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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/20/2009 7:11:51 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
quote:
Any thoughts, anyone?
Sure, here are a few thoughts:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM;...
And of course Jesus said "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have..." (note: not flesh and blood)
And there is the ever popular: Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Never mind those who parrot purveyors of preterist propaganda, all we need do is...
BELIEVE the scriptures!
Hi, Uriah
If it does not yet appear what we shall be like then obviously we are not going to look like Jesus in his resurrected body before he was taken to heaven seated at the right hand of God and glorified because John had seen Jesus in His resurrected body. Right? The verse in Job has some ambiguity to it. If you read some commentaries on this verse some believe this to say that even though his skin was destroyed (as it was) God will preserve him. Do you say that Jesus resurrected body had no blood flowing through it.
We are all preterists to some degree which just means fulfilled prophecy. Its just that a lot of people think that perhaps the only prophecy that has been fulfilled is that Jesus came the first time.
You can swing by the Spiritual or physical resurrection? under Christian Doctrine where there is some discussion going on.
John, as far as I can read, is saying that we will be like Him (Jesus). He is saying that he didn't what know (form?) we shall be, but whatever it is WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM:
How do you get out of that that I am saying we will LOOK LIKE Jesus? What are you trying to do?
In Job, rather than elevate commentaries we need to BELIEVE what is written! There is nothing ambiguous about doing that.
Regarding the other references, I pointed out some inescapable, if paradoxical, truths. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Yet Jesus said he DID have flesh and bones! And although risking to be labeled an argument from silence (which is in some cases is justified, indeed helpful if not abused) He did not say He had flesh and BLOOD. Interesting.
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/21/2009 5:51:34 PM
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EaZiE
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Uriah,
I'm not trying to do anything. I understand how it can sensitive on these forums. I really find that the resurrection has some mystery to it. But I'd like to understand more. The way I understood what you were saying is that we will be just like Jesus was as he walked this earth after the resurrection. I understand that verse to show that we won't have a body like Jesus before His ascension and glorification. I'm just doing this to point something out. But maybe you already knew. I didn't really get the main point of your post. But you have mentioned some things I haven't thought of.
There are people that know a lot more about history and the scriptures in their original languages than I do. Have you ever considered that doctrines like the trinity, original sin, the nature of Christ had to be debated and there formed a theology. A lot of the theological work has already been done. I can pick up a bible by myself and come to different conclusions than the next guy. Nobody, not me or you, can pick up the bible and come to the perfect understanding about all doctrine. Especially on a matter such as the resurrection. See that is where heresy comes from. That is why I use commentaries. And I don't just use one.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/21/2009 6:12:03 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
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Right! That is how is see preterism. It has been thoroughly examined and found wanting. Too many dotted lines where you must make a leap of denial. The comparisons they use are like a bad comb-over. We have to pretend we don't see the glaring contradictions and forced collisions of scriptures.
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/21/2009 6:37:46 PM
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EaZiE
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I'm not a full preterist (hyperpreterist). I am convinced that roughly 75% or more of the book of Revelation has already been fullfilled. You see, that alone would shock today's Christians I know. But basically all of the churches of America had become indoctrinated by the modern premillenial dispensational system that was started by Darby and spread mostly through the Scofield study bible. Neither do I believe that there is going to be some antichrist (we all have the man of sin within). I don't believe that modern day Israel has much to do with prophecy (of course it does to Prem. Disp.) because the practice of Judaism is totally different than it was. God works with those who believe in His Son. That is the church. That is fine if you don't agree with it. I just want to help those that are struggling with the modern day Left Behind theology. For the preterists, well I don't think they need help--all of the churches teach another doctrine already. But we can agree to disagree. Our endtimes doctrine isn't what gets us saved. I'm a little wary of those churches that put eschatology at the forefront of their ministries. Theres been cults premillenial, postmillenial. The churches of America in general have a higher focus on end times than other countries.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/21/2009 9:16:40 PM
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Reba
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No No NO not Scofield !
What ever did the wonderful man do?
I have never been able to understand how a person could use lies as footnotes to scripture and have the nerve to print them in the Bible....
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/22/2009 10:31:12 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 140
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
I'm not a full preterist (hyperpreterist). I am convinced that roughly 75% or more of the book of Revelation has already been fullfilled. You see, that alone would shock today's Christians I know. But basically all of the churches of America had become indoctrinated by the modern premillenial dispensational system that was started by Darby and spread mostly through the Scofield study bible. Neither do I believe that there is going to be some antichrist (we all have the man of sin within). I don't believe that modern day Israel has much to do with prophecy (of course it does to Prem. Disp.) because the practice of Judaism is totally different than it was. God works with those who believe in His Son. That is the church. That is fine if you don't agree with it. I just want to help those that are struggling with the modern day Left Behind theology. For the preterists, well I don't think they need help--all of the churches teach another doctrine already. But we can agree to disagree. Our endtimes doctrine isn't what gets us saved. I'm a little wary of those churches that put eschatology at the forefront of their ministries. Theres been cults premillenial, postmillenial. The churches of America in general have a higher focus on end times than other countries.
A little troubling in what you say.
I doubt you could prove that 10 percent of Rev has been fulfilled. If you have the man of sin within, guess what? You are indwelt by Satan. Not by the HS. Your theology is a bit waning. But, there is the seed from Adam (which gives us the ability and desire to sin), and then we are given the HS which battles with our fleshly desires.
Now according to Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the A/D, spoken of through the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.) - let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. v 21 - For there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be equaled again. v 29 - Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. v 30 - At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. V31 - And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
In essences the distress of those days has not begun as yet. The time of Jacobs trouble has not started. The 70th week of Israel has not yet begun. Oops, there's that nation of Israel again. Zech 8:7,8 - This is what the Lord Almighty says; I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God.
Even preterists have problems with others in preterism. In fighting over what has or has not been fulfilled.
And then there's the problem of when did John write his books, before 70 AD or after 70 AD. For this is what separates Preterists from the rest of us believers, pre-dating John's writings.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/24/2009 2:00:41 PM
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Uriah
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EaZiE said, "I'm not a full preterist"
So this makes you a futurist that simply believes more is fulfilled than other futurists.
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/24/2009 3:12:51 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Reba.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
No No NO not Scofield !
What ever did the wonderful man do?
I have never been able to understand how a person could use lies as footnotes to scripture and have the nerve to print them in the Bible....
Rom 3:4
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV
When we wander from the Scriptures, we are ALL found to be liars.
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: The war of AD 70 - temple destruction - 5/25/2009 10:19:38 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
If it does not yet appear what we shall be like then obviously we are not going to look like Jesus in his resurrected body before he was taken to heaven seated at the right hand of God and glorified because John had seen Jesus in His resurrected body. Right? Actually Jesus was glorified the the first night of His resurrection. In the early morning Mary M. was not allowed to give Him a hug. That night with the Disciples were baptised with the Holy Ghost, He breathed into them, One can assume they also touched each other at some point in the next 40 days. For Jesus the ability to baptize people with the Holy Ghost was part of being glorified.
Joh:7:39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Its just that a lot of people think that perhaps the only prophecy that has been fulfilled is that Jesus came the first time.
This is the part that first grabbed my eye. The part 'a lot of people think' does not make something a fact. There are a few places in the 4 Gospels that say something was fulfilled. One was the Herod ordering whay is called slaughter og the innocents. The prophecy for that is from Jer:31. The names are changed a bit but the message is that those children were mourned for and there is hope that they will again come from the land of the enemy. The place they are in is death, that is where they will be coming back from. That whole chapter is prophetic to the arrival of the Messiah as King. Those children are still held by death.
The 2nd instance is when Jesus was taken captive. The prophecy for that can be tied to His return. Zec puts it as taking a sword to the Shepherd. What it describes is 2/3 of all Gentiles being killed when Jesus returns, this time with authority to use the sword.
It might be some time before I will be able to catch up on any replies. Hopefully it is something to chew on.
Later
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 5/30/2009 10:08:50 AM
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JMiller
Posts: 126
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
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The heart of preterism
The preterism issue, preterism says that all end times bible prophecy has already been fulfilled in AD 7O when Jerusalem was destroyed. However the Apostle John wrote the Revelation around the year AD 90-95 a full 30 to 35 years after this fact, so therefore all end time prophecy could not have possibly been fullfilled in AD 70. John would not have prophesied something that had already happened, as he clearly states, "things which must shortly come to pass" that is not prophecy that rather is called history. Revelation 1:1. The perterists are just simply wrong, that is just all there is to it. Please note the perterists are a small minority of Bible Scholars, and therefore they are not mainstream.
The preterists say that the book of Revelation was written in the first century for the first century Christians, and that it had meaning only for them. They further state that Rome was
the oppressive antichrist government that author John the Revelator was preaching against, and that
he had good personal reason to. (He had an axe to grind, according to preterists) The Romans were persecuting Christians at the time (including himself).
However the book of Revelation calls this oppressive End times antichrist government Mystery Babylon, NOT mystery Rome! Thus their basic premise is in error. Therefore we have yet another talking point proving the preterists wrong.
Secondly the end times one world government, the scripture say's will cover the entire world. The Roman empire of the first few centuries does in no wise fit this model, as the Roman empire only covered a very small portion of the entire world.
Third they point to Nero Caesar name adds up to 666, that is pointless, as many people's names add up to 666 depending on which letter/numerical system is used. For example Ronald Wilson Reagan = 666, six letters in each of his names. Henry Kissinger's name adds up to 666 as does Hitler's and others ad nauseam. So Caesar Nero adding up to 666, is totally meaningless, as far as Nero they must commingle his name with his title in order to come up with the 666, the scripture mentions that AC's name equals 666, it does not mention commingling the name with the title to come up with 666, more error on the preterists part in my humble opinion.
More on why the preterists are wrong
http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=279198#watch92807
And finally the preterists deny the physical, visible, literal, second coming of Jesus Christ.
This is what the Lord has to say to the preterists today.
Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen [nations], and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work
in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
Matthew 16:2-3 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times.
You people (preterists) have no idea of what is coming, none
whatever. Your doctrine is going to condemn millions of souls to the
fiery pit. Because you will say it is ok to take the chip implant (mark
of the beast) don't worry be happy, all end time prophecy was
fulfilled in the first century, there is no such thing as Mark of the
Beast, the Revelation is all allegory, symbolism, and metaphor,
it's ok, everything is going to be alright.
Because all of our best theologians said so.
Genesis 3:1 Yea, hath God said
Preterism is a new theory just recently devised.
If it is new it can't be true
OBTW I am not preterist
< Message edited by JMiller -- 5/31/2009 12:56:17 PM >
_____________________________
O Lord GOD, remember me
Callin it the way I see it
Are you drinking from the river Denial?
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 6/26/2009 12:51:08 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 126
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Always remember in Christianity this catch phrase "if it is new, it can not be true." preterism started in 1996
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmisc-preterist-decade.htm
that is way too new to be true. Also remember that the first, second, and third century church fathers wrote nothing on the topic of endtimes events had been fulfilled in 70 AD. Matter of fact what is it we are always told whenever the subject comes up? Every generation for the last 2000 years have thought they were in the end times. If all these generations were looking for the return of Christ they could not possibly have been preterists.
_____________________________
O Lord GOD, remember me
Callin it the way I see it
Are you drinking from the river Denial?
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/3/2009 12:52:29 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, JMiller.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JMiller
Always remember in Christianity this catch phrase "if it is new, it can not be true." preterism started in 1996
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmisc-preterist-decade.htm
that is way too new to be true. Also remember that the first, second, and third century church fathers wrote nothing on the topic of endtimes events had been fulfilled in 70 AD. Matter of fact what is it we are always told whenever the subject comes up? Every generation for the last 2000 years have thought they were in the end times. If all these generations were looking for the return of Christ they could not possibly have been preterists.
While preterism may be "new," so is the futurist's view of Matthew 24 as being completely fulfilled in the future. It IS partially fulfilled already! Revelation, on the other hand, is NOT fulfilled at all, IMO, except perhaps the letters to the seven messengers of the congregations in Ephesus, Smurna, Pergamon, Thuratira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodikia.
See, about Matthew 24: Yeshua` really WAS warning His listeners about the things that were going to happen to them both in and around 70 A.D. and 135 A.D. Warning them not to come down off the rooftops (if that's where they found themselves when the invasion began) would not make any sense unless (1) they were in OLD Jerusalem and (2) they could still take the "road of the rooftops" out of the city to escape. This would not be possible today because Jerusalem has expanded FAR beyond the original walls and the "road of the rooftops" would not help a whole lot to get out of the city anymore! There are now checkpoints to go through and fences to negotiate. Furthermore, there are now buildings that are two and more stories and the buildings outside of the walls of the old city are farther apart; one cannot just jump from rooftop to rooftop as they used to!
Matt 24:1-51
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The question was global in nature because they specifically asked about the sign of (1) His "return" (Greek: parousia) and of (2) the "end of the age" (Greek: sunteleias tou aioonos) as well as "when these things (what Yeshua` had just said would happen to the buildings of the Temple) would be." Thus, Yeshua` would have to summarize what was to be about two thousand years of pain into a few choice sentences.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
First, He warns them of false messiahs who would make the claim. You would expect that His disciples would KNOW Him when they see Him; therefore, IMO, this warning is not JUST to the listeners but others who would NOT recognize the Messiah by sight. Since one would hardly be able to make an effective claim while another is doing so, one would expect this to cover many years since we have many messiahs making claim.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Wars and threats of wars (Greek: akoas polemoon) would also cover many years since it is unlikely that all these wars and threats would happen simultaneously.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Again, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, diseases, earthquakes, all in various places, suggest a significant amount of time being covered.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Then, Yeshua` comes back to His present and covers the span of history again as to how it will affect them and their successors. He speaks directly to His listeners by using the word "you" (which is plural, by the way. "Ye" and "you" are plural while "thou" and "thee" are singular) at first, but then He switches in verse 13 to "he that shall endure unto the end." Thus, He makes it more generic to future generations as well.
Also the "gospel of the kingdom" or the "good news about the Kingdom" IS verse 13: The one who shall endure unto the end, that one shall be rescued! This reflects back to OT prophecies such as Zechariah 12 and Isaiah 35 for Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) says,
Isa 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings ("gospel"), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good ("gospel"), that publisheth salvation (rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
Then, for the next few verses, He switches back to "ye," talking specifically to His listeners again:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Here's that specific reference to the "road of the rooftops"...
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This is NOT a statement that there WILL be "great tribulation" but that there MAY BE "great tribulation" IF they do NOT pray that their flight be other than in the winter or the Shabbat! It's not something that MUST happen; it's CONDITIONAL upon the grace of God in answering their prayers! The Greek does not end the sentence in verse 20; it flows into verse 21.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
He's warned them beforehand, ahead of time...
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
That last sentence simply means "wherever the dead body is (i.e. wherever the believers, especially the Jewish ones, are), that's where the vultures will congregate (where the false messiahs, false prophets, and traitors who would turn them in will be)."
Remember: we are talking about the time when MANY messiahs are claiming authority. Thus, this may have started with Yeshua`s listeners but it will continue into the future for many generations. THEN, Yeshua` switches to the future:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, ("families of the Land [of Isra'el]"--a reference to Zech. 12:10-14) and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These events have NOT happened as yet! On the other hand, they certainly WILL happen and literally!
Next, Yeshua` comes back to the present and talks directly to His listeners again:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Not, "your generation" but "this generation"; i.e., the generation of whom He is talking about seeing all these things (the things in verses 29-31) shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark adds "neither the Son" (Mark 13:32)...
Now, He's back to the future events...
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV
So, if you followed all that, while SOME of the things in Matthew 24 were fulfilled, there were definitely other things that were NOT fulfilled, yet!
Therefore, just as it's unfair for preterists to say that all were fulfilled in the past, so is it unfair for some futurists to say that all will be fulfilled in the future!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/7/2009 10:07:26 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Here's that specific reference to the "road of the rooftops"...
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This is NOT a statement that there WILL be "great tribulation" but that there MAY BE "great tribulation" IF they do NOT pray that their flight be other than in the winter or the Shabbat! It's not something that MUST happen; it's CONDITIONAL upon the grace of God in answering their prayers! The Greek does not end the sentence in verse 20; it flows into verse 21.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
Vs 21 could also mean that an even more violent time is at hand. The 42 months the Beast has could be considered 'as troublesome to some sections of society more than others'. Revelations would have the 5th trump as being a time of tribulation, the 6th as an escalation of tribulation. Both of those are within the the Beast's 42mo. Great Tribulation is the Day of Christ's return, it is a time of tribulation of the wicked and unrepented sinners. The 7th trump is fulfilled as described in the 7 vials chapter. That single chapter is about the event called Great Tribulation.
It is the Judgment of the Nations. Israel has already served her whole sentence by the time of Christ's battle.
Judgment begins at Jerusalem and that is the first place to be restored to God's Kingdom. His people (every last member that ever belonged to any of the 12 tribes) is also standing there in immortal bodies, just as promised. Their 1st task is cleaning up the effects of Christ's violence against men.
Eze:39:8:
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD;
this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze:39:9:
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth,
and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows,
and the handstaves,
and the spears,
and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
He's warned them beforehand, ahead of time...
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
That last sentence simply means "wherever the dead body is (i.e. wherever the believers, especially the Jewish ones, are), that's where the vultures will congregate (where the false messiahs, false prophets, and traitors who would turn them in will be)."
In this case the slain (by Christ) is many, not just in Israel but the Nations are covered also. 2/3 of them will die on that day. Zec:13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Remember: we are talking about the time when MANY messiahs are claiming authority. Thus, this may have started with Yeshua`s listeners but it will continue into the future for many generations. THEN, Yeshua` switches to the future:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, ("families of the Land [of Isra'el]"--a reference to Zech. 12:10-14) and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These events have NOT happened as yet! On the other hand, they certainly WILL happen and literally!
These are events that come at the end of Satan's authority, he is about to be chained for the next 1,000 years. These are 7th trump events (coming). This is the 3rd woe, the previous 2 were part of tribulation (for the righteous)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Next, Yeshua` comes back to the present and talks directly to His listeners again:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Not, "your generation" but "this generation"; i.e., the generation of whom He is talking about seeing all these things (the things in verses 29-31) shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark adds "neither the Son" (Mark 13:32)...
Now, He's back to the future events...
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV
So, if you followed all that, while SOME of the things in Matthew 24 were fulfilled, there were definitely other things that were NOT fulfilled, yet!
Then in some place what Jesus said should be able to be tied to what He had John write in Revelation. Tribulation and woes would seem to be similar events but that would mean the words in Matthew would cover those two woes, the %th & 6th trumps exclusively. That isn't saying the previous trumps are pleasant but they do not specifically target a select group, they affect everybody equally.
Since Revelation is written to the Church(s) as being the ones who are the 'elect' in the time just previous to Christ's return, then the Scriptures in the OT that cover that same day would also be referencing Christians as being the ones called 'His people'.
Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Have faith in God,
Wayne
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/7/2009 11:47:11 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JMiller
Always remember in Christianity this catch phrase "if it is new, it can not be true." preterism started in 1996
that is way too new to be true...
Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying, but I think if you do a little more research that you'll find preterism has been around at least since the 17th century.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/7/2009 10:26:53 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Here's that specific reference to the "road of the rooftops"...
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This is NOT a statement that there WILL be "great tribulation" but that there MAY BE "great tribulation" IF they do NOT pray that their flight be other than in the winter or the Shabbat! It's not something that MUST happen; it's CONDITIONAL upon the grace of God in answering their prayers! The Greek does not end the sentence in verse 20; it flows into verse 21.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
Vs 21 could also mean that an even more violent time is at hand. The 42 months the Beast has could be considered 'as troublesome to some sections of society more than others'. Revelations would have the 5th trump as being a time of tribulation, the 6th as an escalation of tribulation. Both of those are within the the Beast's 42mo. Great Tribulation is the Day of Christ's return, it is a time of tribulation of the wicked and unrepented sinners. The 7th trump is fulfilled as described in the 7 vials chapter. That single chapter is about the event called Great Tribulation.
It is the Judgment of the Nations. Israel has already served her whole sentence by the time of Christ's battle.
Judgment begins at Jerusalem and that is the first place to be restored to God's Kingdom. His people (every last member that ever belonged to any of the 12 tribes) is also standing there in immortal bodies, just as promised. Their 1st task is cleaning up the effects of Christ's violence against men.
Eze:39:8:
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD;
this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze:39:9:
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth,
and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows,
and the handstaves,
and the spears,
and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
He's warned them beforehand, ahead of time...
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
That last sentence simply means "wherever the dead body is (i.e. wherever the believers, especially the Jewish ones, are), that's where the vultures will congregate (where the false messiahs, false prophets, and traitors who would turn them in will be)."
In this case the slain (by Christ) is many, not just in Israel but the Nations are covered also. 2/3 of them will die on that day. Zec:13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Remember: we are talking about the time when MANY messiahs are claiming authority. Thus, this may have started with Yeshua`s listeners but it will continue into the future for many generations. THEN, Yeshua` switches to the future:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, ("families of the Land [of Isra'el]"--a reference to Zech. 12:10-14) and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These events have NOT happened as yet! On the other hand, they certainly WILL happen and literally!
These are events that come at the end of Satan's authority, he is about to be chained for the next 1,000 years. These are 7th trump events (coming). This is the 3rd woe, the previous 2 were part of tribulation (for the righteous)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Next, Yeshua` comes back to the present and talks directly to His listeners again:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Not, "your generation" but "this generation"; i.e., the generation of whom He is talking about seeing all these things (the things in verses 29-31) shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark adds "neither the Son" (Mark 13:32)...
Now, He's back to the future events...
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV
So, if you followed all that, while SOME of the things in Matthew 24 were fulfilled, there were definitely other things that were NOT fulfilled, yet!
Then in some place what Jesus said should be able to be tied to what He had John write in Revelation. Tribulation and woes would seem to be similar events but that would mean the words in Matthew would cover those two woes, the %th & 6th trumps exclusively. That isn't saying the previous trumps are pleasant but they do not specifically target a select group, they affect everybody equally.
Since Revelation is written to the Church(s) as being the ones who are the 'elect' in the time just previous to Christ's return, then the Scriptures in the OT that cover that same day would also be referencing Christians as being the ones called 'His people'.
Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Have faith in God,
Wayne
Well, here we go again. Suffice it to say that I see very little connection between Matthew 24 and Revelation. As I've already said, much of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled in the first century. Granted, not all, but much! So, I don't feel that we need to go searching for a pseudo-connection where no connection exists!
That's all.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/9/2009 10:11:42 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Well, here we go again. Suffice it to say that I see very little connection between Matthew 24 and Revelation. As I've already said, much of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled in the first century. Granted, not all, but much! So, I don't feel that we need to go searching for a pseudo-connection where no connection exists!
Nothing psedo about this being covered in Revelation.
M't:24:36:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man,
no,
not the angels of heaven,
but my Father only.
This verse is also covered in Revelation
M'r:13:13:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.
M'r:13:14:
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
standing where it ought not,
(let him that readeth understand,)
then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
As is this
Lu:21:20:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
In the above verse it is the army that is with the Beast from the Pit that kills the two witnesses in Re:11.
The Temple was made spiritually desolate when Jesus walked out the door after His chastisement of the entire staff in Matt:23. It will be spiritually alive again only when Christ has His house of prayer standing there.
No this isn't a here we go again, this is my last post on this topic with you.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/9/2009 9:51:14 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Well, here we go again. Suffice it to say that I see very little connection between Matthew 24 and Revelation. As I've already said, much of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled in the first century. Granted, not all, but much! So, I don't feel that we need to go searching for a pseudo-connection where no connection exists!
Nothing psedo about this being covered in Revelation.
M't:24:36:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man,
no,
not the angels of heaven,
but my Father only.
This verse is also covered in Revelation
M'r:13:13:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.
M'r:13:14:
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
standing where it ought not,
(let him that readeth understand,)
then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
As is this
Lu:21:20:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
In the above verse it is the army that is with the Beast from the Pit that kills the two witnesses in Re:11.
The Temple was made spiritually desolate when Jesus walked out the door after His chastisement of the entire staff in Matt:23. It will be spiritually alive again only when Christ has His house of prayer standing there.
No this isn't a here we go again, this is my last post on this topic with you.
Good. I'll take you at your word.
What you failed to do is quote the corresponding verses in Revelation that coordinate with the verses you DID quote from the synoptic Gospels. You've only presented some vague reference to Revelation 11, and THAT doesn't fit with "Jerusalem being compassed about with armies." Don't you think that any time a city is surrounded by the enemy--any enemy--they would be surrounded by armies? Jerusalem has been surrounded by Egyptians, Philistines, Syrians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Romans, Turks, Christian Crusaders, and Arabs. It is likely that it will be surrounded again in the near future. HOWEVER, the prophecies in the synoptic Gospels about Jerusalem being surrounded by the Romans in 70 A.D. and any other prophecy about Jerusalem being surrounded by some future army in 2009+ A.D. do NOT have to be the same event being described! Understand?
Similarities do NOT prove equality! In mathematical terms, this truth is represented by this statement: A ¡Ö B is NOT the same as A ¡Ô B! This is read "'A is similar to B' is NOT the same as 'A is exactly equal to B.'"
I hope you can grasp that truth because it will make a difference in how you interpret Revelation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/15/2009 1:31:06 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Roy, Shalom.
I hope this can be done, as I desire to query you on your post, at the thread just closed:
"""""Shalom, Mark.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
Cyberseeker, you need to speak to our resident professional expert panel on this subject!
Calling Mr Retrobyter to come to reception, Roy to reception please, customer call waiting.
Hahahahaha
LOL! I'm here, my friend!
So, Cyberseeker, the Preterists are not that far off about the start of the 70th "week" (Hebrew: shavuwa` = "a seven"). The problem is not the beginning of the 70th week, but the MIDDLE of the 70th week!
The 69th "week" DID end at the Immersion of our Master Yeshua` the Messiah of God (haMashiach Elohiym), and the 70th "week" started immediately thereafter. HOWEVER, Yeshua` did say,...
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Hebrew: Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH. = "Welcome [is] he-who-comes in-[the]-name [of]-YHVH" quoted from Psalm 118:26.)
KJV
Then, we are told of their abomination that caused this desolation...
Matt 26:57-68
57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.
58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
KJV
Of course, Yeshua` was crucified and at the end of His life, we read this:
Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
The author of Hebrews gives us this explanation for this sign:
Heb 10:1-22
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
Thus, the Sacrifice that HE made was sufficient; the animal sacrifices that the cohanim (the priests) made year after year COULD NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS!
Now, let's revisit Dani'el's prophecy, chapter 9, verses 24-27:
Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
As I've said before, the "he" of verse 27 refers back to the "Messiah" of verse 26. It CANNOT refer to the "prince that shall come" because that phrase is part of a prepositional phrase "OF the prince that shall come." This is just as true for Hebrew as it is for English. In Hebrew, however, it is POSITION of the words that determine which is "of" the other.
Therefore, it is the Messiah who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week HE shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. It is God's acceptance of a sacrifice that makes the sacrifice a true sacrifice. Otherwise, it's just another slaughtered animal with no efficacy. God stopped accepting other sacrifices after the body of Yeshua` was offered and the veil that represents that body was torn from the top to the bottom! And for the overspreading of abominations HE (the Messiah) shall make it desolate! "Behold your house is left to you desolate!" Why? Because of their rejection of God's Messiah! Their abominations of rejecting Him made them desolate!
This means that while there IS a gap, it is NOT between the 69th and the 70th weeks as some Futurists claim; rather, it is between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week! Yeshua` left them desolate UNTIL they could say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!"
In the Messiah's love,
Roy """""
Please tell me if I understand, as you understand.
The Seventieth Week (Shavu*) was used in Messiah's 3.5 years of ministry, according to Daniel's Prophecies, which leaves an unused 3.5 years of 'ministry' (for lack of a better word) for the 'Beast' to 'minister,' unto Millennium, in short: Great Tribulation.
I honestly feel, and deduce, that Daniel 9:26, and 27, offer one of God's 'dual' meaning Prophecies, sort of like a coin, heads side, and tails side. The words of verse 27 should be read as being focused upon both sides of that coin. Jesus fulfills verse 27 from the positive (heads) view, and Anti-Christ fulfills verse 27, as the opposite, the Fake Messiah. Either way, the words seem to describe both, to a 'Tee.'
I had this opinion, but your words seems to jell my opinion into a more tangible understanding, especially when conjoined with:
(Isa 61:2 KJV) To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
especially when the word 'and' joins two related but separate phrases, thus addressing both phrases.
How do you see my understanding, providing I expressed myself well enough.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/15/2009 1:50:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
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From: Kansas
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quote:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
Arley...did Christ confirm a covenant for only one week or was it a eternal covenant? And was that covenant for only a few or was it for everyone who would accept it? 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2009 2:19:57 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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FWIW:
It's really hard to follow some threads when people monkey with the title just to take a snipe at a position that they don't like.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 7/15/2009 2:35:17 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Bob, Shalom.
In a sense, I believe Christ did confirm ''a'' covenant (one of a plurality) with the many (not few), a covenant of 'ownership,' and 'Life,' determined by each person; as a covenant of 'ownership,' using3.5 of the 7, opening the Church Age. Christ confirms, with mortal man being to accept the covenant, unto Salvation, with gain or loss, determined by works 'after' Salvation. Heads. Oh, and the term, 3.5 years He was with us, is the only period He allow us to develop our faith, and to accept, or reject Him (sort-of).
Ha-Satans Anti-Christ will soon confirm "a" covenant (one of a 'duality (Trib, and also after Millennium) using the remaining 3.5 of the 7 closing the Church Age, under guidelines diametrically opposed to Christ's offer, where the Beast confirms the Anti-covenant, with mortal man's decision to accept (or even reject), unto LOSS. Tails. AC's term of 3.5 yeas is the only period of time He is allowed to use to cheat God, or martyr Believers, to their Glory.
What I fear is that my echo chamber doesn't seem to be conveying my words as well as I would like, but can't seem to find another similitude that works. Help!
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2009 7:54:44 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Eutychus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
FWIW:
It's really hard to follow some threads when people monkey with the title just to take a snipe at a position that they don't like.
I hope you don't mean me. If not, okay. If you do, sorry, but I see advantages to BOTH positions; however, I don't think either position as it is proposed today is totally correct. See, I can understand the Preterist position because much of Yeshua`s own prophecy in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were partially fulfilled IN HIS DISCIPLES' LIFETIMES!
On the other hand, they miss the boat (IMO) when they fail to acknowledge that some of the prophecy MUST be fulfilled in the future because the things said, if taken literally, did not happen in the past. They must "spiritualize" (or actually "allegorize") these points away with an explanation that sees these events happening in the past (taking HUGE liberties).
Futurists also miss the boat (IMO) when they fail to acknowledge that some of the prophecy was already fulfilled in the past during the lifetimes of the Disciples, and I think it's a great cop-out (sorry, my friends) to suggest that these verses have multiple fulfillments. People don't talk that way! They say one thing and mean one thing; multiple meanings beg the question, "How do we know which way we were intended to take the prophecy?" It also begs the questions, "How do we know which prophecies have multiple meanings and which do not?" and "How do we know that there aren't MORE than TWO meanings?" See, the logic of multiple meanings is BACKWARDS! We suggest that there are multiple meanings because we can't give up the traditionally held application of a particular prophecy even when one points out that the prophecy should be understood a different way in context.
IF the passage actually had two meanings, the two meanings SHOULD be pointed out in the context first! THEN, the two (or more?) interpretations can be understood.
Anyway, that's my belief on this.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2009 3:47:47 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Eutychus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
FWIW:
It's really hard to follow some threads when people monkey with the title just to take a snipe at a position that they don't like.
I hope you don't mean me.
Roy, what I meant was the Subject was changed a couple of pages back to:
The war of AD 70 - temple destruction
But specifically when someone changed it on this page to:
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM
There are different ways to see lists of topics and some show the most recent Subject line. I saw "RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM" yesterday in a list but when I clicked on it, I found it was really the "Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread" with a changed name.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2009 6:03:36 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Eutychus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Eutychus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
FWIW:
It's really hard to follow some threads when people monkey with the title just to take a snipe at a position that they don't like.
I hope you don't mean me.
Roy, what I meant was the Subject was changed a couple of pages back to:
The war of AD 70 - temple destruction
But specifically when someone changed it on this page to:
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM
There are different ways to see lists of topics and some show the most recent Subject line. I saw "RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM" yesterday in a list but when I clicked on it, I found it was really the "Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread" with a changed name.
Okay, that makes sense now.
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like a webpage having more than one link that keys to that webpage. I imagine it's not much different. It DOES make it more confusing (IMO), but it can be a valuable technique for the forum moderators. It would be similar to a search engine keying to a particular page based on a set of search values.
I can understand your difficulty with it because it reflects the opinions and bias of the moderator(s) who merged the subjects.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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