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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 4:13:05 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Please not the plural (multiple) gifts of tongues. not one kind, not two, but diverse kinds of tongues.
Scripture is very plain about there being multiple kinds (Types) of tongues. Well, I'm no Greek scholar, but why couldn't the "divers kinds of tongues" refer to the various foreign languages spoken by those needing to hear the Gospel? I personally think it's stretching the context to interpret this as Scriptural evidence for multiple gifts of glossolalia. The other forms of tongues you described may be available but they do not seem to me to be on par with the specific spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12. Thanks for your response, Brother James, I await for others.
Not when it is compared to the different types of tongues that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 14; singing, praying, prophesying, some that no one understands, some that only an interpreter understands; etc. Some where man speaks to God, some where God speaks to man, etc.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/11/2009 4:22:08 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 4:45:16 PM
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solarflare
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Generic post. Not intended to single out or poke anyone.
The unclear part is why people choose to disbelieve, ignore, gloss over and otherwise decide that the gifts, speaking in tongues in particular, is 'not for them.' Or 'not for today anymore'.
I have come to the conclusion that really, if a person's heart is honest and they go before the One who dispenses the gifts in the first place, they will recieve all the answers they need as to whether or not these gifts still exist and or are relevant.
However, when a person comes with the attitude of 'prove it to me' directed at another human being, they are much less likely to receive that which they deny and promptly decide that those who speak in tongues are all whack jobs.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 5:36:09 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Generic post. Not intended to single out or poke anyone.
The unclear part is why people choose to disbelieve, ignore, gloss over and otherwise decide that the gifts, speaking in tongues in particular, is 'not for them.' Or 'not for today anymore'.
I have come to the conclusion that really, if a person's heart is honest and they go before the One who dispenses the gifts in the first place, they will recieve all the answers they need as to whether or not these gifts still exist and or are relevant.
However, when a person comes with the attitude of 'prove it to me' directed at another human being, they are much less likely to receive that which they deny and promptly decide that those who speak in tongues are all whack jobs.
That's actually a pretty good post.
Where I've long had a problem is the assumption that if a believer dosen't speak in tongues that they haven't sincerely sought the gift because any believer that desires it deeply enough will receive the "gift". It's sort of a reverse prideful judgment against another servant of Jesus.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2009 7:32:13 PM
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rcjames
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Paul spoke of the benefits of tongues, and said that he would that all spoke with tongues; but he definately did not disaparage those who did not.
Some in my congregation do pray in tongues, some do not; occasionally (not regular by any stretch) we have a prophecy in tongues followed by an interpretation. More often folks share something that God has shown them, and they do so in english.
No one in the congregation is uppity about whether they do or whether they do not speak in tongues.
My guiding priciple in this area is last two verses of the chapter that Paul wrote on the correct usage of some of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:40) Let all things be done decently and in order.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 6:19:21 AM
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7over6
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Does anyone in here believe that upon salvation you receive the Spirit of God into your spirit aka "Indwelling", and upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit you receive the "empowerment" side so that gifts may be used. Whereas indwelling allows the Holy Spirit to do what He does - convicting, comforting, teaching etc. ?
This is what I find in scripture that salvation and infilling of the Holy Spirit are seperate events, though they have happened together in some cases. It seems you cannot work in the gifts of the Spirit until you have received the empowerment of Him and not just the infilling.
Any thoughts?
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 7:25:36 AM
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DaveW
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7over6 - your position is very close to that taken by PRMI - that the HS comes within one at salvation for growth and character development and that He comes upon a person for works of power. THey do a great indepth look at the Greek terms in the NT in a book by PRMI president, Rev. Z. Brad Long called "Receive the Power."
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 7:32:27 AM
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DaveW
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From a thread now closed and redirected here:quote:
Original: kyangel
I have grown up in a Baptist church and recieved christ when I was 14 and I'm 19 now. Reciently a friend from school introduced me to his church. He is Apostolic but I don't see any major differences in our beliefs.. except one. His denomination believes that when you recieve the holy spirit in your life you speak in tongues but I was not raised to believe that. But I've done research on it and it is in the Bible. I think I need advice. I mean I feel that when I confessed that Jesus was sent to die for me that I also recieved the Holy Spirit but their beliefs are saying that I didn't.
They are very sweet people and are not in anyway pressuring me to speak in tongues but the whole subject made me curious to know other peoples views on it. They are really passionate and I like that about their denomination. I've been going there twice a week but I have been going to my own church twice a week as well. I don't know.. I just feel that maybe there is something I am missing in my walk with God that I've never experienced before and that I should be open to it.. any thoughts?
This was redirected here due to discussion on whether tongues were required for salvation or are required evidence of the baptism in the Spirit.
However, I want to address something more fundamental with the Apostolic congregations. Kyangel: run from this place as fast as you can. The "Jesus" they teach is NOT the one in the bible. They believe that if you are baptized in the name of Father Son and Spirit (or Holy Ghost) you are bound for hell. Their formula is in the name of Jesus ONLY. They do not believe in the Father or the Holy Spirit as persons within the Godhead, but that Jesus is the only God and he sometimes appears as a Father or a Holy Ghost. They are called Modalists.
Please - this is a serious doctrinal error. Get away fast.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 7:42:51 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Does anyone in here believe that upon salvation you receive the Spirit of God into your spirit aka "Indwelling", and upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit you receive the "empowerment" side so that gifts may be used. Whereas indwelling allows the Holy Spirit to do what He does - convicting, comforting, teaching etc. ? This doctrinal understanding is also closely akin to "second blessing" Holiness tradition. It is often referred to as entire sanctification in which the Believer is empowered not only for service through gifting, but also (and more importantly) for victory over sin through the cleansing of the sinful nature by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. As the old-timers used to say - "When we are saved, we get all of God; when we are sanctified, He gets all of us!" Since this is not a thread about sinless perfection, I will not discuss this further, but you can join me on the Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread, if you wish 7over6.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:01:16 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Generic post. Not intended to single out or poke anyone.
The unclear part is why people choose to disbelieve, ignore, gloss over and otherwise decide that the gifts, speaking in tongues in particular, is 'not for them.' Or 'not for today anymore'.
I have come to the conclusion that really, if a person's heart is honest and they go before the One who dispenses the gifts in the first place, they will recieve all the answers they need as to whether or not these gifts still exist and or are relevant.
However, when a person comes with the attitude of 'prove it to me' directed at another human being, they are much less likely to receive that which they deny and promptly decide that those who speak in tongues are all whack jobs.
Well I certainly do not believe that people who speak in "tongues" are whack jobs however I do believe that the bible teaches that after Pentecost the miraculous gifts of the Spirit which included tongues were given at the laying on of the apostles hands only. Acts 8:18
So in conclusion the miraculous gifts died out with the apostles.
Also we must keep in mind the reason miracles occurred in the first place........to confirm God's word so men and woman would believe!
God's spoken word no longer needs to be confirmed because it is written!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:06:24 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I do believe that the bible teaches that after Pentecost the miraculous gifts of the Spirit which included tongues were given at the laying on of the apostles hands only. Acts 8:18 So - according to scripture, WHO laid hands on Paul and gave him the gift of tongues?
Act 9:17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
So was this Ananias one of the Apostles?
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:19:21 AM
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drmark
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Touche', Dave!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:26:51 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I do believe that the bible teaches that after Pentecost the miraculous gifts of the Spirit which included tongues were given at the laying on of the apostles hands only. Acts 8:18 So - according to scripture, WHO laid hands on Paul and gave him the gift of tongues?
Act 9:17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
So was this Ananias one of the Apostles?
He was filled with the Holy Spirit when he was baptized as all disciples of Jesus are
John 3:5, Acts 2:38
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:30:53 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbirdquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So - according to scripture, WHO laid hands on Paul and gave him the gift of tongues? He was filled with the Holy Spirit when he was baptized as all disciples of Jesus are
John 3:5, Acts 2:38 Did you forget this part? Answer the question.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:39:50 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbirdquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So - according to scripture, WHO laid hands on Paul and gave him the gift of tongues? He was filled with the Holy Spirit when he was baptized as all disciples of Jesus are
John 3:5, Acts 2:38 Did you forget this part? Answer the question.
I apologize!
The apostles did not need laying on of hands for miraculous gifts to be passed to them.
Paul was chosen to be an apostle. Apostles were given miraculous gifts by Jesus.
My whole point is that the average disciple of Jesus was not able to pass on the miraculous gifts only apostles.
Therefore when the apostles died so did the gift of passing miraculous gifts
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:50:15 AM
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DaveW
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Did you not read the text? It was Ananais that that passed on that gift to him.
You do realize there is no scriptural mandate that an apostle need be present for the presence of the Holy Spirit (as in the miraculous power and giftings) to be imparted, right? Just because in one instance it happened that way there is no evidence that it was anything other than a unique situation.
What about Acts 10 where the Spirit fell on the gentiles? No one laid hands on them. They were not baptized. They were not even Jews (a HUGE deal at the time). Since this instance is markedly different than what happened in Acts 2, it would seem that there is no specific order or mandatories other than believing (salvic faith) in the Lord.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 8:51:17 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Therefore when the apostles died so did the gift of passing miraculous gifts That's strange - I thought it was the Holy Spirit who "did the passing". I hadn't heard that He died yet! 
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 9:15:59 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Did you not read the text? It was Ananais that that passed on that gift to him.
You do realize there is no scriptural mandate that an apostle need be present for the presence of the Holy Spirit (as in the miraculous power and giftings) to be imparted, right? Just because in one instance it happened that way there is no evidence that it was anything other than a unique situation.
What about Acts 10 where the Spirit fell on the gentiles? No one laid hands on them. They were not baptized. They were not even Jews (a HUGE deal at the time). Since this instance is markedly different than what happened in Acts 2, it would seem that there is no specific order or mandatories other than believing (salvic faith) in the Lord.
Dave Acts 9:17 does not state that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him. Paul's sins were washed away when he was baptized. Acts 22:19
Also keep in mind God directly spoke to Ananias and gave him a special mission.
God does not audibly speak to us now directly.
He speaks to us through His word.
Concerning Acts 10 it was a special event very similar to Pentecost. It was a miracle from God to prove to the Jewish Christians that Gentiles were now allowed into the Church!
Before then Jewish CHristians had nothing to do with Gentiles! Read the text!
Another miracle to confirm God's word!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 9:54:46 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Dave Acts 9:17 does not state that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him. Paul's sins were washed away when he was baptized. Acts 22:19 So Ananias was lying when he said "...regain your sight and receive the Holy Spirit ?"
quote:
God does not audibly speak to us now directly. He speaks to us through His word. Can you give me chapter and verse for God not speaking directly? Are we not to relate to God directly? Does not relating involve communication? If it is only by reading the bible, I might just as well say I have a personal relationship with William Shakespeare or James Michener. quote:
Concerning Acts 10 it was a special event very similar to Pentecost. It was a miracle from God to prove to the Jewish Christians that Gentiles were now allowed into the Church!
Before then Jewish CHristians had nothing to do with Gentiles! Read the text! Yes it was. And the miracles continue today.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 10:09:50 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Well I certainly do not believe that people who speak in "tongues" are whack jobs however I do believe that the bible teaches that after Pentecost the miraculous gifts of the Spirit which included tongues were given at the laying on of the apostles hands only. Acts 8:18
So in conclusion the miraculous gifts died out with the apostles.
(Act 10:44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(Act 10:45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 10:46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
No laying on of hands here, and these were gentiles that recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 12:33:18 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Dave Acts 9:17 does not state that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him. Paul's sins were washed away when he was baptized. Acts 22:19 So Ananias was lying when he said "...regain your sight and receive the Holy Spirit ?"
Of course he wasn't lying. Paul received his sight and the Holy Spirit.
quote:
God does not audibly speak to us now directly. He speaks to us through His word. Can you give me chapter and verse for God not speaking directly?
Please tell me you do not hear the audible voice of God speaking to you.
quote:
Are we not to relate to God directly?
I never said that! We speak to God in prayer however God does not speak to us audibly. He speaks to us through His word.....The Bible!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 12:41:13 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Please tell me you do not hear the audible voice of God speaking to you. And what is wrong with that, jj? I would seriously question the spiritual maturity of anyone who denies that God can communicate with His children by means other than only Scripture!
quote:
We speak to God in prayer however God does not speak to us audibly. Your use of "we" is gravely in error. Start a thread and see how many folks have clearly heard God speak to them over the years. I'd say you're missing out on a great blessing, jj, by restricting God's capabilities to your preconceived theology!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 1:53:09 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Please tell me you do not hear the audible voice of God speaking to you. And what is wrong with that, jj? I would seriously question the spiritual maturity of anyone who denies that God can communicate with His children by means other than only Scripture!
quote:
We speak to God in prayer however God does not speak to us audibly. Your use of "we" is gravely in error. Start a thread and see how many folks have clearly heard God speak to them over the years. I'd say you're missing out on a great blessing, jj, by restricting God's capabilities to your preconceived theology!
You know drmark, it must really be sad to try to serve a living God that one does not think can or will speak to them.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 1:55:34 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Please tell me you do not hear the audible voice of God speaking to you. Well - I could tell you that.
But I am sure you do not want me to lie.
I did hear HIM audibly. Once. I have been married almost 32 years as a result. Usually He speaks that "still small voice" that needs a lot of discernment. But the point is - He still personallly speaks to any who will listen.
Why do you think the author of Hebrews quotes Psalm 95:
"Today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts...."
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 2:58:11 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Please tell me you do not hear the audible voice of God speaking to you. And what is wrong with that, jj? I would seriously question the spiritual maturity of anyone who denies that God can communicate with His children by means other than only Scripture!
quote:
We speak to God in prayer however God does not speak to us audibly. Your use of "we" is gravely in error. Start a thread and see how many folks have clearly heard God speak to them over the years. I'd say you're missing out on a great blessing, jj, by restricting God's capabilities to your preconceived theology!
You know drmark, it must really be sad to try to serve a living God that one does not think can or will speak to them.
Thanks
RC
Did I say that God cannot or will not speak to me?
I never said that. You missed my point.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2009 3:13:47 PM
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drmark
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jj, are you even reading what you're posting:
quote:
God does not speak to us audibly. quote:
Did I say that God cannot or will not speak to me?
I never said that. There it is in black and white!
_____________________________
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