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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2009 12:52:43 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 802
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, DanJames.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I don't think that your verses prohibit him from being called King, because that's what He is. Whether or not we recognize him as King is the difference. Whether he was King from birth or King from all eternity, he is most certainly King now. Pilate asked whether or not he was a king and Jesus replied "It is as you say."
Be careful! There seems to be some difference of opinion in Yeshua`s words:
NIV: “Yes, it is as you say,…”
NASU: “You have said it [yourself];…”
KJV: “Thou hast said:…”
NKJV: “[It is as] you said….”
ASV: “Thou hast said:…”
BBE: “You say so:…”
CJB: “The words are your own….”
Darby Bible: “[Thou] hast said….”
Douay-Rheims Bible: “Thou hast said it….”
ESV: “You have said so….”
GWT: “Yes, I am….”
TLB: “Yes, … I am….”
The Message: “You yourself said it….”
NASB: “You have said it [yourself];…”
NCV: “Those are your words….”
NET: “You have said it yourself….”
NIRV: “Yes. It is just as you say,…”
NLT: “You have said it….”
NTMS: “I am He,…”
Noah Webster’s Bible (1833): “Thou hast said:…”
RSV: “You have said so….”
TNIV: “You have said so,…”
WEB: “You have said it….”
YLT: “Thou hast said;…”
The Greek (NA27) just says that Yeshua` said, "Su legeis," which is directly translated into the King's English as "Thou sayest" ("Thou" being the singular form of "You"). We would say, "You say." Now, what did that mean? Was He agreeing with Pilate OR was He saying, "That's YOUR opinion"? The bottom line is: Don't use this phrase on which to hang your theology.
On the other hand, you have thrown the evidence to the side and made the following statement as though it were a given fact when it is the very thing we're trying to prove one way or another: "I don't think that your verses prohibit him from being called King, because that's what He is. Whether or not we recognize him as King is the difference. Whether he was King from birth or King from all eternity, he is most certainly King now" In so saying, you are telling me that you don't care what evidence I might use, you've already made up your mind. I guess this is the point at which we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.
Oh, and by the way, you left out a possibility: He is most certainly NOT King now," and "He will be King when He returns and takes His rightful place as Isra'el's King."
Still in the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2009 11:33:16 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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You seem to use an awful lot of OT and pre-resurrection passages to support your POV about Jesus' position now. That seems like flimsy evidence to me.
BTW, I find great irony in the statement in your signature, seeing that it is not taken from the scriptures.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2009 8:15:56 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 863
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
You seem to use an awful lot of OT and pre-resurrection passages to support your POV about Jesus' position now. That seems like flimsy evidence to me.
BTW, I find great irony in the statement in your signature, seeing that it is not taken from the scriptures.
Maybe you could expand on what you mean. I don't particularly find Roy's use of the OT to support his views of the NT to be disagreeable. To the contrary, I wish more people understood the OT so they could better see the meaning of symbolism in the NT. For instance, when Jesus says to the pharisees, "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Unless someone understands from the OLD TESTAMENT that clouds are a symbol of judgment, they might miss the meaning of what Jesus is saying. What he was telling them is "You think that you're judging me, but you personally are going to see ME judging you with the authority of God. And they did during the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2009 10:46:05 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
Maybe you could expand on what you mean.
All verses in the OT regarding Christ are in the future tense. Citing verses that use words like "shall" to support the idea that Christ hasn't attained the position of King of kings just doesn't work.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2009 10:49:54 AM
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DanJames
Posts: 863
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
Maybe you could expand on what you mean.
All verses in the OT regarding Christ are in the future tense. Citing verses that use words like "shall" to support the idea that Christ hasn't attained the position of King of kings just doesn't work.
I see what you're saying. My mistake.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 1:01:38 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Absolutely. I have certainly not always held that position, but scripture is quite clear about this matter. The end of the age spoke of the Jewish age, not the planet earth. The old was passing away and the new was being brought in. Jesus promised that their generation would not pass away until all of these things took place. It is no coincidence that within that same generation Jerusalem and her temple would fall. If Christ and Revelation spoke of the downfall of Jerusalem and said it would happen in their generation, and "very soon." and then it happened... precisely as prophecied - it would seem odd that we would look for a future fulfillment - particularly in light of the fact that the temple no longer stands.
((The 70 weeks were determined for the city of Jerusalem and the people who called it ‘home’. An examination of what was to be accomplished will show a passage for each item in the list that was completed in the NT by about Acts:10. Revelation will be explained later in the post.
That ended by the time the Gospel was to be taken to the Gentiles, Peter’s vision in Acts was that vision. Trying to fulfill the prophecies about the coming King is to eliminate any time for the Gospel to be preached to the Gentiles. Revelation could have been written after 70AD which would end this conversation right then. No rock solid proof but one should consider that it not only had to be written but distributed to the Churches and then read to the congregation. Thess:2 warns them not to get excited about the day of the Lord coming in their time. They were told other things had to happen first. Satan’s last act was to kiss Jesus on the cheek, he still has some things to do before he is chained.))
In the 6th century BC Daniel was told to "Seal up the vision; for it shall be for many days." (Dan. 8:26) But now in the 1st century AD: John is told "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10) What God said was far away in Daniel's time, He said was imminent in the Apostles' time. The implication is inescapable: The statements of imminence that we read throughout the NT are accurate.
((The end of the 70 weeks (3 1/2 years after the cross) was the start of the time of the Gentiles treading the city, Revelation is written to Gentiles who will be alive when Christ’s return is within the dates given in that one book.))
"The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
((on the night of His return from the grave He baptized His followers with the Holy Spirit, that is a sign that the Kingdom was there at that very moment. The baptism of fire is at His return. 1/3 live through that fiery judgment of men.))
"Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
((this was a required step to have prophecy that was already written would unfold in the sequence God had intended))
"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
((Why would the following not be a fulfillment of that?
Ac:7:55:
But he,
being full of the Holy Ghost,
looked up stedfastly into heaven,
and saw the glory of God,
and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Ac:7:56:
And said,
Behold,
I see the heavens opened,
and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.))
"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)
((Within a week some of them saw the vision on the mountain, Jesus looked as He does in Revelation. Peter saw a vision prior to taking the Gospel to the Gentiles. The writer of Revelation certainly saw the most of the Kingdom of Heaven than anybody))
"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
((The ones who see those particular signs are the ones being addressed, much past 70AD))
"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)
((same answer))
“Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)
((as above))
“The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)
((that is a Priest role, not a Kings))
"His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)
((a new people a new covenant, the one that was made at the last supper, a covenant of remembrance. The one mentioned later in the NT comes into effect when the last vial of wrath is poured out. With all the wicked dead and temptation to sin taken away it is safe to re-gather the elect from Israel and from the Nations (Church) ))
“What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)
((the power of the Holy People was scattered, same root but Gentile branches were being graphed in. Having some Jews in blindness meant those were trimmed from the tree while they were in blindness. When that is lifted they will be graphed back into the tree. That cannot happen until the wicked are dead.))
“These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)
((all things written about the coming of the Messiah as King. There are still some prophecies that go past that event. The Kingdom entered back when Jesus was alive, it will be in total control when He returns.))
"This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)
((meaning the ones who are there when the verses unfold, reading is not the same thing.))
“This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)
(( This verse would already be past, it hasn't happened yet. The ones who experience that will not die naturally before Christ returns.
Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen. ))
"It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)
((That is a reference to the instructions given just before that verse. Doing/nor doing those things is the difference between being in the dark and being a child of the light.))
“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)
((That is the next thing to happen in prophecy. Soon is used because there are no other steps involved, when Revelation starts the end of Satan is very close.
“The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)
((the topic is having a wife near the end-days, I fail to see the point of this reference))
“The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)
((same))
“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)
((see previous verse for the list of things. Those could happen at any point in the future))
“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)
((as stated before, coming as High Priest was the last act before coming as King.
“…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)
“…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)
“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)
“Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)
“…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:6)
“He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)
“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)
"For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)
“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)
“Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)
“This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)
“…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)
“The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)
“I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)
“…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)
"Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)
"Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)
"Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)
"Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)
((I will go through the rest if you like but I’m quite confident that they will support what I have already stated, they are meant for the ones alive when those verses start to manifest.”))
Much like the Jewish leaders at the time of Christ missed his coming because they misunderstood the nature of his coming and his kingdom, so would be the case with his coming in judgment - The language employed throughout the NT is reminiscent of that which was used in the OT - Even Christ himself would say, ""The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (Luke 17:20-25)
((You can’t miss the return because we are all judged, it will not be a secret one.))
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 11/21/2009 1:09:28 AM >
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 1:32:42 AM
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claycup2
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline
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[Edited by moderator - commenting on moderator action]
quote:
Thess:2 warns them not to get excited about the day of the Lord coming in their time.
It is always best to quote scripture directly particularly when you would have such a strong point - but you misquoted and misrepresented the text which reads:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." (2 Thess 2:1-3)
The text only affirms that the day had not yet come, and would not come until the man of lawlessness was revealed. The text does not even come close to suggesting that they would not have to worry about it at all because it would not be in their lifetime! The fact that he was then being held back supports the traditional view that he was then alive and was likely to be associated with Nero.
Don't you think it strange that Paul didn't respond to those who believed that the day had already come - "are you nuts? - the planet hasn't blown up! Bodies didn't float into outer space! Christ did not descend on a cumulus cloud!" - It is clear that in Jewish mindset the terminology employed was in keeping with what the same terminology meant throughout the OT - an end of the age... not an end of the planet.
Jesus said:
"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28)
"This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
There does seem to be a consistent idea here doesn't there? But do you know what you did? You suggested to the reader that Christ is speaking of three different things in these verses. You suggest that Matt 10 deals with Stephen's vision of Christ at his stoning, that Matthew 16 deals with the transfiguration, and that Matthew 24 deals with a different generation than the one he was speaking to - a generation far removed from their time. Surely you understand why the casual reader of these texts would have a difficult time with your navigation. You said that these verses "are meant for the ones alive when those verses start to manifest."
The text says,
"This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
but you would want us to believe that this is how we should read it:
the generation to whom these events will come will not pass away before they come!
Can you see what an odd reading that is? What a completely strange point Christ would be making?
(Not that the language used will allow for this reading at all)
Speaking to the people then and there he said... this generation.
If this does not close the case completely (and it should)
Should it not be considered that he said this in the very context of the coming destruction of the temple (Matt 24:1-3) and that it did happen as prophesied within that generation?
Should it not be considered that the preponderance of the early church fathers found the fulfillment of Jesus' words in these events:
quote:
Athanasius
"And when He Who spake unto Moses, the Word of the Father, appeared in the end of the world, He also gave this commandment, saying, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" [Matt. 10:23]; and shortly after He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes" [Matt. 24:15]. Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defense of His Flight [11])
Augustine
"Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)
Eusebius Pamphilius
"But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)
Clement of Alexandria
"For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction... These two thousand three hundred days make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)
Chrysostom
"For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
"Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by" abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, "of desolation." Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be while some of them are alive, therefore He said, "When ye see the abomination of desolation." (Of Matthew 24:1,2)
"And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 11/21/2009 2:03:36 PM >
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 1:54:25 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 248
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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[Edited by moderator - responding to deleted material]
quote:
Thess:2 warns them not to get excited about the day of the Lord coming in their time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
It is always best to quote scripture directly particularly when you would have such a strong point - but you misquoted and misrepresented the text which reads:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." (2 Thess 2:1-3)
The text only affirms that the day had not yet come, and would not come until the man of lawlessness was revealed. The text does not even come close to suggesting that they would not have to worry about it at all because it would not be in their lifetime! The fact that he was then being held back supports the traditional view that he was then alive and was likely to be associated with Nero.
When they received a copy of Revelation would they naturally have a tendency to think that they were the ones being addresses? The proof of my other point requires a little more in volume of reverences than just that one. A little further down is this verse below which takes us to another verse that they had already been given. To be taught that when a believer (and non-believer)dies they are sleeping a dreamless. Death has no effect on whether a person is gathered at Christ's coming or not, in fact the dead would be with Christ and witness the gathering of the still living.
2Th:2:15:
Therefore,
brethren,
stand fast,
and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word,
or our epistle.
1Th:4:13:
But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren,
concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.
1Th:4:14:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th:4:15:
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th:4:16:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th:4:17:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th:4:18:
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
When they did read Revelation they would have taken the 'generation' as being a future generation that witnesses what it covers. The above is followed by this. Being told that what the living will see is not a real good sign that you will see them. Your path is most likely the one that has just been taught to you. The dead arise before the living are gathered.
1Th:5:1:
But of the times and the seasons,
brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Don't you think it strange that Paul didn't respond to those who believed that the day had already come - "are you nuts? - the planet hasn't blown up! Bodies didn't float into outer space! Christ did not descend on a cumulus cloud!" - It is clear that in Jewish mindset the terminology employed was in keeping with what the same terminology meant throughout the OT - an end of the age... not an end of the planet.
You are supposing that they were thinking and talking about that before this letter arrived. This Church was doing quite well according to Paul. Scipture shows that the epistles that were written to one congregation were also mean to be (copies) sent to all the other Churches. The 4 Gospels were also making the rounds for the 1st time in some places. Revelation was the last book written so they would have gotten it after a letter addressed directly to them.
2Th:1:3:
We are bound to thank God always for you,
brethren,
as it is meet,
because that your faith groweth exceedingly,
and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th:1:4:
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Jesus said:
"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
Isn't the coming already defined just a few verses prior to your reference? By the time they had gone to just a few cities (of the world) the Spirit of God would be supplying the words used in teaching the Gospel to certain people. A chat on a dusty road between just a few people might have them explaining things in their own words.
M't:10:19:
But when they deliver you up,
take no thought how or what ye shall speak:
for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
M't:10:20:
For it is not ye that speak,
but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28)
Six days later 3 saw the vision on the mountain, Stephen was not there so his vision is not counted but Peter and the writer of Revelation were there so their visions into Heaven do count towards fulfillment of that statement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
"This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
This is about 70 AD because they are being captured and led into the Nations as captives. Minor differences include surrounded by armies vs an abomination standing where it should not be such as a throne in a temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem. Below the armis are the victors vs the Nations being judged and many of them perish. What all is fulfilled at a time like that is the details given in the 70 weeks, 70 AD was the being made desolate words. the 'until' time is called the time of the Gentiles
Lu:21:22:
For these be the days of vengeance,
that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Lu:21:23:
But woe unto them that are with child,
and to them that give suck,
in those days!
for there shall be great distress in the land,
and wrath upon this people.
Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
There does seem to be a consistent idea here doesn't there? But do you know what you did? You suggested to the reader that Christ is speaking of three different things in these verses. You suggest that Matt 10 deals with Stephen's vision of Christ at his stoning, that Matthew 16 deals with the transfiguration, and that Matthew 24 deals with a different generation than the one he was speaking to - a generation far removed from their time. Surely you understand why the casual reader of these texts would have a difficult time with your navigation. You said that these verses "are meant for the ones alive when those verses start to manifest."
When it says 'you that sees certain thing' continues with 'you shall not die before all these things come to pass.
Stephen saw into Heaven but it is quite unlikely he was not there to hear the words you'. Why would seeing Jesus as described in Revelation not be a fulfillment of the 'some of you standing here shall not taste death' statement? Revelation would be seeing into the kingdom of Heaven, Peters vision Acts was seeing into Heaven and being baptized with the Holy Spirit is something that comes with being in the Kingdom of Heaven. The mount of olive sermon is quite complicated because so many different times are dealt. The major difference is 70 AD was a dispersal into the Nations, the day of the Lord is the end of the dispersal. just that point will be enough to separate who the words are meant for, the Apostles or the generation alive when His return is down to being a few years away, As far as when things get accomplished I would put the Temple as being spiritually desolate when Jesus said these words and walked out.
M't:23:38: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
If this does not close the case completely (and it should)
The verses prior are events that show how some things will be when Christ returns, these verses are for the Apostles themselves. This is what they will endure in their lifetime while spreading the Gospel into the Gentile world.
Lu:21:12:
But before all these,
they shall lay their hands on you,
and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues,
and into prisons,
being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
All 3 versions of this sermon need to be examined in minute detail. No small task.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Should it not be considered that he said this in the very context of the coming destruction of the temple (Matt 24:1-3) and that it did happen as prophesied within that generation?
Certainly, but destruction-- pause (long pause by man's standards) -- Christ's return -- He alone builds a new Temple -- all of Israel called to come home is the sequence the Bible promotes. The same generation that sees the destruction will not be alive to see the return. The writer of Revelation might have lived to be very old for that time but even at 70AD they would have been elderly and still writing about the gathering. You will allow a block of time, that is not said to be broken, to be divided by 1,000's of years yet having any large number of years be applied to the time between the start of the 'time of the Gentiles' and when it is said to end (His return), this is not even easily considered by those who promote that things/events/times from Revelation have already happened.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Should it not be considered that the preponderance of the early church fathers found the fulfillment of Jesus' words in these events:
I totally believe the writers of the Bible, the teachers that came after the last writer died do not have the same faith that they got it right. Church and State have always had to coexist.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
quote:
Athanasius
"And when He Who spake unto Moses, the Word of the Father, appeared in the end of the world, He also gave this commandment, saying, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" [Matt. 10:23]; and shortly after He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes" [Matt. 24:15]. Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defense of His Flight [11])
'Shortly after can be 1,000's of years in real-time. Verses are subject related, the same subject can span 1,000's of years. This verse below is an example of how 1 verse can span a large block of time. It was 1,000's of years from the announcement until the first of two bruises, it is already close to 2,000's since then and the 2nd bruise is still somewhere in the future.
Ge:3:15:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The change in who was being addressed in in this verse, the Apostles should have known they would not live long enough to have the Gospel preached to the ends of the world. They were probably aware that they would remain alive until all they had to write was written.
M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
M't:24:15:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Augustine
"Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)
As I stated earlier about this, this does not have to be a reference to the abomination. If Jews are being taken captive into the Nations it is 70 AD. If it just says they are taken captive that can mean death. When defining who from Israel will be resurrected it included those who died in Herod's slaughter of the innocents. They are said to be brought back from the land of the enemy.
The desolation you mention as being close is not the one from Daniel 11, the desolation that is close is the not one stone left on another one. Capture also took place and I assume those who could simply ran away to hide in the Nations somewhere. In the verse below the time of an end that comes after is introduced, the next verse stay in that newly introduced time.
Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
((pause here while that allotted time passes and then the signs that apply to that last generation start to unfold in a set manor))
Lu:21:25:
And there shall be signs in the sun,
and in the moon,
and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity;
the sea and the waves roaring;
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Eusebius Pamphilius
"But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)
Prophecy said that Temple was going to come down, the OT said it and Jesus repeated it, the Temple would not last. Saul's type of persecution was commonplace in Israel and in the Nations so I doubt there were even any Christians in Israel, let alone Jerusalem herself. The ones left would be these ones and how much pity should I feel for them when I know Jesus will give them life again. In 70Ad Christ had His back to these ones, at His return they regain life and they do just what the verse implies.
M't:23:39:
For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Clement of Alexandria
"For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction... These two thousand three hundred days make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)
Nero is not a built image, that is what the abomination is, the image of Re:13
quote:
ORIGINAL: claycup2
Chrysostom
"For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
"Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by" abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, "of desolation." Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be while some of them are alive, therefore He said, "When ye see the abomination of desolation." (Of Matthew 24:1,2)
"And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)
The abomination is a throne on Holy Ground on which a person (False Prophet) sits and proclaims he is Christ. Satan is going to attempt to deceive all people that he is God. It is only Christ's arrival that shows how false it is. The people that are front and center will not have a clue. Those see the coming as a thief in the night event.
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 11/21/2009 10:40:21 PM >
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 2:09:59 PM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 2:22:21 PM
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claycup2
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Joined: 11/19/2009
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Stranger you have a truely unique way of approaching scripture.
It's been a great discussion.
Thanks crosswalk!
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 6:46:49 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 802
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, everyone.
OH, FOR PETE'S SAKE! Are y'all SERIOUS??!!! C'mon, brothers! Where in the world do you get all this ... stuff?!
Look, let's take the verses you guys have been bantering about:
"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
TAKE THIS IN CONTEXT!
Matt 10:1-11:1
1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:
"Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10 take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11 "Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!
26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn...
"'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
1 After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.
NIV
Have you ever looked at a map of haErets Isra'el (the Land of Isra'el)? There are many, many little towns and villages throughout the country today just as it used to be in Yeshua`s day. He was sending His students ahead of Him to announce His soon arrival into their towns! He gave them power to do miracles--their credentials that they were indeed heralds of the Messiah.
But, it was not to be an easy mission; they would meet up with opposition. However, Yeshua` promised them that the Spirit of His Father would go with them and smoothe the way before them. But verse 23 is merely saying that He, the Son of Man, would catch up to them as they went before they ran out of towns and villages to go to which they were sent. But notice in verses 5 and 6 that they were NOT sent to the towns and villages outside of Isra'el! This was His presentation to Isra'el--on a one-by-one basis--that He was indeed the Messiah of God, the Anointed One of God, to be the King of Isra'el!
More to come...
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 10:35:00 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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