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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 10:01:10 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 635
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Okay, but none of those verses appear to be saying anything about the gift of tongues being the sole indication of baptism of the Holy Spirit.
So I must ask... why tongues? Why not prophecy, or teaching, or any of the other spiritual gifts that are listed?
Why would you short-change, or look down, or force fakery, on someone who got prophecy or teaching as their spiritual gift instead of tongues?
I have no issue with tongues being a gift of the Spirit and an indicator that a person has been baptised by the Holy Spirit. I DO have a problem when people claim that it's the ONLY indicator and that ALL people should have to show that gift.
I never said that it was the only indicator. Now if tongues are so unimportant as many want to say then why did the Holy Spirit manifest itself as tongues of fire in Acts 2? Also in Acts 10 the reason Peter and the other Jews knew that the Gentiles had been baptized with the Holy Spirit was because they heard them speak in tongues.
Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 10:44-46
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
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To address the new posts:
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Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
If the groanings "cannot be uttered" then they're not tongues, because they, um, can't be uttered. Tongues are most definitely uttered.
The word is also translated as "not expressed in words". The only other place the word is used is Acts 7:34 where God says He has heard their "groaning". Now how does one hear something if there is no sound made as you are trying to claim?
Acts 7:34
I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
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1 Corinthians 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
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This is just to show that we have control over praying in the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit does not force someone to pray against their will.
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Jude 20-21
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
I believe I pray in the Holy Ghost pretty often. Thing is... I pray in the Holy Ghost in English, that being the language I know and can best use to express that which the Spirit is laying on my heart. There's no indication there that praying in the Holy Ghost must be done in tongues.
That is a rather convienient answer but is not consistant with Paul's teachings.
Paul makes a definite distinction between praying in the Spirit and praying with the understanding.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 10:50:09 AM
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awaken
Posts: 90
Joined: 1/11/2008
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I do not know if you can recomend a link or book but for anyone that is speaking in tongues or those that just want to know more. There is a book you can down load -it is free. It has helped me alot.
The Walk of the Spirit-The Walk of Power
http--www.daveroberson.org-images_drm-WOSWOP_PFV.pdf.url
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 11:26:24 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
I never said that it was the only indicator. Now if tongues are so unimportant as many want to say then why did the Holy Spirit manifest itself as tongues of fire in Acts 2? Also in Acts 10 the reason Peter and the other Jews knew that the Gentiles had been baptized with the Holy Spirit was because they heard them speak in tongues.
I never said tongues are completely unimportant, I said they aren't exclusive indicators. Paul makes this extremely clear in 1 Corinthians 12, when he says "8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." And later in the same chapter, he says "28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts."
And, in chapter 14, Paul even kind of downplays tongues, saying that he would rather people be prophets or teachers because it's more helpful.
"Tongues of fire" is a description of what the flames looked like... they looked like cloven tongues flickering over the believers' heads. The appearance of the flames had nothing to do with "speaking in tongues". Now, they did start to speak in tongues, but those are specified as "other tongues", which is a miracle specifically for spreading of the Gospel as they were human tongues that those gathered in Jerusalem for the Passover could understand (and marvelled about).
In Acts 10, they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. How would they have known they were praising God if there had been no translation?
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If the groanings "cannot be uttered" then they're not tongues, because they, um, can't be uttered. Tongues are most definitely uttered.
The word is also translated as "not expressed in words". The only other place the word is used is Acts 7:34 where God says He has heard their "groaning". Now how does one hear something if there is no sound made as you are trying to claim?
Same deal though, groanings are not a language and therefore are not tongues.
My little girl bonked her head on my desk a few minutes ago, and allowed her displeasure to be expressed in a siren-like wail that could have waked the dead. Now, I assure you that she wasn't speaking any sort of language, but she certainly got her point across, that she was in pain, and there was definitely a sound made. That's what a "groan" is also... a wordless expression of deep pain, which God can certainly hear, whether we groan out loud, or we groan in the anguish of our own minds. Or did you think that God cannot hear our thoughts?
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This is just to show that we have control over praying in the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit does not force someone to pray against their will.
Of course we do. But it doesn't state tongues are required.
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That is a rather convienient answer but is not consistant with Paul's teachings.
Paul makes a definite distinction between praying in the Spirit and praying with the understanding.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Have you read the entirety of that chapter? Paul spends the chapter talking about how he would rather people had gifts OTHER than tongues, because tongues is semi-useless for the edification of the church. Take 1 Cor 14:19 "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults."
In fact, in that very chapter, Paul says that if you do not have an interpeter available, you should not speak in tongues in the church: 1 Corinthians 14:27 "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God."
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 12:05:52 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 224
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Does it make sense to you to have a born again spirit that's mute? The prayer tongue of your spirit is for everyone...just like salvation. But it's up to you to believe it...just like salvation. If you don't believe you will not receive.
The tongue gift that isn't for "every believer" is the tongue that comes from The Holy Spirit...not your spirit. That's two different tongues and two different Sspirits, it's as simple as that.
Hmm. Could you provide verses that support that claim?
I'm not sure just what "claim" you're refering to Zhi...does the following help?
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
Webster's: MUTE 1. not speaking; voluntarily silent.
post 2274 quote:
So I must ask... why tongues? Why not prophecy, or teaching, or any of the other spiritual gifts that are listed?
I don't believe teaching is a spiritual gift, according to scripture. The Spiritual gifts (Gr. charisma) from the Sspirit (His/ours) are supernatural manifestations of power opposed to God given talent gifts (Gr. doma). The gift of teaching isn't a supernatural charisma/gift it is a doma/gift.
The doma gifts are callings of God to use your God given talents for him in positions of authority (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors, teachers). Prophesy is another question though. I believe it is a charisma gift...one that those who aren't Spirit baptized fake all the time by giving a 'non supernatural power' definition to the word.
EPH 4:8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts/doma to men." EPH 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
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I believe I pray in the Holy Ghost pretty often. Thing is... I pray in the Holy Ghost in English, that being the language I know and can best use to express that which the Spirit is laying on my heart. There's no indication there that praying in the Holy Ghost must be done in tongues.
I understand that's what you believe, but what scripture can you base that belief upon? I don't know of one.
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If the groanings "cannot be uttered" then they're not tongues, because they, um, can't be uttered. Tongues are most definitely uttered.
You've answered your own question if you'll think about what you just said. The Holy Spirit isn't praying through you when you say 'you're praying in The Holy Ghost. Because His groanings "cannot be uttered" by you.
1CO 2:11 For what person knows a man's thoughts (soul) except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God (soul) except the Spirit of God.
When you pray in English you are praying with the soul...not with the spirit. And some of what you pray may honestly be The Spirit's will, but your heart and soul are both biased with sin, sickness, deceptions even as Jeremiah said.
JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? Who can understand it?...only your spirit and The Holy Spirit. That's why praying in your spirit is the best prayer you can make. It truly knows even your own mind's biased thoughts.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/5/2008 1:02:14 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 12:26:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I understand that's what you believe, but what scripture can you base that belief upon? I don't know of one.
How about the prayers of Paul recorded in Scripture? Heh, yes, they weren't in English, they were in Greek, but they were written down in the understood language of the day. Would you say the Apostle Paul did not pray in the Holy Spirit at those times?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 12:40:55 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
I'm not sure just what "claim" you're refering to Zhi...does the following help?
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
Webster's: MUTE 1. not speaking; voluntarily silent.
It says that you can pray in a tongue and be praying in the Spirit. It does NOT say that the ONLY way to pray in the Spirit is to pray in tongues.
Given that Paul states quite clearly that not all people have the gift of tongues, it follows that praying in tongues cannot be the only way to pray in the Spirit, because if it were, the people who do not have the gift of tongues would be incapable of praying in the spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
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I don't believe teaching is a spiritual gift, according to scripture. The Spiritual gifts (Gr. charisma) from the Sspirit (His/ours) are supernatural manifestations of power opposed to God given talent gifts (Gr. dora). The gift of teaching isn't a supernatural charisma/gift it is a doma/gift.
The doma gifts are callings of God to use your God given talents for him in positions of authority (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors, teachers). Prophesy is another question though. I believe it is a charisma gift...one that those who aren't Spirit baptized fake all the time by giving a 'non supernatural power' definition to the word.
EPH 4:8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts/doma to men." EPH 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
Teaching is the manifestation of the gift of knowledge. It's part of the list in 1 Corinthians 12:7 "7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines."
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I understand that's what you believe, but what scripture can you base that belief upon? I don't know of one.
You need to demonstrate that the references to praying in the Spirit REQUIRE you to be speaking other tongues to do so. There is no such indication.
Take for instance Ephesians 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints."
This is obviously an example of praying in the spirit while knowing what you are saying (specifically requests, prayers for the saints, etc). In fact, Paul goes on to list personal requests that they should be praying for him with, also in the Spirit. There is no suggestion there that tongues are involved. In fact, there is no mention whatsoever of tongues in that entire chapter.
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If the groanings "cannot be uttered" then they're not tongues, because they, um, can't be uttered. Tongues are most definitely uttered.
You've answered your own question if you'll think about what you just said. The Holy Spirit isn't praying through you when you say 'you're praying in The Holy Ghost. Because His groanings "cannot be uttered" by you.
Again, a groan is not a language. It's an occassionally audible expression of inward anguish, sure, but it's not a language. Unless you think the heavenly language is a repeated series of "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH" and the like then that's not really supporting your point there.
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1CO 2:11 For what person knows a man's thoughts (soul) except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God (soul) except the Spirit of God.
This also does not say that a different language is required.
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When you pray in English you are praying with the soul...not with the spirit. And some of what you pray may honestly be The Spirit's will, but your heart and soul are both biased with sin, sickness, deceptions even as Jeremiah said.
JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? Who can understand it?...only your spirit and The Holy Spirit. That's why praying in your spirit is the best prayer you can make. It truly knows even your own mind's biased thoughts.
Why can't my spirit know it in english, then? Do you think that God, in the form of the Holy Spirit, is incapable of speaking English? That's kind of odd, really.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 8:32:07 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 224
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Zhi,
quote:
It says that you can pray in a tongue and be praying in the Spirit. It does NOT say that the ONLY way to pray in the Spirit is to pray in tongues.
No, it is saying you can pray either in the spirit (yours not The Spirit) or you can pray soulishly in English. You can pray in tongues and in English. You can sing in tongues or in English (spiritual songs Eph 5:18). Again two different tongues from two different sources... one being your mind/soul and two being your spirit. One is an earthly language of men, which others will understand, and the other is a spiritual/angelic language of heaven "which no man understands".
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Given that Paul states quite clearly that not all people have the gift of tongues, it follows that praying in tongues cannot be the only way to pray in the Spirit, because if it were, the people who do not have the gift of tongues would be incapable of praying in the spirit.
You simply don't understand two different tongues and two different Sspirits. Bill has talked about it here, I have talked about it here recently and others have talked about it many times past in this thread...but you aren't allowing yourself to thinking outside of your doctrine...based upon the above posted POV.
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Teaching is the manifestation of the gift of knowledge. What can I say except I've based my POV upon scripture...where's yours? Teaching is a manifestation of nothing spiritual...unbelievers can do it better than believers in the same areas and fields.
Your above statement concerning 1Co 12:7-11 causes me to believe that you don't even know the definition of a true Spiritual gift IMO. What is it?
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You need to demonstrate that the references to praying in the Spirit REQUIRE you to be speaking other tongues to do so. There is no such indication.
Yes there is.
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (doesn't understand because it's spirit tongues).
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. (I will pray/sing in tongues and I will also pray/sing in English)16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? (If you bless with your spirit's tongue no one understands)
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Take for instance Ephesians 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." The explanation I gave above also gives understanding that you are wrong on here in Ephesians. But only if you are willingly seeking for truth and not just seeking to defend where you are.
The rest of your post is truly too poorly defended to even address IMO. Because if you honestly believe what you wrote, then I honestly feel it's a waste of time on my part to try to convince you otherwise.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 9:02:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (doesn't understand because it's spirit tongues).
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. (I will pray/sing in tongues and I will also pray/sing in English)16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? (If you bless with your spirit's tongue no one understands)
That's one possible interpretation. However, it is certainly not the only one. It all depends on how one takes the "de" in the text (translated most often as "but"). If it is contrastive, then you'd be right - Paul is separating praying in the spirit and praying in the mind. However, it could also be taken connectively, which would mean Paul was saying that He would pray in the Spirit while praying with his mind - the two would be combined into one action.
Given the context of this passage, it seems unlikely that Paul would be advocating praying in a way that nobody understands. Consider verses 6-12, where Paul is clearly teaching against untranslated speech. Also verses 13 and 19. Clearly, Paul is not advocating a "Spirit prayer" of incomprehensible speech. So, at the very least, Paul is commanding that, if someone speaks in tongues, it must be translated. If it is not, he does not see any value in it.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 9:28:23 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 635
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (doesn't understand because it's spirit tongues).
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. (I will pray/sing in tongues and I will also pray/sing in English)16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? (If you bless with your spirit's tongue no one understands)
That's one possible interpretation. However, it is certainly not the only one. It all depends on how one takes the "de" in the text (translated most often as "but"). If it is contrastive, then you'd be right - Paul is separating praying in the spirit and praying in the mind. However, it could also be taken connectively, which would mean Paul was saying that He would pray in the Spirit while praying with his mind - the two would be combined into one action.
Given the context of this passage, it seems unlikely that Paul would be advocating praying in a way that nobody understands. Consider verses 6-12, where Paul is clearly teaching against untranslated speech. Also verses 13 and 19. Clearly, Paul is not advocating a "Spirit prayer" of incomprehensible speech. So, at the very least, Paul is commanding that, if someone speaks in tongues, it must be translated. If it is not, he does not see any value in it.
What you are saying here about it being "taken connectively" doesn't make sense in light of verse 14 where Paul is making a distinction between praying in tongues and praying with the mind or understanding.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 11:08:17 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
No, it is saying you can pray either in the spirit (yours not The Spirit) or you can pray soulishly in English. You can pray in tongues and in English. You can sing in tongues or in English (spiritual songs Eph 5:18). Again two different tongues from two different sources... one being your mind/soul and two being your spirit. One is an earthly language of men, which others will understand, and the other is a spiritual/angelic language of heaven "which no man understands".
I'm really not seeing that. The only distinction that appears to be made by the wording is whether or not your mind has a clue of what's going on. Since Ephesians clearly states that one can, and in fact is ordered by Paul to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests", one can definitely pray in the spirit while knowing what one is doing (making requests and specific prayers).
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You simply don't understand two different tongues and two different Sspirits. Bill has talked about it here, I have talked about it here recently and others have talked about it many times past in this thread...but you aren't allowing yourself to thinking outside of your doctrine...based upon the above posted POV.
Because the Scripture doesn't make that distinction when it comes to tongues. Paul does not say, when he's asking rather sarcastically whether or not everyone can speak in tongues, "oh, but everybody can pray in the heavenly tongue so let's be sure we all do that".
There's no need to get nasty. You aren't allowing yourself to think outside of your doctrine either, obviously.
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Teaching is the manifestation of the gift of knowledge.What can I say except I've based my POV upon scripture...where's yours? Teaching is a manifestation of nothing spiritual...unbelievers can do it better than believers in the same areas and fields.
So you're saying there's absolutely no working of the Spirit in wisdom and knowledge in teaching the things of God? I find that to be a rather terrifying idea.
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Your above statement concerning 1Co 12:7-11 causes me to believe that you don't even know the definition of a true Spiritual gift IMO. What is it?
A spiritual gift is a gift given us by the Holy Spirit when He indwells us. What did you think it was?
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Yes there is.
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (doesn't understand because it's spirit tongues).
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. (I will pray/sing in tongues and I will also pray/sing in English)16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? (If you bless with your spirit's tongue no one understands)
This does not indicate that everyone should have that gift. It's merely cautioning those who DO have that gift from spending all their time using that gift and not spending any time edifying other believers and reaching out to unbelievers in a way they can understand.
Pretty much the entirety of 1 Cor 14 is teaching people with the gift of tongues to control themselves and use them appropriately.
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Take for instance Ephesians 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." The explanation I gave above also gives understanding that you are wrong on here in Ephesians. But only if you are willingly seeking for truth and not just seeking to defend where you are.
Nope. You're going to have to address this verse directly, because there are no conjunctions, no commas, that you can use to claim that the known (prayers and requests) is not actually intersecting with what you claim is unknowable (praying in the Spirit).
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The rest of your post is truly too poorly defended to even address IMO. Because if you honestly believe what you wrote, then I honestly feel it's a waste of time on my part to try to convince you otherwise.
*sigh* If it's really so poorly defended, then it should be easy for you to address it. Kindly avoid creating cop-outs in the form of personal attacks in the future. Let's have a civilized discussion.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 11:12:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
What you are saying here about it being "taken connectively" doesn't make sense in light of verse 14 where Paul is making a distinction between praying in tongues and praying with the mind or understanding.
Sure it does. Paul is showing the difference between "just-Spirit praying", which was chaotic, incomprehensible, and wrong, and "Spirit-and-mind praying," which was understandable and good.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 1:27:52 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 224
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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MrFribbles,
If you use it conjunctively it really doesn't change the thought I presented. Look at Young's Literal Translation below which does exactly what you said.
YLT 1CO 14:15 What then is it? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing psalms with the spirit, and I will sing psalms also with the understanding;
As you can see it replaces 'but' with 'and' but grammatically had to add an 'also' to maintain the thought that the verse is talkng about two separate prayers...which I believe supports the position I presented.
Zhi,
quote:
*sigh* If it's really so poorly defended, then it should be easy for you to address it. Kindly avoid creating cop-outs in the form of personal attacks in the future. Let's have a civilized discussion.
Please let me apologize for the way that sounded, I didn't mean to be condesending. I was truly trying to express how far apart I felt we were and this is just too time consuming of a medium. Your post, which I was responding to was just too long. I really don't feel like I want to address all those little "jot and tittle" distractions if the big idea isn't grasped. I hope I worded that better this time. I am sorry. 
quote:
The only distinction that appears to be made by the wording is whether or not your mind has a clue of what's going on. Since Ephesians clearly states that one can, and in fact is ordered by Paul to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests", one can definitely pray in the spirit while knowing what one is doing (making requests and specific prayers).
I agree, but the only reason your mind 'is' unfruitful is because you're praying in a tongue that no man understands (including yourself) according to verse 2.
YLT 1CO 14:2 for he who is speaking in an {unknown} tongue - to men he doth not speak, but to God, for no one doth hearken, and in spirit he doth speak secrets;
Again I'm going to use the YLT which is a more correct translation and therefore more difficult to read in English. But the main thing I want you to note here is that 'spirit' isn't translated with a capital because it is talkng about a prayer tongue 'which no man undertands'. If this verse was talking about The Holy Spirit talking then it would be an understood language of man (like on the day of Pentecost). And if it wasn't an understood language of man, then the Spiritual Gift of interpretation would have to come into play that the body would understand and be edified.
The way you keep adding a capital S in your posts, still confirms to me that you appear to not understand two Sspirits and two tongues. Do you understand that point?
quote:
There's no need to get nasty. You aren't allowing yourself to think outside of your doctrine either, obviously. Still humbly agreeing...nasty is not good. You are right concerning 'doctrinal box thinking'. But the difficulty for many/all of 'us', is this: we were in your doctrinal box at one time and now we're not. You have not been where we are in understanding. And it is an understanding that is based upon a new experience which came about after a change in thinking which led to believing. I hope that sounds fair and not 'holier than thou'.
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So you're saying there's absolutely no working of the Spirit in wisdom and knowledge in teaching the things of God? I find that to be a rather terrifying idea. I am saying that the Gifts of the Spirit are supernatural manifestations of knowledge and wisdom. In other words things you had no possibility of knowing without supernatural intervention. And having been used in those type giftings I can attest that they aren't fearful...they are awsome.
quote:
A spiritual gift is a gift given us by the Holy Spirit when He indwells us. What did you think it was? A Spiritual gift is a manifestation of the Spirit in which He gives something to someone else and I am merely a vessel for Him to use in that gift. If you need a word of knowledge or wisdom or healing in your body...and The Spirit gives me supernatural knowledge to pass on to you or supernatural wisdom to apply to something I may not even know you're struggling with, or your body gets healed...then that is a gift of The Spirit to you. I never had the gift. The Spirit did have the gift and He gave it to you and all I am is a yielded vessel for His service. If I had the gift of healing....everyone would get healed. But the manifestations/giftings from The Spirit, are imparted "as He wills" and not as I/we will. No one has the gifts of chapter 12 IMO. They only have access to them from The Spirit as they are passed on to who they are given too.
And, as I've stated here before 'The Holy Spirit' doesn't indwell any one individually. The only body (singular) that He dwells in is the 'many membered' corporate body of Christ. But that's a whole other subject.
This has taken all morning on and off and is long enough, so I'm quitting.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/6/2008 1:38:43 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 2:19:44 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
I agree, but the only reason your mind 'is' unfruitful is because you're praying in a tongue that no man understands (including yourself) according to verse 2.
YLT 1CO 14:2 for he who is speaking in an {unknown} tongue - to men he doth not speak, but to God, for no one doth hearken, and in spirit he doth speak secrets;
Again I'm going to use the YLT which is a more correct translation and therefore more difficult to read in English. But the main thing I want you to note here is that 'spirit' isn't translated with a capital because it is talkng about a prayer tongue 'which no man undertands'. If this verse was talking about The Holy Spirit talking then it would be an understood language of man (like on the day of Pentecost). And if it wasn't an understood language of man, then the Spiritual Gift of interpretation would have to come into play that the body would understand and be edified.
The way you keep adding a capital S in your posts, still confirms to me that you appear to not understand two Sspirits and two tongues. Do you understand that point?
I understand the point you're trying to make, yes, but I don't think it's accurate. Paul doesn't appear to make any such distinction.
Let's look at the entire paragraph there.
1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
As you can see, "spiritual" in verse 1 is not capitalized either, so the lack of capitalization in 2 is not surprising. If you take the speaking in tongues to be only within your own spirit, and not affected in any way by the Spirit, then Paul would not compare it with prophecy, because I hope you would agree that prophecy is not something we can do within our own spirit on our own power either. Another key comes with the comparison as well... Paul says he would LIKE everyone to speak in tongues, but he would RATHER have you prophesy. Not ALSO have you prophesy. He also says that he who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues. Both of these verses indicate quite clearly that he does not expect a single person to do both, and, given a choice, he would rather people exhibit the spiritual gift of prophecy.
quote:
Still humbly agreeing...nasty is not good. You are right concerning 'doctrinal box thinking'. But the difficulty for many/all of 'us', is this: we were in your doctrinal box at one time and now we're not. You have not been where we are in understanding. And it is an understanding that is based upon a new experience which came about after a change in thinking which led to believing. I hope that sounds fair and not 'holier than thou'.
My husband spent much of his childhood in charismatic churches. He decided, in all honesty, that he does not have the gift of tongues. It had nothing to do with his surroundings, it had to do with his realization that it was simply not his spiritual gift. He has never honestly been able to manifest tongues, and he has always respected the Spirit too much to fake it, despite pressure from those around him. He is very passionate about the Lord, and he has other gifts, so I am sure it is not due to a lack of the Holy Spirit.
I've decided the same thing about myself.
I realize that the gift of tongues has often been despised. I hope that you do not think that I despise the gift of tongues. I really don't. I think it would be a great gift to have, I just honestly do not have it, and I refuse to fake it. If you have manifested it, then I am very glad for you that you have such a lovely spiritual gift, but I would hope that you would not think less of me for my lack of that spiritual gift. I assure you I have others.
quote:
I am saying that the Gifts of the Spirit are supernatural manifestations of knowledge and wisdom. In other words things you had no possibility of knowing without supernatural intervention. And having been used in those type giftings I can attest that they aren't fearful...they are awsome.
I personally have knowledge and wisdom as my spiritual gifts. I think they manifest in two ways: One is knowing things that I could not possibly know, one is understanding spiritual things "intuitively" that other people find dificult. The first part has only hit a few times in my life... knowing my great grandmother had died while away at summer camp, knowing that a woman in our church was dying, knowing that I needed to talk to a kid who was about to commit suicide and get him help, things like that. These are kind of scary when they hit, especially since the things I "just know" generally relate to death or suffering, and I can't tell you how I knew other than that I just did. The second part is more common, and is very helpful in teaching and contributing to Bible studies. It's by far the more pleasant.
Honestly I think we need the Holy Spirit to understand the things of God regardless. As it says in 1 Cor, "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15
quote:
A Spiritual gift is a manifestation of the Spirit in which He gives something to someone else and I am merely a vessel for Him to use in that gift. If you need a word of knowledge or wisdom or healing in your body...and The Spirit gives me supernatural knowledge to pass on to you or supernatural wisdom to apply to something I may not even know you're struggling with, or your body gets healed...then that is a gift of The Spirit to you. I never had the gift. The Spirit did have the gift and He gave it to you and all I am is a yielded vessel for His service. If I had the gift of healing....everyone would get healed. But the manifestations/giftings from The Spirit, are imparted "as He wills" and not as I/we will. No one has the gifts of chapter 12 IMO. They only have access to them from The Spirit as they are passed on to who they are given too.
And, as I've stated here before 'The Holy Spirit' doesn't indwell any one individually. The only body (singular) that He dwells in is the 'many membered' corporate body of Christ. But that's a whole other subject.
I am not sure where this comes from. Here's some verses:
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
1 Cor 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Otherwise, yes, obviously, we cannot perform any spiritual gift without the Spirit choosing to give us the power to do so. Even Jesus Himself couldn't.
Incidentally I was discussing this with my husband last night, to see what he thought. His comment was that if Jesus Himself prayed in the language of the time, and was never shown in the Scripture to be praying in tongues, and taught His disciples to pray in the language they knew, then it must not be something we should all be required to do.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 5:10:05 PM
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bluegravel
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Incidentally I was discussing this with my husband last night, to see what he thought. His comment was that if Jesus Himself prayed in the language of the time, and was never shown in the Scripture to be praying in tongues, and taught His disciples to pray in the language they knew, then it must not be something we should all be required to do.
Why WOULD Jesus pray in tongues? That doesn't even make sense - as the Son of God, why would he need to?
Tongues, only occured AFTER Jesus returned to His Father. Jesus said that he had to go (back to His Father) and that He would send the Holy Spirit. A little attention to chronological detail would serve to give better understanding as to why Jesus did not speak in tongues - other than that he was not exactly quite human 
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 6:06:18 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 224
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Zhi,
For one thing you need a better translation. The word "gifts" isn't even in the Greek in verse 1 and the word "spiritual" isn't singular it's plural. So it isn't talking about The Holy Spirit it is talking about people who are truly spiritual.
quote:
Paul says he would LIKE everyone to speak in tongues, but he would RATHER have you prophesy. Look in the Greek,
Your translation is made by someone who doesn't speak in tongues...think about that. It influences how they translate the Greek. The word LIKE that you mention is the word thelo: 2309 thelo: to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse;
not a "WISH" from the definition of 'Oh gee I wish you could'...it is a determined 'I wish you would!'. Look how Paul used it in 12:1.
1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would/thelo not have you ignorant.
Again read the following and see that this isn't some hopeful wish, it's I just wish you'd do it.
YLT 1CO 14:5 and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification.
quote:
Both of these verses indicate quite clearly that he does not expect a single person to do both, and, given a choice, he would rather people exhibit the spiritual gift of prophecy. So to finish the rest of your quoted thought. Paul does want you to do both but edifying yourself only isn't accomplishing as much as edifying the whole body. So he isn't saying either/or he is saying both/and.
quote:
It had nothing to do with his surroundings, it had to do with his realization that it was simply not his spiritual gift. I appreciate your husband coming to a truthful realization and unwillingness to fake it. But that doesn't help me change my opinion concerning prayer tongues for all...including you Zhi. 
quote:
I would hope that you would not think less of me for my lack of that spiritual gift. I truly am not here to think less of anyone. I am here to stir them up to receive more than they have.
quote:
I personally have knowledge and wisdom as my spiritual gifts. I think they manifest in two ways: One is knowing things that I could not possibly know, one is understanding spiritual things "intuitively" that other people find dificult. The first part has only hit a few times in my life... knowing my great grandmother had died while away at summer camp, knowing that a woman in our church was dying, knowing that I needed to talk to a kid who was about to commit suicide and get him help, things like that. These are kind of scary when they hit, especially since the things I "just know" generally relate to death or suffering, and I can't tell you how I knew other than that I just did. The second part is more common, and is very helpful in teaching and contributing to Bible studies. It's by far the more pleasant.
Here I have some difficulty because unbelievers have these same "gifts". Watchman Nee calls them the 'latent powers of the soul', which man had before the fall.
I'm just going to briefly touch on each of the verses you've given and give a brief counter.
John 14:16 Doesn't say The Holy Spirit it says Counselor
Romans 8:9 If spirit wasn't capitalized it again would just mean the spirit we receive by virtue of the rebirth into the family of God. And it's only capitalized by the doctrinal view of the translators.
1 Cor 6:19-20 The 'you' in this verse is plural in the Greek and is a collective noun, and again stands for the many membered singular body of Christ.
Gotta quit, the wife wants to go home and we're sharing vehicles.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 7:45:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
If you use it conjunctively it really doesn't change the thought I presented. Look at Young's Literal Translation below which does exactly what you said.
YLT 1CO 14:15 What then is it? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing psalms with the spirit, and I will sing psalms also with the understanding;
As you can see it replaces 'but' with 'and' but grammatically had to add an 'also' to maintain the thought that the verse is talkng about two separate prayers...which I believe supports the position I presented.
I disagree. It could be presenting two elements of one prayer. Paul is saying instead of praying using only the Spirit, he will pray with both the mind and the Spirit. One single prayer, using the elements of both the mind and the Spirit.
Also, I must disagree with your take on thelo.
quote:
Your translation is made by someone who doesn't speak in tongues...think about that. It influences how they translate the Greek. The word LIKE that you mention is the word thelo: 2309 thelo: to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse;
not a "WISH" from the definition of 'Oh gee I wish you could'...it is a determined 'I wish you would!'. Look how Paul used it in 12:1.
First, on a very basic level - you say that if someone who doesn't speak in tongues translates Scripture, it will bias their translation. This is certainly possible, but the opposite would also be true - if someone adheres to tongues-speaking as you describe, their translation could also be biased. But that's another topic, heh.
Now, thelo here is not an imperative. To take it as a command ignores the mood of the Greek. I don't have my handy-dandy Wallace with me, so I can't comment on what type of indicative is being used here, but there's no automatic reason that I can see to take thelo as either way between the way you took it, or the way that Zhi took it (and the way many major translations take it).
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 9:15:05 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
For one thing you need a better translation. The word "gifts" isn't even in the Greek in verse 1 and the word "spiritual" isn't singular it's plural. So it isn't talking about The Holy Spirit it is talking about people who are truly spiritual.
Again, why would he talk about tongues compared to prophecy if he weren't referring to both in the spiritual gift form. Again, do you think prophecy can be done on our own power?
quote:
Look in the Greek,
Your translation is made by someone who doesn't speak in tongues...think about that. It influences how they translate the Greek. The word LIKE that you mention is the word thelo: 2309 thelo: to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse;
not a "WISH" from the definition of 'Oh gee I wish you could'...it is a determined 'I wish you would!'. Look how Paul used it in 12:1.
1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would/thelo not have you ignorant.
Again read the following and see that this isn't some hopeful wish, it's I just wish you'd do it.
YLT 1CO 14:5 and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification.
That's an unfair assertion. Thelo can mean "to determine or resolve", but it can also mean "to wish or desire". The latter makes more sense, as Paul could not resolve other people to have the gift of tongues... instead, he desires or wishes others to have the gift. And again, the important part is that he's making a comparison... he doesn't expect anyone to do both, and as much as he would desire them to have the gift of tongues, he would rather they have the gift of prophecy.
quote:
Both of these verses indicate quite clearly that he does not expect a single person to do both, and, given a choice, he would rather people exhibit the spiritual gift of prophecy. So to finish the rest of your quoted thought. Paul does want you to do both but edifying yourself only isn't accomplishing as much as edifying the whole body. So he isn't saying either/or he is saying both/and.
So you're willing to say both/and here but not both/and when it comes to praying in the mind and the spirit? I think you're nitpicking a bit here.
quote:
I appreciate your husband coming to a truthful realization and unwillingness to fake it. But that doesn't help me change my opinion concerning prayer tongues for all...including you Zhi.
I suppose I must ask yet again, then, for Scripture stating that all must have a prayer tongue that they don't understand.
quote:
I truly am not here to think less of anyone. I am here to stir them up to receive more than they have.
And if, even after soul searching, earnest prayer, and beseeching of the Spirit, they still don't receive what you think they should have? What then?
My husband isn't lacking in the gift of tongues for any lack of trying and spiritual anguish.
quote:
Here I have some difficulty because unbelievers have these same "gifts". Watchman Nee calls them the 'latent powers of the soul', which man had before the fall.
Well, I guess you should have a problem with tongues too, then. There are nonbelievers who have also practiced glossolalia (speaking in tongues). Take the Oracle at Delphi, for instance, who would speak in unknown tongues while "under the influence" of Apollo. Also, shamanists, spiritists, and pagans practice glossolalia. So do practicioners of Haitian voodooism and many Hindu gurus and Sufi fakirs (magicians).
quote:
John 14:16 Doesn't say The Holy Spirit it says Counselor
Which is who, then?
quote:
Romans 8:9 If spirit wasn't capitalized it again would just mean the spirit we receive by virtue of the rebirth into the family of God. And it's only capitalized by the doctrinal view of the translators.
It's capitalized in the YLT you like so much, or at least the copy I have. And it says the "Spirit of God". Not my spirit. Are we going to keep switching translations every time you don't like what the one you just picked says, or can we settle on one?
quote:
1 Cor 6:19-20 The 'you' in this verse is plural in the Greek and is a collective noun, and again stands for the many membered singular body of Christ.
Okay, but it's pretty obvious that he's talking about them as individual parts of a collective whole. Let's look at more of the passage, in YLT.
1 Cor 6: 15Have ye not known that your bodies are members of Christ? having taken, then, the members of the Christ, shall I make [them] members of an harlot? let it be not!
16have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.'
17And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;
18flee the whoredom; every sin -- whatever a man may commit -- is without the body, and he who is committing whoredom, against his own body doth sin.
19Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own,
20for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
Surely you're not expecting the entire "body" of believers to be collectively sleeping with a single harlot here? And again, in verse 20, there's a lower-case "spirit", so unless you think that the body of believers has a collective spirit which is not the Holy Spirit, then it's talking to individuals.
quote:
Gotta quit, the wife wants to go home and we're sharing vehicles.
I feel your pain. Hubby took a new job in which he doesn't get a work truck for once, so until we get a second vehicle, I'm walking the mile to the grocery store 3 times a week (fortunately I work from home). Granted it's good exercise and the baby enjoys it.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 6/6/2008 9:27:49 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/7/2008 9:03:44 AM
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bluegravel
Posts: 50
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Incidentally I was discussing this with my husband last night, to see what he thought. His comment was that if Jesus Himself prayed in the language of the time, and was never shown in the Scripture to be praying in tongues, and taught His disciples to pray in the language they knew, then it must not be something we should all be required to do.
I answered you here - ???????? Doesn't matter? Post 2290
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/7/2008 3:03:11 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 224
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Again, why would he talk about tongues compared to prophecy if he weren't referring to both in the spiritual gift form. Again, do you think prophecy can be done on our own power?
Why do you say "again" twice, since you never answered my question concerning your definition of prophecy to begin with? Yes, I think he is talking about both of them in the spiritual gift form. And No, I don't believe supernatural 'Holy Spirit gifted prophecy' is done in your own power. That's why it's so difficult trying to continue discussing this with you Zhi. You aren't even catching what I'm saying when we're in agreement...let alone understanding my rebuttals when we aren't, and it's just not fruitful to spend more time going nowhere.
We have a saying: 'A vision needs to be caught and not taught.' You aren't catching much and I can only assume two things. One, God isn't revealing to you what I believe He revealed to me, or two, He's trying but you aren't teachable. Now I admit you would add three...I'm wrong which is possible. But the point is, if one of the three is the true, then what's the point of you/me going on here?
Your very next point below is a perfect example of what I'm saying above. You are taking the very rebute that I make, to your point of view, and are trying to make it confirm your POV without even dealing with the fact that I presented, defending my POV. Really, what's the use here?
quote:
DR
1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would/thelo not have you ignorant.
Again read the following and see that this isn't some hopeful wish, it's I just wish you'd do it.
YLT 1CO 14:5 and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification.
quote:
Zhi
That's an unfair assertion. Thelo can mean "to determine or resolve", but it can also mean "to wish or desire". Duh? Isn't that exactly what I just said above in the YLT quote of 14:5? Only that translation uses the word wish in the grammatical context that is correct. This isn'at a 'I wish you could...it's a I wish you would'. It is a determined and resolved wish you would. But, the question of, will all?, is no, because any who have attitudes and beliefs and indoctrinations against it will not allow you to get it.
quote:
That's an unfair assertion. Thelo can mean "to determine or resolve", but it can also mean "to wish or desire". The latter makes more sense, as Paul could not resolve other people to have the gift of tongues... instead, he desires or wishes others to have the gift.
quote:
he would rather they have the gift of prophecy.
Back to your 'unbeliving interpretation' of that word's definition. Do you study more than one translation? I have 6 on my computer bible program that I compare (And I don't, as you intimated, worship YLT either...there isn't a perfect translation IMO). Do you know that the word 'rather' doesn't mean 'this instead of that'? It means 'this in addition to that'. Look at the same Greek word in other translations.
RSV, NIV, NAS all say especially. This agrees with the Greek interpretation of: 3123 mallon: more [in a greater degree]. More and in a greater degree doesn't mean you need to prophesy since you can't speak in tongues. It means if you have the 'lesser' spiritual gift (which edifies you) then you ought to use the 'greater' too, which benefits more people.
[YLT] 1CO 14:1 Pursue the love, and seek earnestly the spiritual things, and rather that ye may prophecy, This isn't saying either/or because prophesy falls under the "spiritual things" catagorization.
quote:
I suppose I must ask yet again, then, for Scripture stating that all must have a prayer tongue that they don't understand. It's never been a 'must have' gift. It's alway been an 'it's available to all' gift, just like 'the salvation' which all don't receive.
If you want scripture then you are going to have to read with eye's open spiritually. It's not black and white here but it is definitely implied.
ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, All filled and all spoke. Not a litmus but definitely a precedent.
ACT 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of/from the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Previous precedent repeated. What gift was poured out FROM The Holy Ghost? The same one which ALL the Jews had received in Act 2:8 above. The gift received was tongues, and I've posted on this thread before where it was their spirit tongues first and Holy Spirit tongues second.
1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, I've heard the 'hyperbole' argument before so don't go there. Paul isn't stupid enough to present and impossible situation to prove the truth. He knows it is possible that the whole church speak in tongues. I know it never happens today...but not, because of unavailability IMO.
EPH 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs... Who is the above directive being made to? The Ephesian tongue talkers...or the whole Ephesian church? And what is he telling this church to do?...adress one another with spiritual songs. What are spiritual songs? 1Co 14:14,15 has already told us...it's singing in tongues.
EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, Again, he's telling the whole church to pray in spirit (translators added the definite article and capitalized S wrongly). And yes the list also includes English for us as well as prayers of supplication, petition ect. But praying in spirit is praying in tongues.
JUD 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Again translators added the definite article and capitalized the HG making this The Holy Spirit of God instead of your holy born again spirit. And praying in holy spirit...is praying in tongues. So, since I believe you too are a "beloved" Zhi, I believe this gift of tongues is for you too.
quote:
And if, even after soul searching, earnest prayer, and beseeching of the Spirit, they still don't receive what you think they should have? What then?
My husband isn't lacking in the gift of tongues for any lack of trying and spiritual anguish. This is indeed the heartbreaker for all of us who do have a prayer language. I have no answer because I don't know where his/your blockage lies. I simply have to believe that the fault is his/yours/ours somewhere, and not God's.
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quote:
John 14:16 Doesn't say The Holy Spirit it says Counselor
Which is who, then? How about the spirit of Jesus...the same spirit that Jesus had before he received The Holy Spirit at the baptism of John? Jesus didn't fulfill the law walking in the power of The Holy Spirit. He did it in the power of his holy human spirit. Which is the spirit he was born with, but we don't get 'in us' until after we're 'born again'. And it is that 'spirit which bears witness WITH The Holy Spirit' concerning sonship and the things of God.
Like I said earlier, the Holy Spirit in your body is whole other topic and I'm not going to go into it here. This, again is a post that is so long I wouldn't even want to read it. So I'm not going to try and debate this much more. If you ask questions that reveal willingness to receive and not just defend where you are at I would be more interested. But if not, I'm really not interested in flogging any more time. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/7/2008 3:21:09 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 8:20:23 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Why do you say "again" twice, since you never answered my question concerning your definition of prophecy to begin with? Yes, I think he is talking about both of them in the spiritual gift form. And No, I don't believe supernatural 'Holy Spirit gifted prophecy' is done in your own power. That's why it's so difficult trying to continue discussing this with you Zhi. You aren't even catching what I'm saying when we're in agreement...let alone understanding my rebuttals when we aren't, and it's just not fruitful to spend more time going nowhere.
Because you're missing the point here. Paul is making a comparison between prophecy and tongues. You're insisting the tongues in question is something other than the Spiritual gift of tongues. If that's so, it would make no sense to compare the two, since one would be a gift of the Spirit and the other would be a "just your own spirit" thing. It would be apples and oranges. The mere fact that Paul considers them able to be compared indicates that it's two different gifts of the Spirit being looked at here: tongues, and prophecy.
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We have a saying: 'A vision needs to be caught and not taught.' You aren't catching much and I can only assume two things. One, God isn't revealing to you what I believe He revealed to me, or two, He's trying but you aren't teachable. Now I admit you would add three...I'm wrong which is possible. But the point is, if one of the three is the true, then what's the point of you/me going on here?
Well, I could say the same thing about you, frankly, which makes me wonder why you would be upset about it. I'm not "catching" what you're saying because the scripture is simply not saying what you're claiming it's saying, and in several cases the scripture is saying the opposite. So, basically you're asking me whether I'm going to go with what Paul said under the direct inspiration of God, or if I'm going to go with what you say, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to pick Paul. No offense.
Visions are only useful if they are supported by Scripture.
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1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would/thelo not have you ignorant.
Again read the following and see that this isn't some hopeful wish, it's I just wish you'd do it.
YLT 1CO 14:5 and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification.
People way better at Greek than me have already pointed out that it simply does not say that. I myself have pointed out that in that very verse there is no expectation that someone would do both. I have also pointed out that Paul himself said in 1 Cor 12 that not all have all the gifts, tongues included.
1Cor 12:28And some, indeed, did God set in the assembly, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, afterwards powers, afterwards gifts of healings, helpings, governings, divers kinds of tongues;
29[are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all powers?
30have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you:
quote:
Duh? Isn't that exactly what I just said above in the YLT quote of 14:5? Only that translation uses the word wish in the grammatical context that is correct. This isn'at a 'I wish you could...it's a I wish you would'. It is a determined and resolved wish you would. But, the question of, will all?, is no, because any who have attitudes and beliefs and indoctrinations against it will not allow you to get it.
If Paul expected everyone to speak in tongues, then why did he ask "do all speak with tongues?" in 1Cor 12:30? Wouldn't that entirely defeat his previous point?
Out of curiosity, do you actually read Greek or are you just repeating something you've heard from someone else?
quote:
Back to your 'unbeliving interpretation' of that word's definition. Do you study more than one translation? I have 6 on my computer bible program that I compare (And I don't, as you intimated, worship YLT either...there isn't a perfect translation IMO). Do you know that the word 'rather' doesn't mean 'this instead of that'? It means 'this in addition to that'. Look at the same Greek word in other translations.
RSV, NIV, NAS all say especially. This agrees with the Greek interpretation of: 3123 mallon: more [in a greater degree]. More and in a greater degree doesn't mean you need to prophesy since you can't speak in tongues. It means if you have the 'lesser' spiritual gift (which edifies you) then you ought to use the 'greater' too, which benefits more people.
You really appear to be butchering the sentence now. To reiterate the verse in question, "5and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification."
So, what does "more" apply to? It applies to the verb "wish". Paul wishes people to have the gift of speaking in tongues. But, Paul wishes MORE that people may prophecy. Why? Because the gift of prophecy is better because it edifies the church.
Which puts us back again to 1 Cor 12, where Paul is asking a series of questions pointing out that all people don't have all gifts, tongues being in that list. Or do you think that all people have all the spiritual gifts and he's asking a rhetorical question pointing out that all do?
You've already stated that you do not have the gift of healing. Does that mean your faith is incomplete, or is it only tongues that you insist that all must manifest?
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It's never been a 'must have' gift. It's alway been an 'it's available to all' gift, just like 'the salvation' which all don't receive.
If you want scripture then you are going to have to read with eye's open spiritually. It's not black and white here but it is definitely implied.
But Paul explicity says it's not. "[are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all powers? have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" Are you suggesting the answer to Paul's questions here are "yes"?
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ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, All filled and all spoke. Not a litmus but definitely a precedent.
Yes, immediately after they all had tongues of fire on their heads. Seen that lately? Maybe we're all in trouble, Holy Spirit wise. Furthermore, these were not "unknown" tongues, as is shown if you read more.
Acts 2:3and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them,
4and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.
5And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
6and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,
7and they were all amazed, and did wonder, saying one unto another, `Lo, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8and how do we hear, each in our proper dialect, in which we were born?
quote:
ACT 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of/from the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Previous precedent repeated. What gift was poured out FROM The Holy Ghost? The same one which ALL the Jews had received in Act 2:8 above. The gift received was tongues, and I've posted on this thread before where it was their spirit tongues first and Holy Spirit tongues second.
Same deal. I am not seeing spirit tongues, I am seeing a gift of the Holy Spirit for the spreading of the Gospel.
quote:
1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, I've heard the 'hyperbole' argument before so don't go there. Paul isn't stupid enough to present and impossible situation to prove the truth. He knows it is possible that the whole church speak in tongues. I know it never happens today...but not, because of unavailability IMO.
1CO 14:24and if all may prophecy, and any one may come in, an unbeliever or unlearned, he is convicted by all, he is discerned by all,
So it follows that if you think that that verse insists that all must speak tongues, then you must also believe that all must prophesy, as the following verse says basically the same thing about prophecy.
This also is yet another indicator that Paul is talking about a gift of the Spirit, not a "something my spirit does". We have already agreed that prophecy can't happen as "something my spirit does", so when the two are again compared and parallelled, then it follows that the only reason Paul would consider them appropriate to be compared and paralleled would be if they were both in the same context, that of being a Spiritual gift.
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EPH 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs... Who is the above directive being made to? The Ephesian tongue talkers...or the whole Ephesian church? And what is he telling this church to do?...adress one another with spiritual songs. What are spiritual songs? 1Co 14:14,15 has already told us...it's singing in tongues.
No, it has not. As has been pointed out, you can take those conjunctively... singing both spiritually and with your mind, instead of just singing unfruitfully.
quote:
EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, Again, he's telling the whole church to pray in spirit (translators added the definite article and capitalized S wrongly). And yes the list also includes English for us as well as prayers of supplication, petition ect. But praying in spirit is praying in tongues.
There is no indication anywhere in scripture that praying in spirit must be done in tongues. Can it be? Sure. Must it be? No. You're insisting that everywhere the word "pray" and "spirit" occur in the general vicinity of each other it involves tongues, but that's simply not the way that any of those passages have been understood throughout the ages.
quote:
JUD 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Again translators added the definite article and capitalized the HG making this The Holy Spirit of God instead of your holy born again spirit. And praying in holy spirit...is praying in tongues. So, since I believe you too are a "beloved" Zhi, I believe this gift of tongues is for you too.
You claim that, but I don't believe it. I believe you can pray in the Spirit (at His leading) in your own language. There is absolutely no mention of tongues in that passage.
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This is indeed the heartbreaker for all of us who do have a prayer language. I have no answer because I don't know where his/your blockage lies. I simply have to believe that the fault is his/yours/ours somewhere, and not God's.
And I simply have to believe that as the Scripture says, not everyone has the gift of tongues.
quote:
John 14:16 Doesn't say The Holy Spirit it says Counselor
Which is who, then? How about the spirit of Jesus...the same spirit that Jesus had before he received The Holy Spirit at the baptism of John? Jesus didn't fulfill the law walking in the power of The Holy Spirit. He did it in the power of his holy human spirit. Which is the spirit he was born with, but we don't get 'in us' until after we're 'born again'. And it is that 'spirit which bears witness WITH The Holy Spirit' concerning sonship and the things of God.
Hmm. So now we have three spirits running around affecting us, our spirit, Jesus's spirit, and the Holy Spirit. This is getting really complicated, and doesn't appear to have any Scriptural support whatsoever. John was born with the Holy Spirit "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb. (NASB) Luke 1:15". It stands to reason that Jesus was as well. Jesus is God Incarnate. He, the Father, and the Spirit are one. This is the very meaning of the Trinity. The first manifestation of this was LONG before Jesus's baptism, when he was teaching in the temple courts as a mere boy.
I find it interesting that you didn't address the fact that glossolalia (speaking in tongues) is manifested in non-believers after despising other gifts of the Spirit for that reason.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 6/8/2008 8:28:02 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 9:42:56 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1038
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Why WOULD Jesus pray in tongues? That doesn't even make sense - as the Son of God, why would he need to?
Because He was the example to the disciples regarding how to interact with God. He teaches them to pray, and does not use a spirit tongue (though if anyone knew a heavenly language it would be Him.) He doesn't even mention that they will eventually be needing to pray in a spirit tongue, which you would think, were it necessary, would be a very important part of the "Lord, teach us to pray" lesson.
quote:
Tongues, only occured AFTER Jesus returned to His Father. Jesus said that he had to go (back to His Father) and that He would send the Holy Spirit. A little attention to chronological detail would serve to give better understanding as to why Jesus did not speak in tongues - other than that he was not exactly quite human
Then unlike Him4all you agree that the Comforter is in fact the Holy Spirit?
Again, I have nothing against praying in tongues. I just have a problem with the idea that it is necessary for every Christian to do so, as I do not believe that all people are given the same gift by the Spirit, which is supported by Scripture.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 3:43:37 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 635
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
What you are saying here about it being "taken connectively" doesn't make sense in light of verse 14 where Paul is making a distinction between praying in tongues and praying with the mind or understanding.
Sure it does. Paul is showing the difference between "just-Spirit praying", which was chaotic, incomprehensible, and wrong, and "Spirit-and-mind praying," which was understandable and good.
You are wrong. The context alone disproves your interpretation.
Also Paul does not say don't do it if there is no interpretation, he says do it alone with God.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 4:59:19 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 224
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Zhi,
I didn't even finish your 'toooo long' post. It's obvious it would do no good anyway IMO. So I'll just leave you with the same scripture that applies to both of us, "according to your faith be it done unto you."
quote:
So now we have three spirits running around affecting us, our spirit, Jesus's spirit, and the Holy Spirit. This is getting really complicated Which is why you too, should quit.
REV 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God
Bill,
quote:
Also Paul does not say don't do it if there is no interpretation, he says do it alone with God.
Actually it says let two or three speak in a tongue first! And then if there is no interpretation they are to speak to oneself and God.
Personally feel like there were two possibilities going on in this text. One: the people speaking out in a 'tongue' were either just speaking out of zeal in their own spirit's prayer tongue (which has no earthly translation). Two: would be if someone actually had the unction of the Spirit come upon them with The Spirit's gift of tongues which they 'faithfully' spoke...but the person receiving The Spirit's gift of interpretation, just doesn't have the faith to step out and give it. In that case the Spirit's gift of a tongue would be valid in the one giving it publically, even though there isn't a following interpretation.
Do you have another take?
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/9/2008 5:17:41 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 6:39:56 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
You are wrong. The context alone disproves your interpretation.
Also Paul does not say don't do it if there is no interpretation, he says do it alone with God.
Would you mind actually explaining how the context disproves my interpretation, instead of just making the claim?
Also, as Him4all points out, Paul is saying that if there is no interpreter, it should not be done publicly. Not to say that it can't be done in a church service, but if it is, it must not interfere with the service - that is, it must be quiet and controlled.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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