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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2009 9:45:36 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
The purpose of the spiritual gifts is the edification of others -- NOT self-edification (1 Cor. 14:3; Eph. 4:12,13).
Nice post and I agree with the most of it, but to discount that praying in tongues for self-edification; is to discount the following Scripture;
(Jud 1:20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
That verse is instructionatory to praying in the Holy Ghost specifically for the edification of one's own faith. (self-edification).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2009 11:17:16 AM
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raivyne
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rc i think that was from someone else's post, but he didn't quote and it came out difficult to follow (or maybe it was just difficult for me to follow?).
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I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2009 9:29:33 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
The purpose of the spiritual gifts is the edification of others -- NOT self-edification (1 Cor. 14:3; Eph. 4:12,13).
Nice post and I agree with the most of it, but to discount that praying in tongues for self-edification; is to discount the following Scripture;
(Jud 1:20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
That verse is instructionatory to praying in the Holy Ghost specifically for the edification of one's own faith. (self-edification).
Thanks
RC
Hello rcjames
This is what did,
I wrote out the scripture from post #2794, I wanted the scripture passages to be openly read then I asked Ezra a question and told my story. Then I gave a website explaining what my Church group teaches about the Gift of Tongues. I'm sorry for being confusing.
Here are examples to that statement...instructionatory to praying in the Holy Ghost specifically for the edification of one's own faith. (self-edification).
Please follow what is in red and I'm sure you'll remember the rest of these passages.
Matthew 26:36-45
Jesus Prays in Gethsemane
36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go over there and pray." 37And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." 40And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done." 43And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. 45Then he came to the disciples and said to them, "Sleep and take your rest later on. See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
John 5:30-40
Witnesses to Jesus
30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 3/20/2009 9:53:26 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2009 10:54:03 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 3617
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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i see at least four purposes:
1) initial evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6)
2) edification of church when interpreted (1 Cor 12:10)
3) sign for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22)
4) provision for effect prayer & praise (1 Cor 14:2, 14)
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2009 5:55:26 PM
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dkgnew
Posts: 106
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Two things...
1. my wife came from a Church that did NOT preach\teach about the Holy Spirit (HS) other to say that he fills you upon Baptism. we had several passionate debates about this. this was what i eventually did...
***I went to seek the face of God...and I said (and also told her about this): "Lord Jesus, if my wife and I are truly seeking your will and ways, and want to be obedient to all you want us to, then it is totally impossible for us to not be on the same page*** unless, one (or both) of us is walking in PRIDE! Lord, please, make this clear!***
She read this Scripture (and others) several times over about a year later and was persuaded without any input from me that water Baptism and the HS baptism were TWO separate events:
Acts 8: 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 ¶Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
then she studied this SCRIPTURE (and others) for herself with a pure "Student's" approach...
1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/24/2009 9:24:38 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 3617
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i just don't see Simon the Sorcerer desiring to buy this ability to grant the Holy Spirit without the supernatural power of tongues ...
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/25/2009 7:25:34 PM
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7over6
Posts: 236
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From: new braunfels Tx
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I just jumped in here (I am new) and am not going to read all 113 pages but... I would like to list the 3 types of tongues I have learned about int the scriptures. it seems all to often people against tongues refer to one kind but then are all confussed because they think it is all just one gift. Not understanding the types of tongues mixes one up quite well.
1. Personal prayer type from individual to Gods
1Cor 14:2,4 Jude :20
2. Foreign tongue supernaturally translated to a foreign individual for sharing of gospel.
Acts 2:5-11
3. Type to be interpreted for a congregation- a message from God.
1 Cor 14:13,28
Types 2 and 3 are surely a sign to unbelievers if they are true since they are supernatural in origin. Although they may well freak out an unbeliever or a visitor to the church as menioned in 1Cor 14:22-23
It appears quite clear that salvation weather with or without water is seperate from Holy Spirit. But I am undecided if tongues MUST be present to confirm the baptism of the Holy Spirit afterall tongues is just another spiritual gift- no? Although it is quite a personal one.
I am reading "The Gifts and the Ministries of the Holy Spirit" by Lester Sumerall for school and I cannot wait to finish it. I will be sure to drop any goodies in here as I learn them.
I have heard many testimonies or people I know and read about that had never heard what tongues typically sounds like, yet they had salvation and an unquenchable hunger for truth and further things of God in there life- upon simply ASKING they found themselves to be speaking in tongues just as is common in what we know of as tongues- yet they ahd not preconceptions or manipulations by someone nor was it a self fulfilled prophecy! I love those stories because it testifies the genuineness and the usefulness of tongues.
It is not just a showy flashy, soulical thing- it has a legit place in peoples testimonies and victories! It's a real working tool.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 3/28/2009 1:17:01 AM
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Sammy_S
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Please read this:
quote:
During the first 500 years of the Church, the only time you really see any claim to tongues are the followers of Montanist, who was branded a heretic. The next time any significant tongue speaking arises is in the late 17th century. A group of militant Protestants in the Sevenall (sp.) region of southern France began to prophesy, experience visions, and speak in tongues--now we're talking the 17th century. They were known as the Sevenall Prophets and they were remembered for their political and military activities, not their spiritual legacy. Many of their prophecies were unfulfilled. They were rabidly anti-Catholic and advocated the use of armed force against the Catholic Church. Many of them were consequently persecuted and killed by Rome.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/CHAOS10.HTM
Read the entire sermon to understand what he was saying.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2009 2:51:43 PM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iakovos
Tongues amongst Pentecostals and Charismatics is, for the most part, group hypnosis. Excuse the pun but that is utter nonsense. Unscriptural, illogical, contra historical nonsense. Group hypnosis!? Sheesh. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water!
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 7:27:34 AM
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jfcbrian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/1/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
Please read this:
quote:
During the first 500 years of the Church, the only time you really see any claim to tongues are the followers of Montanist, who was branded a heretic. The next time any significant tongue speaking arises is in the late 17th century. A group of militant Protestants in the Sevenall (sp.) region of southern France began to prophesy, experience visions, and speak in tongues--now we're talking the 17th century. They were known as the Sevenall Prophets and they were remembered for their political and military activities, not their spiritual legacy. Many of their prophecies were unfulfilled. They were rabidly anti-Catholic and advocated the use of armed force against the Catholic Church. Many of them were consequently persecuted and killed by Rome.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/CHAOS10.HTM
Read the entire sermon to understand what he was saying.
Hi I'm new to this discussion and I found this sermon very interesting.
First I want to say that I attend a church that believes in speaking in tongues. For me it has been hard to wrap my mind around the concept however I have read the scriptures involved but not actually studied them.
This sermon has given me a chance.
First I have to say that I ignored most of the commentary about what other Pentecostal churches are doing because none of these practices are practice in my church. So I would have to take Pastor John MacArthur's word for it. Besides I want to know what the word of God has to say and not just what some one says it says.(if that makes any sense.)
The first scripture that pastor John discusses is Mark 16:17 and this is what he says about it.
quote:
Then it appears in Mark 16:17; it simply mentions tongues as one of the gifts that would be expressed in the time of the apostles' ministry. And again it fits into that unique historic Apostolic time period in which there was miraculous phenomena, signs and wonders, as God pointed to the apostles who were speaking His truth. On the day of Pentecost this sign drew the crowd to which Peter preached the gospel, for example.
Now this is what Mark 16:15-18 says.
quote:
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17“And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18“they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.
Notice that their is no mention of any specific time period but only that signs and wonders would follow all believers. Are there no more demons to cast out today?
Know if I had just read Pastor John's sermon and not investigated the Word myself I would be saying that he makes a lot of sense, in fact I did that very thing at first. I started to have doubts that speaking in tongues was for real.
My first impression of this sermon is that it is a little deceptive and cherry picks scripture. I have only studied the first part and will continue my study in the word and his sermon.
I above all am more concerned in knowing the truth than being right.
God Bless you
Brian
_____________________________
Brian
God Bless
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 8:20:03 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfcbrian
Know if I had just read Pastor John's sermon and not investigated the Word myself I would be saying that he makes a lot of sense, in fact I did that very thing at first. I started to have doubts that speaking in tongues was for real.
My first impression of this sermon is that it is a little deceptive and cherry picks scripture. I have only studied the first part and will continue my study in the word and his sermon.
I above all am more concerned in knowing the truth than being right.
You make some very good points here Brian.
Most folks do not search out the Scripture used in messages, and certainly do not search out context and other Scripture references to those being used. This is why so many folks can be led around by the nose with sermons that are put together with an agenda.
Cult leaders do this all the time, and sadly occasionally so do serious Bible teachers; such as John McAuthur does here. We all need to see the whole counsel of Scripture when studying and/learning the Word on all subjects, not just the cherry picked parts that support our personal preferences.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 2:00:38 PM
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jfcbrian
Posts: 29
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Hi RC,
I just wanted to share something with you and the rest of this forum.
As I studied 1 cor. 12-14 I started to get a little discouraged because it started to appear that Pastor John MacArthur was at least partly right about the misuse of tongues in the church. Even worse but I attend a church and am on the Board of a church that will at times speak in tongues at different times throughout the services. I was starting to believe that we were much like the Corinthian church in our practice of tongues. This feeling is mostly because I let Pastor John's teaching infect my spirit.
Well during our worship service today we had one of our members (who was in his own right a pentecostal preacher.) Who asked the pastor to allow him to speak. Our pastor, being the man of God that he is, gave him the microphone. Long story short this preacher felt like God wanted everyone who needed healing to come forward to have him and the pastor lay hands on them. As people with need started making there way up to the front everyone else started to pray and yes some of them prayed in tongues. Thats when heard the Holy Spirit show me that there was a order to our services it was his order. When other look at us from the outside it may look like discourse but we were really in one accord with the Holy Spirit.
For me this was a powerful revelation and I wanted to share it with the rest of you.
_____________________________
Brian
God Bless
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 3:22:31 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
Tonight, in one sense I have a difficult, impossible task; and that is to cover a subject that needs to be covered thoughtfully and carefully. In another sense, while very challenging and almost impossible to fully accomplish, I welcome the opportunity to share with you some insights that will help you to be discerning as you look at a very important issue in the Charismatic movement today; and that is this matter of "Speaking in Tongues."
Well, here are the opening lines from that sermon following the link provided by Sammy_S......let me point out immediately, that the sign of tongues is NOT particular to the Charismatic movement only.
I was raised in a church that taught that not only was speaking in tongues not for 'today', but those who did speak in tongues, did so demonically under the power of satan. I have, therefore, pretty much heard the arguments against it. I did my own research when I became old enough and sought God and he filled me with His Spirit and yes, I began to speak in tongues and do so to this day and have studied much about it.
The main purpose of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is to enable the Christian to live a life for the glory of God...flesh and blood cannot do this on it's own. There are various gifts...tongues is described as a sign.
I have wondered at the vehmanence displayed through those who would like to do away with tongues and are adamant that it is no longer in existance today despite the many who know differently. What would the opponents like to do with us all then? Deliver us? Well, I guess not, since Christians, according to that same group, cannot be indwelt or seriously hampered by demons.
So, I guess we will simply have to go on praising our Lord in our own tongue and in the one(s) He has bestowed upon us.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 12:01:52 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 635
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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SPEAKING IN TONGUES THROUGHOUT HISTORY
Introduction
The controversy that exists among Theologians concerning
"speaking in tongues" is not a new subject.
It is about as old as the Christian Church itself.
Paul dealt with the problem of tongues with the Corinthian Church
around 57 A.D. Writers following the apostles continued to deal with
it. It is not the intention of this writing to prove a biblical
existence of tongues, for the Word of God clearly defines itself on
that subject. But much of the contention of tongues lies in their
continuance following the first century.
Many would like to say they ceased with the apostles. Others
contend they lost their usefulness and therefore disappeared.
The fact is that they did neither. The following is an accumulation
of evidence concerning tongues as found in history.
CONTINUES HERE
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 6/10/2009 12:35:32 PM >
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 3:19:15 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfcbrian
Hi RC,
I just wanted to share something with you and the rest of this forum.
As I studied 1 cor. 12-14 I started to get a little discouraged because it started to appear that Pastor John MacArthur was at least partly right about the misuse of tongues in the church. Even worse but I attend a church and am on the Board of a church that will at times speak in tongues at different times throughout the services. I was starting to believe that we were much like the Corinthian church in our practice of tongues. This feeling is mostly because I let Pastor John's teaching infect my spirit.
Well during our worship service today we had one of our members (who was in his own right a pentecostal preacher.) Who asked the pastor to allow him to speak. Our pastor, being the man of God that he is, gave him the microphone. Long story short this preacher felt like God wanted everyone who needed healing to come forward to have him and the pastor lay hands on them. As people with need started making there way up to the front everyone else started to pray and yes some of them prayed in tongues. Thats when heard the Holy Spirit show me that there was a order to our services it was his order. When other look at us from the outside it may look like discourse but we were really in one accord with the Holy Spirit.
For me this was a powerful revelation and I wanted to share it with the rest of you.
Thank you for sharing that experience jfcbrian.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 3:21:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
SPEAKING IN TONGUES THROUGHOUT HISTORY
Introduction
The controversy that exists among Theologians concerning
"speaking in tongues" is not a new subject.
It is about as old as the Christian Church itself.
Paul dealt with the problem of tongues with the Corinthian Church
around 57 A.D. Writers following the apostles continued to deal with
it. It is not the intention of this writing to prove a biblical
existence of tongues, for the Word of God clearly defines itself on
that subject. But much of the contention of tongues lies in their
continuance following the first century.
Many would like to say they ceased with the apostles. Others
contend they lost their usefulness and therefore disappeared.
The fact is that they did neither. The following is an accumulation
of evidence concerning tongues as found in history.
...
Thank you Wacotton; I wrote one of my dissertations on the history of glossilalia throughout the history of the Church; it was an eye opener; and you are spot on.
Thanks
RC
[quoted text edited by moderator]
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 6/10/2009 12:41:01 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2009 8:24:29 AM
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jfcbrian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/1/2005
Status: offline
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Great post Bill.
_____________________________
Brian
God Bless
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2009 10:50:50 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 635
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Just to be clear, I did not write the article on tongues through out history.
I do not know who the author is but it is very well done.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2009 7:44:42 PM
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martyro
Posts: 4
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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I'd like to jump in and make some observations. I have read MacArthur's sermons on tongues the one listed here and others. I have read the "history of tongues" from here and other places and studied this in excess. I believe that the "problem" with tongues is that... it seems to cause a "problem".
I have heard MacArthur speak on this as well as those who oppose his view. I have friends who have the gift and others who believe it is no longer with us. Some get along fine, others do not.
I was raised in a church where tongues was not practiced it was viewed as a gift and is a gift that comes with specific "Terms of Use" nothing more nothing less. I currently attend a church where some believe various interpretations and hermeneutics regrading tongues and am witnessing how it is used to tear down the church.
I have discovered the several unanswered questions in my circles. Here's a big one:
I have never witnessed a time when tongues is done in a group according to the instructions given in 1 Corinthians 14.
When approached regarding this question in a loving way after a brother or sister has spoken in tongues, the person who "spoke" dismisses the question and simply says "you would understand if you spoke in tongues" or "you obviously missed the movement of the Spirit".
God's word is clear in this case yet it is dismissed because I don't have the gift? The reply amount's to the bumper sticker "It's a Jeep thing you wouldn't understand"? This causes much confusion among believers trying to follow Gods word. First they are dismissed which is not in the Spirit of God. Second the gift was not performed according to what the Spirit of God spoke into Paul? So therefore how should one view what was done if it was done in opposition to what the Spirit of God said?
Here is another. I have witnessed that speaking in tongues is a gift that can be taught. In other words one can learn the gift of tongues from another believer? How can a gift given by the Spirit of God be taught to another? This alludes to the points MacArthur writes in regard to "group hypnosis" MacArthur uses a strong choice of words here ones that I would not use, but in this instance (not all) tongues is an influenced result by a person or persons and not by the Spirit?. This seems to stem from a pride that I could teach someone a gift of the Holy Spirit of God?
Please understand I am not dismissing the gift of tongues because Scripture says not to but these questions and others I have found lead to the fact that the enemy is at work here in regard to this very thing and much discernment must be used.
< Message edited by martyro -- 6/4/2009 8:01:36 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2009 3:30:23 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 635
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyro
I'd like to jump in and make some observations. I have read MacArthur's sermons on tongues the one listed here and others. I have read the "history of tongues" from here and other places and studied this in excess. I believe that the "problem" with tongues is that... it seems to cause a "problem".
Righteousness and truth always cause problems, especially with those who don't believe.
Also there are many abuses of the gifts of the Spirit which causes trouble but that does not negate the real.
quote:
I have heard MacArthur speak on this as well as those who oppose his view. I have friends who have the gift and others who believe it is no longer with us. Some get along fine, others do not.
I was raised in a church where tongues was not practiced it was viewed as a gift and is a gift that comes with specific "Terms of Use" nothing more nothing less. I currently attend a church where some believe various interpretations and hermeneutics regrading tongues and am witnessing how it is used to tear down the church.
All gifts of the Spirit should be for the edification of the church.
Anything else is not of God.
quote:
I have discovered the several unanswered questions in my circles. Here's a big one:
I have never witnessed a time when tongues is done in a group according to the instructions given in 1 Corinthians 14.
When approached regarding this question in a loving way after a brother or sister has spoken in tongues, the person who "spoke" dismisses the question and simply says "you would understand if you spoke in tongues" or "you obviously missed the movement of the Spirit".
God's word is clear in this case yet it is dismissed because I don't have the gift? The reply amount's to the bumper sticker "It's a Jeep thing you wouldn't understand"? This causes much confusion among believers trying to follow Gods word. First they are dismissed which is not in the Spirit of God. Second the gift was not performed according to what the Spirit of God spoke into Paul? So therefore how should one view what was done if it was done in opposition to what the Spirit of God said?
What exactly do you think the instructions say?
Also there is a distinction between tongues as a prayer language and tongues as a means of prophesy.
quote:
Here is another. I have witnessed that speaking in tongues is a gift that can be taught. In other words one can learn the gift of tongues from another believer? How can a gift given by the Spirit of God be taught to another? This alludes to the points MacArthur writes in regard to "group hypnosis" MacArthur uses a strong choice of words here ones that I would not use, but in this instance (not all) tongues is an influenced result by a person or persons and not by the Spirit?. This seems to stem from a pride that I could teach someone a gift of the Holy Spirit of God?
A person cannot be taught how to speak in tongues.
However one can be taught how to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes a person might explain how they did it to try to eliminate confusion.
quote:
Please understand I am not dismissing the gift of tongues because Scripture says not to but these questions and others I have found lead to the fact that the enemy is at work here in regard to this very thing and much discernment must be used.
I think one of the greatest evidences that tounges are real is how much they are abused and discredited.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 9:22:16 AM
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jfcbrian
Posts: 29
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I don't worry so much about how others miss use or abuse there gifts.
It's more important for me to follow scripture and be sure that I'm not miss using my gifts.
_____________________________
Brian
God Bless
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 11:54:59 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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I am new to this thread and do not have the time or energy to review 113 pages of posts. Would some of you be willing to summarize previous discussion regarding the concept of glossolalia as speaking in known (foreign) languages as contrasted with speaking in unintelligible ecstatic utterances. I am particularly concerned about the following exerpts from the above linked article:
quote:
"The speaking with tongues, however, was not confined to the day of Pentecost. Together with the other extraordinary spiritual gifts which distinguished this age above the succeeding periods of more quiet and natural development, this gift also though to be sure in a modified form, perpetuated itself in the apostolic Church. We find traces of it still in the second and third centuries."
Then here is a description of the "modified form":quote:
Among the Church fathers that lived following the death of John the Revelator in 98 A.D., Montanus of Phrygia stands as a leader in the support of tongues. Eusebius, a fourth century Church historian writes that the followers of Montanus would be "carried away in spirit, and wrought up into a certain kind of frenzy and irregular ecstasy, raving, and speaking, and uttering strange things."
So, my point and question is how do we get from speaking in known languages to frenzied, raving, strange utterances in about a century of church history?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 12:42:58 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
So, my point and question is how do we get from speaking in known languages to frenzied, raving, strange utterances in about a century of church history?
Scripture speaks to the gifts of tongues here;
(1Co 12:10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Please not the plural (multiple) gifts of tongues. not one kind, not two, but diverse kinds of tongues.
Scripture is very plain about there being multiple kinds (Types) of tongues.
Prayer language;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
This is man speaking to God, and since no man understands it; it would probable sound like gibberish.
And
(1Co 14:14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Absolutely defines prayer in tongues and prayer in a lanuage the one praying understands. Please note that Paul does not say that those praying in tongues must be interpreted, but that if the one praying wants someone in attendance to understand the prayer; then he will pray in a known language so the hearer can understand, and say amen to the prayer.
Prophecy in tongues;
(1Co 14:26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
(1Co 14:27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Prophecy in tongues is God speaking to man, and must be interpreted so that all understand.
Tongues in a known language that the speaker does not understand, but that someone in attendance does;
(Act 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(Act 2:5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
(Act 2:6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Scripture speaks to at least three kinds (types) of tongues (Four if one considers singing unto God as differentiated from prayer unto God)
When one understands that Scriptures speaks to different kinds (Types) of tongues; a lot of the confusion really goes away.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 4:09:48 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Please not the plural (multiple) gifts of tongues. not one kind, not two, but diverse kinds of tongues.
Scripture is very plain about there being multiple kinds (Types) of tongues. Well, I'm no Greek scholar, but why couldn't the "divers kinds of tongues" refer to the various foreign languages spoken by those needing to hear the Gospel? I personally think it's stretching the context to interpret this as Scriptural evidence for multiple gifts of glossolalia. The other forms of tongues you described may be available but they do not seem to me to be on par with the specific spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12. Thanks for your response, Brother James, I await for others.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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