
Zec:6:12:
And speak unto him, saying,
Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts,
saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
and he shall grow up out of his place,
and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec:6:13:
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
and he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
and he shall be a priest upon his throne:
and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
In the new Jerusalem, God and the Lamb are the Temple of it. This is the temple they raise in this verse.
That temple is raised by one person, New Jerusalem exists in Heaven today. Christ will rule the earth for 1,000 years before anybody meets God face-to-face.
Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec:14:17:
And it shall be,
that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
even upon them shall be no rain.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Or that the salt sea is made fresh (how wide is the river)
Eze:47:8-12:
Then said he unto me,
These waters issue out toward the east country,
and go down into the desert,
and go into the sea:
which being brought forth into the sea,
the waters shall be healed.
Eze:47:9:
And it shall come to pass,
that every thing that liveth,
which moveth,
whithersoever the rivers shall come,
shall live:
and there shall be a very great multitude of fish,
because these waters shall come thither:
for they shall be healed;
and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze:47:10:
And it shall come to pass,
that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim;
they shall be a place to spread forth nets;
their fish shall be according to their kinds,
as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
Eze:47:11:
But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed;
they shall be given to salt.
Eze:47:12:
And by the river upon the bank thereof,
on this side and on that side,
shall grow all trees for meat,
whose leaf shall not fade,
neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary:
and the fruit thereof shall be for meat,
and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Sounds like an accurate description of the new Jerusalem to me. The new Earth has no larger seas, according to John, but, apparently, it has lesser ones of fresh water...lakes, and ponds, and, of course, a River of the Water of Life, on either side of which grows the Tree of Life.
The seas are taken away at Christ's return. The blood of a dead man is not liquid any longer it is solid enough to be walked on which is what some people out in the farthest parts of the earth will have to do, walk to Jerusalem. (not a hardship when you have immortal flesh)
Re:16:3:
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea;
and it became as the blood of a dead man:
and every living soul died in the sea.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Or that the dead are gathered before the living (a few chapters in the NT)
1Co:15:12:
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead,
how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co:15:13:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead,
then is Christ not risen:
The saved dead were resurrected in AD 70. Why don't we see them? Because they were taken up into heaven. The second resurrection occurs after the Final Rebellion, at the "Great White Throne" Judgment.
That might have been the 24 elders that are around the Throne They could be the 24 oldest lived righteous people named in Scripture. That resurrection was well short of the whole house of Israel. The time of the Gentiles was just beginning, that is an event associated with the ending. Resurrected people stay on earth for the 1,000 years, the first time anybody from the end-times gets to Heaven is after the thousand years is over.
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
I can't be as objective as a fellow preterist would be, nice looking and easy to understand document though, for as much as I have read. I can't say for sure that it isn't 12,000/side. Here is another similar verse, who loses their lives, the teachers, the students or both?
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.
Da:11:34:
Now when they shall fall,
they shall be holpen with a little help:
but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Da:11:35:
And some of them of understanding shall fall,
to try them,
and to purge,
and to make them white,
even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed.
It seems the popular way to "measure" a city was to measure its perimeter. So, to say the measure of the city is 12000 furlongs, and that it lays foursquare, is to say each side is 3000 furlongs. Also, to say "the length, and the breadth, and the height of it are equal" is likely a way of saying that each is even (perpendicular, for the length and width, or level, for the height) along its own measure...that is, the length is everywhere 3000 furlongs, the width is everywhere 3000 furlongs, and the height is everywhere 144 cubits (as we're told in the next verse). We're only told directly that the length is as long as the width, earlier in verse 16.
Either one would be quite impressive. The verses I reference point to the new things coming into play only after Judgment Day, a new start after everything to do with the old world has been taken care of. Sin and death being absent , New Jerusalem should land on a barren world, quite like it was before Adam in Ge:2.
I'm pretty sure when people first enter New Jerusalem it is still in Heaven, man gets to Heaven just prior to Judgment Day taking place. For some it is after being with Christ for a thousand years and for others it is at Judgment Day itself. The ones God has mercy on then are the ones who live in the new earth outside new Jerusalem. (after the first time it can just be called Jerusalem and earth). God doesn't offer them the run of Jerusalem more than the right to enter. The ones alive for 1,000 years are offered the position of servants as priests and kings to God and the Lamb. the 144,000 never leave Christ's side, the city should operate the same way Christ ruled Israel (for the 1,000) and the Nations that came to visit would be equal to the ones who live outside new Jerusalem in the new earth. The ones in the Nations that are alive for the 1,000 are also inside the city on a permanent basis.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
As for the verse in Daniel. First, as a side note, the first verse would be better suited to the original Hebrew to read "And they with the authority to cause others to understand do instruct many...," which implies that they are specially ordained teachers.
In both cases, it is the teachers who fall. In the first case (verses 33-34), they fall because of physical things - sword, flame, captivity, and spoil. In the second case (verse 35), they fall because of their attempts to help people. This is, of course, also how history records it was fulfilled.
I agree they would be more than 'readers', I would see us as being the smallest in this next verse.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The teachers during the 5th and 6th trumps would need some sort of help from God, angels are said to preach the Gospel in the last days (as in the 3 in Re:14. They certainly couldn't be killed but those that understand them do not get immunity from death.. That same chapter also says if a person dies while in flight from taking the mark and they are killed it will be remembered as they were in flight and not as if they were about to take the mark.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.
Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The two witnesses can be tied to the references in Zec:4 then they know about everything going on an even from Jerusalem they can act on it. That might also include hearing and answering earnest prayers. (that might also fall on the 7 angels from the 7 churches) This verse seems to indicate they were not necessarily restricted to seeing just what was in front of them.
Zec:4:10:
For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall rejoice,
and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven;
they are the eyes of the LORD,
which run to and fro through the whole earth.
There are even a few verse that might be taken as a guideline of what life in the wilderness in a time of tribulation might be like. Once the verse about baking bread with only dried human dung and not dried animal dung the conversation usually ends right about there. If it was followed further it would seem like ther will be small pockets that will be a sanctuary for believers. Being out in the forefront is not the job of those that fear God, there are others in this verse that are qualified for those types of things. Back in the time of the Apostles when an Apostle taught somebody they did not acquire Apostle status. If a person breaks a law they are just asked to leave and make it on their own, their odds of survival without sinning just took a nose-dive.
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 4/6/2009 5:36:41 PM >
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 4:13:10 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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I get the feeling we could keep going back and forth like this until either Christ returns, immediately followed by the Millennial Reign, or until the armies of Satan encompass Israel and are destroyed, immediately followed by the Final Judgment. Though, either way, I wouldn't complain.
One thing to note, however...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.
Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 11 is fulfilled. I think that's pretty much the clearest fulfillment of anything in all of Scripture. Even as much as I detail its fulfillment in that document of mine, my source for that is a website much more thorough than I could ever hope to be. From the first three kings of Persia to the king of Daniel 11:45, King Herod the Great, it was all fulfilled in 600 years up to 4 BC.
Then, in Chapter 12, Daniel starts off by saying, "And at that time...." At what time? Well...at the time of the death of King Herod the Great, which, itself, is at the time of the birth of Christ. Michael, who stands up for the "children of thy people" in Israel, is Christ, the Messiah, who lives, dies, and lives again for the sins of everyone. He came to save the Jews - but the Jews couldn't be saved. So, there was "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." Christ refers to this in His Olivet Discourse, where he declares that the Temple, and all of Jerusalem, will be destroyed. He says that "this generation will not pass until all of these things have come to pass." He also promised that many of those with Him then would see Him come again in the clouds. Jesus promised to come back for His people...not 2000 years later, but within the lifetimes of those people He promised to come back for.
What happens at the "time of trouble"? The dead are raised, just as is said to happen at the return of Christ. The time of trouble was the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, Christ came with the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, the dead were raised with the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, all prophecy pertaining to, and leading up to, the Second Coming of Christ was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, in AD 70.
People can interpret the rest of Scripture, and the rest of prophecy, however they want to fit their theories, but this is the basic fact. Daniel said it. Christ, Himself, said it. He returned in AD 70, and, with Him, He brought His Kingdom...and, as per John 18:36, "My kingdom is not of this world." And now, according to Matthew 21:43, the Kingdom is taken from the Jews and given to someone who will do its work. This us, the Church. We are the Kingdom. This is our Millennial Reign.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2009 7:13:43 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
I get the feeling we could keep going back and forth like this until either Christ returns, immediately followed by the Millennial Reign, or until the armies of Satan encompass Israel and are destroyed, immediately followed by the Final Judgment. Though, either way, I wouldn't complain.
Lets hope all mystery is gone when that verse from Re;10 comes to pass. I'll try my best not to burden you with repeat after repeat. I only have so much reference material on any one subject. I wish I could give you a really detailed paper on how the end works. It basically has everything about the iron/clay happening in 3 1/2 years. That means all those wars in Da:11 take place in that same time. The end of Da:11 is the 7th trump, the end of satanic rule and the beginning of eternal peace, while still finding room for a laugh or two. In the next 12 book every reference to 'that day' is about the day mentioned in Da:12. The separation of the wheat and chaff. This is how through Christ's army of Angels is at searching out that everybody is accounted for by the end of their search.
Joe:2:1-12
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion,
and sound an alarm in my holy mountain:
let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:
for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
A day of darkness and of gloominess,
a day of clouds and of thick darkness,
as the morning spread upon the mountains:
a great people and a strong;
there hath not been ever the like,
neither shall be any more after it,
even to the years of many generations.
A fire devoureth before them;
and behind them a flame burneth:
the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them a desolate wilderness;
yea, and nothing shall escape them.
The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses;
and as horsemen,
so shall they run.
Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap,
like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble,
as a strong people set in battle array.
Before their face the people shall be much pained:
all faces shall gather blackness.
They shall run like mighty men;
they shall climb the wall like men of war;
and they shall march every one on his ways,
and they shall not break their ranks:
Neither shall one thrust another;
they shall walk every one in his path:
and when they fall upon the sword,
they shall not be wounded.
They shall run to and fro in the city;
they shall run upon the wall,
they shall climb up upon the houses;
they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
The earth shall quake before them;
the heavens shall tremble:
the sun and the moon shall be dark,
and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army:
for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word:
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
and who can abide it?
Therefore also now,
saith the LORD,
turn ye even to me with all your heart,
and with fasting,
and with weeping,
and with mourning:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel 11 is fulfilled. I think that's pretty much the clearest fulfillment of anything in all of Scripture. Even as much as I detail its fulfillment in that document of mine, my source for that is a website much more thorough than I could ever hope to be. From the first three kings of Persia to the king of Daniel 11:45, King Herod the Great, it was all fulfilled in 600 years up to 4 BC.
I've read a few articles that were very detailed, some even had the numbers for how many died in each of those battles. Too bad they were in the wrong chapter. That should have been in the one about the brass. The 4th king being referenced is Satan, the first king of the iron. Each metal kingdom has at least one chapter detailing it more, that holds for the gold, silver and the brass actually has two chapters, 8&9. The only chapter that can be about the iron is 11. Herod was never a king, Rome was Jerusalem's authority in 4BC, anything that Herod did had Rome's approval.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Then, in Chapter 12, Daniel starts off by saying, "And at that time...." At what time? Well...at the time of the death of King Herod the Great, which, itself, is at the time of the birth of Christ. Michael, who stands up for the "children of thy people" in Israel, is Christ, the Messiah, who lives, dies, and lives again for the sins of everyone.
Da:12:1 is a continuation of Da:11:45, it is the same passage, the end of the passage is Da:12:4. The time of the person not getting help is the same time that people do start getting resurrected, the two witnesses are the first to be helped and 7,000 are killed. By the end of the vails of Re:16 the righteous have been resurrected. They are the sealed names in the little book that is read aloud after the 7th trump sounds. Both events can be completed by the same point in time, scripture even gives the time, one day. Once that is done all the ones who will be alive for the 1,000 years are alive, everyone else is asleep or in hell. The time of Jesus was in ch:9, that covers the cross and the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The iron kingdom hasn't even been touched yet.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
He came to save the Jews - but the Jews couldn't be saved. So, there was "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." Christ refers to this in His Olivet Discourse, where he declares that the Temple, and all of Jerusalem, will be destroyed.
They were saved in the respect that God did keep His covenant about sending a Messiah. Where things got confused is the Jews were not expecting God to send a Priest instead of a King. They thought they had the temple angle covered, Jesus said it was otherwise on several occasions. His first act after coming from the 40 days in the wilderness was to overturn the tables of the money-changers. The Jews were under the impression that they would rule over the Gentiles rather than the Gentiles being made equal to them. There are subtle clues that Gentiles will be included but nothing that blatantly says very equal to Israel. After God determined that some would be saved it was a minor thing to include more people. Israel (the remnant of mankind) is saved in order that the larger group can be also saved but at a later date. Without a remnant something could be lost forever. Noah was the last that was perfectly like Adam, everybody else was tainted by fallen angels or their children or their children. Had Noah been lost there would have been no people that were pure Adam so no Messiah because all flesh was corrupt.
Isa:40:15:
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
He says that "this generation will not pass until all of these things have come to pass." He also promised that many of those with Him then would see Him come again in the clouds. Jesus promised to come back for His people...not 2000 years later, but within the lifetimes of those people He promised to come back for.
He actually indicated this twice, the first time was after the vision of Moses and Elijah on the mountain. To the ones that head it Peter later received the vision that told him Gentiles were clean in Christ's eyes. John certainly say Christ in all His power, even if in vision John still has as close a relationship with Christ as Christ had with God during His ministry. That can be said of any that are mentioned in the NT as being associated with the promotion of the NT Gospel. Would that qualify as being fulfilled since Jesus used the words 'some of you will not die before...'. For the other reference it depends which Gospel is being referenced, if He was addressing the priests it would have meant those very people and some that were about 30 would have seen the events of 40 years later. If he was addressing some that witness certain events associated with His return then it means His return will be within the lifetime of those that see those events (in the heavens)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
What happens at the "time of trouble"? The dead are raised, just as is said to happen at the return of Christ. The time of trouble was the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, Christ came with the destruction of Jerusalem.
In a time of trouble people are being sent into death, like the deaths all those wars mentioned would cause in all of Da:11 (Revelations can point to many deaths before Christ returns), it would be the righteous that would be at risk then, when it is the vials being poured out the righteous could be right next to somebody they affect without being affected themselves. Christ judges mankind as individuals.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Therefore, the dead were raised with the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, all prophecy pertaining to, and leading up to, the Second Coming of Christ was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, in AD 70.
I'm going to need a few pages of Scripture that points to this (you article will suffice) I assume you would agree that if the verses from the end of Da:9 can show the destruction then Da:12 is about something else entirely, like events just prior to His return, 3 /2 years to be precise.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
People can interpret the rest of Scripture, and the rest of prophecy, however they want to fit their theories, but this is the basic fact. Daniel said it. Christ, Himself, said it. He returned in AD 70, and, with Him, He brought His Kingdom...and, as per John 18:36, "My kingdom is not of this world." And now, according to Matthew 21:43, the Kingdom is taken from the Jews and given to someone who will do its work. This us, the Church. We are the Kingdom. This is our Millennial Reign.
So His being a 'Prince ' at the time of 70AD would mean He wasn't yet given the Kings crown by God (that happens on the day that only God knows). In 70AD Rome had received the Gospel, Romans:13 defines who God left in charge of keeping evil at bay, the Governments of the Nations are the servants of God. That is who we pay, that is That doesn't mean they rule with divine help.
The people of the prince to come is Rome. Jesus doesn't build-up and tear-down at the same time, at least not in this instance.
Da:9:26:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Ro:13:6:
For for this cause pay ye tribute also:
for they are God's ministers,
attending continually upon this very thing.
Ro:13:7:
Render therefore to all their dues:
tribute to whom tribute is due;
custom to whom custom;
fear to whom fear;
honour to whom honour.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/7/2009 11:46:33 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Lets hope all mystery is gone when that verse from Re;10 comes to pass. I'll try my best not to burden you with repeat after repeat. I only have so much reference material on any one subject. I wish I could give you a really detailed paper on how the end works. It basically has everything about the iron/clay happening in 3 1/2 years. That means all those wars in Da:11 take place in that same time. The end of Da:11 is the 7th trump, the end of satanic rule and the beginning of eternal peace, while still finding room for a laugh or two. In the next 12 book every reference to 'that day' is about the day mentioned in Da:12. The separation of the wheat and chaff. This is how through Christ's army of Angels is at searching out that everybody is accounted for by the end of their search.
Joe:2:1-12
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion,
and sound an alarm in my holy mountain:
let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:
for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
A day of darkness and of gloominess,
a day of clouds and of thick darkness,
as the morning spread upon the mountains:
a great people and a strong;
there hath not been ever the like,
neither shall be any more after it,
even to the years of many generations.
A fire devoureth before them;
and behind them a flame burneth:
the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them a desolate wilderness;
yea, and nothing shall escape them.
The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses;
and as horsemen,
so shall they run.
Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap,
like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble,
as a strong people set in battle array.
Before their face the people shall be much pained:
all faces shall gather blackness.
They shall run like mighty men;
they shall climb the wall like men of war;
and they shall march every one on his ways,
and they shall not break their ranks:
Neither shall one thrust another;
they shall walk every one in his path:
and when they fall upon the sword,
they shall not be wounded.
They shall run to and fro in the city;
they shall run upon the wall,
they shall climb up upon the houses;
they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
The earth shall quake before them;
the heavens shall tremble:
the sun and the moon shall be dark,
and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army:
for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word:
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
and who can abide it?
Therefore also now,
saith the LORD,
turn ye even to me with all your heart,
and with fasting,
and with weeping,
and with mourning:
Of course, a scene of horsemen prepared for battle, and surrounding towns, was seen in the clouds just prior to the start of the Jewish Revolt, in AD 66. A great people, who devour with fire, and climb the walls of the city, searching through homes, who cause the sun, the moon, and the stars to stop shining...sounds like the Roman armies and their ensuing destruction of Jerusalem to me. It's the period of tribulation - the sun turns black, and the moon does not give its light...this happened when Jerusalem was destroyed and the smoke was so thick it blacked out the sky, and that appears to be what Joel 2 is describing. And if any of them fall on a sword, no harm comes to them...this is because they are there to achieve a purpose, and no retaliation from the Jews can stop them.
Also, the problem with man-made theories on "how the end works" is that man has no idea how the end works. All we can do is guess based on what Scripture says, and Scripture appears to say that Christ came in AD 70.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
I've read a few articles that were very detailed, some even had the numbers for how many died in each of those battles. Too bad they were in the wrong chapter. That should have been in the one about the brass. The 4th king being referenced is Satan, the first king of the iron. Each metal kingdom has at least one chapter detailing it more, that holds for the gold, silver and the brass actually has two chapters, 8&9. The only chapter that can be about the iron is 11. Herod was never a king, Rome was Jerusalem's authority in 4BC, anything that Herod did had Rome's approval.
Daniel goes like this:
Chapter 2 - Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is Babylon
Chapter 7 - Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is Rome
Chapter 8 - Persia, Macedonia -> the focus is Macedonia
Chapter 9 - Persia, Rome (with Macedonia, unmentioned, in between) -> the focus is Christ, and Israel
Chapter 11 - Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is on Macedonia
The prophecies have an order, but they're not centred around each of the metals of the statue Nebuchadnezzar saw. They're ordered by the stages in which God chose to reveal them...
The first was for Nebuchadnezzar, to more or less feed his ego. It was the least detailed, and gave a summary of kingdoms to come.
The second was to show Daniel the kingdoms yet to rise upon the earth in more detail, especially the one that would go on to be the most evil.
The third was to detail the end of the empire that was ruling at the time, followed by the rise of the next, which would give rise to one who would persecute the Jews.
The fourth spans the time between Persia and Rome, detailing how long they had before the Messiah would come and their Holy City would be destroyed.
The fourth goes one step further and details the span from Persia to Rome.
There is a pattern, but the statue of Nebuchadnezzar is only the first part of it.
And, in fact Herod I the Great was a king. He was a client king of Rome, and he was the first of a dynasty. That's why he's called "King Herod". He also did everything described in Daniel 11 from verse 36 on. Chapter 35 leads directly into Herod, as the last of the "ones who had understanding" to be killed, which is what's being described in verse 35, was killed at the command of King Herod.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Da:12:1 is a continuation of Da:11:45, it is the same passage, the end of the passage is Da:12:4. The time of the person not getting help is the same time that people do start getting resurrected, the two witnesses are the first to be helped and 7,000 are killed. By the end of the vails of Re:16 the righteous have been resurrected. They are the sealed names in the little book that is read aloud after the 7th trump sounds. Both events can be completed by the same point in time, scripture even gives the time, one day. Once that is done all the ones who will be alive for the 1,000 years are alive, everyone else is asleep or in hell. The time of Jesus was in ch:9, that covers the cross and the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The iron kingdom hasn't even been touched yet.
Exactly, thank you for restating what I said. And the person not getting helped is King Herod.
Yes, the time of Jesus was in Chapter 9, but there's no rule in the Bible (or in Daniel, even, for that matter) that one event can only be mentioned in one prophecy. Important things are stated and restated again, numerous times...the time of Christ, and the actions of the kingdom ruling at the time, was the most important of all, so naturally it was the focus of both Chapter 9 and Chapter 12, which cover the same periods of time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
They were saved in the respect that God did keep His covenant about sending a Messiah. Where things got confused is the Jews were not expecting God to send a Priest instead of a King. They thought they had the temple angle covered, Jesus said it was otherwise on several occasions. His first act after coming from the 40 days in the wilderness was to overturn the tables of the money-changers. The Jews were under the impression that they would rule over the Gentiles rather than the Gentiles being made equal to them. There are subtle clues that Gentiles will be included but nothing that blatantly says very equal to Israel. After God determined that some would be saved it was a minor thing to include more people. Israel (the remnant of mankind) is saved in order that the larger group can be also saved but at a later date. Without a remnant something could be lost forever. Noah was the last that was perfectly like Adam, everybody else was tainted by fallen angels or their children or their children. Had Noah been lost there would have been no people that were pure Adam so no Messiah because all flesh was corrupt.
Isa:40:15:
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
God keeping His part of the covenant didn't save the Jews. Israel's failure to uphold its end of the agreement lead to God's judgment of the Jews in AD 70, when Christ returned to save those few who had faith in Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
In a time of trouble people are being sent into death, like the deaths all those wars mentioned would cause in all of Da:11 (Revelations can point to many deaths before Christ returns), it would be the righteous that would be at risk then, when it is the vials being poured out the righteous could be right next to somebody they affect without being affected themselves. Christ judges mankind as individuals.
The wars of Daniel 11 certainly did cause a lot of deaths...2500 years ago, when they happened.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
I'm going to need a few pages of Scripture that points to this (you article will suffice) I assume you would agree that if the verses from the end of Da:9 can show the destruction then Da:12 is about something else entirely, like events just prior to His return, 3 /2 years to be precise.
Daniel isn't having one giant Revelation, like John. Daniel is given a bunch of separate revelations, and there's nothing anywhere that says that they can't possibly be talking about the same events. In fact, they are overlapping, giving more and more detail each time, from the basic "4 kingdoms rise" in Daniel 2 and 7 to focusing in on the most important things in Daniel 9 and 11-12.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 12:46:55 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Of course, a scene of horsemen prepared for battle, and surrounding towns, was seen in the clouds just prior to the start of the Jewish Revolt, in AD 66. A great people, who devour with fire, and climb the walls of the city, searching through homes, who cause the sun, the moon, and the stars to stop shining...sounds like the Roman armies and their ensuing destruction of Jerusalem to me.
It's the period of tribulation - the sun turns black, and the moon does not give its light...this happened when Jerusalem was destroyed and the smoke was so thick it blacked out the sky, and that appears to be what Joel 2 is describing. And if any of them fall on a sword, no harm comes to them...this is because they are there to achieve a purpose, and no retaliation from the Jews can stop them.
Except for the problem that Joel is the rescue of Jerusalem and not the destruction. Who is being destroyed would be whoever owns the sword when Christ comes. Later in the chapter is not later in the sequence of events, they are back to back, the wicked are swept up before the righteous (resurrected Israel) are brought into the land. These verse above would also have had to become real in 70 AD
Joe:2:21:
Fear not,
O land;
be glad and rejoice:
for the LORD will do great things.
Joe:2:22:
Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field:
for the pastures of the wilderness do spring,
for the tree beareth her fruit,
the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
Joe:2:23:
Be glad then,
ye children of Zion,
and rejoice in the LORD your God:
for he hath given you the former rain moderately,
and he will cause to come down for you the rain,
the former rain,
and the latter rain in the first month.
Joe:2:24:
And the floors shall be full of wheat,
and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe:2:25:
And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten,
the cankerworm,
and the caterpiller,
and the palmerworm,
my great army which I sent among you.
Joe:2:26:
And ye shall eat in plenty,
and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the LORD your God,
that hath dealt wondrously with you:
and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe:2:27:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the LORD your God,
and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
These verse above would also have had to become real in 70 AD, it didn't, it isn't even true today. The verse below is the 70AD destruction, something that happened in the brass. the same event as Da:9:27.
Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Also, the problem with man-made theories on "how the end works" is that man has no idea how the end works. All we can do is guess based on what Scripture says, and Scripture appears to say that Christ came in AD 70.
You can't even prove Revelation was written before 70AD. Actually when you take all the verses the Bible has about the years just prior to His return and about the day of His return it is a pretty clear picture. That view would come from men, it is not based on Scripture alone. Scripture alone would have a relationship between one subject mentioned in two successive chapters as being most likely related to one another.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel goes like this:It goes Neb....silver....brass....iron/clay.....Christ. That is all ch:2 gives us
Chapter 2 - Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is Babylon
You missed a few chapters, Daniel 3 is about Neb, Daniel and the furnace.
Daniel 4 is the chapter about the gold head of ch:2.
Da:4:1:
Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people,
nations,
and languages,
that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
Da:4:37:
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth,
and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Neb's son has the kingdom for a short while after Neb dies, it is taken from him by a king that is from the silver. The silver has two kings.
Da:5:31: And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.
Da:6:28: So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.
The brass is covered in ch:8.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 7 - Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is Rome
The focus is the iron/clay kingdom.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 8 - Persia, Macedonia -> the focus is Macedonia
Alex and then the next 4 (max) rulers over Jerusalem. Unfortunately that would also include Rome. I would be happy to post the NT verses that tell how those verses from Daniel 8 were fulfilled.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 9 - Persia, Rome (with Macedonia, unmentioned, in between) -> the focus is Christ, and Israel
Pretty much covers 500 years but brass is still the kingdom that is in power by the time the temple is destroyed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 11 - Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is on Macedonia
Satan, the Beast from the pit (both former angels), the whore of Babylon and the kings daughter of Da:11 are the same, the corrupt man is the False Prophet and the one who plucks up 3 of the 10 kings. etc, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The prophecies have an order, but they're not centred around each of the metals of the statue Nebuchadnezzar saw. They're ordered by the stages in which God chose to reveal them...
They follow the same order, the gold is first followed by silver, brass and iron in that order. The iron is so important there is even a little extra given about it in ch:2 & 8.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The first was for Nebuchadnezzar, to more or less feed his ego. It was the least detailed, and gave a summary of kingdoms to come.
Neb got a whole chapter, God also calls him 'my servant' in another OT book.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The second was to show Daniel the kingdoms yet to rise upon the earth in more detail, especially the one that would go on to be the most evil.
Since evil is not vanished it is quite okay to assume things get worse as time goes by.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The third was to detail the end of the empire that was ruling at the time, followed by the rise of the next, which would give rise to one who would persecute the Jews.
Do you mean more that taking them captive like Neb did? Rome does the same thing after the Messiah does what He came to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The fourth spans the time between Persia and Rome, detailing how long they had before the Messiah would come and their Holy City would be destroyed.
???? 4th
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The fourth goes one step further and details the span from Persia to Rome.
???? I'm lost on these two points.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
There is a pattern, but the statue of Nebuchadnezzar is only the first part of it.
That same pattern is covered again in Da:7, the separate beasts apply to the 4 metals of Da:2. The Beast from the Pit in Revelation can have these attributes because 'it' (being angelic) gives power to 10 men, (iron/clay).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
And, in fact Herod I the Great was a king. He was a client king of Rome, and he was the first of a dynasty. That's why he's called "King Herod". He also did everything described in Daniel 11 from verse 36 on. Chapter 35 leads directly into Herod, as the last of the "ones who had understanding" to be killed, which is what's being described in verse 35, was killed at the command of King Herod.
A fake king, so he wasn't commanding any forces, nor was his crown from the house of David. Rome was the only military force in the area.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Exactly, thank you for restating what I said. And the person not getting helped is King Herod.
Nope, sorry, Christ didn't destroy him. When it says at that time Michael stand up it is talking about the Angels who do the gathereing. Both the Elect and Desolate are gathered by Holy Angels, some are taken to Christ to be healed and given rewards, the others are sent to death or hell for the next 1,000 years. The ones who come alive at this time face Satan one more time, this time while in immortal bodies. The ones not alive only become alive after Satan is totally dealth with so as far as they are concerned they cannot be tempted to follow him into the lake.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Yes, the time of Jesus was in Chapter 9, but there's no rule in the Bible (or in Daniel, even, for that matter) that one event can only be mentioned in one prophecy.
Actually if something is mentioned once it is mentioned at least two more times, that works for evry piece of doctrine as far as I know.
M't:13:39:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
Even though they do the gathering any deaths are caused by Christ himself.
Isa:63:3:
I have trodden the winepress alone;
and of the people there was none with me:
for I will tread them in mine anger,
and trample them in my fury;
and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments,
and I will stain all my raiment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Important things are stated and restated again, numerous times...the time of Christ, and the actions of the kingdom ruling at the time, was the most important of all, so naturally it was the focus of both Chapter 9 and Chapter 12, which cover the same periods of time.
If they are restated why are you dismissing two references in ch:8 & 9 as being about the same thing, the removal of (the need for bolld) sacrifice. Today our offerred sacrifice is what we say when in prayer. The below is an example of two similar use the same word can be different. These are two separate abominations. The one from Da:12 is about the image in Revelation, the same incident is in IIThess:2. The one in Da:9 is Stephen's daeth and other things, more than one thing certainly.
Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
God keeping His part of the covenant didn't save the Jews. Israel's failure to uphold its end of the agreement lead to God's judgment of the Jews in AD 70, when Christ returned to save those few who had faith in Him.
Why look in Jerusalem for Christians then? There would have been none to be found, they all fled Jerusalem when this verse happened, by 70AD there probably wasn't any Christians in all of Israel.
Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.
Israel's habit of killing those sent to help them was (one of) the reasons they were exiled into Neb's Babylon. Satan's Babylon is a whole different game. Text from the NT have Satan and Rome acting in opposition, Satan would want Jesus to suffer under their rules, under their rules they wanted to release Him.
Anyway the attempt on Jeremiah's life is the reason there will be a battle with the armies of the world. Just as God used Neb to punish Israel back then it is the armies of the world (all the ones listed in Jer:25) that carry out what happens to Israel in the last days.
Armies + back turned = bad news. They better be wise enough to lay down their swords when asked by Christ. The 200M angelic army don't surender and their blood flows for 1600 furlongs, the wicked men of the world are gathered and fed to the fowl and beasts of the fields. If man is lucky the bones of the 200M are the ones that are gathered and put in the grave at Gog.
(for futurists that means Russia or China or whoever they claim to be Gog cannot be if Gog is said to be located in Israel. It is is stated that the graves are there)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The wars of Daniel 11 certainly did cause a lot of deaths...2500 years ago, when they happened.
A small fraction compared to what those same battles would cause today.
1/3 of man is to die during the 6th trump. Of the 3 woes of that time the first two are caused by Satanic forces, the 3rd and last one is Christ pouring out the vials, not on Rome but on Satan and a few fallen angels and the armies from man that are gathered to fight against Christ. That about 2B at todays approx population.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel isn't having one giant Revelation, like John. Daniel is given a bunch of separate revelations, and there's nothing anywhere that says that they can't possibly be talking about the same events. In fact, they are overlapping, giving more and more detail each time, from the basic "4 kingdoms rise" in Daniel 2 and 7 to focusing in on the most important things in Daniel 9 and 11-12.
We agree that Daniel 2 & 7 are about the same thing, events from Neb's time until the (2nd) coming of Christ when He destroys all ungodly beings that are on earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
It's the period of tribulation - the sun turns black, and the moon does not give its light...this happened when Jerusalem was destroyed and the smoke was so thick it blacked out the sky, and that appears to be what Joel 2 is describing. And if any of them fall on a sword, no harm comes to them...this is because they are there to achieve a purpose, and no retaliation from the Jews can stop them.
Except for the problem that Joel is the rescue of Jerusalem and not the destruction. Who is being destroyed would be whoever owns the sword when Christ comes. Later in the chapter is not later in the sequence of events, they are back to back, the wicked are swept up before the righteous (resurrected Israel) are brought into the land. These verse above would also have had to become real in 70 AD
Joe:2:21:
Fear not,
O land;
be glad and rejoice:
for the LORD will do great things.
Joe:2:22:
Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field:
for the pastures of the wilderness do spring,
for the tree beareth her fruit,
the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
Joe:2:23:
Be glad then,
ye children of Zion,
and rejoice in the LORD your God:
for he hath given you the former rain moderately,
and he will cause to come down for you the rain,
the former rain,
and the latter rain in the first month.
Joe:2:24:
And the floors shall be full of wheat,
and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe:2:25:
And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten,
the cankerworm,
and the caterpiller,
and the palmerworm,
my great army which I sent among you.
Joe:2:26:
And ye shall eat in plenty,
and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the LORD your God,
that hath dealt wondrously with you:
and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe:2:27:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the LORD your God,
and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
These verse above would also have had to become real in 70 AD, it didn't, it isn't even true today. The verse below is the 70AD destruction, something that happened in the brass. the same event as Da:9:27.
Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Also, the problem with man-made theories on "how the end works" is that man has no idea how the end works. All we can do is guess based on what Scripture says, and Scripture appears to say that Christ came in AD 70.
You can't even prove Revelation was written before 70AD. Actually when you take all the verses the Bible has about the years just prior to His return and about the day of His return it is a pretty clear picture. That view would come from men, it is not based on Scripture alone. Scripture alone would have a relationship between one subject mentioned in two successive chapters as being most likely related to one another.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel goes like this:It goes Neb....silver....brass....iron/clay.....Christ. That is all ch:2 gives us
Chapter 2 - Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is Babylon
You missed a few chapters, Daniel 3 is about Neb, Daniel and the furnace.
Daniel 4 is the chapter about the gold head of ch:2.
Da:4:1:
Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people,
nations,
and languages,
that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
Da:4:37:
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth,
and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Neb's son has the kingdom for a short while after Neb dies, it is taken from him by a king that is from the silver. The silver has two kings.
Da:5:31: And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.
Da:6:28: So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.
The brass is covered in ch:8.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 7 - Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is Rome
The focus is the iron/clay kingdom.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 8 - Persia, Macedonia -> the focus is Macedonia
Alex and then the next 4 (max) rulers over Jerusalem. Unfortunately that would also include Rome. I would be happy to post the NT verses that tell how those verses from Daniel 8 were fulfilled.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 9 - Persia, Rome (with Macedonia, unmentioned, in between) -> the focus is Christ, and Israel
Pretty much covers 500 years but brass is still the kingdom that is in power by the time the temple is destroyed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Chapter 11 - Persia, Macedonia, Rome -> the focus is on Macedonia
Satan, the Beast from the pit (both former angels), the whore of Babylon and the kings daughter of Da:11 are the same, the corrupt man is the False Prophet and the one who plucks up 3 of the 10 kings. etc, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The prophecies have an order, but they're not centred around each of the metals of the statue Nebuchadnezzar saw. They're ordered by the stages in which God chose to reveal them...
They follow the same order, the gold is first followed by silver, brass and iron in that order. The iron is so important there is even a little extra given about it in ch:2 & 8.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The first was for Nebuchadnezzar, to more or less feed his ego. It was the least detailed, and gave a summary of kingdoms to come.
Neb got a whole chapter, God also calls him 'my servant' in another OT book.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The second was to show Daniel the kingdoms yet to rise upon the earth in more detail, especially the one that would go on to be the most evil.
Since evil is not vanished it is quite okay to assume things get worse as time goes by.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The third was to detail the end of the empire that was ruling at the time, followed by the rise of the next, which would give rise to one who would persecute the Jews.
Do you mean more that taking them captive like Neb did? Rome does the same thing after the Messiah does what He came to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The fourth spans the time between Persia and Rome, detailing how long they had before the Messiah would come and their Holy City would be destroyed.
???? 4th
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The fourth goes one step further and details the span from Persia to Rome.
???? I'm lost on these two points.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
There is a pattern, but the statue of Nebuchadnezzar is only the first part of it.
That same pattern is covered again in Da:7, the separate beasts apply to the 4 metals of Da:2. The Beast from the Pit in Revelation can have these attributes because 'it' (being angelic) gives power to 10 men, (iron/clay).
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
And, in fact Herod I the Great was a king. He was a client king of Rome, and he was the first of a dynasty. That's why he's called "King Herod". He also did everything described in Daniel 11 from verse 36 on. Chapter 35 leads directly into Herod, as the last of the "ones who had understanding" to be killed, which is what's being described in verse 35, was killed at the command of King Herod.
A fake king, so he wasn't commanding any forces, nor was his crown from the house of David. Rome was the only military force in the area.
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
Exactly, thank you for restating what I said. And the person not getting helped is King Herod.
Nope, sorry, Christ didn't destroy him. When it says at that time Michael stand up it is talking about the Angels who do the gathereing. Both the Elect and Desolate are gathered by Holy Angels, some are taken to Christ to be healed and given rewards, the others are sent to death or hell for the next 1,000 years. The ones who come alive at this time face Satan one more time, this time while in immortal bodies. The ones not alive only become alive after Satan is totally dealth with so as far as they are concerned they cannot be tempted to follow him into the lake.
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
Yes, the time of Jesus was in Chapter 9, but there's no rule in the Bible (or in Daniel, even, for that matter) that one event can only be mentioned in one prophecy.
Actually if something is mentioned once it is mentioned at least two more times, that works for evry piece of doctrine as far as I know.
M't:13:39:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
Even though they do the gathering any deaths are caused by Christ himself.
Isa:63:3:
I have trodden the winepress alone;
and of the people there was none with me:
for I will tread them in mine anger,
and trample them in my fury;
and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments,
and I will stain all my raiment.
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
Important things are stated and restated again, numerous times...the time of Christ, and the actions of the kingdom ruling at the time, was the most important of all, so naturally it was the focus of both Chapter 9 and Chapter 12, which cover the same periods of time.
If they are restated why are you dismissing two references in ch:8 & 9 as being about the same thing, the removal of (the need for bolld) sacrifice. Today our offerred sacrifice is what we say when in prayer. The below is an example of two similar use the same word can be different. These are two separate abominations. The one from Da:12 is about the image in Revelation, the same incident is in IIThess:2. The one in Da:9 is Stephen's daeth and other things, more than one thing certainly.
Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
God keeping His part of the covenant didn't save the Jews. Israel's failure to uphold its end of the agreement lead to God's judgment of the Jews in AD 70, when Christ returned to save those few who had faith in Him.
Why look in Jerusalem for Christians then? There would have been none to be found, they all fled Jerusalem when this verse happened, by 70AD there probably wasn't any Christians in all of Israel.
Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.
Israel's habit of killing those sent to help them was (one of) the reasons they were exiled into Neb's Babylon. Satan's Babylon is a whole different game. Text from the NT have Satan and Rome acting in opposition, Satan would want Jesus to suffer under their rules, under their rules they wanted to release Him.
Anyway the attempt on Jeremiah's life is the reason there will be a battle with the armies of the world. Just as God used Neb to punish Israel back then it is the armies of the world (all the ones listed in Jer:25) that carry out what happens to Israel in the last days.
Armies + back turned = bad news. They better be wise enough to lay down their swords when asked by Christ. The 200M angelic army don't surender and their blood flows for 1600 furlongs, the wicked men of the world are gathered and fed to the fowl and beasts of the fields. If man is lucky the bones of the 200M are the ones that are gathered and put in the grave at Gog.
(for futurists that means Russia or China or whoever they claim to be Gog cannot be if Gog is said to be located in Israel. It is is stated that the graves are there)
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
The wars of Daniel 11 certainly did cause a lot of deaths...2500 years ago, when they happened.
A small fraction compared to what those same battles would cause today.
1/3 of man is to die during the 6th trump. Of the 3 woes of that time the first two are caused by Satanic forces, the 3rd and last one is Christ pouring out the vials, not on Rome but on Satan and a few fallen angels and the armies from man that are gathered to fight against Christ. That about 2B at todays approx population.
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel isn't having one giant Revelation, like John. Daniel is given a bunch of separate revelations, and there's nothing anywhere that says that they can't possibly be talking about the same events. In fact, they are overlapping, giving more and more detail each time, from the basic "4 kingdoms rise" in Daniel 2 and 7 to focusing in on the most important things in Daniel 9 and 11-12.
We agree that Daniel 2 & 7 are about the same thing, events from Neb's time until the (2nd) coming of Christ when He destroys all ungodly beings that are on earth.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 1:58:37 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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I think I need another Full Throttle lol. The problem is, we're looking at these parts of Scripture - the unveiling and subsequent fulfillment of prophecy - in two totally different ways. And, moreover, your approach to prophecy is new to me.
I discarded all I thought I knew about prophecy, and started over, rereading everything and letting it all take me wherever it wanted to lead. That's how I came to a Preterist viewpoint. Just a couple weeks ago, I was a Futurist. But, now, the events I had been watching from my Futurist standpoint (like the European Union, the ENP, etc.), they still hit me as being modern day fulfillments of the prophecies I now think were fulfilled in AD 70. It's a war between my imagination - which is wanting the fanciful appearance of an Antichrist ruling the world, followed by the Pre-Wrath Rapture, and then the glorious return of our Lord - and the logical, scientific part of my head - which says that this was all fulfilled back in AD 70.
Anyway, I don't think either of us is going to be moved from our stance any time soon. What I've noticed about people is that criticisms of their views never make them change those views, it just makes them fight harder to defend themselves, even twisting the truth to make it support them. I don't want to end up doing that, myself, so I want to revert back to my very first post, where I said I just wanted proof that anything about how I say prophecy was fulfilled is wrong. I don't want alternate theories, I can come up with too many of those on my own. I don't just want to know that there's another theory out there, I want to know, 100%, why my theory can't possibly be right.
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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
The fourth spans the time between Persia and Rome, detailing how long they had before the Messiah would come and their Holy City would be destroyed.
???? 4th
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
The fourth goes one step further and details the span from Persia to Rome.
???? I'm lost on these two points.
The second one should have been the fifth, not fourth. My point was, the two cover the same span, only the former gives the details concerning Israel and the coming Messiah, while the latter gives the details concerning events to occur in the ruling empires during that time.
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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
I would be happy to post the NT verses that tell how those verses from Daniel 8 were fulfilled.
And I would be happy to see those.
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God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 5:32:25 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
I think I need another Full Throttle lol.
Perhaps a conversation with someone more in-line with your views would be more useful to you.
Da:8:9:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south,
and toward the east,
and toward the pleasant land.
A Nation from that direction from Jerusalem will rule over the people and the city when these things occur. The two in the verse below come from that direction. These are said to be in power over Jerusalem at some time after that OT verse was given.
Lu:3:1:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee,
and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis,
and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Lu:3:2:
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests,
the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
((There was also Herod, as you pointed out. One died after Jesus was taken to Egypt and another was responsible for John's death.))
Da:8:10:
And it waxed great,
even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped upon them.
The host of heaven at that time was Jesus and the Apostles and others mentioned in the NT. Rome was responsible for the mistreatment of some Christians. Being put into exile on Patmos might not have been as harsh as it sounds in that they had freedon over the whole island. Peter being the best example. That doesn't mean they were at constant war with 'Christians' for the most part that specific point would not be much of a factor.
Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
((Jesus died after being brought before Roman officials, the cross was theirs, His death obolished the need for blood sacrifice. Some 4 decades later it was these same people who tore the city and temple apart.))
Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.
(( History would point to the possibility that that verse means the one who tears down the temple is also the one who comes up with the 'teachers of Christianity', the RCC would qualify as that. Scripture also points to them not doing all that well of a job if casting the truth down is 'altering a few thing to help their own cause'.))
Da:8:13:
Then I heard one saint speaking,
and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice,
and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Da:8:14: And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
((the time from when John was put into prison and the time that Stephen was killed, the cross to Stephen would be 1260 days and the 1260 days prior to the cross less the 40 days for the days Jesus was in the wilderness and you have from 'baptism' (needed to be done before the sacrifice He made could be done until the temple was empty of all Christiand (the Apostles stayed in Jerusalem, there is nothing that says they ever set foot in the temple complex again. These next verses are still about the same group as the ones just above in this post, this is who takes power from them. Scripture only goes so far back from Christ's coming and since that date will always be unknown this just picks things up that few years before He actually steps on the earth))
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
And I would be happy to see those.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.
Satan, the same one as in this verse.
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Da:8:24:
And his power shall be mighty,
but not by his own power:
and he shall destroy wonderfully,
and shall prosper,
and practise,
and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Da:8:25:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;
but he shall be broken without hand.
On what page of your PDF did you cover how these verses fit Rome like a glove?
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ORIGINAL: Godkin
And I would be happy to see those.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2009 6:12:51 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Perhaps a conversation with someone more in-line with your views would be more useful to you.
Not necessarily, I want proof that what I say is wrong, rather than just be handed one more man-made theory to do battle with. Anyone who knows me knows I certainly don't mind a good debate, but I'm getting too old for this...I am 20 afterall, and not getting any younger  .
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
On what page of your PDF did you cover how these verses fit Rome like a glove?
I say it's Antiochus IV Epiphanes who fulfilled those verses. That's on page 5, "Ram and the Goat (Daniel 8)." I don't go into great detail in that section though, because my analysis of Daniel 11, on pages 6-8, allows more space for that (as I say they're both talking about the same thing...the part detailing Antiochus' fulfillment of his part in Daniel 11 is on page 7, and it matches the description of him in Daniel 8).
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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