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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 12:25:42 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Godkin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Perhaps a conversation with someone more in-line with your views would be more useful to you.
Not necessarily, I want proof that what I say is wrong, rather than just be handed one more man-made theory to do battle with. Anyone who knows me knows I certainly don't mind a good debate, but I'm getting too old for this...I am 20 afterall, and not getting any younger  .
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
On what page of your PDF did you cover how these verses fit Rome like a glove?
I say it's Antiochus IV Epiphanes who fulfilled those verses. That's on page 5, "Ram and the Goat (Daniel 8)." I don't go into great detail in that section though, because my analysis of Daniel 11, on pages 6-8, allows more space for that (as I say they're both talking about the same thing...the part detailing Antiochus' fulfillment of his part in Daniel 11 is on page 7, and it matches the description of him in Daniel 8).
I've been reading the exchange between you and Wayne for a while now. (Whew! It takes a lot of time and patience to read through this whole stream!)
I'm a partial preterist of sorts. In particular, I believe that SOME of Yeshua`s prophecy in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) was fulfilled in 70 A.D. HOWEVER, there is also a good portion that has NOT been fulfilled, yet. I draw the line at "spiritualizing" some of the prophecy just to make it fit in history. That's not honest eschatology IMO. If we wanted to make certain things that don't fit into our theories more palatable to ourselves, we could "spiritualize" away ANYTHING!
No, prophecy has been and will continue to be fulfilled in literal ways. Human beings may not always see just how they will be fulfilled and may be surprised by how they are fulfilled, but just like the 400+ prophecies about the Messiah coming true literally in the first advent (coming) of Yeshua the Messiah of God, so too the other prophecies will be fulfilled literally, even if we don't understand (at this point in time) how they could be so fulfilled.
What you (and Wayne, as well) need to understand is that there are certain words that are treated as "holy words" which have been given particular, detailed definitions which do NOT match how those words are actually used in Scripture.
Here's a short list of some of these words: angel, antichrist, Christ, church, heaven, Isra'el, rapture, resurrection, salvation, and tribulation, to name just a few. How a person defines some or all of these words can either keep that person on track or really take him far afield!
That's all for tonight, but in the days ahead, I will try to make it as simple as I can so you can see how the definitions affect our interpretations of various passages, not the least of which are those of the Olivet Discourse, Dani'el, Yechezk'el (Ezekiel), Yesha`yahu (Isaiah), and Revelation.
Good night.
Roy
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 7:25:39 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Not necessarily, I want proof that what I say is wrong, rather than just be handed one more man-made theory to do battle with. Anyone who knows me knows I certainly don't mind a good debate, but I'm getting too old for this...I am 20 afterall, and not getting any younger .
Fortunately Scripture always stays in season, even after 20 yrs. Your document (pg5) says the one that comes from north and west of Jerusalem is from the 'Seleucid Empire', I agree that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was King of that empire, however when you look that place up on a map it is due north of Jerusalem. Rome is pretty close to a true NW direction (45deg off true north and true west). That would seem to be at odds with Scripture when other choices are introduced.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/SeleucidEmpire198BCE.jpg
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
On what page of your PDF did you cover how these verses fit Rome like a glove?
I say it's Antiochus IV Epiphanes who fulfilled those verses. That's on page 5, "Ram and the Goat (Daniel 8)." I don't go into great detail in that section though, because my analysis of Daniel 11, on pages 6-8, allows more space for that (as I say they're both talking about the same thing...the part detailing Antiochus' fulfillment of his part in Daniel 11 is on page 7, and it matches the description of him in Daniel 8).
Sorry I meant how does Rome fit verses Da:8:24&25
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
(Whew! It takes a lot of time and patience to read through this whole stream!)
The nice thing about having it all in one thread is a few deviations are allowed if they fit in with the overall picture, what is fulfilled and what is not..
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I'm a partial preterist of sorts. In particular, I believe that SOME of Yeshua`s prophecy in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) was fulfilled in 70 A.D. HOWEVER, there is also a good portion that has NOT been fulfilled, yet. I draw the line at "spiritualizing" some of the prophecy just to make it fit in history. That's not honest eschatology IMO. If we wanted to make certain things that don't fit into our theories more palatable to ourselves, we could "spiritualize" away ANYTHING!
Those 3 references have to be looked at very carefully, in Matthew it would appear 70AD is being referenced while in the other accounts it would appear to be more for the ones who see the image. I tend to think that what happened in 70AD was mostly covered by Jesus by the time He started the actual sermon. He hadd already said it would be torn down and that some of those there would see it. When it was finally torn down I doubt there were many Christians in Israel, especially Judea.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, prophecy has been and will continue to be fulfilled in literal ways. Human beings may not always see just how they will be fulfilled and may be surprised by how they are fulfilled, but just like the 400+ prophecies about the Messiah coming true literally in the first advent (coming) of Yeshua the Messiah of God, so too the other prophecies will be fulfilled literally, even if we don't understand (at this point in time) how they could be so fulfilled.
So my view that that Noah's flood was 21ft of rain on just the land masses compared to a view that it had to be enough water to cover the whole earth to a dept that would be 21ft higher that earth's highest mountain would be an example of something that cannot be proved (as far as I am aware of). I might argue that point for a few posts, if it comes to do the righteous dead rise from the literal graves then this thread would be considered short when compared to how long I would argue that point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What you (and Wayne, as well) need to understand is that there are certain words that are treated as "holy words" which have been given particular, detailed definitions which do NOT match how those words are actually used in Scripture.
In this thread the word I would find most in need of clarity is the word 'cut-off' as it is used in Da:9.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Here's a short list of some of these words: angel, antichrist, Christ, church, heaven, Isra'el, rapture, resurrection, salvation, and tribulation, to name just a few. How a person defines some or all of these words can either keep that person on track or really take him far afield!
Should I answer here or do you want to start a new thread?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 11:21:04 AM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Fortunately Scripture always stays in season, even after 20 yrs. Your document (pg5) says the one that comes from north and west of Jerusalem is from the 'Seleucid Empire', I agree that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was King of that empire, however when you look that place up on a map it is due north of Jerusalem. Rome is pretty close to a true NW direction (45deg off true north and true west). That would seem to be at odds with Scripture when other choices are introduced.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/SeleucidEmpire198BCE.jpg
It says the goat came from the west. Alexander the Great, ruler of the original Macedonian Empire, came from Macedonia - the west, according to Israel. His empire was then broken into quarters, to the four winds, at which point Daniel 8 says one will come out of the four divisions who will go out to the south, and the east, and to the "pleasant land." Antiochus IV Epiphanes came out of the Seleucid Empire (one of the four, which, yes, was pretty much due north of Israel, which is why he's later called the "king of the north"). He invaded to the south - Egypt - and he invaded the pleasant land - Jerusalem. If there's anything that doesn't match Antiochus, it's that he didn't really do much to the east until he was about ready to die.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Sorry I meant how does Rome fit verses Da:8:24&25
I know. I was saying that, Antiochus fulfilled Daniel 11:21-32, and those verses match Daniel 8:24-25.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
So my view that that Noah's flood was 21ft of rain on just the land masses compared to a view that it had to be enough water to cover the whole earth to a dept that would be 21ft higher that earth's highest mountain would be an example of something that cannot be proved (as far as I am aware of). I might argue that point for a few posts, if it comes to do the righteous dead rise from the literal graves then this thread would be considered short when compared to how long I would argue that point.
*gasp* we almost agree on something
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Here's a short list of some of these words: angel, antichrist, Christ, church, heaven, Isra'el, rapture, resurrection, salvation, and tribulation, to name just a few. How a person defines some or all of these words can either keep that person on track or really take him far afield!
Trust me, I'm not one to accept these words based on their modern definitions. I have an obsessive compulsive habit of going to the original context and the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek, just to make sure I'm reading the text right; that's also why I prefer to use the Young's Literal Translation over even the KJV. And that's why, in my PDF, I consistently say "Rapture", in quotes, because I know the difference there may be between the modern connotations of the word and what the idea actually meant for the people who first taught it (if they even taught it, to begin with). Also, I use the word "Israel" loosely, as I do "tribulation". In the case of "tribulation" or "great tribulation", I usually use whatever word Scripture uses without any further explanation.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 2:51:48 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
It says the goat came from the west. Alexander the Great, ruler of the original Macedonian Empire, came from Macedonia - the west, according to Israel.
There is also the verse that mentions Grecia. When his empire was dissolved it went to 4 directions, 4 Generals split the empire, only one of those 4 controlled Jerusalem before Grecia ceased to have authority over Jerusalem. From the dates below after Grecia control went to Egypt. (one of the 4 generals, the one that got Egypt). That rule lasted through several Egyptian rulers until Egypt lost to another Nation.
332
Alexander the Great conquers Jerusalem
312
Judea under the rule of the Egyptian Ptolemies
198
the Syrian Seleucid king, Antiochus III conquers Jerusalem
169
Antiochus IV plunders the Temple
You are saying this rule was described in Da:8:9-12, but you are also saying this same rule is being described in verses 24&25. There is a change in kingdoms (Nations) between those two events.
Da:8:22:
Now that being broken,
whereas four stood up for it,
four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,
but not in his power.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
His empire was then broken into quarters, to the four winds, at which point Daniel 8 says one will come out of the four divisions who will go out to the south, and the east, and to the "pleasant land."
That compass would be centered over Grecia then, pointing to Jerusalem is a SE direction. Due south is Egypt and they were the next power to rule over Jerusalem, 100+ years, after that the ones who got Syria from the collapse of Grecia ruled for many deacdes. Compass point #2, Rome is west of Grecia and it was the 3rd compass point. The one to be ruling at Christ's return is the same one that tempted Him in the wilderness just after His baptism.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Antiochus IV Epiphanes came out of the Seleucid Empire (one of the four, which, yes, was pretty much due north of Israel, which is why he's later called the "king of the north").
The king of the north is Satan, at least he is the only fallen angel said to have human followers (children), the king of the south is Satan's favorite fallen angel. That is how they can sit at the same table while appearing to be conflict with one another. Satan is represented by the north because that is the direction from Jerusalem that his pit is dug, it smolders for the next 1,000 years. The king of the south is who was controlling those that get their bones collected and buried in a new valley to the south of Jerusalem.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
He invaded to the south - Egypt - and he invaded the pleasant land - Jerusalem. If there's anything that doesn't match Antiochus, it's that he didn't really do much to the east until he was about ready to die.
Still he can only fulfill one of those two sets of verses in Da:8.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
I know. I was saying that, Antiochus fulfilled Daniel 11:21-32, and those verses match Daniel 8:24-25.
Then he couldn't have anything to do with verses 9-12.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
*gasp* we almost agree on something
That's always a nice thing to have happen, I hope that doesn't increase the odd that we both have it wrong. lol.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2009 11:40:29 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
That's always a nice thing to have happen, I hope that doesn't increase the odd that we both have it wrong. lol.
Well, look at it this way... since we both arrived at pretty much the same conclusion independent of eachother, that increases the chances that we're both right. At least, believing that will help me sleep tonight.
As for the rest, I'm gonna take a break for Easter, so I'll see where we are when I get back on Monday. In the meantime, by all means, keep finding things to prove me wrong.
God Bless, and I hope you all have a great Easter.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2009 2:03:56 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cyberseeker
It is necessary to fix up a serious misunderstanding concerning Daniels ‘seventieth week.’ It has been widely taught by modern preachers and popular books that the person spoken about refers to Antichrist. The story goes how in the middle of the seventieth week Antichrist will enter a rebuilt Jewish temple and cause animal sacrifice to stop. This act of desecration (they say) is fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 with some modern version Bibles even stretching their translation to say so. For example:
quote:
“He will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler.”
(Daniel 9:27 New Living Translation)
In short, the modern doctrine together with some paraphrased Bibles say the clock stopped after the sixty-ninth week and the last week was projected two thousand years into the future after which it resumes when Antichrist is revealed. In the middle of this seven-year period he abominates the temple. But apart from the obvious difficulty of jamming a two-thousand year wedge into God’s timeline, this interpretation confuses the prophecy’s real intent. The passage is all about atonement, not second coming. The central person is Christ, not Antichrist. The temple is the ‘rejected’ not the ‘desecrated.’
The traditional view of this passage, held by the Church until last century, was the correct one all along. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant! Christ is the one who causes sacrifice to cease! Christ is the one that makes the temple obsolete! Is this what happened? It surely did. In the midst of the seventieth week – in the very midst – God caused the great curtain of the temple to be torn from top to bottom indicating that sacrifice (as far as He was concerned) had come to an end. The atonement was complete! Shortly after this the ‘other prince’, Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.
The following Bible version gives a more reliable translation of the verses and the authors notes are included in brackets in order to show how each clause is fulfilled.
quote:
“After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (troops of Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (ad70) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after baptism) He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (veil of temple torn) And on the wing of abominations (temple worship after the ‘weeks’ was an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.” (Gods judgement on Jerusalem from ad70 until the times of the gentiles finish)
(Dan 9: 26,27 New King James Version, bracketed notes added)
What may come as a shock to many is that putting a stop to temple worship is not the abomination. It is temple worship itself, continued in defiance of God after the times allocated to it (the ‘weeks’) had ended. This is what the abomination really is and that is why the temple is not still standing as a memento to former days when Gods blessing was upon it.
Cyberseeker
Satan has to install a throne for a king that has the blessing of the religious aspect. It would appear that the False Prophet is the one that is said to sit on a throne and claim he is God. It appears that the throne is set up in a temple dedicated to God. I'm quite sure these two verse apply to the same event.
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
That would make the False Prophet King of Israel with the Beast from the Pit and Satan as his power that enables him to demand worship as being God.
Daniel has the 'temple' as being a tent, which the first one was, a tent built to specific dimensions and containing certain 'props'. A replica of that is all that would be needed. Satan also has men build the image, taking away something is not the same thing.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2009 12:42:31 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
There is also the verse that mentions Grecia. When his empire was dissolved it went to 4 directions, 4 Generals split the empire, only one of those 4 controlled Jerusalem before Grecia ceased to have authority over Jerusalem. From the dates below after Grecia control went to Egypt. (one of the 4 generals, the one that got Egypt). That rule lasted through several Egyptian rulers until Egypt lost to another Nation.
332
Alexander the Great conquers Jerusalem
312
Judea under the rule of the Egyptian Ptolemies
198
the Syrian Seleucid king, Antiochus III conquers Jerusalem
169
Antiochus IV plunders the Temple
You are saying this rule was described in Da:8:9-12, but you are also saying this same rule is being described in verses 24&25. There is a change in kingdoms (Nations) between those two events.
Da:8:22:
Now that being broken,
whereas four stood up for it,
four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,
but not in his power.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Still he can only fulfill one of those two sets of verses in Da:8.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Then he couldn't have anything to do with verses 9-12.
Daniel 8:9-12 and 8:24-25 are the same thing. The second is the interpretation of the first. So yes, he has everything to do with both verses, because the first is the prophecy and the second is its interpretation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
That compass would be centered over Grecia then, pointing to Jerusalem is a SE direction. Due south is Egypt and they were the next power to rule over Jerusalem, 100+ years, after that the ones who got Syria from the collapse of Grecia ruled for many deacdes. Compass point #2, Rome is west of Grecia and it was the 3rd compass point. The one to be ruling at Christ's return is the same one that tempted Him in the wilderness just after His baptism.
The compass is centred over Assyria, where the Seleucid dynasty sat as "king of the north". To the south of him is Egypt, with the Ptolemaic dynasty as "king of the south", and Jerusalem sits in the middle. And, of course, Rome is west of pretty much any place in this region, except Egypt.
And yes, the one ruling at Christ's return was the one who tempted Him in the wilderness. But, according to any of a number of verses, not the least of which is Revelation 12, the two events aren't separated by 2000 years. The two are separated by 40 years, a very significant period of time that mimics the Exodus and the destruction of the Temple in 586 BC in several ways.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The king of the north is Satan, at least he is the only fallen angel said to have human followers (children), the king of the south is Satan's favorite fallen angel. That is how they can sit at the same table while appearing to be conflict with one another. Satan is represented by the north because that is the direction from Jerusalem that his pit is dug, it smolders for the next 1,000 years. The king of the south is who was controlling those that get their bones collected and buried in a new valley to the south of Jerusalem.
Is any of that actually in the Bible?
First of all, Satan is not a fallen angel, that's just extra-Biblical tradition.
Second, history gives a more reasonable (not to mention earthly) fulfillment of the "table" prophecy, as well as of the identities of the kings of the north and the south. I'm a BIG fan of Occam's Razor.
Third, if you're getting the location of the pit from where I think you are, then that's just conjecture. Otherwise, I'd love to know where that comes from.
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2009 2:03:44 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
Daniel 8:9-12 and 8:24-25 are the same thing. The second is the interpretation of the first. So yes, he has everything to do with both verses, because the first is the prophecy and the second is its interpretation.
Can you give me the list of who is described in these few verse'. I would put it as Alex then up to 4 more rulers, the events of 8:9-12 are fulfilled by one of these 4. All of these are from the brass. The change from brass to iron is in verse 23, in verse 25 this 'last king' is destroyed.
Da:8:21: And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Da:8:22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Da:8:23: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
The compass is centred over Assyria, where the Seleucid dynasty sat as "king of the north". To the south of him is Egypt, with the Ptolemaic dynasty as "king of the south", and Jerusalem sits in the middle. And, of course, Rome is west of pretty much any place in this region, except Egypt.
That is still straight north from Jerusalem, more importantly why would a compass that is mentioned when Grecia is the subject be transported through time to a Empire that wouldn't exist for more than a 100 years after Alex's empire broke up? Going south from Jerusalem or Damascus missed Egypt by some distance of about 400km.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
And yes, the one ruling at Christ's return was the one who tempted Him in the wilderness. But, according to any of a number of verses, not the least of which is Revelation 12, the two events aren't separated by 2000 years. The two are separated by 40 years, a very significant period of time that mimics the Exodus and the destruction of the Temple in 586 BC in several ways.
When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness during those 40 days after baptism he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. It would seem that Satan thought the whole world belonged to him regardless of which humans were running things (all of which were corrupt to some extent or another). That person is not yet even began to force his rule on people. God used Rome to destroy the temple and the city, I can assure you God would not employ Satan for such a task, they were completely human just like Neb and his army was when they overran Israel and Jerusalem and the temple.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The king of the north is Satan, at least he is the only fallen angel said to have human followers (children), the king of the south is Satan's favorite fallen angel. That is how they can sit at the same table while appearing to be conflict with one another. Satan is represented by the north because that is the direction from Jerusalem that his pit is dug, it smolders for the next 1,000 years. The king of the south is who was controlling those that get their bones collected and buried in a new valley to the south of Jerusalem.
Is any of that actually in the Bible?
It is if you believe Daniel wrote something about the iron/clay kingdom. The gold, silver, and brass each have at least one chapter so yes the iron does also, that leaves only one chapter as being possible. We can cover this more after we get through the issue of ch:8, is there a change from brass to iron as proposed above.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godkin
First of all, Satan is not a fallen angel, that's just extra-Biblical tradition.
Second, history gives a more reasonable (not to mention earthly) fulfillment of the "table" prophecy, as well as of the identities of the kings of the north and the south. I'm a BIG fan of Occam's Razor.
Third, if you're getting the location of the pit from where I think you are, then that's just conjecture. Otherwise, I'd love to know where that comes from.
According to Scripture he is a former resident of Heaven. According to Scripture his fall also included 1/3 of all Angels. These verses are about angels and how they fell.
Jude:1:5:
I will therefore put you in remembrance,
though ye once knew this,
how that the Lord,
having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude:1:7:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha,
and the cities about them in like manner,
giving themselves over to fornication,
and going after strange flesh,
are set forth for an example,
suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude:1:8:
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh,
despise dominion,
and speak evil of dignities.
Peter also covers these residents of the well without water. Just so you know the full extent just 4 fallen angels can cause the deaths of 1/3 of mankind in just 3yrs and 1 mo, at todays population count that is about 25 million/day each and every day.
There is quite abit more Scripture that covers who against God in those last few days but it can wait. When we get there page 15 is going to be an interesting post.
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The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/23/2009 10:51:03 AM
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harris43
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
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No serious discussion of 'end times' and bible prophecy can take place without reading about the War of AD 70. Most people have never even heard of it. They simply know that that is the date that the temple was destroyed. Why was this war important?
Here are some reasons:
1. It fulfilled Jesus' words about the Holy temple being reduced to rubble.
2. Jesus referred to this war as the end times (Notice in Matthew 24, the temple talk and the end times talk are part of the same conversation)
3. There are documented spiritual events that happened with it. Chariots racing in the clouds, a cross (sword) in the sky for an entire year, voices heard in the temple saying "let us depart hence", massive doors that normally took 20 people to close, opening on their own, a lamb following a calf to be sacrificed and more.
4. Massive loss of life. Intense starvation and extreme acts of violence. A greater percentage of Jews were killed in this war than any in history.
5. This is the first war after Jesus that shows the anger of the Lord towards the Jews. It's the same kind of anger you read about in Revelation.
Even if you're not convinced there's a tie in with this war and Revelation, it's still a fascinating read. I've read through the 500+ pages and done some summarizing in 7 articles, pulling out what I think people will find most interesting.
War of AD 70
Hope you enjoy.
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/23/2009 11:13:52 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 140
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Harris43
If Jesus referred to 70AD as the end times, as you stated in your above post. What are we in now??? 1940 years past end times.
In Christ,
Montana Marv
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/23/2009 12:11:32 PM
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harris43
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Harris43
If Jesus referred to 70AD as the end times, as you stated in your above post. What are we in now??? 1940 years past end times.
In Christ,
Montana Marv
All I can prove, is what was written. In this case the Greek words there better translated as 'end of the era' (or end of the age) not 'end times'. Check the different translations to see this. (Just like "Jesus" is better translated "Joshua" or so I've read.)
"End of the era" could change things couldn't it?
Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age
3 questions in one sentence. Who would ask 3 different questions on different topics with one sentence? It can't be done AND make sense. These 3 ideas are related. They're asking, 1. when will the temple be destroyed, 2. what will be the sign of your coming (they knew he would be the one doing it!) and 3. what are the signs of the end of the age (the temple destruction is the END of God dwelling in a temple and the START of Him dwelling within us. It is the END of the Jews as the chosen race and the START of gentile inclusion.
To answer your question consider this. The Jews got it wrong. They expected to be delivered by a warrior messiah. They missed Jesus because they were expecting something else. We're doing the same thing, expecting the Kingdom to be a certain way, not considering that we might get it wrong too.
I used to be a pretribber. I own every book by Tim Lehaye and Pastor Hagee still. Matthew 24 always bothered me until I shook off what I was being force fed and looked at the text myself. Clearly, Jesus is asked 3 straight forward questions to which he does not take them through parables or anything else imaginary to answer their questions.
This page explains everything in biblical and historical terms. In short format: Preterism explained
The answer to your question "where are we in now?" Consider this:
The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, [21] nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you
In Revelation, the heavens are rearranged. Prince of the Air, Satan, is banished to the earth. That leaves the 7 layers of heaven with no gap between us and God. Heaven is brought down to us by this rearrangement. See Chart I believe the first layer of heaven is all around us. That is why we have access to God now. I think this was the only way the Holy Spirit could come to us. We walk in the physical, among heavenly spirits until we die. Then we can see them and be with them as they are.
I believe the bible is a complete story. God has told us who he is and how he came to us. The Jews were necessary to bring about Jesus and to show us how bad the law was in comparison to Grace, but they are not needed now as a 'chosen race'. They were chosen but their job is done. They don't have any greater status than you and I have. And there certainly won't be a 3rd temple. Or if there is, God won't be dwelling there, because He is in us now.
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/27/2009 12:31:52 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 140
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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harris43
Do you consider yourself as a partial, full, or all is complete preterist.
What is left to be fulfilled or come to pass?
In Christ,
Montana Marv
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/29/2009 1:28:10 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, harris43.
quote:
ORIGINAL: harris43
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Harris43
If Jesus referred to 70AD as the end times, as you stated in your above post. What are we in now??? 1940 years past end times.
In Christ,
Montana Marv
All I can prove, is what was written. In this case the Greek words there better translated as 'end of the era' (or end of the age) not 'end times'. Check the different translations to see this. (Just like "Jesus" is better translated "Joshua" or so I've read.)
"End of the era" could change things couldn't it?
Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age
3 questions in one sentence. Who would ask 3 different questions on different topics with one sentence? It can't be done AND make sense. These 3 ideas are related. They're asking, 1. when will the temple be destroyed, 2. what will be the sign of your coming (they knew he would be the one doing it!) and 3. what are the signs of the end of the age (the temple destruction is the END of God dwelling in a temple and the START of Him dwelling within us. It is the END of the Jews as the chosen race and the START of gentile inclusion.
To answer your question consider this. The Jews got it wrong. They expected to be delivered by a warrior messiah. They missed Jesus because they were expecting something else. We're doing the same thing, expecting the Kingdom to be a certain way, not considering that we might get it wrong too.
I used to be a pretribber. I own every book by Tim Lehaye and Pastor Hagee still. Matthew 24 always bothered me until I shook off what I was being force fed and looked at the text myself. Clearly, Jesus is asked 3 straight forward questions to which he does not take them through parables or anything else imaginary to answer their questions.
This page explains everything in biblical and historical terms. In short format: Preterism explained
The answer to your question "where are we in now?" Consider this:
The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, [21] nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you
In Revelation, the heavens are rearranged. Prince of the Air, Satan, is banished to the earth. That leaves the 7 layers of heaven with no gap between us and God. Heaven is brought down to us by this rearrangement. See Chart I believe the first layer of heaven is all around us. That is why we have access to God now. I think this was the only way the Holy Spirit could come to us. We walk in the physical, among heavenly spirits until we die. Then we can see them and be with them as they are.
I believe the bible is a complete story. God has told us who he is and how he came to us. The Jews were necessary to bring about Jesus and to show us how bad the law was in comparison to Grace, but they are not needed now as a 'chosen race'. They were chosen but their job is done. They don't have any greater status than you and I have. And there certainly won't be a 3rd temple. Or if there is, God won't be dwelling there, because He is in us now.
Sorry, but that's not quite right. Obviously, you've been TOLD that "It is the END of the Jews as the chosen race and the START of gentile inclusion," but at NO time does God undo His promises to Yisra'el! They are the Messiah's FAMILY! LITERALLY, HIS COUSINS, NEPHEWS, AND NIECES! No, to the contrary, Paul is quite clear that the "gifts and calling of God are without repentance." In other words, God DOESN'T TAKE BACK HIS PROMISES!
Rom 11:26-29
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Now, it IS true that it was the beginning of Gentile inclusion, but that IMPLIES that they must be included in SOMETHING THAT WAS THERE FIRST! They were adopted into God's FAMILY, the family through which He produced His SON!
I, too, used to be a pre-tribber, but I learned to follow God a different direction. Now, I accept my Jewish roots and realize that we, even as Gentile (Goyim) believers in the Messiah, should NEVER have departed from the Jewish teachings back in the 200s and 300s A.D! The teachings were FOUNDATIONAL for the believers in Yeshua` as the Messiah! Yeshua` fulfilled the Scriptures (the OT), and the Tanakh (the OT) enhances the fulfillment! They go hand in hand. For instance, Easter (or rather Resurrection Day) could not have happened without Passover (or Pesach)! Furthermore, Pentecost is a JEWISH holiday called Shavu'ot! We know that Yeshua` was (and is) the Lamb of God who takes away our sins, but what does that mean without Passover? The pictures are AWESOME to behold in the Jewish Seder, especially in a Messianic Jewish Seder! Did you know there are FOUR cups of wine in the Seder and that each cup has a meaning? Did you know that it was the FOURTH cup that Yeshua` passed to His Disciples in the Last Supper (a Seder meal) and said, "This do in remembrance of me?" Why did He use THAT cup? What was the bread He broke to symbolize His body? It was the Matzah, the Jewish way bread, that looks like an unsalted cracker! THAT'S why the body was BROKEN and not TORN! I can't even begin to tell you about all the symbolism in the Aficomen that is hidden for the children to find! One must pay close attention to all the details to realize that it symbolizes Yeshua` Himself and His redemption!
Did you know that worshipping on Shabbat (Saturday) was NEVER rescinded? Do you know why we now worship on Sunday? Did you know that, according to prophecy IN THE BIBLE, we will worship once again on Shabbat?!
There's SO much more that you need to know, but I have no more time tonight. Just consider that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, there's another way to look at the very same Scriptures you've been using and see a much different picture!
Oh, and by the way, there WILL be a third Temple. Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) devoted 9 chapters to it! (Ezek. 40-48) Why is it built? Well, Yeshua` the Messiah will be the One to build it and it will be HIS house of worship! Why does He need it? Who knows? I only know that the Scriptures say IT WILL BE BUILT! PERIOD! And no amount of explaining it away is going to get rid of that fact!
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/29/2009 10:43:39 PM
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Reba
Posts: 658
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: offline
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Hmm,
This is an interesting thread.
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/29/2009 10:46:09 PM
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Reba
Posts: 658
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: offline
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1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 4/30/2009 1:27:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harris43
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Harris43
If Jesus referred to 70AD as the end times, as you stated in your above post. What are we in now??? 1940 years past end times.
In Christ,
Montana Marv
All I can prove, is what was written. In this case the Greek words there better translated as 'end of the era' (or end of the age) not 'end times'. Check the different translations to see this. (Just like "Jesus" is better translated "Joshua" or so I've read.)
"End of the era" could change things couldn't it?
Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age
3 questions in one sentence. Who would ask 3 different questions on different topics with one sentence? It can't be done AND make sense.
These 3 ideas are related. They're asking, 1. when will the temple be destroyed, 2. what will be the sign of your coming (they knew he would be the one doing it!) and 3. what are the signs of the end of the age (the temple destruction is the END of God dwelling in a temple and the START of Him dwelling within us. It is the END of the Jews as the chosen race and the START of gentile inclusion.
Greetings
These 3 ideas are related.
Not exactly
2 "Do you “see” all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
These things Jesus referred to… was the temple
1. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, = v2
Number 2 and # 3 below would not have come to pass unless the “first” prophecy Jesus spoke was (SEEN) = fulfilled = verse 2
2. and what will be the sign of your coming
3. and of the end of the age
First of all Because none of them were going to be alive with exception of John who was going to see not one stone left on another; AND every one thrown down."
And without that coming to pass FIRST John would have been unable TO SEE
2. and what will be the sign of your coming
3. and of the end of the age
When the book of the revelation was given to him to see.
When the scripture is revealing in verse 2 "Do you “see” all these things?" he asked.
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33 Even so, when “you see” (revelation) of …..“all these things,”
=2. and what will be the sign of your coming
=3. and of the end of the age
Therefore….
You know that it is near, right at the door….
Because unless the “first” prophecy Jesus spoke was fulfilled in verse 2 then the sign of your coming and the end of the age…. Would not come to pass afterwards
It’s called a written prophetic guarantee…and is simply based on “the first” prophecy Jesus spoke in verse 2 that describes “the last”…. and that… was accomplished on the cross.
De 18:22 - Show Context
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, “if the thing”….. “does not happen”…. or come to pass,
……….that is the thing …..which the Lord ….“has not spoken;”
the prophet has spoken it presumptuously;
KEY = you shall not be afraid of him.
Therefore the opposite is also true….
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, “if the thing”….. “does happen”…. And it comes to pass,
……….that is the thing …..which the Lord ….“has spoken;”
the prophet has not spoken it presumptuously;
KEY = you shall be afraid of him.
Lu 12:32
2 "Do you..... “see” .....all these things?" ....he asked
=33 Even so,
when “you see” (the revelation) of the fig tree =…..“all these things,”
quote:
These 3 ideas are related.
IMHO.....according to De 18:22 and Jesus is flat out telling us it was not going to be seen (Revealed) until the revelation of the fig tree came to pass
According to the scriptures…that is the only way they are related.
It seems as if the backbone of Preterism is equating "the third question" the disciples asked Jesus "to the first" question they asked Him,
Which is way………………off key in Matt 24... or any where else for that matter 
…. because the last question was not even to be seen until “the first” was fulfilled…. if they were related in like manner then Jesus would have revealed that in our hearing....
….And the rest was not even spoken of or coming closeto being seen =( being Revealed) in time … as it was given to John the Apostle... and could not be seen until “the first” prophecy Jesus spoke in verse 2 of Matt 24 came to pass.
Therefore ...."Until" .... the parable of the fig tree.... "came to pass." ....question # 3 the disciples asked Jesus could not even be deciphered in the scriptures by current events… because of the lack of the prophetic evidence (De 18:22 )… until that day and hour.
It seems the doctrine of Preterism IMHO is building a house with no foundation…
I guess I can see why they claim that John wrote the book of revelation "before" 70 AD,
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/1/2009 12:30:25 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Reba.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Sure, that's true, but context shows that this is talking about the RESURRECTION BODY versus the PHYSICAL BODY, and the physical body DID have to come first. Then, that physical body is metamorphed into the resurrection body at the return of the Messiah.
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/1/2009 8:05:13 PM
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Godkin
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline
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Thank you Harris for taking up my cause. I've been rather distracted lately, with exams and, now that I'm home, slow dial-up internet, and such. Besides, I got kinda tired of the endless, and fruitless, Futurist-Preterist banter, but I hope I'll get back into this in a couple days, hopefully with some new and improved ammunition...so watch out .
_____________________________
God works nature, He does not work magic.
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/12/2009 8:25:48 PM
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EaZiE
Posts: 44
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sure, that's true, but context shows that this is talking about the RESURRECTION BODY versus the PHYSICAL BODY, and the physical body DID have to come first. Then, that physical body is metamorphed into the resurrection body at the return of the Messiah.
Roy
I was wondering about this physical resurrection. The bible definitely indicates a future general resurrection of all men. I've heard a lot of people talk about this present physical body coming up out of the grave. Of course there are the examples of Lazarus, Jairus daughter, and Jesus Himself. But these were only dead for a few days. Is there going to be a resurrection of all physical bodies deteriorated from the time of Adam? Adam's 6000 year old bones have quite possibly become dust that is spread out in different places. Others purposely have there bodies burned and ashes sprinkled in special places. Another fact is that our bodies are always changing even while we are alive. We lose layers of skin and our organs are renewed several times throughout our life. Even when we get a haircut our dna is in each of them long lost strands.
No doubt God can do it. I just wondered if that is what the bible truly means.
1 Cor. 15:50 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Also 1 Cor. 15:53,54.
There are a couple of other verses about what our spiritual bodies will be like. I haven't come to any conclusions to an all spiritual, partly physical, only physical type of body we'll have. There are good reasons from both sides. But scripturally I'm not sure if its necessary that this "lowly", "corruptible" body comes up at the resurrection. An all spiritual body in the presence of the Lord is all the same glorious.
Any thoughts, anyone?
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/13/2009 10:27:01 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, EaZiE.
quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sure, that's true, but context shows that this is talking about the RESURRECTION BODY versus the PHYSICAL BODY, and the physical body DID have to come first. Then, that physical body is metamorphed into the resurrection body at the return of the Messiah.
Roy
I was wondering about this physical resurrection. The bible definitely indicates a future general resurrection of all men. I've heard a lot of people talk about this present physical body coming up out of the grave. Of course there are the examples of Lazarus, Jairus daughter, and Jesus Himself. But these were only dead for a few days. Is there going to be a resurrection of all physical bodies deteriorated from the time of Adam? Adam's 6000 year old bones have quite possibly become dust that is spread out in different places. Others purposely have there bodies burned and ashes sprinkled in special places. Another fact is that our bodies are always changing even while we are alive. We lose layers of skin and our organs are renewed several times throughout our life. Even when we get a haircut our dna is in each of them long lost strands.
No doubt God can do it. I just wondered if that is what the bible truly means.
1 Cor. 15:50 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Also 1 Cor. 15:53,54.
There are a couple of other verses about what our spiritual bodies will be like. I haven't come to any conclusions to an all spiritual, partly physical, only physical type of body we'll have. There are good reasons from both sides. But scripturally I'm not sure if its necessary that this "lowly", "corruptible" body comes up at the resurrection. An all spiritual body in the presence of the Lord is all the same glorious.
Any thoughts, anyone?
I would LOVE to discuss this further, but I think this would be VERY off-topic. So, let's start a new topic....
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/17/2009 7:39:36 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Any thoughts, anyone?
Sure, here are a few thoughts:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM;...
And of course Jesus said "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have..." (note: not flesh and blood)
And there is the ever popular: Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Never mind those who parrot purveyors of preterist propaganda, all we need do is...
BELIEVE the scriptures!
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/18/2009 1:08:49 PM
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EaZiE
Posts: 44
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
quote:
Any thoughts, anyone?
Sure, here are a few thoughts:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM;...
And of course Jesus said "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have..." (note: not flesh and blood)
And there is the ever popular: Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Never mind those who parrot purveyors of preterist propaganda, all we need do is...
BELIEVE the scriptures!
Hi, Uriah
If it does not yet appear what we shall be like then obviously we are not going to look like Jesus in his resurrected body before he was taken to heaven seated at the right hand of God and glorified because John had seen Jesus in His resurrected body. Right? The verse in Job has some ambiguity to it. If you read some commentaries on this verse some believe this to say that even though his skin was destroyed (as it was) God will preserve him. Do you say that Jesus resurrected body had no blood flowing through it.
We are all preterists to some degree which just means fulfilled prophecy. Its just that a lot of people think that perhaps the only prophecy that has been fulfilled is that Jesus came the first time.
You can swing by the Spiritual or physical resurrection? under Christian Doctrine where there is some discussion going on.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/19/2009 8:12:53 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
We are all preterists to some degree which just means fulfilled prophecy
Preterism has sometimes been identified as replacement theology. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "past". Adherents of Preterism are known as Preterists.
Your simplistic and innocent sounding definition really does not begin to describe what a preterist really believes. Not even close. There are plenty of fulfilled prophecies in the NT...with regards to OT prophecy...such as the virgin birth...so, according to your definition of preterism as meaning 'just fulfilled prophecy'...that would make me a preterist.......obviously, your definition does not fly.
quote:
Its just that a lot of people think that perhaps the only prophecy that has been fulfilled is that Jesus came the first time.
Perhaps if you actually knew or studied what 'alot of people' believe, you would find your above statement utterly without basis.
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