quote:

ORIGINAL: JMiller

Always remember in Christianity this catch phrase "if it is new, it can not be true." preterism started in 1996
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmisc-preterist-decade.htm
that is way too new to be true. Also remember that the first, second, and third century church fathers wrote nothing on the topic of endtimes events had been fulfilled in 70 AD. Matter of fact what is it we are always told whenever the subject comes up? Every generation for the last 2000 years have thought they were in the end times. If all these generations were looking for the return of Christ they could not possibly have been preterists.

quote:

ORIGINAL: navyblueret

Roy, Shalom.

I hope this can be done, as I desire to query you on your post, at the thread just closed:

"""""Shalom, Mark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonicStudent

Cyberseeker, you need to speak to our resident professional expert panel on this subject!

Calling Mr Retrobyter to come to reception, Roy to reception please, customer call waiting.

Hahahahaha



LOL! I'm here, my friend!

So, Cyberseeker, the Preterists are not that far off about the start of the 70th "week" (Hebrew: shavuwa` = "a seven"). The problem is not the beginning of the 70th week, but the MIDDLE of the 70th week!

The 69th "week" DID end at the Immersion of our Master Yeshua` the Messiah of God (haMashiach Elohiym), and the 70th "week" started immediately thereafter. HOWEVER, Yeshua` did say,...

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Hebrew: Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH. = "Welcome [is] he-who-comes in-[the]-name [of]-YHVH" quoted from Psalm 118:26.)
KJV

Then, we are told of their abomination that caused this desolation...

Matt 26:57-68
57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.
58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
KJV

Of course, Yeshua` was crucified and at the end of His life, we read this:

Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

The author of Hebrews gives us this explanation for this sign:

Heb 10:1-22
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

Thus, the Sacrifice that HE made was sufficient; the animal sacrifices that the cohanim (the priests) made year after year COULD NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS!

Now, let's revisit Dani'el's prophecy, chapter 9, verses 24-27:

Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

As I've said before, the "he" of verse 27 refers back to the "Messiah" of verse 26. It CANNOT refer to the "prince that shall come" because that phrase is part of a prepositional phrase "OF the prince that shall come." This is just as true for Hebrew as it is for English. In Hebrew, however, it is POSITION of the words that determine which is "of" the other.

Therefore, it is the Messiah who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week HE shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. It is God's acceptance of a sacrifice that makes the sacrifice a true sacrifice. Otherwise, it's just another slaughtered animal with no efficacy. God stopped accepting other sacrifices after the body of Yeshua` was offered and the veil that represents that body was torn from the top to the bottom! And for the overspreading of abominations HE (the Messiah) shall make it desolate! "Behold your house is left to you desolate!" Why? Because of their rejection of God's Messiah! Their abominations of rejecting Him made them desolate!

This means that while there IS a gap, it is NOT between the 69th and the 70th weeks as some Futurists claim; rather, it is between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week! Yeshua` left them desolate UNTIL they could say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!"

In the Messiah's love,

Roy """""

Please tell me if I understand, as you understand.

The Seventieth Week (Shavu*) was used in Messiah's 3.5 years of ministry, according to Daniel's Prophecies, which leaves an unused 3.5 years of 'ministry' (for lack of a better word) for the 'Beast' to 'minister,' unto Millennium, in short: Great Tribulation.

I honestly feel, and deduce, that Daniel 9:26, and 27, offer one of God's 'dual' meaning Prophecies, sort of like a coin, heads side, and tails side. The words of verse 27 should be read as being focused upon both sides of that coin. Jesus fulfills verse 27 from the positive (heads) view, and Anti-Christ fulfills verse 27, as the opposite, the Fake Messiah. Either way, the words seem to describe both, to a 'Tee.'

I had this opinion, but your words seems to jell my opinion into a more tangible understanding, especially when conjoined with:

(Isa 61:2 KJV) To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

especially when the word 'and' joins two related but separate phrases, thus addressing both phrases.


How do you see my understanding, providing I expressed myself well enough.

In Messiah. Arley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Good. I'll take you at your word.

Don't you think that any time a city is surrounded by the enemy--any enemy--they would be surrounded by armies?
Understand?

quote:

I guess I was thinking that Jacobs trouble was synonymous with the Great Tribulation, with this being the time of conversion to belief in Messiah, and being protected from the Beast, through God's covering of Israel for that forty-two months; thus the duality of the Prophecy (two quail, one basket).

quote:

The GT, is, of course, just under 3.5 years (3.34 Solar years, due to at least one 'leap month' being in the 42 month count). The preceding 3.5 are Prophesied, as the time of 'Destroys Wonderfully' years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cajunhillbilly

quote:

ORIGINAL: JMiller

Always remember in Christianity this catch phrase "if it is new, it can not be true." preterism started in 1996
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmisc-preterist-decade.htm
that is way too new to be true. Also remember that the first, second, and third century church fathers wrote nothing on the topic of endtimes events had been fulfilled in 70 AD. Matter of fact what is it we are always told whenever the subject comes up? Every generation for the last 2000 years have thought they were in the end times. If all these generations were looking for the return of Christ they could not possibly have been preterists.

Just a note here. There were several of the Puritan commentators who made statements that indicated they saw at least parts of the events of Matthew as having been fulfilled in 70 AD. Partial pretreism has been around for awhile. Longer in fact the dispensationism. In saying that I just want to set the record straight on historic facts. Of cours full pretreism is a recent development.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists;

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


These are the only mention of antichrist in Scripture. How do these verse get all the way to a world leader?


Edited because i hit the wrong button!

quote:

ORIGINAL: navyblueret

Dan, Shalom.

I am now forced to use a comment that just bugs me to death: You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

In Messiah, His Clarity. Arley

Now I have to go wash those nasty words off my finger-tips.

quote:

ORIGINAL: navyblueret

Dan, Shalom.

Jesus addressed this subject about seventy years before John penned Revelation, as dictated by Jesus, through visions. Interesting you would think that more than a normal generation later, John would not have noticed that the Prophecy by Jesus had played, or not played out.

No, I cannot, and will not argue that Israel does not belong to the Israeli people, I am absolutely convinced that from the Med to the Euphrates, belongs to Israel. God has not yet given that between the Jordan and Euphrates yet, but soon will.

quote:


No, 'Debate' is not my cup of tea. I share what I know, but have no desire to banter back and forth, arguing 'at' someone who has indicated, in recent blogs, that he does not seek to listen beyond the point of finding something to trip up the other person has slightly miss-stated on. You are right, and I totally also agree that 'truth' is Paramount (my word), and I do not have the time to play a game of a adversarial situation. Things of Faith can only be proven, in Mortality, through Holy Spirit Faith; and yet we, Christians, seem capable of any number of beliefs, through Faith.

The clarity you appreciate, is what I offered to your beliefs that you stated. You think your way, and I will mine.

Oh, as much as I like most of what PGWB did as President, He was Biblical insanity to even think of such a blunder as to create a two-state solution. That, IMO, was the absolute worst thing he did in his Presidency. (please note that this is my opinion, only//as//)

In Messiah. Arley

quote:

Actually, I'm not quite sure why our fellow forum-member listed the verses that were listed above, but they actually demonstrate that everything that God was going to give to Israel, was given to them. God promised it, it was given to them. After that, Israel gave it up. We, the Christian church, are now the branches of the Vine of Israel, and we are the Temple, wherein God makes his presence, and inhabits His praise.

quote:

This tells us that TRUTH MATTERS. So we should continue the debate until we reach agreement (or until the Faith Community Network administrators allow preterism to be properly hashed out somewhere other than a one-stop

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Reba, you just too both sides of the coin. Josh 21 is right, or Gen 15 is right. They cannot both be right. Either the boundary is the Jordan, or the Euphrates, definitely two locations. Consider, please, Euphrates is in TORAH, which cannot be changed, and Joshuah can be changed.